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voodoochile
06-02-2019, 11:35 AM
Just a gut feeling... He's about to bust out big time in the next couple weeks.

Also curious about what people think about his play in LF. I know it was a big area of concern prior to his injury. For me he seems to be fine out there. Making the plays expected. His arm may never be great but if he can consistently learn to make the right throw it will be less of an issue. He also might become more accurate with practice. He's certainly got the athleticism down.

Finally - let's not allow this to turn into a shouting match please. I'm honestly looking for some feedback - especially from those who were most concerned earlier in the year what they think.

LakeShoreSox
06-02-2019, 11:43 AM
His jumping catch looked awfully similar to the one that injured him so my heart dropped when he went in the air but thankfully he was still 20 feet from the fence.

I agree with your gut feeling. He hasnít been driving the ball for a ton of xbh, but he has been hitting the ball very hard. He also learned pretty quickly to lay off the low sliders (which is something Abreu keeps bouncing between remembering and forgetting how to do). Yesterday, when Eloy popped out to short with runners in second and third, he threw the bat down in frustration because he was clearly seeing the ball well and just underestimated how much the pitch was hung. Although he didnít get the runs in it was nice to see the emotion.

Having him in LF isnít a necessity (at least not yet) but provides a lot of affordances with more flexibility at 1B and DH. Iím in the camp of have him learn out thereótime in the field in Charlotte after his injury seemed to do him well and I consider days that he learns in the outfield to be good for the rebuild.

Mohoney
06-02-2019, 11:52 AM
I would much prefer to find three better defensive outfielders who can hit enough to be major league regulars and limit Eloyís LF appearances to interleague play, days off for regulars, and filling in for injuries. That will take a few years, and it may not happen at all. In the meantime, stick him in LF and hold on for the ride.

voodoochile
06-02-2019, 12:03 PM
I would much prefer to find three better defensive outfielders who can hit enough to be major league regulars and limit Eloyís LF appearances to interleague play, days off for regulars, and filling in for injuries. That will take a few years, and it may not happen at all. In the meantime, stick him in LF and hold on for the ride.

Do you think he's doing better out there than when he started? Does he still give you a lot of reason for concern?

Mohoney
06-02-2019, 12:15 PM
Do you think he's doing better out there than when he started? Does he still give you a lot of reason for concern?
I havenít seen him in-person since his return. I see sliding catches on TV, but I donít see the routes being taken to get to the ball. Outfielders misplay themselves into great plays sometimes. I really canít say until I see it happen in front of me.

SBSoxFan
06-02-2019, 12:15 PM
He's looked much better since returning from the injury. It makes me wonder what happened / what was said to him when he was hurt and on rehab. Having said that, he just looks very un-athletic in the outfield. Watching him reminds me of the adage - "wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up." I think I must have heard that from either Hawk or Drysdale on some Sox broadcast many years ago.

He's such a big guy (6'4" I read), maybe he'll get better control in a couple of years, maybe not. It is difficult to understand how he was considered a 5-tool player, at least according to his wikipedia page.

My biggest concern would be, given that your 2 best players are on the same side of the infield, that one of the 3 is going to be seriously hurt at some point, similar to what happened with Raines and Guillen.

Regarding his offense, his swing looks long to me, but what the heck do I know?! Again, he has some long moving parts. It would be nice for a Sox' prospect to come up and make an immediate impact, like the Chavis kid in Boston. However, we all know first hand that that can be fool's gold too.

Grzegorz
06-02-2019, 01:10 PM
My biggest concern would be, given that your 2 best players are on the same side of the infield, that one of the 3 is going to be seriously hurt at some point, similar to what happened with Raines and Guillen.


Yep...

I_Liked_Manuel
06-02-2019, 02:26 PM
I still see bad routes being taken to balls, it's only a matter of time until he runs into the wall again imo

harwar
06-02-2019, 03:50 PM
He looks much more relaxed out there . his movements in the field were awkward, but he seems more fluid now . hoping that he can become a serviceable left fielder.

blandman
06-02-2019, 11:45 PM
He looks much more relaxed out there . his movements in the field were awkward, but he seems more fluid now . hoping that he can become a serviceable left fielder.


What Eloy are you watching? Watching today from left field, I saw a guy that jumped forward 5 seconds after a normal outfielder would move forward, allowing a routine fly ball to be a basehit.

He hasn't gotten better. And he doesn't look relaxed. He looks perplexed and bad. Very very bad.

Nellie_Fox
06-03-2019, 12:43 AM
Watching him reminds me of the adage - "wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up." I think I must have heard that from either Hawk or Drysdale on some Sox broadcast many years ago.That was Bob Ueker's answer when he was asked how he catches knuckleballs.

asindc
06-03-2019, 07:03 AM
He looks much more relaxed out there . his movements in the field were awkward, but he seems more fluid now . hoping that he can become a serviceable left fielder.

What Eloy are you watching? Watching today from left field, I saw a guy that jumped forward 5 seconds after a normal outfielder would move forward, allowing a routine fly ball to be a basehit.

He hasn't gotten better. And he doesn't look relaxed. He looks perplexed and bad. Very very bad.

He still looks bad, but recent games have looked better to me.

HomeFish
06-03-2019, 08:16 AM
He looks like a poor defender rather than an immediate threat to the safety of himself and others. This is progress.

XplodingScorbord
06-03-2019, 08:43 AM
He looks like a poor defender rather than an immediate threat to the safety of himself and others. This is progress.

This is correct. Letís also not lose sight of the fact that heís all of 22 years old. The fact that heís got advanced hitting skills does not mean his fielding is as advanced, and itís clearly not. However, with practice and repetition he can become a serviceable defender.

voodoochile
06-03-2019, 08:54 AM
This is correct. Letís also not lose sight of the fact that heís all of 22 years old. The fact that heís got advanced hitting skills does not mean his fielding is as advanced, and itís clearly not. However, with practice and repetition he can become a serviceable defender.

