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Cheryl
09-23-2002, 01:09 PM
From ESPN:

CHICAGO -- Former Chicago White Sox general manager Ron Schueler is leaving the organization after more than a decade, the last two as a scout.

The White Sox won two divisional titles during Schueler's 10 years as general manager and finished second six times. He turned the job over to current GM Ken Williams after the 2000 season.

Schueler says he wants to run a team again and will be looking for a new general manager's job.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2002, 01:32 PM
I don't think "Jumbotron Ron" was anything to write home about, but Ken Williams makes him look like the second coming of Pat Gillick, Billy Beane and Brian Cashman all rolled into one!

Lip

captain54
09-23-2002, 01:39 PM
Same article in Monday's Sun-Times.....

sounded like Schuler was taking a shot at Kenny Williams.....

His comment was that the chemistry fell apart after the 2000 season, and even though Schuler was hired as an adviser to Williams, for the most part, Williams consulted with his own people and left Schuler out..

He also took partial responsibility for the Todd Ritchie fiasco, but said he was against giving up Josh Fogg...

Reiney also came out of his self imposed media exile and said that Schuler was hired as an adviser and consultant "to help in the development of Kenny Williams as GM."

Schuler was GM during some of the most questionable moves in Sox history: hiring Terry Bevington as manager, White Flag Trade, signing Jamie Navarro when Clemens was available, not fortifying Sox pitching in 2000 when staff fell apart in mid-season.

I'd have to say that he certainly is a lot better than this moron we have in there now....

Finally, interesting how Reiney admits he hired Williams as a "General Manager in development".....

Let's see.....Sox pitching staff in 2001 and 2002 was in development......Sox general manager in 2001 and 2002 in development.....TRANSLATION>>>>>> "they'll work for cheap while they're learning"

Wouldn't that also translate to mean Sox fans qualify for a rebate on tickets purchased at Major League prices for watching a product "in development"????

Tragg
09-23-2002, 07:21 PM
I cannot with good conscience say that Schueler was much better than Williams.
He might have been better in handling the draft and the minors - that I don't really know much about (I didn't like our 1st round draft choice - a relief pitcher - this year, for example; but again it may be a good pick).

Daver
09-23-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
I cannot with good conscience say that Schueler was much better than Williams.
He might have been better in handling the draft and the minors - that I don't really know much about (I didn't like our 1st round draft choice - a relief pitcher - this year, for example; but again it may be a good pick).

Ron Schueler was a slug,and Kenny Williams has been in sole charge of all draft picks since 1999,with Schuler as a consultant and the guy that handled the numbers as far as paying the signees.

RichH55
09-23-2002, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by daver
Ron Schueler was a slug,and Kenny Williams has been in sole charge of all draft picks since 1999,with Schuler as a consultant and the guy that handled the numbers as far as paying the signees.


So would that be a positive for KW then?

Lip Man 1
09-23-2002, 10:29 PM
I haven't looked into this in detail yet but Jumbo's going to be remembered (at least in my book) for these three "little" items...

1. Trading Sammy Sosa for George Bell
2. Trading Jack McDowell for Lyle Mouton
3. Trading Bob Wickman as part of the deal for Steve Sax

I also loved this quote by Uncle Jerry in the Sox press release on Schueler...

[B]"Ron Schueler deserves a great deal of the credit for helping orchestrate a decade of winning White Sox baseball"

Ummmm what happened in 1995, 1997, 1998 and 1999?

And how many playoff GAMES, let along playoff series did the team win during that time???

Like Carlton Fisk said in an interview on the PBS show Frontline in April 1994. "Reinsdorf makes most of his money when the team is in contention but doesn't win anything..."

That sums up our chairman's "philosophy" perfectly don't you think??

Lip

duke of dorwood
09-23-2002, 11:12 PM
Schueler was lucky to reap the benefits of players drafted before him too.

MarkEdward
09-24-2002, 12:00 AM
I think Schueler takes too much crap here. Sure, he wasn't a terrific GM, but he was above-average. The White Flag trade was great: he acquired one of the best relievers in baseball (Foulke), and a pitcher who had 3+ years of success in a Sox uniform (Howry). It's hardly Schu's fault that Barcelo's been constantly injured. He did rush Caruso to the majors, so I guess you could blame that on him. As for the McDowell trade, what did he do after his Sox career? One good season, then he fell apart.

