PDA

View Full Version : Steve Stone, Baseball Sage.


CuckTheFubs
09-24-2002, 09:25 AM
Steve Stone, Baseball Sage.

Monday night Steve Stone was on WGN's Sports Central with Dave Kaplan. A Sox fan called in. I believe the caller was Kaplan's brother. The caller mocked the Cubbies. Stone's response revealed that he really doesn't have a grip on what's going on now, he's relying on garbage.

Here are a couple examples of Stone's expertise...

1. "The Sox don't have anyone who can catch the ball," (the Sox defense is terrible).

Team Errors
Cubbies 109
Sox 96

The Sox rank as #11 as far as team errors, the Cubbies pull in at #20.
The Sox rank as #12 as far as Fielding Percentage, the Cubbies pull in at #23.

The Sox are by no means a good defensive team. However the Cubbies are ever worse than the Sox. Stoney, have you bothered to check your facts?

2. Stoney's love of Patterson.

Stoney said that Patterson is an excellent CF'er. Excellent? In what respect?

#21 in Range Factor.
#17 in Zone Factor.
#13 in Errors.
#17 in Put Outs.
#16 in Assists.
#17 in Total Chances.
#13 In Fielding Percentage.

Stoney then made a statement about Patterson excelling at every level. IIRC Patterson excelled in high school and A ball. After that I don't know if you could say that Patterson's excelled at every level.



Seems to me that a (former) Sox AA hitting coach scouted Patterson correctly 2 years ago.

"Before the mini-Sox (better known as the Birmingham Barons) met the mini-Cubs (West Tennessee Diamond Jaxx) in the opening game of the Southern League semifinals Wednesday night, I told Barons hitting coach Gregg Ritchie that the Cubs want Patterson to be their starting center fielder in 2001.

"Ritchie rolled his eyes and pretended to lock his lips with his index finger and thumb. He didn't want to knock the most-hyped kiddie Cubbie since Kerry Wood.

"Then Ritchie knocked, anyway.

""He's got raw skills, yes. He's a 'plus' runner. He has 'plus' power. But he's got a lot of holes in his bat," said Ritchie, who has seen Patterson 28 times this season. "He definitely has potential, but his outfield play needs to be better and his arm is shy of what you'd want. And that's the honest truth.""

From the Springfield's State Journal-Register, by Mike Nadel.

cheeses_h_rice
09-24-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by CuckTheFubs


Here are a couple examples of Stone's expertise...

1. "The Sox don't have anyone who can catch the ball," (the Sox defense is terrible).

Team Errors
Cubbies 109
Sox 96

The Sox rank as #11 as far as team errors, the Cubbies pull in at #20.
The Sox rank as #12 as far as Fielding Percentage, the Cubbies pull in at #23.

The Sox are by no means a good defensive team. However the Cubbies are ever worse than the Sox. Stoney, have you bothered to check your facts?


Seems like Stone is assessing the '02 Sox team based on what the '01 and '00 teams did. I've noticed overall better defensive play this year from just about every position except maybe catcher. That dog won't hunt, Stoney...

duke of dorwood
09-24-2002, 10:07 AM
Sounds like he is banal enough to return to describing Cub games next year

CuckTheFubs
09-24-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Seems like Stone is assessing the '02 Sox team based on what the '01 and '00 teams did. I've noticed overall better defensive play this year from just about every position except maybe catcher. That dog won't hunt, Stoney...

Stone's out of touch. I've heard other Sox fans call in and ask him Sox questions and he really has no clue what's going on with the Sox - and he should really just say so. Stone's too much of an arrogant poof to admit that though.

Stone's comments on the Sox defense, would have a little more credibility if he weren't involved in a Cubs/Sox debate. As it was though Stone was involved in a Cubs/Sox debate. Cubs fans have no foundation for mocking Sox D when theirs has been worse.

The pot calling the kettle black.

CuckTheFubs
09-24-2002, 12:13 PM
I forgot this, Stone mocked Frank Thomas for hitting .250.

Ok, Stone got that one stat right. And it's certainly true that Frank has had an off year. However, compare Frank to two of the saviors that were going to be part of the best 3-4-5 hitters in baseball Alou and McGriff.