He's also becoming more aware of other defenders and more aggressive about patrolling his area while still managing to play within himself as near as I can tell from watching. It's going to be a learning and familiarization process with the infielders and Leury, but you can see signs it's coming. Part of the issue is both Anderson and Moncada are such aggressive players about making plays that they often outrun their own territory. Yoan is still learning he has to defer to the other defenders which was not the case when he was playing 2B nearly as often.

For me the jump from where Eloy was to start the season to where he is now seems dramatic. I thought at the time he was just trying too hard and the game was moving too fast for him. It seems to have slowed down now. It's one reason I expect his offense to take off soon.

SBSoxFan
06-03-2019, 02:05 PM
That was Bob Ueker's answer when he was asked how he catches knuckleballs.

Ah yes. That does sound familiar. I do believe I also heard Drysdale/Harrelson mention it too.

LITTLE NELL
06-03-2019, 02:17 PM
I can't really pass judgement as I haven't see that many Sox games on TV so far this year, I saw the replay of a nice catch on Sox video but it didn't show the route he took. The kid is 22 and sure as hell looks athletic so I'm thinking the Sox feel the same way and Eloy will spend some time in the instructional league and hopefully by the end of 2020 spring training he will be a serviceable left fielder.

Mohoney
06-03-2019, 02:24 PM
I can't really pass judgement as I haven't see that many Sox games on TV so far this year, I saw the replay of a nice catch on Sox video but it didn't show the route he took. The kid is 22 and sure as hell looks athletic so I'm thinking the Sox feel the same way and Eloy will spend some time in the instructional league and hopefully by the end of 2020 spring training he will be a serviceable left fielder.
I donít think they will send Eloy anywhere over the winter. Now that he has a guaranteed contract, I donít even know if it is allowed.

LITTLE NELL
06-03-2019, 02:32 PM
I donít think they will send Eloy anywhere over the winter. Now that he has a guaranteed contract, I donít even know if it is allowed.

Well if that's the case they will need to work with him maybe a month before ST unless somehow he discovers how to play the posistion the remaining 4 months of the season.
Stranger things have happened.

voodoochile
06-03-2019, 02:53 PM
Well if that's the case they will need to work with him maybe a month before ST unless somehow he discovers how to play the posistion the remaining 4 months of the season.
Stranger things have happened.

He already is playing the position much better than before his injury.

LITTLE NELL
06-03-2019, 03:36 PM
He already is playing the position much better than before his injury.

I guess the guy working with him the most is Daryl Boston who made one of the 10 best catches I've ever seen, Eloy should be in good hands.

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2019, 04:26 PM
I guess the guy working with him the most is Daryl Boston who made one of the 10 best catches I've ever seen, Eloy should be in good hands.

What catch was that?

LITTLE NELL
06-03-2019, 04:41 PM
What catch was that?

He was playing left field, the batter hit a high fly ball down the left field line curving into the low box seats, Boston ran full speed from straightaway LF jumped up on the low wall and caught the ball while flying into the 2nd row of seats. I think it was 1987, tried to find a video without success.

blandman
06-03-2019, 06:22 PM
He already is playing the position much better than before his injury.


As someone that sits behind him and watches his reaction to every ball, I disagree wholeheartedly. I haven't seen improvement, and I think his current play is amongst the worst I've ever seen in left. Other than being clunky, he cannot react to balls in time. He's going to cause a lot of easy outs to be hits in key situations. You don't wanna give up outs, and he plays deep every ball because he can't react to any line drives in time to make a catch. You aren't going to win baseball games giving up hits like that in practice.

voodoochile
06-03-2019, 06:42 PM
As someone that sits behind him and watches his reaction to every ball, I disagree wholeheartedly. I haven't seen improvement, and I think his current play is amongst the worst I've ever seen in left. Other than being clunky, he cannot react to balls in time. He's going to cause a lot of easy outs to be hits in key situations. You don't wanna give up outs, and he plays deep every ball because he can't react to any line drives in time to make a catch. You aren't going to win baseball games giving up hits like that in practice.

Sure you can. Teams have won plenty of games with a LF who does exactly the things you mention since the formation of MLB.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-03-2019, 06:54 PM
Sure you can. Teams have won plenty of games with a LF who does exactly the things you mention since the formation of MLB.

Dudes gonna have to make up a lot of runs to make up for his fielding. I'm not saying it's out of the question but if he can still produce those runs at DH and the sox can get a LF that is serviceable and not give up those runs, they're probably better off for it. I don't think there's any sugarcoating how bad he is out there

blandman
06-03-2019, 06:56 PM
Sure you can. Teams have won plenty of games with a LF who does exactly the things you mention since the formation of MLB.


I'm only 40, but I don't believe I've ever seen an outfielder as bad as Eloy, so I'm not sure there are "plenty" of winning teams with a LF as bad as Eloy.

voodoochile
06-03-2019, 06:58 PM
I'm only 40, but I don't believe I've ever seen an outfielder as bad as Eloy, so I'm not sure there are "plenty" of winning teams with a LF as bad as Eloy.

Well I guess we're just getting really lucky then since he hasn't cost us anything since he's been out there at least on the catching end. I agree his arm and decision making when throwing need work.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-03-2019, 07:07 PM
He can't judge where a fly ball is going to land, that's about 90% of his problems

Grzegorz
06-03-2019, 07:41 PM
He can't judge where a fly ball is going to land, that's about 90% of his problems
I knew his routes were bad but getting a jump and struggling to judge the ball in the air is asking for trouble.