Finally, Schueler never destroyed a team, like Kenny Williams has done to the 2000 Chicago White Sox.

hold2dibber
09-24-2002, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I think Schueler takes too much crap here. Sure, he wasn't a terrific GM, but he was above-average. The White Flag trade was great: he acquired one of the best relievers in baseball (Foulke), and a pitcher who had 3+ years of success in a Sox uniform (Howry). It's hardly Schu's fault that Barcelo's been constantly injured. He did rush Caruso to the majors, so I guess you could blame that on him. As for the McDowell trade, what did he do after his Sox career? One good season, then he fell apart.

Finally, Schueler never destroyed a team, like Kenny Williams has done to the 2000 Chicago White Sox.

I don't see how anyone could characterize the white flag trade as "great." Setting aside entirely the PR disaster aspect, the Sox basically got Foulke and Howry for Alvarez, Hernandez and Darwin. Foulke has been an above-average closer, Howry a serviceable set up man. It is true that both Alvarez and Hernandez were going to be gone at the end of the season anyway, but I still can't help but think that the Sox could have gotten more for a guy who was, at the time, a top of the rotation starter, a premier closer and a dependable back of the rotation guy. You deal that kind of pitching fire power to a team in contention and you should be getting back a lot more than Schueler got.

Kilroy
09-24-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't see how anyone could characterize the white flag trade as "great." Setting aside entirely the PR disaster aspect, the Sox basically got Foulke and Howry for Alvarez, Hernandez and Darwin. Foulke has been an above-average closer, Howry a serviceable set up man. It is true that both Alvarez and Hernandez were going to be gone at the end of the season anyway, but I still can't help but think that the Sox could have gotten more for a guy who was, at the time, a top of the rotation starter, a premier closer and a dependable back of the rotation guy. You deal that kind of pitching fire power to a team in contention and you should be getting back a lot more than Schueler got.

You can only say this with the benifit of hindsight.

Procol Harum
09-24-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't see how anyone could characterize the white flag trade as "great." Setting aside entirely the PR disaster aspect

But we need to remember that this is key to gauging the "success" of the WFT, too. That dimension of this episode was a true disaster which erased whatever amount of good will had been regained after Sox fan anger over JR's role (even if it was, as JR and his defenders protest, overblown) in the '94 strike. And it's effect also had a domino effect in terms of it's fueling further slippage of the team in this market, which led to stagnant attendance, then to further retrenchment of Reinsdorf's wallet, which has led to less effort to put a true championship contending product on the field and on and on....

Dan H
09-24-2002, 11:02 AM
The White Flag Trade can never be labeled as a good thing. It was a PR disaster coming so soon after the 1994 strike. We fans have been told to over it, but five years later we are still waiting for a World Series. That was the point of many fans over 40 such as myself. We are tired of promises and the White Flag was just that: a big promise. Besides, Schueler, in his so-called parting shots just did what the organizatoin always does: pass the buck. It's the fans' fault, the media's fault, the players' fault. While it is true that the players have to perform, who put them together? The time for making promises is over. Save the hope springs eternal stuff for goofball Cubs fans. The Sox should just go out and do it already. One World Series appearance since they threw the Series in 1919 in not good enough.

hold2dibber
09-24-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
You can only say this with the benifit of hindsight.

Well, yeah, but that's how a GM's record should be evaluated, no? I mean, I thought the Ritchie trade was a good trade - risky, but it made sense - at the time it was made. Now, however, I have no hesitation in labelling it a horrible disaster to date.

captain54
09-24-2002, 01:20 PM
When all is said and done, Schuler was hired by Reinsdorf to take the team from "Point B to Point A" , back in 91' when Larry Himes was let go because supposedly, he was only able to take the team from "Point C to Point B".....

Ironically, Schuler rode the wave of a division title and a few winning seasons on the back of Larry Himes' draft picks.....

Ultimately, did Schuler bring the team from "Point B to Point A"??
Hell no, just another example of Reinsdorf mumbo jumbo and talking down to the fans with idioitic theories on winning.....

