PDA

View Full Version : Buehrle - Class Act


Dan H
09-29-2002, 08:35 AM
The White Sox need more players like Mark Buehrle. Not just for his talent, but for his attitude. Here is a guy who is only 23 but acts much older. He loses a chance at 20 wins in a heartbreaking way, but pointed the finger at no one but himself. No bitterness, no blaming others for his disappointment. And this is after the Sox played hard ball with him during last winter's negotiations.

What do we get from other Sox players? Belated aggressive talk about sending a message. When it came down to winning big games earlier in the season, no one was there. When it came down to winning an important game for a teammate, they went out and got two measely runs.

Many fans just look at stats. It is hard to argue with big numbers, but there is more to playing baseball than that. That is why Frank Thomas is not popular with many fans. You can't argue with his numbers, but many are sick of his selfish attitude.

Right now the Sox are nothing but a .500 team. If they want to take that a step further, they need to do one simple thing: Go and get more players like Mark Buehrle.

MarqSox
09-29-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Dan H

Right now the Sox are nothing but a .500 team. If they want to take that a step further, they need to do one simple thing: Go and get more players like Mark Buehrle.

My favorite attribute about Buehrle is that he doesn't suck. I'm in favor of getting more pitchers that don't suck.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-29-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
My favorite attribute about Buehrle is that he doesn't suck. I'm in favor of getting more pitchers that don't suck.

LOL! But those are the ones that cost money!

:reinsy
"Are you out of your mind?! I can't possibly spare more than $5 million for my entire rotation!"

bc2k
09-29-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
He loses a chance at 20 wins in a heartbreaking way, but pointed the finger at no one but himself.

When it came down to winning an important game for a teammate, they went out and got two measely runs.

Remember not too long ago when Manuel wouldn't let Buehrle pitch the 10th inning after only throwing 100 pitches? What team was that against? Anyway, despite Cooper, Nosek, and Buehrle all wanting him to pitch the 10th, Manuel wouldn't let him. And the Sox wound up scoring that inning and Buehrle wasn't able to get the win. I remember people here saying, "Oh, well it's only going to make a difference if Buehrle gets 19 wins." Well, he's got 19, and Manuel has cost Buehrle his landmark 20th win. Pitchers don't get many opportunities to win 20 in a season, and Manuel may have cost Buehrle his best opportunity.

That's reason enough to fire Manuel.

You're right Dan, this offense chokes in big games, 3 examples are the 2000 playoffs to games vs. the Twins, to Buehrle hitting a landmark plateau. 217 homers mean nothing to me.

ode to veeck
09-30-2002, 01:59 PM
That's reason enough to fire Manuel.

we should start a thread to list the all too many reasons

bc2k
10-01-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
we should start a thread to list the all too many reasons

I like that idea.

kermittheefrog
10-01-2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Remember not too long ago when Manuel wouldn't let Buehrle pitch the 10th inning after only throwing 100 pitches? What team was that against? Anyway, despite Cooper, Nosek, and Buehrle all wanting him to pitch the 10th, Manuel wouldn't let him. And the Sox wound up scoring that inning and Buehrle wasn't able to get the win. I remember people here saying, "Oh, well it's only going to make a difference if Buehrle gets 19 wins." Well, he's got 19, and Manuel has cost Buehrle his landmark 20th win. Pitchers don't get many opportunities to win 20 in a season, and Manuel may have cost Buehrle his best opportunity.

That's reason enough to fire Manuel.

You're right Dan, this offense chokes in big games, 3 examples are the 2000 playoffs to games vs. the Twins, to Buehrle hitting a landmark plateau. 217 homers mean nothing to me.

Does it really make a difference in our season whether Buehrle won 19 or 20? There are a million reasons to fire Manuel but not marching Buehrle out for the 10th inning that game wasn't one. HEY GUESS WHAT WE WON THAT GAME, GET OVER IT and Buehrle hasn't come down with an arm injury yet. You could at least come up with something obviously stupid that has had or should have a negative effect on the team.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2002, 01:40 PM
Just wondering...

Will everyone feel the same way after Mark leaves the Sox as a free agent and winds up in St. Louis?

Will certain fans be "condemming" him for being "disloyal" to the Sox and for being "money hungry?"

(You know, the same folks who sided with the owners in this last labor dispute and who expect Tampa Bay to play Milwaukee in the World Series in 2006 thanks to all the revenue sharing...) LOL

Lip

Iwritecode
10-01-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Will everyone feel the same way after Mark leaves the Sox as a free agent and winds up in St. Louis?

