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balboner
09-25-2002, 03:29 PM
Now that Frank has shown glimpses of his old self, it will be very hard for Reinsdork to invoke the dim. skills clause. Therefore, it seems likely that either Foulke or Lee will be traded in the off-season. I still would love to see Foulke get the chance to start, so why not trade Lee and a prospect like Almonte for a starting pitcher? Some of the options I've heard so far are El Duque, Ponson, and Lilly. These are not great options though, and Lee is on his way into becoming a big-time hitter (great improvement in walks and D).

duke of dorwood
09-25-2002, 03:37 PM
Lee and Foulke would save 10 mil. You can pencil them gone. Thats why Keith was never reinstalled as the closer this year. There is a money related issue for everything this team does.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2002, 03:47 PM
I also would be shocked if the owner did not invoke the diminished skills clause.

That clause was put in the contract for a reason, not to just take up space.

For whatever it's worth, everything that I have read among the writers who cover the Sox say the clause is going to be enforced.

That doesn't mean Thomas is going anywhere because no one will give him as good a deal as he has now, but the clause will be used.

Lip

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by balboner
Now that Frank has shown glimpses of his old self, it will be very hard for Reinsdork to invoke the dim. skills clause. Therefore, it seems likely that either Foulke or Lee will be traded in the off-season. I still would love to see Foulke get the chance to start, so why not trade Lee and a prospect like Almonte for a starting pitcher? Some of the options I've heard so far are El Duque, Ponson, and Lilly. These are not great options though, and Lee is on his way into becoming a big-time hitter (great improvement in walks and D).

It all depends on what they can get in return. I am very scared of dealing Carlos, particularly in light of his remarkable new ability to swing only at strikes (the one thing he has previously lacked). I wouldn't deal him for Ponson. I'm hesitant on the other two as well. But to get a pitcher that will help, we'll need to deal someone who we'll probably miss.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It all depends on what they can get in return. I am very scared of dealing Carlos, particularly in light of his remarkable new ability to swing only at strikes (the one thing he has previously lacked). I wouldn't deal him for Ponson. I'm hesitant on the other two as well. But to get a pitcher that will help, we'll need to deal someone who we'll probably miss.

Which is exactly why they should go after FA pitching. Sox can't keep trading their high-level minor leaguers and young major league starters for other teams experienced pitchers. It hurts too much when/if the player acquired is a bust. FA pitchers only cost money...

:reinsy
"your what hurts? NONONONONONONONONO! Trade talent not money. The money is mine all mine and you stupid fans can't have a winner until you give me even more. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Which is exactly why they should go after FA pitching.

Deeppink voodoo, deeppink.

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Which is exactly why they should go after FA pitching. Sox can't keep trading their high-level minor leaguers and young major league starters for other teams experienced pitchers. It hurts too much when/if the player acquired is a bust. FA pitchers only cost money...


Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Paul Byrd
Jamie Moyer
Omar Daal
Steve Trachsel

These are the top 6 UFA pitchers in my book. Might as well cross off Maddux & Glavine right now. The same can probably be said for Byrd & Moyer. Realistically we're looking at Daal/Trachsel-level pitchers. I'd take either one in the Sox rotation & they both will probably come somewhat affordable.

Daver
09-25-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Paul Byrd
Jamie Moyer
Omar Daal
Steve Trachsel

These are the top 6 UFA pitchers in my book. Might as well cross off Maddux & Glavine right now. The same can probably be said for Byrd & Moyer. Realistically we're looking at Daal/Trachsel-level pitchers. I'd take either one in the Sox rotation & they both will probably come somewhat affordable.

I would rather have Chopper take the mound every fifth day than Steve "the human rain delay " Trachsel.

:redneck

RichH55
09-26-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I also would be shocked if the owner did not invoke the diminished skills clause.

That clause was put in the contract for a reason, not to just take up space.

For whatever it's worth, everything that I have read among the writers who cover the Sox say the clause is going to be enforced.

That doesn't mean Thomas is going anywhere because no one will give him as good a deal as he has now, but the clause will be used.

Lip


Are we betting on this?

