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duke of dorwood
09-25-2002, 10:42 AM
:hurt

Has more HR than

:walnuts


Going to make "diminished skills" more challenging to enforce

Kilroy
09-25-2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood

Going to make "diminished skills" more challenging to enforce

Diminished skills my ass...

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:hurt

Has more HR than

:walnuts


Going to make "diminished skills" more challenging to enforce

Nearly twice as many walks as Pauly, too.

Frank has really had a decent 2nd half.
Here are some interesting improvements pre/post all-star break...

AVE-.239/.264
OBP-.333/.386
SLG-.440/.514
OPS-.773/.900

(last night's game not included)

Nah, recovering from last year's injury had nothing to do with his 1st half struggles.

cheeses_h_rice
09-25-2002, 11:24 AM
Let me "devil's advocate" a bit...the majority of posters on this board (me included) have bashed Royce Clayton for not putting up his improved numbers until the season was lost.

But Frank has, too.

Might Frank's surge in hitting have something to do with the fact that there's really no pressure on him anymore, or at least there is a lot less of it?

Like I said, devil's advocating...

bc2k
09-25-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:hurt

Has more HR than

:walnuts


Going to make "diminished skills" more challenging to enforce

The reason hurt has more homeruns than Konerko is because Paul gives up at bats for the team. For example, with a runner second with no outs Konerko will ground the ball to the right side of the infield. All season long Konerko has hit behind the runner, playing unselfish baseball.

If Konerko didn't play team baseball, he'd have more home runs than Thomas. Remember the home run derby? Paul just happens to like helping his team win while buckles is only concerned with his personal stats.

The difference between Frankie and the baseball player is that Paulie makes use of his outs while skirt pops the ball up.

Thomas hitting one more home run than Konerko doesn't mean he's not diminished clause material.

Don't look now but Konerko has 172 hits to Frankie's 127. Paul has 104 rbi to Frank's 91. Konerko has 68 k's to hurt's 109! Like I said, swinging for the fences.

But Frank is sooo patient at the plate and still draws his walks! Despite all his walks, Konerko still has a higher on base percentage, and slugging, and a batting average 58 points higher! I'm not impressed with Thomas's walks because he strikes out much more often.

But hurt has been hot this past month and he's going to come back next year with an MVP season! If he does, so be it. I'll take the risk of having him doing that for another team than keeping him here for 4 more years of popping up the ball. A designated hitter that can't hit. A man that can't hit being paid 40 million dollars. I don't care what he did in the past, the only hurting he'll be doing is on our playoff chances.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Let me "devil's advocate" a bit...the majority of posters on this board (me included) have bashed Royce Clayton for not putting up his improved numbers until the season was lost.

But Frank has, too.

Might Frank's surge in hitting have something to do with the fact that there's really no pressure on him anymore, or at least there is a lot less of it?

Like I said, devil's advocating...

Well, comparing Royce Clayton to FT is a big stretch, IMO. Some of the improvement may be from the lack of media attention due to the Sox falling out of the race, but with Frank, you expect it to continue next year as he has always been a hitter. With Royce you just hoped it carried over to the following season, which it didn't and never had.

Even if that is the case, should the clause be invoked? Aside from a really bad two month stretch in mid-summer, Frank has put up consistent power numbers all year long. Yes, his BA and OBP have been less than Franktacular, but they have been improving over the last few months - which coincided with him refusing to speak to the media anymore (they love to push Frank's buttons). Hope Frank comes back next year without any hype or hoopla. No, "I'm in a great mood, nothing can break my mood." stuff, just come back, shut up and hit. If he does that, he may find the team will get off his back too...

duke of dorwood
09-25-2002, 11:41 AM
Put "Franktacular" in that dictionary. I like it.

RichH55
09-25-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
The reason hurt has more homeruns than Konerko is because Paul gives up at bats for the team. For example, with a runner second with no outs Konerko will ground the ball to the right side of the infield. All season long Konerko has hit behind the runner, playing unselfish baseball.

If Konerko didn't play team baseball, he'd have more home runs than Thomas. Remember the home run derby? Paul just happens to like helping his team win while buckles is only concerned with his personal stats.

The difference between Frankie and the baseball player is that Paulie makes use of his outs while skirt pops the ball up.

Thomas hitting one more home run than Konerko doesn't mean he's not diminished clause material.

Don't look now but Konerko has 172 hits to Frankie's 127. Paul has 104 rbi to Frank's 91. Konerko has 68 k's to hurt's 109! Like I said, swinging for the fences.

But Frank is sooo patient at the plate and still draws his walks! Despite all his walks, Konerko still has a higher on base percentage, and slugging, and a batting average 58 points higher! I'm not impressed with Thomas's walks because he strikes out much more often.