Luckily Darryl Hamilton is here to help: https://www.mlb.com/video/how-to-judge-a-fly-ball/c-34604733

Grzegorz
06-03-2019, 07:42 PM
He can't judge where a fly ball is going to land, that's about 90% of his problems
I knew his routes were bad but getting poor jumps and poor reads is asking for trouble.

Luckily Darryl Hamilton is here to help: https://www.mlb.com/video/how-to-judge-a-fly-ball/c-34604733

longtimefan
06-03-2019, 07:44 PM
Well if that's the case they will need to work with him maybe a month before ST unless somehow he discovers how to play the posistion the remaining 4 months of the season.
Stranger things have happened.

Yes, and include Charlie Tilson also. I'm not sure of the CBA or MLB rules but if possible, I would like these two guys to get some intense workout and instructions in fielding during the off season.

Mohoney
06-03-2019, 08:55 PM
Dudes gonna have to make up a lot of runs to make up for his fielding. I'm not saying it's out of the question but if he can still produce those runs at DH and the sox can get a LF that is serviceable and not give up those runs, they're probably better off for it. I don't think there's any sugarcoating how bad he is out there
I canít understand why so many people find the idea of Eloy at DH so loathsome.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-03-2019, 09:45 PM
I canít understand why so many people find the idea of Eloy at DH so loathsome.

I don't have a problem with it but Cease has to be a #3 or that trade stinks to all hell imo

TDog
06-03-2019, 10:38 PM
Dudes gonna have to make up a lot of runs to make up for his fielding. I'm not saying it's out of the question but if he can still produce those runs at DH and the sox can get a LF that is serviceable and not give up those runs, they're probably better off for it. I don't think there's any sugarcoating how bad he is out there

It would appear the White Sox don't want him to DH. I don't know if it's because there are people in the organization who believe, as I do, that he will never reach his offensive potential if he doesn't play a position or if there are others in the organization who believe, as I do, that bringing up a young player doesn't play a position despite being physically able would limit the team's potential for future offensive growth. It's quite possible that they wouldn't have signed him to a six-year deal if it meant he would be the DH for the next six years.

For now though, it's not me and people who agree with me keeping Eloy Jimenez from spending more time on the bench. And I can't imagine any other team would be running him out as their every-day DH.

Maybe he will evolve into a player who DHs at least as much as he plays the outfield, but he lacks the credentials to be someone the White Sox can simply stick at DH for six years, even if fans believe his offensive breakout is impending.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-03-2019, 11:09 PM
You're talking about a lot of development both offensively and defensively at the MLB level. Typically the development at the mlb level is adjusting to pitching, learning how to play a position is asking a lot imo

Mohoney
06-03-2019, 11:10 PM
I don't have a problem with it but Cease has to be a #3 or that trade stinks to all hell imo
In the time Quintana has been a Cub, he has accumulated 4.7 WAR. That WAR would have gone to waste with the White Sox. Letís say he gets another 5 or 6 WAR before his contract expires at the end of next season. I feel pretty confident in saying that Jimenez and Cease will get us a much better return than that 10 or 11 WAR, and at a time when we can actually put it to good use.

Mohoney
06-03-2019, 11:12 PM
I don't have a problem with it but Cease has to be a #3 or that trade stinks to all hell imo
I quoted you because I agree with you. This team is just a lot better off with a better LF and Eloy at DH. It wonít happen right away, but I hope it happens within the next few years.

hoosiersoxfan
06-03-2019, 11:16 PM
In the time Quintana has been a Cub, he has accumulated 4.7 WAR. That WAR would have gone to waste with the White Sox. Letís say he gets another 5 or 6 WAR before his contract expires at the end of next season. I feel pretty confident in saying that Jimenez and Cease will get us a much better return than that 10 or 11 WAR, and at a time when we can actually put it to good use.

Yep and 5 years from now hopefully Cease and Eloy are very good players in their mid 20s for the Sox while a 35 year old Quintana could very well be on the last legs of his career.

voodoochile
06-03-2019, 11:19 PM
I quoted you because I agree with you. This team is just a lot better off with a better LF and Eloy at DH. It wonít happen right away, but I hope it happens within the next few years.

Not me. I hope Eloy becomes a little bit better in LF with practice and repetition and lives up to his full offensive potential and they find someone else who can DH and can't play any position but 1B to fill that niche.

Eloy clearly has the athleticism and hand/eye coordination to play LF. I want to see if he can do it. I'm already seeing something that is far different, but I watch all the games on TV. He has improved his decision making and he's covering a lot more ground with more assurance. I definitely think we need to give him more time than a month before we can say for sure what his best position will be 2 years from now.

blandman
06-04-2019, 01:21 PM
Not me. I hope Eloy becomes a little bit better in LF with practice and repetition and lives up to his full offensive potential and they find someone else who can DH and can't play any position but 1B to fill that niche.

Eloy clearly has the athleticism and hand/eye coordination to play LF. I want to see if he can do it. I'm already seeing something that is far different, but I watch all the games on TV. He has improved his decision making and he's covering a lot more ground with more assurance. I definitely think we need to give him more time than a month before we can say for sure what his best position will be 2 years from now.

I don't agree that he does, I think he's clunky and slow, and even if he can magically get through the instinct issues he has he'll never be close to average in left. I don't want him to necessarily DH, but if he can't learn a different position like 1B, then we're still going to be immensely better with him filling the DH role and spotting OF/1B while another far superior defender from our system mans the role. We're strongest in OF prospects and most of them are good defenders. It just doesn't seem smart for the long term plan to cement someone like Eloy in that spot. Even if he can be average, which I suspect won't happen...but even if he can, we're a worse team than if we allow pretty much any other OF in our system play left and moving his bat to where it will hurt us less.

Mohoney
06-04-2019, 02:33 PM
Not me. I hope Eloy becomes a little bit better in LF with practice and repetition and lives up to his full offensive potential and they find someone else who can DH and can't play any position but 1B to fill that niche.