MisterB
09-26-2002, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Paul Byrd
Jamie Moyer
Omar Daal
Steve Trachsel

These are the top 6 UFA pitchers in my book. Might as well cross off Maddux & Glavine right now. The same can probably be said for Byrd & Moyer. Realistically we're looking at Daal/Trachsel-level pitchers. I'd take either one in the Sox rotation & they both will probably come somewhat affordable.

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if the Sox go after Byrd because:

1) His career numbers coming into this season were nearly identical to Todd Ritchie's, and
2) He'll probably never repeat this year's performance :D:

hold2dibber
09-26-2002, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Paul Byrd
Jamie Moyer
Omar Daal
Steve Trachsel

These are the top 6 UFA pitchers in my book. Might as well cross off Maddux & Glavine right now. The same can probably be said for Byrd & Moyer. Realistically we're looking at Daal/Trachsel-level pitchers. I'd take either one in the Sox rotation & they both will probably come somewhat affordable.

I wouldn't touch Trachsel, but I wouldn't mind seeing Daal. I thought Pedro Astascio was a FA as well - he's another guy I'd like to see in a Sox uniform. Although I have some fear of the Sox' dreaded NL pitcher curse (see Navarro, Jamie and Ritchie, Todd).

Lip Man 1
09-26-2002, 01:19 PM
Before we bet Rich, I'd like you to read all of the Frank Thomas related stories in the Southtown, Sun Times and Tribune today.

Even Thomas thinks the new regime is trying to "push him out." (That's Thomas' quote...)

If after all that you want to bet, I'd be happy tp take your money.

Lip

WinningUgly!
09-26-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
I would rather have Chopper take the mound every fifth day than Steve "the human rain delay " Trachsel.

:redneck Since the All-Star break last season, Trachsel is 19-14 with a 3.17 ERA. He's 10-11 with a 3.44 ERA this season & only 31 years old.

RichH55
09-26-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I wouldn't touch Trachsel, but I wouldn't mind seeing Daal. I thought Pedro Astascio was a FA as well - he's another guy I'd like to see in a Sox uniform. Although I have some fear of the Sox' dreaded NL pitcher curse (see Navarro, Jamie and Ritchie, Todd).


Pedro hit options in his contract which guartned the deal for at least next year

RichH55
09-26-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Before we bet Rich, I'd like you to read all of the Frank Thomas related stories in the Southtown, Sun Times and Tribune today.

Even Thomas thinks the new regime is trying to "push him out." (That's Thomas' quote...)

If after all that you want to bet, I'd be happy tp take your money.

Lip


I read them...doesnt mean the clause has been invoked :D: As to the bet, remember I'm a poor college student, so I'm all for a gentleman's bet on principle...unless you need my Jimmy Johns money that badly

RichH55
09-26-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Since the All-Star break last season, Trachsel is 19-14 with a 3.17 ERA. He's 10-11 with a 3.44 ERA this season & only 31 years old.


Trachsel has never been a bad pitcher, but hes not one to inspire confidence either....He just seems to be a guy when you have him you think to yourself "He doesnt have it" and you are always looking to upgrade.....simple solution and my refrain for the offseason: Moyer

nut_stock
09-26-2002, 06:29 PM
Dumping Frank Thomas after him having an encouraging September would be a big PR mistake. I think both sides should renegotiate and keep the disscussions out of the media

FarmerAndy
09-26-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Before we bet Rich, I'd like you to read all of the Frank Thomas related stories in the Southtown, Sun Times and Tribune today.

Even Thomas thinks the new regime is trying to "push him out." (That's Thomas' quote...)

If after all that you want to bet, I'd be happy tp take your money.

Lip

If they invoke the clause on Frank, I hope he decides to stay just to stick it to JR and KW.

The money is deferred, but they'd still have to pay him in full eventually.

RichH55
09-26-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If they invoke the clause on Frank, I hope he decides to stay just to stick it to JR and KW.

The money is deferred, but they'd still have to pay him in full eventually.

6 million spread out over 20 years is a huge loss.....assuming an interest rate of say 5% that 6 million(4 million already deferred) is equal to 2.26 million in real value assuming he gets the money at the end of the 20 year period....if we are talking annuities well then you just made the problem tougher on me...you bastards!

Daver
09-26-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If they invoke the clause on Frank, I hope he decides to stay just to stick it to JR and KW.