But hurt has been hot this past month and he's going to come back next year with an MVP season! If he does, so be it. I'll take the risk of having him doing that for another team than keeping him here for 4 more years of popping up the ball. A designated hitter that can't hit. A man that can't hit being paid 40 million dollars. I don't care what he did in the past, the only hurting he'll be doing is on our playoff chances.


Wow...Konerko hit HR in the home run derby? He can hit batting practice pitchers trying to set him up well out of the park? Dear lord! He must be a god! Screw Thomas! I mean he wasnt even at that HR Derby, shows how much he sucks..........Frankly this is just a terrible argument....simply horrible.....I feel dumber for having read this...that is time in my life I can never get back

Lip Man 1
09-25-2002, 11:42 AM
"Salary drive, they've got nothing to play for..."-Corie Koskie

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"Salary drive, they've got nothing to play for..."-Corie Koskie

Yeah, but for Frank every year is a salary drive, so it isn't all bad. If he can come back next year and start strong and then finish strong (due to another salary drive) then all will be well...

Question about the DSC - If it is invoked, then it is invoked for the whole length of the contract, and nothing Frank can do can change that fact, correct? I mean if it is invoked after this season and next year he puts up MVP numbers, then he still gets paid the lower rate in 2004, right?

bc2k
09-25-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Wow...Konerko hit HR in the home run derby? He can hit batting practice pitchers trying to set him up well out of the park? Dear lord! He must be a god! Screw Thomas! I mean he wasnt even at that HR Derby, shows how much he sucks..........Frankly this is just a terrible argument....simply horrible.....I feel dumber for having read this...that is time in my life I can never get back

I don't know if I can believe my argument isn't up to the standards of a man that quotes Adam Sandler movies. What can't you understand? Konerko gives up dozens of atbats for the team instead of swinging for the home run to pad his stats like Thomas does. But maybe you don't see this because instead of watching Sox games you're watching Billy Madison.

RKMeibalane
09-25-2002, 11:55 AM
Konerko has not had good second half. That's why Frank has more homeruns than he does. As usual, bc2k is doing his best to make Thomas look bad. Frank has been hitting the ball well over the past month. I wish people would just leave him alone and let him hit. That alone will go a long way towards helping this team challenge for a division crown next season.

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
The reason hurt has more homeruns than Konerko is because Paul gives up at bats for the team. For example, with a runner second with no outs Konerko will ground the ball to the right side of the infield. All season long Konerko has hit behind the runner, playing unselfish baseball.

If Konerko didn't play team baseball, he'd have more home runs than Thomas. Remember the home run derby? Paul just happens to like helping his team win while buckles is only concerned with his personal stats.

The difference between Frankie and the baseball player is that Paulie makes use of his outs while skirt pops the ball up.

Thomas hitting one more home run than Konerko doesn't mean he's not diminished clause material.

Don't look now but Konerko has 172 hits to Frankie's 127. Paul has 104 rbi to Frank's 91. Konerko has 68 k's to hurt's 109! Like I said, swinging for the fences.

But Frank is sooo patient at the plate and still draws his walks! Despite all his walks, Konerko still has a higher on base percentage, and slugging, and a batting average 58 points higher! I'm not impressed with Thomas's walks because he strikes out much more often.

But hurt has been hot this past month and he's going to come back next year with an MVP season! If he does, so be it. I'll take the risk of having him doing that for another team than keeping him here for 4 more years of popping up the ball. A designated hitter that can't hit. A man that can't hit being paid 40 million dollars. I don't care what he did in the past, the only hurting he'll be doing is on our playoff chances.

I agree that PK has been a much better hitter this year than has Big Frank. But that isn't really the issue, is it? The question is whether he has been good enough to want to keep around. Since he has never been a guy with big 1st half/2nd half discrepancies, I think the best conclusion concerning his recent surge is that he's finally got his timing and strength back from what was a severe injury that cost him an entire year. He has a 900 OPS in the 2nd half -- doesn't sound to me like a "man that can't hit." He has 28 HRs and 91 RBIs -- doesn't sound to me like a guy who is "only hurting our playoff chances." Frank has a decent OBP and good power numbers. Who do we have in the organization that could step up next year and replace those numbers? I don't think we have do (LTP may in a few years, but its his numbers at AAA weren't as good as Frank's in the majors this year). We also have a rational basis to believe that Frank could put up even better numbers (maybe even significantly better numbers) next year (based upon his 2nd half and based upon his track record). Taking all of this into consideration, I don't see how you can rationally conclude that the Sox should dump him.