Eloy clearly has the athleticism and hand/eye coordination to play LF. I want to see if he can do it. I'm already seeing something that is far different, but I watch all the games on TV. He has improved his decision making and he's covering a lot more ground with more assurance. I definitely think we need to give him more time than a month before we can say for sure what his best position will be 2 years from now.
Why does the DH need to be a backup 1B instead of a backup LF? If anything, this would ensure that an injury or an ejection to either the starting 1B, or the backup 1B when the primary 1B is the DH, doesn’t require pitchers to bat. If the primary LF gets hurt or tossed, someone else on the bench can fill that role.

voodoochile
06-04-2019, 02:48 PM
Why does the DH need to be a backup 1B instead of a backup LF? If anything, this would ensure that an injury or an ejection to either the starting 1B, or the backup 1B when the primary 1B is the DH, doesnít require pitchers to bat. If the primary LF gets hurt or tossed, someone else on the bench can fill that role.

It's what the Sox are currently doing, so that doesn't seem a huge concern.

Mohoney
06-04-2019, 03:33 PM
It's what the Sox are currently doing, so that doesn't seem a huge concern.
They are doing it currently because the pain of salt-and-peppering the ~$6 million that Alonso is owed is simply more than they can bear, team success be damned. It's the same reason we will be getting a heaping helping of Jon Jay in the near future.

voodoochile
07-08-2019, 09:32 AM
Eloy on pace to hi 40+ HR over a full season and his OPS is up to .785. BA is a bit low and he's not walking as much as I'd like, but given how young and new he is I'm very happy. He continues to make all the basic plays in LF and seems to have strong glove skills. His arm is obviously weak and he's still working on where to throw the ball, but given how bad he looked in LF when he first came up I'm very happy with his defensive efforts in LF.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2019, 10:16 AM
Eloy on pace to hi 40+ HR over a full season and his OPS is up to .785. BA is a bit low and he's not walking as much as I'd like, but given how young and new he is I'm very happy. He continues to make all the basic plays in LF and seems to have strong glove skills. His arm is obviously weak and he's still working on where to throw the ball, but given how bad he looked in LF when he first came up I'm very happy with his defensive efforts in LF.

Iím most impressed by how much heís barreling the ball. Heís not getting many ďcheapĒ home runs just barely over the fence into the bullpens; heís hitting lots of them straight out to center field.

voodoochile
07-08-2019, 10:22 AM
Iím most impressed by how much heís barreling the ball. Heís not getting many ďcheapĒ home runs just barely over the fence into the bullpens; heís hitting lots of them straight out to center field.

I agree, but I was actually happier with the one he just missed, foul to LF before hitting the one to CF yesterday. He hasn't dead pulled many home runs so far this year. Once he starts doing that, the sky is the limit.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2019, 10:29 AM
I agree, but I was actually happier with the one he just missed, foul to LF before hitting the one to CF yesterday. He hasn't dead pulled many home runs so far this year. Once he starts doing that, the sky is the limit.

Good point. He definitely has the ability to hit the ball out to any field in any stadium.

I also think that Todd Steverson deserves some credit for the fact that our hitters are producing. While we would all like to see more OBP, and higher batting average generally, despite some obvious holes the lineup is doing an effective job generating extra base hits when runners are on base. Renteriaís lineup constructions often appear counter-intuitive, but it does seem to be working.

TDog
07-08-2019, 12:41 PM
Eloy on pace to hi 40+ HR over a full season and his OPS is up to .785. BA is a bit low and he's not walking as much as I'd like, but given how young and new he is I'm very happy. He continues to make all the basic plays in LF and seems to have strong glove skills. His arm is obviously weak and he's still working on where to throw the ball, but given how bad he looked in LF when he first came up I'm very happy with his defensive efforts in LF.

His outfield defense seems to be improving, and his home runs are impressive. But he needs to hit for a higher average. It is likely he and the team believe he needs to hit for a higher average. He needs to be better at driving in runs. His OPS isn't really relevant because walks increase OPS while sacrifice flies reduce it. Walks will be a reflection of teams pitching around him to get to a weaker hitter hitting behind him.

Jimenez doesn't look like he's the type of hitter who will be a threat because he'll hit 40 to 50 home runs. He looks like he could be the sort of hitter who could give you 90 extra-base hits and 200 hits overall, the sort of hitter who would be more dangerous in a spacious ballpark with the outfield defense spread out. He looks like he could be a punishing hitter and an RBI machine.

One of the problems with getting excited about what young players accomplish is that you can talk yourself into settling for less production than they are capable of and less than you need from them. That was directed to the organization, but it's true for fans who don't make the decisions as well. You could make an argument that Adam Dunn wasn't so bad, but you needed him to be so much better. With Jimenez, he needs to be the sort of RBI machine that Harold Baines was, the sort of slashing extra-base contact hitter that Albert Belle was (for the White Sox, sadly, only in the second half of 1998) and the contact home run hitter Frank Thomas was.

As it is, he hasn't been great in RBI situations. He doesn't pick up enough RBIs with runners on third and less than two outs or bases loaded situations. Overall, he's hitting less than .250, and he is a home run threat. Really, he should be more. I think he can be. I'll be excited when he is.

asindc
07-08-2019, 01:11 PM
His outfield defense seems to be improving, and his home runs are impressive. But he needs to hit for a higher average. It is likely he and the team believe he needs to hit for a higher average. He needs to be better at driving in runs. His OPS isn't really relevant because walks increase OPS while sacrifice flies reduce it. Walks will be a reflection of teams pitching around him to get to a weaker hitter hitting behind him.