Will certain fans be "condemming" him for being "disloyal" to the Sox and for being "money hungry?"

(You know, the same folks who sided with the owners in this last labor dispute and who expect Tampa Bay to play Milwaukee in the World Series in 2006 thanks to all the revenue sharing...) LOL

Lip

As sad is it may be, I couldn't really blame Mark if he ends up in St. Louis. With cheapskate ownership that lowers the amount of money they offer you just because they feel like it when you turn down their first offer and hasn't won jack for almost 100 years, who can really blame him? Plus, who wouldn't want to play for their hometown team? I'd hate to see him go but I can see why he would...

sox_fan_forever
10-01-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
As sad is it may be, I couldn't really blame Mark if he ends up in St. Louis. With cheapskate ownership that lowers the amount of money they offer you just because they feel like it when you turn down their first offer and hasn't won jack for almost 100 years, who can really blame him? Plus, who wouldn't want to play for their hometown team? I'd hate to see him go but I can see why he would...

I feel the same way.

RichH55
10-03-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
As sad is it may be, I couldn't really blame Mark if he ends up in St. Louis. With cheapskate ownership that lowers the amount of money they offer you just because they feel like it when you turn down their first offer and hasn't won jack for almost 100 years, who can really blame him? Plus, who wouldn't want to play for their hometown team? I'd hate to see him go but I can see why he would...


He isnt in St Loius yet.....I would still bet on him winding up with the Sox for the next 5 years at least

Cheryl
10-03-2002, 05:46 PM
And he may not go to St Louis. He'll go to whichever teams wants him and has room on its roster and will pay whatever he thinks is a reasonable amount of money. Which I don't think is the Sox.

bc2k
10-03-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Does it really make a difference in our season whether Buehrle won 19 or 20? There are a million reasons to fire Manuel but not marching Buehrle out for the 10th inning that game wasn't one. HEY GUESS WHAT WE WON THAT GAME, GET OVER IT and Buehrle hasn't come down with an arm injury yet. You could at least come up with something obviously stupid that has had or should have a negative effect on the team.

Okay, if you don't care about the success of Sox players, look into the situation a little deeper; Manuel ignored his player and two of his coaches. As you so eloquently put it, that is obviously stupid. Ignorance isn't a quality a manager should have.

RichH55
10-03-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Okay, if you don't care about the success of Sox players, look into the situation a little deeper; Manuel ignored his player and two of his coaches. As you so eloquently put it, that is obviously stupid. Ignorance isn't a quality a manager should have.


So one ancedote is enough to fire the manager.....for the most part over a non-factor on the season...especially since we won the damn game(which is sort of the point, eh?) And Manuel will take the blame for bad things happening, so why wouldnt the final decesion rest with him? If you are going to put a position like manager out there, then he should probably be able to trump the opinion of the assistants he is provided with. And how many pitchers want to be taken out of games? And do you think those coachs that Manuel overruled are god's gift to coaching? I'm guessing you don't....so basically you are willing to put a certain spin on any argument provided it vibes with your opinion, not necessarily common sense or the facts of the sitution, which surprisingly(not sarcasm) always seem to be in the way of your arguments

kermittheefrog
10-03-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Okay, if you don't care about the success of Sox players, look into the situation a little deeper; Manuel ignored his player and two of his coaches. As you so eloquently put it, that is obviously stupid. Ignorance isn't a quality a manager should have.

You're an idiot if you think Buehrle's season would be significantly different or more successful if he had pitched one more inning to get one more win.

ode to veeck
10-03-2002, 08:52 PM
You're an idiot if you think Buehrle's season would be significantly different or more successful if he had pitched one more inning to get one more win

Depends on how you measure success, and one measure for Mark will be how fat his next contract is, and that five more mintues on the mound for that 20th win would arguably make a measurable difference, especially if he racks up 20 or more next year too

bc2k
10-03-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
So one ancedote is enough to fire the manager.....for the most part over a non-factor on the season...especially since we won the damn game(which is sort of the point, eh?) And Manuel will take the blame for bad things happening, so why wouldnt the final decesion rest with him? If you are going to put a position like manager out there, then he should probably be able to trump the opinion of the assistants he is provided with. And how many pitchers want to be taken out of games? And do you think those coachs that Manuel overruled are god's gift to coaching? I'm guessing you don't....so basically you are willing to put a certain spin on any argument provided it vibes with your opinion, not necessarily common sense or the facts of the sitution, which surprisingly(not sarcasm) always seem to be in the way of your arguments

Robbing Buehrle of his 20th is not reason alone to fire JM. That was said sarcastically while angry. I do believe JM should be fired, but I'll reserve those reasons for another discussion.