FanOf14
09-25-2002, 12:03 PM
Konerko hasn't had a great second half, no. But since we are giving Thomas the first half as a recovery, why is there no mercy for Konerko who's been playing on a foot that reportedly has a stress fracture? He had one in May of 2000 (I think, it was 2000, might have been 1999). I wonder what is causing these to happen.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Konerko hasn't had a great second half, no. But since we are giving Thomas the first half as a recovery, why is there no mercy for Konerko who's been playing on a foot that reportedly has a stress fracture? He had one in May of 2000 (I think, it was 2000, might have been 1999). I wonder what is causing these to happen.

No one's ripping Paulie. But, Paulie doesn't have a DSC hanging over his head and a debate about whether to keep him or not floating around...

Just using him as an example of someone who is considered a core of the team and asking, "Why should we dump Frank if he is hitting almost as well as Paulie and everyone wants to keep Paulie?"

RichH55
09-25-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't know if I can believe my argument isn't up to the standards of a man that quotes Adam Sandler movies. What can't you understand? Konerko gives up dozens of atbats for the team instead of swinging for the home run to pad his stats like Thomas does. But maybe you don't see this because instead of watching Sox games you're watching Billy Madison.

First off I didnt go all out for that quote, so nice job of picking it up...However your argument is ridled with holes and when one of your main points is the Home Run Derby results at the All Star game its not like Im arguing against Darrow here. Frank has never been a guy who "swings for the fences," his strength was hitting the ball hard or taking the walk. For a guy his size he could have hit many more HR than he has if he truly did swing for the HR all the time. You also love the hyperbole. Thomas apparently pops out everytime as to never advance the runner(can you think of any situation where a popout would advance the runner, if even by chance?), yet he apparently finds the time to strike out a ton too and still hit HRs and walk alot...so according to this line of thinking that would mean that every at-bat for Thomas yields about 3 results. Thats damn impressive:) You also said you thought there was a chance that Frank could at least regain some of his old form, but you dont want to risk that because of pop outs. That dimishined skills can be put into effect after any year provided he doesnt play well(though even if he qualified for the awards he needs to beat the clause I get the feeling you would still want him gone)...so why wouldnt you take the chance that Frank can turn it around next year(or more likely keep up what he has been doing)? For his potential that contract isnt overly high(I mean Rolen just signed for like 2 million more a year than Thomas), and if Thomas does leave via FA A) you didnt get anything back for him, not even a draft pick B) chances are the money you save isnt going to sign Floyd, and/or wont net you a return as good as Frank(even Frank over the last few years) C) Could mean that you have to rush a prospect like LTP or whoever which could retard their growth, it simply gives you less to work with....

Map out every at bat this year and I think you are wrong about Frank not giving up any at bats....this is not to say Paul is not a great player.....Im a big Konerko fan, but his 2nd half has been a drop off, so I hope he picks it up next year after being signed longterm in the offseason

RichH55
09-25-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I agree that PK has been a much better hitter this year than has Big Frank. But that isn't really the issue, is it? The question is whether he has been good enough to want to keep around. Since he has never been a guy with big 1st half/2nd half discrepancies, I think the best conclusion concerning his recent surge is that he's finally got his timing and strength back from what was a severe injury that cost him an entire year. He has a 900 OPS in the 2nd half -- doesn't sound to me like a "man that can't hit." He has 28 HRs and 91 RBIs -- doesn't sound to me like a guy who is "only hurting our playoff chances." Frank has a decent OBP and good power numbers. Who do we have in the organization that could step up next year and replace those numbers? I don't think we have do (LTP may in a few years, but its his numbers at AAA weren't as good as Frank's in the majors this year). We also have a rational basis to believe that Frank could put up even better numbers (maybe even significantly better numbers) next year (based upon his 2nd half and based upon his track record). Taking all of this into consideration, I don't see how you can rationally conclude that the Sox should dump him.


Very nicely put

FanOf14
09-25-2002, 12:13 PM
Voodoo - go to whitesox.com; there is a thread about trading carlos or paulie (not the first one this year either). My question about Thomas is whether he can produce when the team still has a chance. I am more than willing to give him this year as rehab, but if does the same thing next year, producing when the team is basically out of it, I wouldn't be sure about having him around for 2004, but with his contract, i am sure he will be. Did anyone see the interview w/ FT last night before the game? If you did, what did you think of it?

maurice
09-25-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
The reason hurt has more homeruns than Konerko is because Paul gives up at bats for the team.

Let's test that theory. I don't have a generic stat for advancing a runner while making an out, but I do have the following 2002 stats that reflect power and may reflect situational hitting:

Player: PK/FT
AB: 558/508
HR: 27/28
SF: 7/10
GIDP: 16/10

Fans can draw their own conclusions (probably depending upon their particular bias). My conclusions are: (1) both players are pretty good situational hitters; and (2) Paulie has underachieved as a power hitter (not a good thing for an AL 1B). He's never hit more than 32 HRs in a ML season. (By comparison, Frank has hit 35+ six times.)