And of course, another example of why Reinsdorf should take his no World series winning, spin doctoring, Kenny Williams lovin, bottom feeder payroll lovin, eroding attendance havin, Illinois State legislature blackmailin, butt.......and get out of the baseball business.....please.....

voodoochile
09-24-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by captain54
And of course, another example of why Reinsdorf should take his no World series winning, spin doctoring, Kenny Williams lovin, bottom feeder payroll lovin, eroding attendance havin, Illinois State legislature blackmailin, butt.......and get out of the baseball business.....please.....

Yeah, and the horse he rode in on too...

Lip Man 1
09-24-2002, 01:50 PM
A few more points on the "Ron Schueler Era."

1.)The question was asked 'what did Jack McDowell do when he left? One good year and that's it...'

Ummmm no, Jack had TWO good years winning in double figures in 95 for the Yankees and 96 with the Indians. But here's the point, in 96 the Sox blew a 4 1/2 game September Wild Card lead. A big reason was because THEY HAD NO 5TH STARTER. 5th starters that year (including a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti etc...) went 5-18!!!!! Couple that with a bullpen that set the record (since broken) for most blown saves and you had a recipe for disaster.

Now put McDowell's 10 or so wins and leadership on the staff. Do the Sox blow the Wild Card????? Also if they made the playoffs that year, perhaps they DON'T sign Albert Belle and they don't have to make the White Flag Deal.

2.)Please review my comprehensive (9 page) column on the White Flag Trade, you can find it in the archives. It includes actual quotes and headlines from the Chicago newspapers that day along with a review of how the players the Sox got turned out (ZERO All Star appearances from ANYBODY) and what happened to BOTH the Sox and Giant franchises afterwards.

3.) Bob Vanderberg, the assistant sports editor for the Tribune and author of three Sox books (he's a big fan) sent me this e-mail after we were discussing Ron Schueler's legacy...

Yes, the Sammy deal is at the top of the list............ getting Lyle Mouton, a minor-league OF-DH, for McDowell was a joke, a slap in the face to Sox fans, really............ belittling Ventura by offering him less than he was alreadfy making..stuff like that leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth when you talk about Schueler.......... Reinsdorf must've meant a half-decade of winning White Sox baseball"

4.)Finally another friend of mine reminded me that it was Ron Schueler who refused to compromise and sign top draft picks
Jeff Weaver and Bobby Hill simply because of his dislike for the agent Scott Boras. That's certainly a way to build a winning organization isn't it?

Lip

MarkEdward
09-24-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

1.)The question was asked 'what did Jack McDowell do when he left? One good year and that's it...'

Ummmm no, Jack had TWO good years winning in double figures in 95 for the Yankees and 96 with the Indians. But here's the point, in 96 the Sox blew a 4 1/2 game September Wild Card lead. A big reason was because THEY HAD NO 5TH STARTER. 5th starters that year (including a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti etc...) went 5-18!!!!! Couple that with a bullpen that set the record (since broken) for most blown saves and you had a recipe for disaster.

McDowell had an ERA of 5.11 in '96, not exactly ace material. He may have helped the Sox make the playoffs, but he wasn't of much use after 1995.


Now put McDowell's 10 or so wins and leadership on the staff. Do the Sox blow the Wild Card????? Also if they made the playoffs that year, perhaps they DON'T sign Albert Belle and they don't have to make the White Flag Deal.

What was wrong with signing Albert Belle? His 1997 season wasn't strong (for Belle's standards), but he had an amazing '98.


2.)Please review my comprehensive (9 page) column on the White Flag Trade, you can find it in the archives. It includes actual quotes and headlines from the Chicago newspapers that day along with a review of how the players the Sox got turned out (ZERO All Star appearances from ANYBODY) and what happened to BOTH the Sox and Giant franchises afterwards.

Giants since WFT: 2 Division titles.
Sox since WFT: 1 Division title.

It's not like the Giants became world beaters after the deal. As for All-Star appearances, Foulke should've been in 3 All Star games by now.

Baseball Prospectus analyzed deadline deals of past years. Considering what the Sox got for a closer, an overworked 27 year old, and an aging 4th starter, it was quite a steal.