Jimenez doesn't look like he's the type of hitter who will be a threat because he'll hit 40 to 50 home runs. He looks like he could be the sort of hitter who could give you 90 extra-base hits and 200 hits overall, the sort of hitter who would be more dangerous in a spacious ballpark with the outfield defense spread out. He looks like he could be a punishing hitter and an RBI machine.

One of the problems with getting excited about what young players accomplish is that you can talk yourself into settling for less production than they are capable of and less than you need from them. That was directed to the organization, but it's true for fans who don't make the decisions as well. You could make an argument that Adam Dunn wasn't so bad, but you needed him to be so much better. With Jimenez, he needs to be the sort of RBI machine that Harold Baines was, the sort of slashing extra-base contact hitter that Albert Belle was (for the White Sox, sadly, only in the second half of 1998) and the contact home run hitter Frank Thomas was.

As it is, he hasn't been great in RBI situations. He doesn't pick up enough RBIs with runners on third and less than two outs or bases loaded situations. Overall, he's hitting less than .250, and he is a home run threat. Really, he should be more. I think he can be. I'll be excited when he is.

I did not know that. That is definitely a flaw in calculating OPS.

voodoochile
07-08-2019, 01:15 PM
I did not know that. That is definitely a flaw in calculating OPS.

Strictly because SF doesn't affect BA but does count as an out for OBP purposes.

OPS is not intended to be a be all end all stat. it's a good meta evaluation tool to compare hitters. As a general rule anyone with an OPS over .800 is producing well.

asindc
07-08-2019, 01:45 PM
Strictly because SF doesn't affect BA but does count as an out for OBP purposes.

OPS is not intended to be a be all end all stat. it's a good meta evaluation tool to compare hitters. As a general rule anyone with an OPS over .800 is producing well.

Understood, but if OPS is meant to indicate level of production, then productive outs should be accounted for, especially if those that directly lead to runs scored.

voodoochile
07-08-2019, 01:47 PM
Understood, but if OPS is meant to indicate level of production, then productive outs should be accounted for, especially if those that directly lead to runs scored.

Only fans take OPS seriously. It's a lazy man's simple way of judging a player's offensive value.

TDog
07-08-2019, 02:40 PM
Only fans take OPS seriously. It's a lazy man's simple way of judging a player's offensive value.


It's too vague to be of any use in evaluating a player's offense. "Lazy" is a good way to put it.

The fact that people place any value at all in OPS has overvalued players that hit for less contact and more power and really has hurt the game, although I understand that some people who value OPS might disagree.

Grzegorz
07-08-2019, 02:46 PM
Eloy on pace to hi 40+ HR over a full season and his OPS is up to .785.
With the balls flying all over the yard these days I wouldn't rule it out.

bridgeportcopper
07-08-2019, 02:55 PM
Eloy was awesome yesterday. Was sitting in left center bleachers & some cubby fans started yelling to him in Spanish the inning after his homer when he came out to left about he should be in a cub jersey. Eloy played along, laughing, doing the finger wag & repeatedly running his finger across the S-O-X on his chest. In the 4th or 5th when the whole stadium got real loud with the alternating "Let's go Cubbies" & "Let's go White Sox" chants, Eloy was almost conducting it & playing along. He played along with the crowd for 3 or 4 innings. It was nice having a Sox player with some status again & it is easy to see the cub fans already regretting trading him to us. The razzing they gave him was all good natured and more or less telling him they wish they still had him. They even gave some grief to Schwarber about how he should have been traded for Quintana instead of Eloy. It was pretty fun to be a part of.

voodoochile
07-08-2019, 03:02 PM
It's too vague to be of any use in evaluating a player's offense. "Lazy" is a good way to put it.

The fact that people place any value at all in OPS has overvalued players that hit for less contact and more power and really has hurt the game, although I understand that some people who value OPS might disagree.

It's difficult to have an OPS that is high without the corresponding OBP. I know you don't value walks that highly, but baseball GM look at it a different way and part of that is in forcing up pitch counts to get to weaker pitchers faster. But it would almost be impossible to have a guy with an .850 OPS with an OBP less than .300 as no one would give the guy anything to hit (see Palka, Daniel) and just wait for them to get themselves out.

If you don't have the eye to take the walks, you won't get the chance to hit the ball a long long way either...

TDog
07-08-2019, 04:35 PM
It's difficult to have an OPS that is high without the corresponding OBP. I know you don't value walks that highly, but baseball GM look at it a different way and part of that is in forcing up pitch counts to get to weaker pitchers faster. But it would almost be impossible to have a guy with an .850 OPS with an OBP less than .300 as no one would give the guy anything to hit (see Palka, Daniel) and just wait for them to get themselves out.

If you don't have the eye to take the walks, you won't get the chance to hit the ball a long long way either...

The value of simply walking, and this is true for the best GMs, depends upon the hitter. Frank Thomas walked a lot. Without looking it up, he probably walked more than anyone in baseball while he was with the White Sox. That is why his OPS is so high. His on-base percentage was incredible, but it also was founded in a high batting average. Walks weren't part of his game. The White Sox signed Albert Belle to give Thomas protection in the lineup -- so that he pitchers would throw him more strikes so that he would walk less.

Joey Cora, who had the distinction of hitting in front of both Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey Jr. during the 1990s, walked a lot considering his lineup protection. While walks were part of Tony Phillips' game and are part of Adam Eaton's game, they weren't part of Frank Thomas' game. Like Ted Williams, Thomas walked when he wasn't given anything to hit. It wasn't a negative outcome, but it wasn't as positive as many analysts now (incorrectly, I would add) believe. Twice Thomas led the American League in intentional walks, once only a few away from the pre-Barry Bonds official record, and the fans did not express excitement over the free base runner.

On this White Sox team, you should want Sanchez to walk. Garcia is someone you should want to see walk. Walks shouldn't be part of Moncada's game, although you should be happy that he doesn't make an out on pitches out of the strike zone. The more extra-base pop your hitter has, the better his batting average in hitting the ball fall (that includes home runs, and it isn't a matter of luck), the less you should want him to walk.