Hopefully, Paulie will turn that around next year and put up 40+ HRs without any decline in his other stats, but folks have been waiting for that since he was called up in '97, and his power stats do not reflect an upward curve.

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Let's test that theory. I don't have a generic stat for advancing a runner while making an out, but I do have the following 2002 stats that reflect power and may reflect situational hitting:

Player: PK/FT
AB: 558/508
HR: 27/28
SF: 7/10
GIDP: 16/10

Fans can draw their own conclusions (probably depending upon their particular bias). My conclusions are: (1) both players are pretty good situational hitters; and (2) Paulie has underachieved as a power hitter (not a good thing for an AL 1B). He's never hit more than 32 HRs in a ML season. (By comparison, Frank has hit 35+ six times.)

Hopefully, Paulie will turn that around next year and put up 40+ HRs without any decline in his other stats, but folks have been waiting for that since he was called up in '97, and his power stats do not reflect an upward curve.

As I understand it, PK has had a pretty painful nagging foot injury in the second half. If he had been healthy, I think he would have hit 5-10 more dingers.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Voodoo - go to whitesox.com; there is a thread about trading carlos or paulie (not the first one this year either). My question about Thomas is whether he can produce when the team still has a chance. I am more than willing to give him this year as rehab, but if does the same thing next year, producing when the team is basically out of it, I wouldn't be sure about having him around for 2004, but with his contract, i am sure he will be. Did anyone see the interview w/ FT last night before the game? If you did, what did you think of it?

You are arguning a point from another message board here? Why?

I don't see anyone in this thread or any others suggesting that Paulie should be traded or dumped. I don't care if you want to defend Paul here or anywhere, but no one I see is attacking him (though Maurice's last post is as close as it comes...)

FanOf14
09-25-2002, 12:18 PM
hold2dibber: it was reported that he has a stress fracture in his left foot.

voodoo: relax. I've seen similar posts here as well.

bc2k
09-25-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


You're right in saying Thomas's diminished skills clause shouldn't be decided by what Konerko does. I was defending Konerko.

I believe the diminished clause expires this year or the next. So there is a time limit where if it isn't used, his contract becomes guaranteed through 2006. That scares me. Thomas might put up respectable numbers in 2003 - maybe even 2004. But what about '05 and '06. With a 10 million per year automatic out in the lineup, that kills any hope of postseason appearance. Even if Thomas had Maggs-like numbers this season, I'd still be worried about being stuck with his later performances.

Basically, I'm scared of being stuck with a 10 million dollar automatic out. Although I have no proof that he won't be an MVP from 2003-2006 and carry the team to the Series. I feel the diminished skills clause is just something that should be heavily considered. His age through 2006, past performances, and salary don't leave me with a feeling of optimism.

IMHO, I would invoke the clause and spend the 40 million on the team's weakest link--pitching.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
As I understand it, PK has had a pretty painful nagging foot injury in the second half. If he had been healthy, I think he would have hit 5-10 more dingers.

Even so, Paulie's numbers are fine. He hits for power, for average, he does do an excellent job of situational hitting and beyond that he is a team leader. Why are we debating Paulie? If Frank has more HR's than Konerko, that is good for Frank, not bad for Konehead...

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
hold2dibber: it was reported that he has a stress fracture in his left foot.

voodoo: relax. I've seen similar posts here as well.

I wasn't upset. I was just curious... Yeah, everyone gets ripped on when they struggle...

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't know if I can believe my argument isn't up to the standards of a man that quotes Adam Sandler movies. What can't you understand? Konerko gives up dozens of atbats for the team instead of swinging for the home run to pad his stats like Thomas does. But maybe you don't see this because instead of watching Sox games you're watching Billy Madison.

C'mon Billy Madison was pretty good! You sure knew right where the quote came from! :D:

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Let me "devil's advocate" a bit...the majority of posters on this board (me included) have bashed Royce Clayton for not putting up his improved numbers until the season was lost.

But Frank has, too.

Might Frank's surge in hitting have something to do with the fact that there's really no pressure on him anymore, or at least there is a lot less of it?

Like I said, devil's advocating...

Royce never exactly came close to 30 HRs or 100 RBI.

cheeses_h_rice
09-25-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Royce never exactly came close to 30 HRs or 100 RBI.

Nor did anyone expect him to do so.

