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Lip Man 1
10-03-2002, 11:54 AM
Paul Ladewski, who is the Sports Editor of the Daily Southtown had a very interesting "commentary" in today's edition.

It basically is a White Sox seasonal wrap up from a manager's point of view.

He has some "brutal" comments about Kenny Williams and also an interesting "revelation" about Jerry Reinsdorf. It seems late August wasn't the only time, the owner came down into the clubhouse and screamed. To wit:

"After ex-Sox Mike Cameron slugged four home runs last May, board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf was the first person to second-guess Manuel in the clubhouse. "The conversation was one-sided," an eyewitness said. "And it wasn't very pleasant."

Some managers would have reminded Reinsdorf they didn't throw the meatballs. Not Manuel.

"I'm doing the best that I can with what I have," he told him politely"

I have never seen that printed anywhere before.

Lip

steff
10-03-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Paul Ladewski, who is the Sports Editor of the Daily Southtown had a very interesting "commentary" in today's edition.

It basically is a White Sox seasonal wrap up from a manager's point of view.

He has some "brutal" comments about Kenny Williams and also an interesting "revelation" about Jerry Reinsdorf. It seems late August wasn't the only time, the owner came down into the clubhouse and screamed. To wit:

"After ex-Sox Mike Cameron slugged four home runs last May, board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf was the first person to second-guess Manuel in the clubhouse. "The conversation was one-sided," an eyewitness said. "And it wasn't very pleasant."

Some managers would have reminded Reinsdorf they didn't throw the meatballs. Not Manuel.

"I'm doing the best that I can with what I have," he told him politely"

I have never seen that printed anywhere before.

Lip


It was mentioned on the AOL boards... Or maybe with the guys from the AOL board at my BBQ... not sure. Blame the :gulp: hehe.
He also screamed his head off after the three losses to the tribe at the end of the season.

voodoochile
10-03-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Paul Ladewski, who is the Sports Editor of the Daily Southtown had a very interesting "commentary" in today's edition.

It basically is a White Sox seasonal wrap up from a manager's point of view.

He has some "brutal" comments about Kenny Williams and also an interesting "revelation" about Jerry Reinsdorf. It seems late August wasn't the only time, the owner came down into the clubhouse and screamed. To wit:

"After ex-Sox Mike Cameron slugged four home runs last May, board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf was the first person to second-guess Manuel in the clubhouse. "The conversation was one-sided," an eyewitness said. "And it wasn't very pleasant."

Some managers would have reminded Reinsdorf they didn't throw the meatballs. Not Manuel.

"I'm doing the best that I can with what I have," he told him politely"



I have never seen that printed anywhere before.

Lip

:selljerry

ode to veeck
10-03-2002, 01:26 PM
just another example of how JM is a blade of grass in the wind, whichever and from whomever the wind is blowing, he bends, in this case, butter bitches mercilessly from the minors, even though he couldn't thrrow 80mpg yet, and JM brings him up and blows several games with him, until a hurricane blows forth from JR and he bends again, ... it goes on and on, this guy should not be our manager

Cheryl
10-03-2002, 01:36 PM
Reinsdorf has no business in lockerroom either. He doesn't like something, he should be calling JM into his office, not screaming in front of witnesses. It's a really unprofessional way to manage staff.

CLR01
10-03-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
Reinsdorf has no business in lockerroom either. He doesn't like something, he should be calling JM into his office, not screaming in front of witnesses. It's a really unprofessional way to manage staff.



He is the owner that gives him the right to blow up at anyone, anywhere, at anytime. Perks of the job i guess.

Cheryl
10-03-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
He is the owner that gives him the right to blow up at anyone, anywhere, at anytime. Perks of the job i guess.

It's a stupid way to run a business.

voodoochile
10-03-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
It's a stupid way to run a business.

Especially a professional sports franchise. It's bad enough when a boss in a normal job is an idiot who screams all the time, but people who make millions of dollars a year don't stand for that crap. They either leave the first moment they can or they just quit trying (or both).

:reinsy
"I was just putting in my $0.02 on the lousy stinking job that the guy I agreed to hire and let run the team was doing. How can he expect to have MLB quality pitching when the fans won't come out and support the garbage I throw out there?"

:KW
"Right again, JR. I know I called Parque up, but JM didn't really have to play him. I was just tired of listening to him bitch and wanted someone else to have to deal with it for a while."

Nellie_Fox
10-03-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Especially a professional sports franchise. It's bad enough when a boss in a normal job is an idiot who screams all the time, but people who make millions of dollars a year don't stand for that crap. They either leave the first moment they can or they just quit trying (or both). So how come so many Sox fans are always wanting a screaming maniac (e.g., Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Lou Pinella) type of manager? How come a screaming, urinal smashing, base throwing manager is great motivation, but if the owner does it it's a bad thing? (I wouldn't want to work for a screamer in any capacity, but that's just me.)