Frank's stats compare to McGriff and aside from BA Frank's had a better year than Moses Alou.

NUCatsFan
09-24-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by CuckTheFubs
I forgot this, Stone mocked Frank Thomas for hitting .250.

Ok, Stone got that one stat right. And it's certainly true that Frank has had an off year. However, compare Frank to two of the saviors that were going to be part of the best 3-4-5 hitters in baseball Alou and McGriff.

Frank's stats compare to McGriff and aside from BA Frank's had a better year than Moses Alou.

Plus, don't forget that Frank is finally recovering from his injury last year. I would be interested in Frank's stats since, say, the ASB? I would bet that his second half has been a tremendous improvement over the first half.

Vsahajpal
09-24-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by CuckTheFubs
Steve Stone, Baseball Sage.

Monday night Steve Stone was on WGN's Sports Central with Dave Kaplan. A Sox fan called in. I believe the caller was Kaplan's brother. The caller mocked the Cubbies. Stone's response revealed that he really doesn't have a grip on what's going on now, he's relying on garbage.

Here are a couple examples of Stone's expertise...

1. "The Sox don't have anyone who can catch the ball," (the Sox defense is terrible).

Team Errors
Cubbies 109
Sox 96

The Sox rank as #11 as far as team errors, the Cubbies pull in at #20.
The Sox rank as #12 as far as Fielding Percentage, the Cubbies pull in at #23.

The Sox are by no means a good defensive team. However the Cubbies are ever worse than the Sox. Stoney, have you bothered to check your facts?

2. Stoney's love of Patterson.

Stoney said that Patterson is an excellent CF'er. Excellent? In what respect?

#21 in Range Factor.
#17 in Zone Factor.
#13 in Errors.
#17 in Put Outs.
#16 in Assists.
#17 in Total Chances.
#13 In Fielding Percentage.

Stoney then made a statement about Patterson excelling at every level. IIRC Patterson excelled in high school and A ball. After that I don't know if you could say that Patterson's excelled at every level.



Seems to me that a (former) Sox AA hitting coach scouted Patterson correctly 2 years ago.

"Before the mini-Sox (better known as the Birmingham Barons) met the mini-Cubs (West Tennessee Diamond Jaxx) in the opening game of the Southern League semifinals Wednesday night, I told Barons hitting coach Gregg Ritchie that the Cubs want Patterson to be their starting center fielder in 2001.

"Ritchie rolled his eyes and pretended to lock his lips with his index finger and thumb. He didn't want to knock the most-hyped kiddie Cubbie since Kerry Wood.

"Then Ritchie knocked, anyway.

""He's got raw skills, yes. He's a 'plus' runner. He has 'plus' power. But he's got a lot of holes in his bat," said Ritchie, who has seen Patterson 28 times this season. "He definitely has potential, but his outfield play needs to be better and his arm is shy of what you'd want. And that's the honest truth.""

From the Springfield's State Journal-Register, by Mike Nadel.

I saw Patterson play quite a few times for Lansing, and then at the Fall League, and his defense wasn't close to where it is now. He would take awful routes to balls hit in the gaps, he didn't pick up the ball very well and would get bad jumps. He started playing baseball as a junior in HS I believe, he had been a star WR in Georgia, and Ga Tech offered him a football scholarship. Anyways, he's gotten considerably better in the OF, and I think he's amongst the best in the NL. Dave Campbell picked him as the runner up to Andruw for the NL Gold Glove.

The stats you mentioned are rather inconclusive. For example, he's #17 in putouts. This isn't attributed to the fact that he's a bad fielder, it's attributed to the fact the Cubs pitching staff is dominated by strikeout artists. The Cubs once again lead MLB in strikeouts, with 1,269, ahead of the 2nd place Diamondbacks by 23 K. The next closest team (Hou) is nearly 100 K away. When they aren't striking guys out, the majority of pitchers(logging major innings) on the staff are inducing groundball outs. Clement (1.58 G/F), Lieber (1.09 G/F), Zambrano (2.07 G/F), Cruz (1.06 G/F), Borowski (1.07 G/F), Alfonseca (1.93 G/F), even Wood is close to 1.