My point is, both players didn't perform up to THEIR respective potential early in the season, and only started to do better once the Sox were effectively out of the race. Sure, I think Frank has probably been held back due to the injury, but doesn't part of his problem seem to be mental? Think about his performance in the 2000 playoffs, and his choke job down the stretch in 2000 in the AL MVP race vs. Giambi. In recent years he hasn't fared all that well when the heat is on.

Iguana775
09-25-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Nor did anyone expect him to do so.

My point is, both players didn't perform up to THEIR respective potential early in the season, and only started to do better once the Sox were effectively out of the race. Sure, I think Frank has probably been held back due to the injury, but doesn't part of his problem seem to be mental? Think about his performance in the 2000 playoffs, and his choke job down the stretch in 2000 in the AL MVP race vs. Giambi. In recent years he hasn't fared all that well when the heat is on.

i think royce DID perform to his standards. lol. :D:

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Nor did anyone expect him to do so.

My point is, both players didn't perform up to THEIR respective potential early in the season, and only started to do better once the Sox were effectively out of the race. Sure, I think Frank has probably been held back due to the injury, but doesn't part of his problem seem to be mental? Think about his performance in the 2000 playoffs, and his choke job down the stretch in 2000 in the AL MVP race vs. Giambi. In recent years he hasn't fared all that well when the heat is on.

Well, the whole team choked down the stretch in 2000, Frank's not alone there. What do you mean he struggled in the playoffs? He was our offensive MVP with 4 walks! :D:

The difference between Thomas & Clayton is that Thomas has proven in the past that he can put up these type of numbers over the course of a season, when healthy. His 2nd half "garbage-time" numbers are not out of line from his normal career averages (other than batting average, which is still down).

Dadawg_77
09-25-2002, 01:21 PM
The question should be, can Frank put up Frank like numbers. If he can, he is the only one in the Sox lineup that can and a bargain at 10 million a year. If the Sox believe he can, they should keep him without a doubt. If they don't then they need to evaluate what they think Frank can do and then decide from there what to do. If the Sox think he can put up Mags like numbers they would probably keep him around.

Iwritecode
09-25-2002, 01:50 PM
IMHO, this whole argument is silly. Even if the DSC is invoked, do you really think FT would find a team willing to pay him the amount he wants? If he stays with the Sox he will get his money. It may be later than sooner but he will still eventually get it. Plus, it's not like he can be traded without his ok. He's a 5 and 10 man remember. So basically I see three possible scenarios:

1. JR invokes the clause, FT tests the FA market, doesn't see anything worthwhile, and comes back to collect his money.

2. JR doesn't invoke the clause and FT collects his money.

3. JR renegotiates his contract for a lesser yearly amount with some incentives thrown in.

bc2k
09-25-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
IMHO, this whole argument is silly. Even if the DSC is invoked, do you really think FT would find a team willing to pay him the amount he wants? If he stays with the Sox he will get his money. It may be later than sooner but he will still eventually get it. Plus, it's not like he can be traded without his ok. He's a 5 and 10 man remember. So basically I see three possible scenarios:

1. JR invokes the clause, FT tests the FA market, doesn't see anything worthwhile, and comes back to collect his money.

2. JR doesn't invoke the clause and FT collects his money.

3. JR renegotiates his contract for a lesser yearly amount with some incentives thrown in.

If Frank has the DSC invoked yet decides to come back just for the money, JR can threaten to keep him in the minors for the rest of his contract. This way if Frank ever wants to play in the majors before 2007 he'll take a free agent contract with another team.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If Frank has the DSC invoked yet decides to come back just for the money, JR can threaten to keep him in the minors for the rest of his contract. Where do you get this? Is there some provision in the diminished skills clause that I haven't heard of? Because otherwise they certainly cannot send Frank to the minors. It would violate the CBA.

Dadawg_77
09-25-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If Frank has the DSC invoked yet decides to come back just for the money, JR can threaten to keep him in the minors for the rest of his contract. This way if Frank ever wants to play in the majors before 2007 he'll take a free agent contract with another team.

You post is totally wrong.

The minute the Sox send Frank to the minors, he leaves. I guess which is what you want. The issue you missed which makes your post wrong is if Franks leaves, because of the CBA, his contract is guarantee. Thus the Sox will have to pay him and he doesn't have to go to the minors. Frank can sign with another team, and the Sox still have to pay him, minus what the other team pays (I think on the minus part) So Jerry can't threaten the minors.