I agree, as manager, he does have final decisions and should be held responsible for those. But to answer your question, I have more respect and confidence in Don Cooper and Joe Nosek than in Jerry Manuel. I hold their two opinions higher than I do Jerry's.

The problem I have with Manuel is that we have no idea that this was an isolated incident. We don't know how many times in the past he has failed to take the advice of his coaches. For him to not utilize an intelligent baseball mind in Joe Nosek is revolting to me.

I hope I have answered your questions to your liking, and now I have a couple of my own: Would you have liked to see Mark pitch the 10th in that game? Did you want to see Mark win 20 games this year? Were you pleased that Frank Thomas didn't win the MVP award in 2000?

doublem23
10-03-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

I hope I have answered your questions to your liking, and now I have a couple of my own: Would you have liked to see Mark pitch the 10th in that game? Did you want to see Mark win 20 games this year? Were you upset that Frank Thomas didn't win the MVP award in 2000?

Dude, you speak like that was Buehrle's ONLY CHANCE at 20 wins and that one time and that one time alone caused him 20.

Which, of course isn't true. Mark had his fair share of games and he also had a couple of other games he just got screwed out of a win when he pitched well enough to get one (remember that 1-0 loss at Oakland?).

Not letting him pitch the 10th didn't cost him 20.

bc2k
10-03-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You're an idiot if you think Buehrle's season would be significantly different or more successful if he had pitched one more inning to get one more win.

I'm an idiot for wanting Buehrle to match his personal goal that he set before the start of the 2002 season? I'm sure to him, and anyone else that sets goals, that the object is to obtain those goals. So YES, his season would have been significantly more successful had he pitched that one more inning.

What is with the name calling, Kermit? Hanging around with the Lique's again?

bc2k
10-03-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Dude, you speak like that was Buehrle's ONLY CHANCE at 20 wins and that one time and that one time alone caused him 20.

Which, of course isn't true. Mark had his fair share of games and he also had a couple of other games he just got screwed out of a win when he pitched well enough to get one (remember that 1-0 loss at Oakland?).

Not letting him pitch the 10th didn't cost him 20.

Mark has had his share of shoulda, woulda, coulda, winnable games. He's gotten screwed out of wins by his offense, screwed by his defense, has screwed himself, and has gotten just plain beaten by his opponent. This is baseball, and he can't win them all. But to lose a game of such landmark importance because of your own manager is sickening.

Hopefully in 2003 Mark will win 23 and not be a victim of his manager. But what if he doesn't attain that landmark ever in his career? Once retired, to look back and know that your manager of all people cost you your only 20 win season, would be depressing.

bc2k
10-03-2002, 11:57 PM
The title of this thread is "Mark Buehrle - Class Act." The fact that Mark hasn't said a word to the press of Manuel costing him 20 wins is just another example of that.

I am a Mark Buehrle fan
I am a Chicago White Sox fan
I want to see them both succeed.

idseer
10-04-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I'm an idiot for wanting Buehrle to match his personal goal that he set before the start of the 2002 season? I'm sure to him, and anyone else that sets goals, that the object is to obtain those goals. So YES, his season would have been significantly more successful had he pitched that one more inning.


we don't all reach every goal we set for ourselves. that's not the point of setting goals. the point is he played his best during the quest which is all anyone can ask. if it was taken out of his hands it should have no effect at all on him personally.
so being angry FOR him is misguided imo.

bc2k
10-04-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by idseer
we don't all reach every goal we set for ourselves. that's not the point of setting goals. the point is he played his best during the quest which is all anyone can ask. if it was taken out of his hands it should have no effect at all on him personally.
so being angry FOR him is misguided imo.

What? Goals are motivational tools, yes, and of course there is disappointment if they aren't met. That's human nature. One can still walk with pride if they fall short of their goal. Like you said, if he tried his best there is nothing wrong with that. But to be handcuffed from doing your best is a situation that I have a problem with.

idseer
10-04-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
But to be handcuffed from doing your best is a situation that I have a problem with.

i'd hardly say he was handcuffed. he pitched 9 innings. what would you be saying if he'd left him in and he gives up 4 runs in the 10th?

i've always been against managing in such a way as to break specific records or reach arbitrary goals (which 20 wins IS btw).
NOBODY dislikes JM as a manager more than i do (and have for the last 4 or 5 years), but to focus on one incident and pretend THAT is the cause of some players not reaching some target is silly. i am MUCH more upset about the time he was removed late when he was winning and doing great and we lost DIRECTLY because of jm's dumb managing (i forget which game).