Cheryl
10-03-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
So how come so many Sox fans are always wanting a screaming maniac (e.g., Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Lou Pinella) type of manager? How come a screaming, urinal smashing, base throwing manager is great motivation, but if the owner does it it's a bad thing? (I wouldn't want to work for a screamer in any capacity, but that's just me.)

But Weaver and Martin and Pinella are smart . That's the difference. Besides, didn't they normally scream at umpires and not players?

Nellie_Fox
10-03-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
But Weaver and Martin and Pinella are smart . That's the difference. Besides, didn't they normally scream at umpires and not players? I know that at least Martin would have epic meltdowns in the locker room, with at least one incident of smashing urinals and sinks with a baseball bat (behavior that would get you or me carted away in leather restraints) and on a couple of occasions had to be restrained in the dugout to keep him from going after players.

SI1020
10-03-2002, 04:18 PM
That was a great article! Notice the parts about Hawk being a mouthpiece for JR and KW employing his "spies" in the clubhouse.

voodoochile
10-03-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I know that at least Martin would have epic meltdowns in the locker room, with at least one incident of smashing urinals and sinks with a baseball bat (behavior that would get you or me carted away in leather restraints) and on a couple of occasions had to be restrained in the dugout to keep him from going after players.

IMO, they're's a difference between a manger screaming a his players and an owner publicly chewing out a manager in front of those same players.

The players are supposed to be on the same page as the manager. When he screams at them it is motivation to do better. That is part of the love/hate motivational ploy that occurs between coaches and players (play hard because you love me, and if not, I'll make you hate me). The owner has no actual involvement in the team unless they are acting as GM. For the owner to enter the locker room and publicly humiliate the manager in front of the players and the press is uncalled for. It undermines the managers authority with the players and doesn't accomplish anything (in this case it actually made things worse if the next few months are any indication).

Management screaming at management should always occur behind closed doors, IMO. It happens, but it should be a two way street and it should never be made public.

JR may be the owner, but his responsibility is supposed to end when he signs the checks, regardless of what his title says. He clearly doesn't understand how to run a team and ticking off the players and the managers is NOT the way to make things better.

So at current count we are at 4 (count them FOUR) locker room scream fests perpetrated by KW and JR this year. Is it any wonder that this team failed?

duke of dorwood
10-03-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
just another example of how JM is a blade of grass in the wind, whichever and from whomever the wind is blowing, he bends, in this case, butter bitches mercilessly from the minors, even though he couldn't thrrow 80mpg yet, and JM brings him up and blows several games with him, until a hurricane blows forth from JR and he bends again, ... it goes on and on, this guy should not be our manager

TIME TO CUT THE GRASS

Nellie_Fox
10-03-2002, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Management screaming at management should always occur behind closed doors, IMO. It happens, but it should be a two way street and it should never be made public.

JR may be the owner, but his responsibility is supposed to end when he signs the checks, regardless of what his title says. He clearly doesn't understand how to run a team and ticking off the players and the managers is NOT the way to make things better.
I don't agree with screaming as a management tool at all. I just find it interesting that people think its great for the manager, but not for the owner.

I do disagree that they guy who owns the team should just sign the checks and shut up.

ode to veeck
10-03-2002, 08:30 PM
TIME TO CUT THE GRASS

*****

I'll volunteer the 40 yr old craftsman mower I bought at the flea market for $20 five years ago. I refuse to even invest in a new spark plug for it, but it cuts my grass every week (which is more than I can say for JR, KW, and JM)

Lip Man 1
10-03-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Nellie Fox:

I do disagree that they guy who owns the team should just sign the checks and shut up.

Just wondering...

Even when the owner doesn't know a damn thing about baseball?
That's the surest recipe for disaster.

Lip

voodoochile
10-03-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I don't agree with screaming as a management tool at all. I just find it interesting that people think its great for the manager, but not for the owner.

I do disagree that they guy who owns the team should just sign the checks and shut up.

I'm not a big fan of screaming managers either, but it is more understandable and is accepted as a motivational ploy in today's sporting world...

Like Lip said... What if that owner doesn't really know crap about baseball? Why not blame KW for building the team that fell apart like a pair of $2 sneakers?

All I know is that I have never heard of a MLB owner chewing out the manager in a public manner or a GM tipping over tables and swearing at the players. Maybe I just don't see the reports. Still, this team stinks from the head down...

soxtalker
10-04-2002, 10:14 AM
This does seem to be strange behaviour for an owner. But I wonder, have their been other reports in past years of JR doing such things -- either in basketball or baseball? If not, why now? This is, of course, a pretty disappointing team, but we've had our share of those under the JR ownership regime. So, does this indicate that JR is under pressure that he wasn't under before?

voodoochile
10-04-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
This does seem to be strange behaviour for an owner. But I wonder, have their been other reports in past years of JR doing such things -- either in basketball or baseball? If not, why now? This is, of course, a pretty disappointing team, but we've had our share of those under the JR ownership regime. So, does this indicate that JR is under pressure that he wasn't under before?