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
IMHO, this whole argument is silly. Even if the DSC is invoked, do you really think FT would find a team willing to pay him the amount he wants? If he stays with the Sox he will get his money. It may be later than sooner but he will still eventually get it. Plus, it's not like he can be traded without his ok. He's a 5 and 10 man remember. So basically I see three possible scenarios:

1. JR invokes the clause, FT tests the FA market, doesn't see anything worthwhile, and comes back to collect his money.

2. JR doesn't invoke the clause and FT collects his money.

3. JR renegotiates his contract for a lesser yearly amount with some incentives thrown in.

I think there is another possibility (maybe even probability) if the DSC is invoked: Frank finds another deal elsewhere, for less than he'd get total under his Sox deal, but with more money up front and lots of incentives. For example, a team might offer him a 3 year deal at about $6 mm/year with the possibility of earning maybe $1-$3 mm more per year in incentives. That may be more attractive to him than swallowing his pride and returning here. Much depends on for how long the money would be deferred under the Sox contract after the DSC is invoked. I guess my point is, I think there is a real possibility that he leaves if the DSC is invoked, particularly in light of his strong second half performance and power numbers this year.

hold2dibber
09-25-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If Frank has the DSC invoked yet decides to come back just for the money, JR can threaten to keep him in the minors for the rest of his contract. This way if Frank ever wants to play in the majors before 2007 he'll take a free agent contract with another team.

Your post assumes that if the DSC is invoked, that necessarily means the Sox want Frank gone. I think they'd love to have him back if they can defer most of his $ over the long term.

A quesiton for you: if the Sox do invoke the clause and are able to defer his salary (thereby, in theory, providing the club with the opportunity to devote much greater financial resources to pitching over the next few years), would you want Frank back?

Dadawg_77
09-25-2002, 03:40 PM
This is an issue I remeber from the CBA talks, of when deferred salaries have to be paid by. If I remember correctly, MLB agreed that deferred salaries have to be paid with in two year of being deferred. If this is true, how does it effect Frank's DSC? Does the CBA or MLB rules supersede a clauses in a players contract? So would the DSC just delay the payment of Frank's 10 million by a couple of years?

WinningUgly!
09-25-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Where do you get this? Is there some provision in the diminished skills clause that I haven't heard of? Because otherwise they certainly cannot send Frank to the minors. It would violate the CBA.

Exactly! Plus we all know JR a little better than this. If he's paying Frank $40 mil over the next 4 seasons, you can bet your ass he'll have him in the lineup everyday. Look at the Clayton situation...a measly(compared to $40) $4.5 mil was enough to keep Crede at Charlotte & Valentin bouncing around & out of position all season. The same thing happened last year as well, with Herb Perry getting chased outta town.

bc2k
09-25-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Your post assumes that if the DSC is invoked, that necessarily means the Sox want Frank gone. I think they'd love to have him back if they can defer most of his $ over the long term.

A quesiton for you: if the Sox do invoke the clause and are able to defer his salary (thereby, in theory, providing the club with the opportunity to devote much greater financial resources to pitching over the next few years), would you want Frank back?

His salary will count against payroll in a later year, correct?

bc2k
09-25-2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Where do you get this? Is there some provision in the diminished skills clause that I haven't heard of? Because otherwise they certainly cannot send Frank to the minors. It would violate the CBA.


Originally posted by Dadawg_77


You post is totally wrong.

The minute the Sox send Frank to the minors, he leaves. I guess which is what you want. The issue you missed which makes your post wrong is if Franks leaves, because of the CBA, his contract is guarantee. Thus the Sox will have to pay him and he doesn't have to go to the minors. Frank can sign with another team, and the Sox still have to pay him, minus what the other team pays (I think on the minus part) So Jerry can't threaten the minors.


I made it up not knowing the CBA rules. It was a theory of mine to deter Thomas from staying and keeping his deferred 40 million. The CBA says Thomas cannot go back to the minors?

Dadawg_77
09-25-2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
His salary will count against payroll in a later year, correct?

Yes, no and maybe, in a P/L statement (what would go to the IRS) the full 10 million will count no matter if the Sox invoked the DSC or not. It would help cash flow, and not sure how it would effect the salary total for luxury tax purposes.

Dadawg_77
09-25-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I made it up not knowing the CBA rules. It was a theory of mine to deter Thomas from staying and keeping his deferred 40 million. The CBA says Thomas cannot go back to the minors?

Yes, after player is past his six years, the team can't send him back. So a vet like Frank doesn't have to go to the minors if he doesn't want to. This doesn't include rehab time which is a separate issue then what you are suggesting.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I made it up not knowing the CBA rules. It was a theory of mine to deter Thomas from staying and keeping his deferred 40 million. The CBA says Thomas cannot go back to the minors? Wow, you have seriously damaged whatever credibility you had left.

After X number of years of major league service, teams can no longer send players to the minors. They can keep them or release them (still paying them) until their contract runs out. Just like when they released Royce. Even before the X number of years, they have a number of "options" they can exercise on sending them up and down. Once the player is out of options, they can only keep him or release him, again paying the money due on the contract either way.