The money is deferred, but they'd still have to pay him in full eventually.

They will have to pay the money due in 2003 in 2005,the same for seasons after that,the new CBA has a rule on deferred money being paid out in two years.

The Sox gain nothing but one year in all reality by invoking the clause,and I beleive the contract counts against the luxury tax in full despite the deferred money.

I doubt it will be invoked.

FarmerAndy
09-26-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by daver
.

The Sox gain nothing but one year in all reality by invoking the clause,and I beleive the contract counts against the luxury tax in full despite the deferred money.



Good point. The only way the Sox would gain is if Frank left via free agency. That's why I think Frank should tell the Sox that's he's gonna stay no matter what. Then the Sox would have nothing to gain by invoking the clause.

voodoochile
09-26-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by daver
They will have to pay the money due in 2003 in 2005,the same for seasons after that,the new CBA has a rule on deferred money being paid out in two years.

The Sox gain nothing but one year in all reality by invoking the clause,and I beleive the contract counts against the luxury tax in full despite the deferred money.

I doubt it will be invoked.

Does that include contracts that were grandfathered in like Franks? Wouldn't the wording of the contract take precedence over anything signed after it? If not, the players did Frank a huge favor...

voodoochile
09-26-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Good point. The only way the Sox would gain is if Frank left via free agency. That's why I think Frank should tell the Sox that's he's gonna stay no matter what. Then the Sox would have nothing to gain by invoking the clause.

:reinsy
"It will show the fans and the players who is really in charge and what the real motivation for me owning a team is... MONEY!!!!"

:KW
"I got your back, JR. Frank is as good as DSC'ed."

:reinsy
"Wasn't he just the perfect GM signing? He even saves me money by working cheap..."

:gallas
"I've got it! We'll have I hate Frank Thomas Night and ask all of the fans to wear Reinsdorf masks whenever he hits."

:reinsy
"Now that's PR! You all taking notes here?"

Lip Man 1
09-26-2002, 07:59 PM
Rich:

And I'm a poor adult, so what?

Also the clause hasn't been invoked yet. Your last post may have had a misspelling.

Uncle jerry can't invoke it till the end of the season. And remember just because the clause is invoked doesn't mean Thomas is going anywhere.

I do admit though that if he was only being paid 250,000 (50 thousand below the minimum) after his many years of service that would be disgraceful. He did however agree to the deal and Uncle Jerry never let sentiment get in his way of doing business.

Lip

Jjav829
09-26-2002, 08:01 PM
Im guessing we are going to see another KW trade. We know he likes to trade(not thats hes good at it...).

:KW
"Carlos Lee and Keith Foulke for Travis Driskill. Deal?"

cornball
09-26-2002, 09:01 PM
What are the possiblities of renegotiating the contract? I am sure he would not take less money, but it maybe structured to free some money for additional players and save face for Frank by not invoking the clause.

Not sure what arangement could be a win-win but he is not worth 10MM on a team with a tight budget.

Daver
09-26-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by cornball
What are the possiblities of renegotiating the contract? I am sure he would not take less money, but it maybe structured to free some money for additional players and save face for Frank by not invoking the clause.

Not sure what arangement could be a win-win but he is not worth 10MM on a team with a tight budget.

The new CBA makes it diffucult to restructure a contract in order for the player to make the same money AND free up team money for other accquisitions,as all deferred money now must be paid in two years from the date of deferrment.

And Frank Thomas is a ten million dollar a year ballplayer,without a doubt.

RichH55
09-26-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rich:

And I'm a poor adult, so what?

Also the clause hasn't been invoked yet. Your last post may have had a misspelling.

Uncle jerry can't invoke it till the end of the season. And remember just because the clause is invoked doesn't mean Thomas is going anywhere.

I do admit though that if he was only being paid 250,000 (50 thousand below the minimum) after his many years of service that would be disgraceful. He did however agree to the deal and Uncle Jerry never let sentiment get in his way of doing business.

Lip


Yeah I meant to say Hasnt been invoked yet...and I know the specfics of the deal as it has been discussed ad nauseum(sp.?)...but I will make a gentlemens bet with you...I think I will be right anyway, so Im not worried either way