4.)Finally another friend of mine reminded me that it was Ron Schueler who refused to compromise and sign top draft picks
Jeff Weaver and Bobby Hill simply because of his dislike for the agent Scott Boras. That's certainly a way to build a winning organization isn't it?

Yeah, I'm sure it's not because he was under any financial constraints or anything.

RichH55
09-24-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
McDowell had an ERA of 5.11 in '96, not exactly ace material. He may have helped the Sox make the playoffs, but he wasn't of much use after 1995.




What was wrong with signing Albert Belle? His 1997 season wasn't strong (for Belle's standards), but he had an amazing '98.




Giants since WFT: 2 Division titles.
Sox since WFT: 1 Division title.

It's not like the Giants became world beaters after the deal. As for All-Star appearances, Foulke should've been in 3 All Star games by now.

Baseball Prospectus analyzed deadline deals of past years. Considering what the Sox got for a closer, an overworked 27 year old, and an aging 4th starter, it was quite a steal.




Yeah, I'm sure it's not because he was under any financial constraints or anything.


Didnt we get draft pick compensation for boby seay, Weaver, and hill? Or is that my mind cluttered again?

Lip Man 1
09-24-2002, 09:29 PM
Giants since WFT: 2 Division titles.
Sox since WFT: 1 Division title.


Mark, a LOT more to it then that. The Giants are about to make the playoffs a 3rd time and just missed a 4th losing a playoff game for the Wild card spot to the Cubs.

Read my column again please because it's to much to go into here. It also involved getting Pac Bell built because the Giants showed they were SERIOUS about competing among other things. Also please read reinsdorf's direct quotes from that article.

Lip

Kilroy
09-24-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Giants since WFT: 2 Division titles.
Sox since WFT: 1 Division title.


Mark, a LOT more to it then that. The Giants are about to make the playoffs a 3rd time and just missed a 4th losing a playoff game for the Wild card spot to the Cubs.

That's true, but it wasn't/isn't because of Hernandez, Darwin, and Alvarez. As I seem to remember, those three only helped them get swept out of the playoffs in 97. And I have to add that they would have been in the playoffs had they not made that trade.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2002, 03:00 AM
You made my point for me. The Giants SHOWED the city, the organization, the players and the media they they were going to start being aggresive in trying to win.

Jeff Kent himself said that was his reaction when he heard about the deal.

That deal also convinced the city to get the infrastructure in place to get Pac Bell off the ground after ten years of failure. McGowan paid for the ballpark, the city did the rest.

Bingo, suddenly you have a team that's thriving.....all because of one trade that showed everybody the Giants were no longer going to be a patsy.

Lip

RichH55
09-25-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You made my point for me. The Giants SHOWED the city, the organization, the players and the media they they were going to start being aggresive in trying to win.

Jeff Kent himself said that was his reaction when he heard about the deal.

That deal also convinced the city to get the infrastructure in place to get Pac Bell off the ground after ten years of failure. McGowan paid for the ballpark, the city did the rest.

Bingo, suddenly you have a team that's thriving.....all because of one trade that showed everybody the Giants were no longer going to be a patsy.

Lip


Well Reinsdorf did everything in his power to fanagle a stadium as well...both got their stadiums and what was it 1997? when Belle and Navarro came here? Seems to be that both teams made similar attempts, but the Giants moves worked out better(more toward their intended purpose)...also helps that their superstar kicked it up a notch, while ours has been injury prone and not up to his usual standards.....It will be interesting to see what the Giants do this offseason regarding Kent

captain54
09-25-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well Reinsdorf did everything in his power to fanagle a stadium as well...both got their stadiums.

Big difference there.....

The Giants built a cool looking retro stadium, and they're packing em' in....

The White Sox (Reinsdorf) built a stadium that is outdated now 11 years after it was built, and is undergoing renovation....what's retro about it?? a few pinwheels on top of the jumbo tron....

thanks Jerry.....Go back to Brooklyn......

MarkEdward
09-25-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
[B]You made my point for me. The Giants SHOWED the city, the organization, the players and the media they they were going to start being aggresive in trying to win.