IIRC, there was an article about JR yelling at Krause last January insisting that Krause find a way to improve the Bulls immediately. So, some of this may be extra pressure. People are starting to point the finger at him (something we here at WSI are proud to take a frontline stance on). JR is an arrogant, wealthy man who experienced the joys of winning multiple championships with the Bulls. He is used to having his way by merely opening his mouth. Now that isn't the case. If the current team doesn't do more than the last version of the Kids can play, then, I predict, there will be widespread dissent among the fans and media. Much more than before. JR's window is closing as the fans and media start to look more closely at the hires he has made and as the losses continue to pile up. He is also 70 now, so he is probably feeling time pressure also. He's going to have to sell eventually. JR knows that it's now or never for him. I'm sure he'd like to go out a winner but only on his terms.

Lip Man 1
10-04-2002, 01:08 PM
Actually Reinsdorf turns 67 not 70 this year, but I do think his age does have something to do with all that has been taking place.

In my opinion though it's interesting to note, that if the reports are true, then Reinsdorf is starting to act like he really wants to win BUT STILL ISN'T WILLING TO 'PAY' FOR THAT RESULT

Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too?

Uncle Jerry knows that his time on this Earth is getting shorter and he wants to "leave" something behind, yet all the reports are saying he's ordered another payroll cut, to about 45 million for 2003.

To borrow a line "Anybody who thinks the Sox (with a 45 million dollar payroll) can catch the Yankees (or Angels, or Mariners, or A's or Red Sox) is crazy..."

Lip

soxtalker
10-04-2002, 03:57 PM
Is the cut to 45 million just JR's stubborness? Or does it another indication of pressure from the other owners?

Lip Man 1
10-04-2002, 10:45 PM
Those reports on the Sox payroll projections for next season were printed in the Chicago newspapers long before the new labor agreement. They were a main item when the Sox started getting rid of veteran players towards the end of July.

It's caused by Reinsdorf's usual reasoning, "the fans won't support me, so I won't spend any money..."

It is interesting though that the Sox complain about "lack of fan support" but have never to the best of my knowledge, ever posted an actual number, that they consider "good" fan support.

What are we talking about here, 2 million fans, 2.5 million fans, what's the number?

I think that's not an accident. If the organization ever posted a definate number, Sox fans are onery enough to come out enough times to get it, just to force Reinsdorf to start spending his money.

So the safe play is just to bitch about fan support without giving a number needed, that way it's always nebulous regarding what the team needs to make a "profit" and start raising payroll.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
10-04-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
....I think that's not an accident. If the organization ever posted a definate number, Sox fans are onery enough to come out enough times to get it, just to force Reinsdorf to start spending his money....

:reinsy
"Damn those Sox Fans! They're on to me!"

:ohno
"After 21 seasons, what else did you expect?"

DVG
10-04-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


I think that's not an accident. If the organization ever posted a definate number, Sox fans are onery enough to come out enough times to get it, just to force Reinsdorf to start spending his money.



Lip

That is a load of BULL. The team would draw its usual 1.5 or 1.6
million, then the excuse would be that the good ol' Sox fans
resent being told that a certain number of them had better
come out to the park. I am not buying your logic for a second.

Dan H
10-05-2002, 07:26 AM
The simple fact is that fans are not obligated to come out the ballpark. The team has to draw them there. The bottom line on Reinsdorf is that he has alienated fans and not produced a World Series appearance in a little over two decades. He knew when he bought the team that Sox fans are not impressed with two game winning streaks and sunny days. He knew they are more demanding and are not going to put with empty promises and endless rebuilding efforts. One World Series since 1919 is inexcusable, and it's time to produce.

Reinsdorf can yell all he wants, but this team is his responsibility. Ever since the White Flag Trade he has more concerned about being right. I don't care who was right or wrong anymore. Just produce a real winner. Then he won't have to yell at anyone or make this same tired and lame excuse about fan support.

voodoochile
10-05-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
The simple fact is that fans are not obligated to come out the ballpark. The team has to draw them there. The bottom line on Reinsdorf is that he has alienated fans and not produced a World Series appearance in a little over two decades. He knew when he bought the team that Sox fans are not impressed with two game winning streaks and sunny days. He knew they are more demanding and are not going to put with empty promises and endless rebuilding efforts. One World Series since 1919 is inexcusable, and it's time to produce.

Reinsdorf can yell all he wants, but this team is his responsibility. Ever since the White Flag Trade he has more concerned about being right. I don't care who was right or wrong anymore. Just produce a real winner. Then he won't have to yell at anyone or make this same tired and lame excuse about fan support.

:reinsy
"NONONONONONONONONO!!! You have it completely backwards... FIRST you show me support and give me your money THEN I build a winner."

:KW
(snickers)

:gallas
"We can have a 'Watch the Dogs on the field' promotion day!"

:reinsy
"If more people will just come to Rob's amazing promotions, we can eventually build this city a winner, but for next year, I am cutting payroll and running the greatest hitter in the history of the team out of town."

:KW
"Is that man in tune with the fans or what?"

:gallas
"How about an 80's theme night - fans can come as JR to show their support for the owner?"

:ohno
"Can we have a 'who shot JR' night?"