Walks are currently overvalued because Billy Beane stressed them in order to find affordable players. After his big winning streak and the money ball book, the price went up on the hitters who walked a lot and negated the advantage. Willie Mays only once late in his career walked more than 100 times in a season. He rarely got hit by pitches. (As Art Kusnyer, from the White Sox bullpen, has said, you could throw a fistful of BBs at Willie Mays and not hit him). He was up there to hit, and no one complained that he wasn't getting on base without putting the ball in play.

One of the biggest problem with one-size-fits-all analysis is that it oversimplifies the game in the name of complex analysis. Lineups are organic things. Trade for Nick Swisher because he has a bit of power and he walks a lot. Put him in the leadoff spot and suddenly he's not walking. Send him to the Yankees where he isn't expected to walk because he's in such a powerful lineup, and he's a better hitter, but with a lower on-base percentage than he had with the A's.

I don't want Jimenez to walk more. I want him to hit and walk when he doesn't get anything to hit. If he's hitting in front of someone like Sanchez, there isn't much impact of him walking. If he's hitting in front of Abreu, pitchers have more reason not to walk him.

I want hitters who can hit when pitchers are throwing them strikes, not hitters who are trying to walk and work themselves into pitchers' counts in an attempt to get on base. Hitting is about actually hitting. And Jimenez looks like he could be a very skilled hitter.

Mohoney
07-08-2019, 05:37 PM
Understood, but if OPS is meant to indicate level of production, then productive outs should be accounted for, especially if those that directly lead to runs scored.
But you already can look them up directly. Besides, the play simply doesnít occur often enough to be worth revamping the OPS formula.

Nick Ahmed is the current major league leader in sacrifice flies, with 8 of them in 352 plate appearances. His current OBP of .311 would go up to .318 if sac flies were excluded. Weíre talking about 7 total points of OBP, and that is for the league leader, who hypothetically is bearing this burden more than anyone else. As a whole, 666 sacrifice flies produced in 103,075 plate appearances has reduced the leagueís OBP from .324 to .322, which is barely even noticeable.

Mohoney
07-08-2019, 05:44 PM
It's difficult to have an OPS that is high without the corresponding OBP. I know you don't value walks that highly, but baseball GM look at it a different way and part of that is in forcing up pitch counts to get to weaker pitchers faster. But it would almost be impossible to have a guy with an .850 OPS with an OBP less than .300 as no one would give the guy anything to hit (see Palka, Daniel) and just wait for them to get themselves out.

If you don't have the eye to take the walks, you won't get the chance to hit the ball a long long way either...
Exactly. Taking walks instead of swinging at crap is a valued asset. The only people bothered by it are the ďhome runs and strikeouts and walks are ickyĒ crowd. Luckily, MLB general managers realize that avoiding outs is super awesome!

cards press box
07-08-2019, 05:49 PM
Do you think he's doing better out there than when he started? Does he still give you a lot of reason for concern?

I think he's doing a lot better defensively than early in the season and I see big production from #74 in the second half.

asindc
07-08-2019, 06:01 PM
Exactly. Taking walks instead of swinging at crap is a valued asset. The only people bothered by it are the ďhome runs and strikeouts and walks are ickyĒ crowd. Luckily, MLB general managers realize that avoiding outs is super awesome!

It is nearly infinitely easier to avoid making an out by hitting the ball rather than striking out. Anyone concerned with not making outs should become as proficient as possible at making contact as a foundation to his hitting approach. You know, refine the skill of hitting. In other words, avoiding strikeouts instead of swinging at crap should be a valued asset, more valued than taking walks (which also should be valued, just not as highly as making contact as consistently as possible). Moncada is making more contact, for instance, while taking fewer walks. Itís not a coincidence that he is producing better numbers across the board than when he took more walks.

kittle42
07-08-2019, 06:24 PM
Exactly. Taking walks instead of swinging at crap is a valued asset. The only people bothered by it are the ďhome runs and strikeouts and walks are ickyĒ crowd. Luckily, MLB general managers realize that avoiding outs is super awesome!

Amen.

Mohoney
07-08-2019, 06:46 PM
It is nearly infinitely easier to avoid making an out by hitting the ball rather than striking out. Anyone concerned with not making outs should become as proficient as possible at making contact as a foundation to his hitting approach. You know, refine the skill of hitting. In other words, avoiding strikeouts instead of swinging at crap should be a valued asset, more valued than taking walks (which also should be valued, just not as highly as making contact as consistently as possible). Moncada is making more contact, for instance, while taking fewer walks. Itís not a coincidence that he is producing better numbers across the board than when he took more walks.
Moncada is also a player with superior natural ability at the plate. This near-.900 OPS is not even his ceiling. It was just a matter of time before a lot of his swings and misses turned into hard contact.

Itís different for mere mortals who canít take good ďpitcherís pitchesĒ and hit them with authority. Those guys are better off just taking those pitches and hoping they are not strikes. Youíre overestimating the amount of positive outcomes a guy like Daniel Palka can generate by swinging at borderline pitches instead of taking them. A guy like him is better off generating completely useless strikeouts and an increase in walks instead of grounders and pop-ups that are nearly as useless as the strikeouts anyway.

blandman
07-08-2019, 06:48 PM
I think he's doing a lot better defensively than early in the season and I see big production from #74 in the second half.


Did you miss the first inning Saturday? He caused a run on a routine fly ball out because he reacted too slowly.

He has athleticism. He doesn't have instincts. After what is now almost 6 years of playing left field, he still cannot consistently gauge fly ball distance on anything but line drives. I have little doubt at this point that there won't be any improvement.