You haven't been able to send a veteran ballplayer down to the minors just to mess with him for many decades.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think there is another possibility (maybe even probability) if the DSC is invoked: Frank finds another deal elsewhere, for less than he'd get total under his Sox deal, but with more money up front and lots of incentives. For example, a team might offer him a 3 year deal at about $6 mm/year with the possibility of earning maybe $1-$3 mm more per year in incentives. That may be more attractive to him than swallowing his pride and returning here. Much depends on for how long the money would be deferred under the Sox contract after the DSC is invoked. I guess my point is, I think there is a real possibility that he leaves if the DSC is invoked, particularly in light of his strong second half performance and power numbers this year.

Two points...

1)It will depend on what the present value (PVA) of the defered payments is. Depending on how long the money is defered for and what interest rate it is earning before being paid out, Frank might be able to break even for as little as $6 million/year (anyone know what the payment schedule looks like and when it begins?)

2)Why can't JR negotiate a lower contract, or something in between - Frank gets $4 million a year and the rest is defered (just a higher current salary than the current DSC slary of $250K yet still less than the $6.7M he is making now) or try to come up with a PVA of the contract and offer Frank that straight up.

Of course if the deferment period is short or the money is presently earning interest, it changes the whole equation and Frank will be hard pressed to beat the contract even with the DSC invoked...

Okay, one more point...

The 5/10 rule swings both ways. Frank might not want a trade, but the Sox do have the DSC to coerce him into accepting a trade. Also, if Frank is traded, the contract is guaranteed up front - no DSC allowed, so it would be in his financial best interests to accept any trade the Sox could work out...

I'm obviously hoping he returns to the Sox next year and JR has the brains to not invoke the clause...

Jjav829
09-25-2002, 05:02 PM
Can someone who is good at finding stats find the second half numbers comapred to their first half numbers for players who participate in the HR Derby? Whether individual or average or whatever you can find. I know there is a normally a dropoff in production for those who go to the HR Derby. It's too bad for Konerko. He was on pace to have such a good season and ever since the HR Derby, hes been bad. Doesn't help that he hurt his foot either.

Paulwny
09-25-2002, 05:49 PM
Question ??????????????
I find this confusing, as I understand the mlb rules,
1) Mlb no longer allows owners to give players incentive contracts, that are for hr's, ba', rbi's, sb, etc
2) Owners are allowed to give incentive contracts for games played, at-bats during a season, for pitchers, games started, games appeared in etc.

How is Frank's contract different then # 1 ?????

duke of dorwood
09-25-2002, 08:12 PM
Regarding his hitting, maybe, just maybe it took him a long time to figure out that he had to go with his power, pull the ball, until he got his stroke and timing back.

Bisco Stu
09-26-2002, 02:28 AM
Bottom line is, the team Frank Thomas is on in 2003 will be a playoff team.

Let's make sure it's the White Sox, shall we?

Iwritecode
09-26-2002, 12:18 PM
I found something interesting while browsing the Cubune.com

Thomas' contract, signed in 1997, gives the Sox the right to revise his base salary to $250,000 with $10.125 million deferred. Currently, he receives about $6.3 million per year with $4 million deferred. If Thomas terminates the contract after the Sox invoke the clause, the Sox would owe him $250,000 per year through 2006 and he becomes a free agent. Thomas has 45 days to sign elsewhere or else reinstate the contract with the $250,000 base, which would be $50,000 less than the new major-league minimum for next season.

So to everyone complaining that Thomas isn't "worth" 10 million a year and that they should get rid of him to pay guys like Burly and Konerko, is he "worth" 6.3 million a year? Cause that's how much he's actually making.

Also, I think that if they do invoke the clause it would be a slap in the face to Frank. He would actually be making less than the league minimum? How many 30/100 guys make that little? Even with a sub-par (for his standards at least) season? Besides that, if they do invoke it and he does leave via FA, does anyone really think JR will use the money to sign current players long-term? I mean, this is the same guy who wants to use the revenue-sharing money to "decrease debt". I got a bad feeling about this...

bc2k
09-26-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A quesiton for you: if the Sox do invoke the clause and are able to defer his salary (thereby, in theory, providing the club with the opportunity to devote much greater financial resources to pitching over the next few years), would you want Frank back?


I don't understand the whole deferring salary process. At what date is it deferred to? Will it count against payroll at a later time, impeding the club from spending money for free agents at a later date?

But I will say this: Frank's second half numbers are promising because they look like his normal production and his first half numbers were low because of his injury. I hope that's the case.
As the team currently stands, Frank Thomas is the best option for DH in 2003.

