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Lip Man 1
10-05-2002, 10:49 AM
Ray Durham talks about his days with the White Sox to the Daily Southtown's Joe Cowley. The entire story can be found in the Saturday edition on line. Here is a small teaser.....

"This clubhouse is what our clubhouse was like in 2000. But last year and this year, it wasn't there anymore. It became so businesslike (under Williams). Guys can't enjoy it.

"You come in and you're just always doing something ... meetings, extra work, always something," Durham continued. "In 2000, we came in and basically did what we needed to in order to be ready for the game not because you had to do it. They want so much control over you over there (with the Sox)."

Lip

Maggliosfan09
10-05-2002, 10:51 AM
do u have a link? thanks

whitesoxwilkes
10-05-2002, 11:58 AM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/051sd1.htm

guillen4life13
10-05-2002, 12:42 PM
man i swear, next year every game i go to will have a poster. what will that poster read? one side will say:

"Kenny, get out of Chicago!"

other side will read:

"Jerry! Either show some desire to win, or get out of this town!"



seriously, can't we get a GOOD general manager? Schueler was a helluva lot better than this... why can't we get someone like the whatshisface the mariners have? billy beane type gms are so hard to come by, so i'm not gonna mention him, but someone who actually knows what talent is.

change the soxogram to "hopefully Kenny Williams is next..."

TornLabrum
10-05-2002, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
man i swear, next year every game i go to will have a poster. what will that poster read? one side will say:

"Kenny, get out of Chicago!"

other side will read:

"Jerry! Either show some desire to win, or get out of this town!"



seriously, can't we get a GOOD general manager? Schueler was a helluva lot better than this... why can't we get someone like the whatshisface the mariners have? billy beane type gms are so hard to come by, so i'm not gonna mention him, but someone who actually knows what talent is.

change the soxogram to "hopefully Kenny Williams is next..."

The reason we don't get someone like Billy Beane is simple. He won't take any crap from The Chairman, so he wouldn't even consider coming here.

duke of dorwood
10-05-2002, 09:34 PM
:reinsy

I'm loyal to my guys---as long as they say "YES SIR"

Iguana775
10-05-2002, 09:43 PM
there is really no point in having a GM.....jerry wont let them do anything without it benifiting him.

SI1020
10-06-2002, 09:23 AM
I read the link and although there are no surprises it still made my heart sink. It is really getting hard to keep the faith.

hold2dibber
10-07-2002, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Ray Durham talks about his days with the White Sox to the Daily Southtown's Joe Cowley. The entire story can be found in the Saturday edition on line. Here is a small teaser.....

"This clubhouse is what our clubhouse was like in 2000. But last year and this year, it wasn't there anymore. It became so businesslike (under Williams). Guys can't enjoy it.

"You come in and you're just always doing something ... meetings, extra work, always something," Durham continued. "In 2000, we came in and basically did what we needed to in order to be ready for the game not because you had to do it. They want so much control over you over there (with the Sox)."

Lip

I'm not sure what's so wrong about what Durham said. It's funny how when things go bad under a more "liberal" regime, everyone says, "We need a fire and brimstone guy who will light a fire under these guys and run the team like a drill sergeant." But when things go wrong under the drill sergeant, everybody says, "That guy is out of touch with the modern player. We need a lovey-dovey guy who can relate to players."

There have been teams that have won with the laid back style and there are teams that have won with the business-like approach. Just because Ray, apparently, didn't like the business-like approach, doesn't mean it can't or doesn't work.

Lip Man 1
10-07-2002, 12:21 PM
You have a point if the guy doing the "fire and brimstone" is the FIELD manager, not the GENERAL MANAGER.

A GM (and an owner) has absolutely NO BUSINESS being in the clubhouse at all.

Only one person can run the team...the field manager.

Remember the old saying, "to many cooks spoil the soup..."

And the Sox soup is rancid.

Lip

pudge
10-07-2002, 01:46 PM
It has to be encouraging that Williams cut loose the base coaches and Nardi and seems to be realizing he needs some professionalism to win. Too bad it's taken him a couple years to figure things out.

hold2dibber
10-07-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by pudge
It has to be encouraging that Williams cut loose the base coaches and Nardi and seems to be realizing he needs some professionalism to win. Too bad it's taken him a couple years to figure things out.

I'd wait until he names their replacements before coming to that conclusion.

sox_fan_forever
10-07-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'd wait until he names their replacements before coming to that conclusion.

I agree 100%

RichH55
10-08-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You have a point if the guy doing the "fire and brimstone" is the FIELD manager, not the GENERAL MANAGER.

A GM (and an owner) has absolutely NO BUSINESS being in the clubhouse at all.