HomeFish
07-08-2019, 10:02 PM
I'm far more worried about the fact that he is hitting .215 or whatever over his last 10 games than his defense. He seems to have marginally improved at defense this year already and hitting is far more important than defense. You can teach a good hitter better defense (Carlos Lee, anyone?) but you can't teach a good defender better hitting (see Engel).

blandman
07-08-2019, 10:12 PM
I'm far more worried about the fact that he is hitting .215 or whatever over his last 10 games than his defense. He seems to have marginally improved at defense this year already and hitting is far more important than defense. You can teach a good hitter better defense (Carlos Lee, anyone?) but you can't teach a good defender better hitting (see Engel).


Carlos Lee never became an average defender, and we won a world series by trading him away for a lesser hitter/average defender in left. :shrug:

TDog
07-08-2019, 10:27 PM
Did you miss the first inning Saturday? He caused a run on a routine fly ball out because he reacted too slowly.

He has athleticism. He doesn't have instincts. After what is now almost 6 years of playing left field, he still cannot consistently gauge fly ball distance on anything but line drives. I have little doubt at this point that there won't be any improvement.


Then apparently the rebuild will fail. The White Sox are going with Jimenez in left and drafted a first baseman who they project to be an offensive cornerstone of the future.

blandman
07-08-2019, 10:31 PM
Then apparently the rebuild will fail. The White Sox are going with Jimenez in left and drafted a first baseman who they project to be an offensive cornerstone of the future.


DH is an option if learning a new position isn't. We've got a ton of outfield prospects that are all better defenders than Eloy.

TDog
07-09-2019, 12:56 AM
DH is an option if learning a new position isn't. We've got a ton of outfield prospects that are all better defenders than Eloy.


The White Sox obviously don't consider full-time DH an option.

Grzegorz
07-09-2019, 03:55 AM
Carlos Lee never became an average defender, and we won a world series by trading him away for a lesser hitter/average defender in left. :shrug:
The White Sox did not win the 2005 WS b/c of one move.

HomeFish
07-09-2019, 06:26 AM
Carlos Lee never became an average defender, and we won a world series by trading him away for a lesser hitter/average defender in left. :shrug:

I don't see how the fact that the Sox traded him has any relevance, they didn't win the World Series because of Scott Podsednik's defense. Carlos Lee was a valuable offensive player who was bad at defense, and he did cut down on egregious, bonehead plays during his time with the Sox. He had a 14-year MLB career despite never mastering defense. He is a good model for Eloy to follow, as long as Eloy doesn't copy his diet.

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 07:18 AM
The White Sox did not win the 2005 WS b/c of one move.

Maybe- but they don't win the World Series without this move.

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 07:21 AM
Eloy has the work ethic and the athleticism to become an adequate LF- the kid's only played about 2.5 months of major league baseball (w/injuries, etc.) and he's improving week by week- with a guy like Robert covering CF- he'll be fine.

Noneck
07-09-2019, 09:38 AM
Eloy has the work ethic and the athleticism to become an adequate LF- the kid's only played about 2.5 months of major league baseball (w/injuries, etc.) and he's improving week by week- with a guy like Robert covering CF- he'll be fine.




He had over 400 games in the OF in the minors with 2 different organizations. Maybe the work ethic has started but it sure didnt previously.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 09:47 AM
Eloy has the work ethic and the athleticism to become an adequate LF- the kid's only played about 2.5 months of major league baseball (w/injuries, etc.) and he's improving week by week- with a guy like Robert covering CF- he'll be fine.

And his offensive production is going to dwarf Lee's...

blandman
07-09-2019, 10:01 AM
Eloy has the work ethic and the athleticism to become an adequate LF- the kid's only played about 2.5 months of major league baseball (w/injuries, etc.) and he's improving week by week- with a guy like Robert covering CF- he'll be fine.

Eloy has 6 years of athleticism and work ethic playing left field and has not learned the basics of the position. We're talking tens of thousands of innings playing left field. He's not magically going to start improving. He is as good as he'll ever be, and as he ages it will get worse. Considering he's currently severely below average for the position, the smart move is to consider where else his bat could fit.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 10:25 AM
Eloy has 6 years of athleticism and work ethic playing left field and has not learned the basics of the position. We're talking tens of thousands of innings playing left field. He's not magically going to start improving. He is as good as he'll ever be, and as he ages it will get worse. Considering he's currently severely below average for the position, the smart move is to consider where else his bat could fit.

Your over the top hyperbole is not helping your argument. 10's of 1000's of innings is over 2200 games - about 15 full MLB seasons playing every single inning.

Now sure, Eloy has had plenty of time working in LF, but the simple fact is he's basically adequate out there right now. Is he a plus defender? No, but he's going to be a +++ bat at a position that has always been offense first. It's always been considered the second least important defensive position on the field. As a LF he's fine and improving and yes, he will continue to improve with more time out there and no, that's not a "magical" outcome, it's just basic common sense.

kobo
07-09-2019, 10:30 AM
He had over 400 games in the OF in the minors with 2 different organizations. Maybe the work ethic has started but it sure didnt previously.
Are you basing this off of the improvements he has made at the ML level? Because essentially what you are saying is he didn't have a work ethic because you saw no improvement in his play in LF in the minors, but now that he has shown some improvement he now has a work ethic. Which is ridiculous.

kobo
07-09-2019, 10:32 AM
Eloy has 6 years of athleticism and work ethic playing left field and has not learned the basics of the position. We're talking tens of thousands of innings playing left field. He's not magically going to start improving. He is as good as he'll ever be, and as he ages it will get worse. Considering he's currently severely below average for the position, the smart move is to consider where else his bat could fit.
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:


I love when you make comments that speak in absolutes. They're gold.

rdivaldi
07-09-2019, 10:41 AM
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:


I love when you make comments that speak in absolutes. They're gold.