So you're saying that if the Sox traded Chris Honel, Edwin Almonte, and Brian West to the Royals for Roberto Hernandez, Jeff Suppan, and Jason Grimsley, you'd believe this organization is "being aggresive in trying to win?"


That deal also convinced the city to get the infrastructure in place to get Pac Bell off the ground after ten years of failure. McGowan paid for the ballpark, the city did the rest.

Peter McGowan campaigned for a publicly-funded stadium aggresively. He finally built Pac Bell when he knew he wasn't going to get the tax-payer park. You're crazy if you think the WFT had *anything* to do with this.

Bingo, suddenly you have a team that's thriving.....all because of one trade that showed everybody the Giants were no longer going to be a patsy.

Yes, Brian Sabean, Barry Bonds, Jeff Kent, Matt Williams, and Livan Hernandez had nothing to do with the success of the Giants.

voodoochile
09-25-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yes, Brian Sabean, Barry Bonds, Jeff Kent, Matt Williams, and Livan Hernandez had nothing to do with the success of the Giants.

Beyond all that, when is the last time the Giants had a really lousy season? Haven't they been over .500 for most of the last 15 years? I admit this is from memory, so if I am wrong, please feel free to correct me, but we are talking about one of the more successful regular season teams for a long long time...

MarkEdward
09-25-2002, 05:18 PM
More Scheuler deals:

- Traded Jamie Navarro and John Snyder for Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin.
- Traded Matt Karchner for Jon Garland.
- Traded Mike Cameron for Paul Konerko.
- Traded Tanyon Sturtze for Tony Graffanino.
- Picked up Herbert Perry off waivers.
- Signed Kelly Wunsch.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2002, 06:57 PM
Mark, I'm not saying Schueler was extremely bad, for Chicago baseball over the last twenty years.

He was probably the 2nd best GM in the city behind Roland Hemond but the fact remains he was hired to get to a World Series, (re: Uncle jerry's point A to point B quote) in that he was a dismal faliure.

Plus he wound up giving the hated rivals the biggest drawing card they have and when the Sox desepartely needing pitching down the stretch in 2000, he did nothing...refusing to trade his can't miss prospects. (Most of whom from as far back as Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton, Brian Drahman etc did SQUAT)

and yes, assuming I was getting QUALITY in return (not the players you named), I'd deal my "can't miss kids" in a heartbeat. I want to win NOW, not ten years from now.

With another organization maybe I'd consider waiting, but not the Sox who are on their third "rebuilding" program, just since the 94 labor impasse.

Lip

Lip

Paulwny
09-25-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
He was probably the 2nd best GM in the city behind Roland Hemond but the fact remains he was hired to get to a World Series, (re: Uncle jerry's point A to point B quote) in that he was a dismal faliure.


Did JR give him the $$$$ to acquire fa's to go from pt. A to Pt. B ?

Lip Man 1
09-25-2002, 10:38 PM
Answer : No

But don't you think Schueler asked that question BEFORE he took the job?

If he didn't, then he is a fool.

If he did, then either JR lied to him or Schueler wanted the GM job so badly he took it anyway. If that's the case, then he knew what he was getting into and not being allowed to sign top players shouldn't be an excuse.

Lip

Daver
09-25-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


He was probably the 2nd best GM in the city behind Roland Hemond but the fact remains he was hired to get to a World Series, (re: Uncle jerry's point A to point B quote) in that he was a dismal faliure.



Schueler lived off the the players drafted by Jim Finks and Roland Hemond,and had the draft taken away from him in 1999 because of his his ineptitude to work with the scouting team.

Ron was a slug that was reluctant to ever make a move until the team was out of the playoff picture,and then jumping on winning teams making a playoff push for whatever he could get.

Ron Schueler was and still is a slug,I hope the rumor I hear about him going to Milwaukee as GM is true,it will guarantee five more years of pathetic Brewer baseball.

Jerry_Manuel
09-25-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by daver
Ron Schueler was and still is a slug,I hope the rumor I hear about him going to Milwaukee as GM is true,it will guarantee five more years of pathetic Brewer baseball.

Doug Melvin was named GM of the BrewCrew.

Daver
09-25-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Doug Melvin was named GM of the BrewCrew.

Curses! Foiled again.....