Only one person can run the team...the field manager.

Remember the old saying, "to many cooks spoil the soup..."

And the Sox soup is rancid.

Lip


There is also a saying "Two Heads are better than One"....sayings arent exactly the best way to run a team.....and Im not sure on this one, but dont Beane and Bowden out on Cincy play a rather heavy hand in day to day operations? I doubt they yell like Reisndorf, but I dont think their field managers are the end-all, be-all when it comes to running the team either

guillen4life13
10-08-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You have a point if the guy doing the "fire and brimstone" is the FIELD manager, not the GENERAL MANAGER.

A GM (and an owner) has absolutely NO BUSINESS being in the clubhouse at all.

Only one person can run the team...the field manager.

Remember the old saying, "to many cooks spoil the soup..."

And the Sox soup is rancid.

Lip

yep.

I really have nothing against Jerry Manuel, and I think that, especially in 2003 (with all of the young players), if Jerry is ALLOWED to run the team, we might have much better results than those of the last two years. Really when you think about it, could it be possible that the "tinkering" was not really Jerry Manuel's doing in the first place? After reading these Joe Cowley articles, I am ever convinced that half the time, Jerry Manuel would set up a lineup... kw would see it, and would make Jerry change it. I'm also convinced that the statements Jerry made regarding the benching of Clayton, etc. were in fact what he would have wanted to do. Unfortunately, Lenny probably vetoed that, and made Jerry play k-lay.

Really, it makes sense to me, and seems extremely possible. I like Jerry's laid back approach, (and it really worked back in 2000) but what we see in terms of lineups are probably KW's lineups, not Jerry Manuel's.

I know almost all of you agree with me on this one: the problem starts at the top. I really hope some big corporation decides to buy off the Sox, and then completely reworks the management ranks.

Reinsdorf, KW, Pettis, Ward, and all of the other corrupt/incompetent coaches who have anything to do with this team and its farm affliates need to be handed their pink slips. I used to be a huge optimist, but this stuff that I read thru this site has convinced me that until we get another owner and gm, this team will not be anything better than a .500 team.

RKMeibalane
10-08-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
yep.

I really have nothing against Jerry Manuel, and I think that, especially in 2003 (with all of the young players), if Jerry is ALLOWED to run the team, we might have much better results than those of the last two years. Really when you think about it, could it be possible that the "tinkering" was not really Jerry Manuel's doing in the first place? After reading these Joe Cowley articles, I am ever convinced that half the time, Jerry Manuel would set up a lineup... kw would see it, and would make Jerry change it. I'm also convinced that the statements Jerry made regarding the benching of Clayton, etc. were in fact what he would have wanted to do. Unfortunately, Lenny probably vetoed that, and made Jerry play k-lay.

Really, it makes sense to me, and seems extremely possible. I like Jerry's laid back approach, (and it really worked back in 2000) but what we see in terms of lineups are probably KW's lineups, not Jerry Manuel's.

I know almost all of you agree with me on this one: the problem starts at the top. I really hope some big corporation decides to buy off the Sox, and then completely reworks the management ranks.

Reinsdorf, KW, Pettis, Ward, and all of the other corrupt/incompetent coaches who have anything to do with this team and its farm affliates need to be handed their pink slips. I used to be a huge optimist, but this stuff that I read thru this site has convinced me that until we get another owner and gm, this team will not be anything better than a .500 team.

I agree with most of what you said, with one small exception. I think Manuel's "tinkering" is the result of him needing to feel as though he is still in control of his baseball team. KW has clearly been "stirring the pot" with regards to several of Manuel's decisions. Royce Clayton is a perfect example.

If Williiams continues to interfere in clubhouse matters next season, Reinsdorf should fire him. It's not good for an organization to be run by someone who holds secret meetings, screams at players, and tips over buffet tables.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-08-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
....If Williiams continues to interfere in clubhouse matters next season, Reinsdorf should fire him. It's not good for an organization to be run by someone who holds secret meetings, screams at players, and tips over buffet tables.

LMAO! It sounds like Reinsdorf runs the Sox like Vince McMahon runs pro wrestling!

:KW
"Boss, that Trish Stratus is too much!"

:reinsy
"Kenny, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, I had buns like Triple-H."

:jerry
"Whoa! You nearly made me lose my lunch with that one, boss!"

guillen4life13
10-08-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LMAO! It sounds like Reinsdorf runs the Sox like Vince McMahon runs pro wrestling!

:KW
"Boss, that Trish Stratus is too much!"

:reinsy
"Kenny, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, I had buns like Triple-H."

:jerry
"Whoa! You nearly made me lose my lunch with that one, boss!"

*****!!! post of the week?