But if I were GM, I'd invoke the clause, use that 41 million to help sign Cliff Floyd and Greg Maddux. Lee would DH in '03 and since he's not signed past 2003, become expendable if Borchard is ready in '04. But I'm not GM and the odds of JR and KW doing that are very slim.

A more likely scenario would have KW and JR can tear up the DSC and not defer any of his salary, and in return take a year off of Frank's contract. The risk lessens with 30 million over three years as opposed to 40 million over 4 years.

voodoochile
09-26-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't understand the whole deferring salary process. At what date is it deferred to? Will it count against payroll at a later time, impeding the club from spending money for free agents at a later date?

But I will say this: Frank's second half numbers are promising because they look like his normal production and his first half numbers were low because of his injury. I hope that's the case.
As the team currently stands, Frank Thomas is the best option for DH in 2003.

But if I were GM, I'd invoke the clause, use that 41 million to help sign Cliff Floyd and Greg Maddux. Lee would DH in '03 and since he's not signed past 2003, become expendable if Borchard is ready in '04. But I'm not GM and the odds of JR and KW doing that are very slim.

A more likely scenario would have KW and JR can tear up the DSC and not defer any of his salary, and in return take a year off of Frank's contract. The risk lessens with 30 million over three years as opposed to 40 million over 4 years.

Why would Frank agree to that?

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
But if I were GM, I'd invoke the clause, use that 41 million to help sign ....... Greg Maddux. I can just see it; spend a ton of money on Maddux and he finally shows his age. This guy is a lock for HOF and is one of the best of all time, but his career is definitely past its peak.

Kilroy
09-26-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I can just see it; spend a ton of money on Maddux and he finally shows his age. This guy is a lock for HOF and is one of the best of all time, but his career is definitely past its peak.

And he's at 13 mil now. He ain't coming to the Sox and takin a pay cut!

RichH55
09-26-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
And he's at 13 mil now. He ain't coming to the Sox and takin a pay cut!


But the beauty of the bc2k plan is that you somehow get both Maddux and Floyd by dropping Thomas.....and then in the offseason Mags figures out Cold Fusion and Lee hits 5 Home Runs on unicorn day.....Its going to be a great year!

RKMeibalane
09-26-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If Frank has the DSC invoked yet decides to come back just for the money, JR can threaten to keep him in the minors for the rest of his contract. This way if Frank ever wants to play in the majors before 2007 he'll take a free agent contract with another team.

What are you talking about? There is no way Reinsdorf would send him to the minors. This is Frank Thomas we're talking about, not some obscure middle-infielder with a suspect glove and no power. I can appreciate and respect your opinions to a point, but this crosses the line. If you are going to argue against keeping Thomas on the Sox, then please use logic and critical thinking skills when you make a point. Don't start spewing out garbage.

guillen4life13
09-26-2002, 07:58 PM
i'm posting this in disgust with some of the things that have been said on this board.

look... we aren't talking about someone like Jose Canseco, who put up nice power numbers, but always had a bad BA. We're talking about a guy who has WON THE BATTING TITLE!!! (and for those of you who think that having a good batting average is selfish, you have a thing or two to learn). He has come close to winning the RBI title on a few occasions. He's been second in HR's, and in '94 I believe he was 2nd or 3rd in HRs. seriously, he is THE BEST offensive white sock, ever! It wasn't joe jackson or wheover else you want to make a case for. No one has been anywhere close to as consistent as the Hurt. Even when his BA hs been down, his RBI and HR's have been up.

And will you just look at the streak he's been on?!? It's almost obvious that he's back. and who honestly believe that this team is gonna do something good with the money Frank would be making? Jerry would probably spiff up his luxury suite, and if we're lucky, he'll hire another hot dog vendor. Cliff FLoyd?!? next thing you know, i'll be hearing you guys talk about landing manny ramirez or jason giambi. C'mon! This is White Sox Baseball!!! It's all about the benjamins (ah huh, yeah!).

I've said it before. if Thomas leaves and has an MVP caliber season, i'm gonna have to say I told you so. And honestly, if I were in his position, I'd split asap. the fans have consistently BOOED THE BEST PLAYER IN FRANCHISE HISTORY, after he's had a serious injury to one of the most important muscles for hitting.

And finally when he's back to form, you people won't accept that he's back, and he's gonna pulverize. you're just stuck under the impression that "oh, well if frank leaves, we'll be able to sign friggin Pedro Martinez."

god some of you seem to need rectal exams to find out where your head went.

WinningUgly!
09-26-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
But the beauty of the bc2k plan is that you somehow get both Maddux and Floyd by dropping Thomas.....and then in the offseason Mags figures out Cold Fusion and Lee hits 5 Home Runs on unicorn day.....Its going to be a great year!

Hello!!! Post of the week! :)