As a result, stats which are based on putouts (i.e. RF, ZR) are pretty meaningless. You can't make a putout if the ball isn't put in to play (strikeout), or beat into the ground (G/F). He received 304 total chances, and made 297 putouts, not that bad at all.

CuckTheFubs
09-24-2002, 04:30 PM
Dave Campbell picked Corey as a runner up for a Gold Glove. Well there you go that proves it beyond any question.

That's Campbell's opinion and we know the story on opinions...

I've watched a lot of Cub games and I have my opinion. I know a few Cub fans who are critical of Patterson's defense too . Jimmy Piersall is guy who regularly played CF in MLB, unlike you, me or Dave Campbell. Piersall has been critical of Patterson's defense as well. Of course Jimmy regularly changes his opinion. Jimmy now says that he likes the Sox starting staff over your Cubs.

Patterson sure should be a Gold Glove candidate, because he sure hasn't showed that he's playing on account of his bat.

btw, Stone also apologized for Patterson saying that Patterson is 22 years old. No Stone Patterson is 23.

Vsahajpal
09-24-2002, 04:51 PM
The biggest question mark is his plate selectivity, and it will surely take a few years for him to put up respectable ratios. He played the vast majority of the season at 22, he turned 23 in August. Apart from that though, 1/3 of his hits went for extra-bases which is a very promising sign, and he's a wonderful baserunner who will put pressure on the defense. He'll be a very useful player for a long time, but what the only way he'll ever develop into a great player is if he improves his plate discipline, which can be a very difficult thing to do for such a raw player.

Defensively, I know he's good. You're not very objective so I don't value your opinion over those of scouts I've talked to, and various scouting reports I've been able to read, and not my own either :)

Of course Jimmy regularly changes his opinion. Jimmy now says that he likes the Sox starting staff over your Cubs.

That's precisely why I don't listen to him. Didn't the Red Sox try to commit him to a mental ward?


As for the rest of Stone's arguments, I think with Crede at 3b, Jimenez at 2b, and Olivo behind the plate, the defense will improve quite a bit. Magglio's fine in right, I think Borchard can play an adequate CF. The only questions are in left and SS.

RichH55
09-24-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
The biggest question mark is his plate selectivity, and it will surely take a few years for him to put up respectable ratios. He played the vast majority of the season at 22, he turned 23 in August. Apart from that though, 1/3 of his hits went for extra-bases which is a very promising sign, and he's a wonderful baserunner who will put pressure on the defense. He'll be a very useful player for a long time, but what the only way he'll ever develop into a great player is if he improves his plate discipline, which can be a very difficult thing to do for such a raw player.

Defensively, I know he's good. You're not very objective so I don't value your opinion over those of scouts I've talked to, and various scouting reports I've been able to read, and not my own either :)

Of course Jimmy regularly changes his opinion. Jimmy now says that he likes the Sox starting staff over your Cubs.

That's precisely why I don't listen to him. Didn't the Red Sox try to commit him to a mental ward?


As for the rest of Stone's arguments, I think with Crede at 3b, Jimenez at 2b, and Olivo behind the plate, the defense will improve quite a bit. Magglio's fine in right, I think Borchard can play an adequate CF. The only questions are in left and SS.



D in LF is not that big of a deal,so I dont think that is anything to worry about...and Im begrudingly accepting the fact that we wont see LTP til midseason next year, though to characterize Rowand as anything more than adequate is quite charitable, so same difference

CuckTheFubs
09-24-2002, 05:11 PM
I may not be objective on rating Patterson’s defense, but neither is Stone - who knows which direction the wind is blowing. I don’t know that I trust your objectivity on Cub “talent” either.

IMHO Patterson's defense has been average to good. Offensively he had a promising start and then the pitchers seem to have made adjustments. Patterson’s got a huge swing for a little man. Very few BB and way too many K's for a guy who's not shown much power. Of course before Patterson can put pressure on opposing teams he has to get on base, something he has yet to show he can effectively do.

I just don’t think Patterson’s shown that he’s approached anything close to the hype.

Stone was wrong on the Sox defense, or at least it was a matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

I agree, I think the Sox D should be better next year. I don't expect that C-Lee will be our starting LF'er.

C-Lee is no Gold Glove, but he's not as bad as he's been made out to be (for the record I'd say he's below average to average.).