Not to pile on...but.


Moncada is behind schedule and had a lot of MLB at bats. Tim Anderson is behind schedule and had a lot more MLB at bats. At some point, you just have to accept they're the players that they are. They're not stars, and the window for them to become that is rapidly shutting. Anderson moreso, but he's also the better player currently. There are serious questions about Moncada's ability to make contact in the zone at this level. And by serious, I mean many scouts are leaning towards no.


Patience is needed as talent often wins out...

TDog
07-09-2019, 11:14 AM
The White Sox committed to Jimenez before he took a swing in the majors -- $18.5 million in 2026 alone, although they have the option of buying him out in 2025 and 2026 if he proves a bust. They didn't commit to a DH through 2026, but if the Sox move him to fulltime DH in his rookie season, that's all he ever will be.

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 11:15 AM
Eloy has 6 years of athleticism and work ethic playing left field and has not learned the basics of the position. We're talking tens of thousands of innings playing left field. He's not magically going to start improving. He is as good as he'll ever be, and as he ages it will get worse. Considering he's currently severely below average for the position, the smart move is to consider where else his bat could fit.

Watching him play LF since April- I completely disagree- I'm witnessing him improve month by month with my own eyes- how many 22 yo rookies are "as good as they'll ever be"?

Frater Perdurabo
07-09-2019, 12:00 PM
Watching him play LF since April- I completely disagree- I'm witnessing him improve month by month with my own eyes- how many 22 yo rookies are "as good as they'll ever be"?

Agreed.

Arguments that he canít/wonít improve are not founded in facts.

For whatever reason, minor league teams have fewer coaches than major league teams. Thatís why organizations employ roving ďoutfield instructors.Ē Aaron Rowand has that job with the Sox organization and Iím sure he does the best job that he can given the circumstances of being responsible for teaching/coaching outfielders across four full-season affiliates (Charlotte, Birmingham, Winston-Salem and Kannapolis) and three short-season affiliates (Great Falls, Arizona Summer League, and Dominican Summer League). Factor in Rowandís travel time between cities, and the sheer numbers would suggest Eloy - like any other outfielder in the Sox minor league system - received very little instruction on playing defense in left field in 155 total games and two Spring Trainings (one of which was cut short by injury) in the Sox system. Indeed, at various stops in both the Cubs and Sox systems (including Winston-Salem), he played a fair amount of RF as well.

This is probably the first time that Eloy is getting regular daily instruction in playing the outfield, specifically left field, and itís paying off. He wonít win any gold gloves but he can become adequate, which will be adequate for the Sox needs.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 12:01 PM
Watching him play LF since April- I completely disagree- I'm witnessing him improve month by month with my own eyes- how many 22 yo rookies are "as good as they'll ever be"?

I don't know how this isn't blatantly obvious to anyone watching the games.

Noneck
07-09-2019, 12:10 PM
Are you basing this off of the improvements he has made at the ML level? Because essentially what you are saying is he didn't have a work ethic because you saw no improvement in his play in LF in the minors, but now that he has shown some improvement he now has a work ethic. Which is ridiculous.


Im saying if he had a work ethic in the minors he wouldnt look this bad now.

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 12:15 PM
Im saying if he had a work ethic in the minors he wouldnt look this bad now.

He's a 22 yo who's off to a great start in his major league career- while acclimating to living in a foreign country along the way- I don't see any evidence to question his work ethic.

Just about every 22 yo rookie has some area of their game that needs work.

blandman
07-09-2019, 12:16 PM
Not to pile on...but.





Patience is needed as talent often wins out...

That's fair, but the assessment was also both fair and close to consensus in the industry.

blandman
07-09-2019, 12:19 PM
Your over the top hyperbole is not helping your argument. 10's of 1000's of innings is over 2200 games - about 15 full MLB seasons playing every single inning.

Now sure, Eloy has had plenty of time working in LF, but the simple fact is he's basically adequate out there right now. Is he a plus defender? No, but he's going to be a +++ bat at a position that has always been offense first. It's always been considered the second least important defensive position on the field. As a LF he's fine and improving and yes, he will continue to improve with more time out there and no, that's not a "magical" outcome, it's just basic common sense.

In a full time season, a player can expect to get about 1350 innings at their defensive position considering allowing for two weeks+ of time off. Eloy has about 550 professional games in left field, and that doesn't include any practice time or non-professional games in left field. I have confidence that after all that time, if he's as destitute in left as he currently is...it's NOT going to get much better if at all.

Noneck
07-09-2019, 12:24 PM
He's a 22 yo who's off to a great start in his major league career- while acclimating to living in a foreign country along the way- I don't see any evidence to question his work ethic.

Just about every 22 yo rookie has some area of their game that needs work.


I look at him in left and he looks clueless, like he was a catcher his whole baseball career.

blandman
07-09-2019, 12:27 PM
I look at him in left and he looks clueless, like he was a catcher his whole baseball career.

I agree with this. And I'm sitting right behind Eloy for most home games, so I see how late he reacts to balls and how wrong his reactions are to balls in the air. Even with so much time put into it.

Some guys just aren't outfielders.

I_Liked_Manuel
07-09-2019, 12:39 PM
I look at him in left and he looks clueless, like he was a catcher his whole baseball career.

Yep, it's not magically getting better with practice. This debate is pointless imo because as he puts on muscle/weight, he's going to get slower and be relegated to DH regardless of how much time he puts into the position. I've thought about this and can't remember a sox outfielder that covers less ground than him, he makes Carlos Lee look like a gold glover

kobo
07-09-2019, 02:10 PM
Im saying if he had a work ethic in the minors he wouldnt look this bad now.
That's your personal belief and is not rooted in fact. You have no idea what his work ethic is or isn't. I'd argue that him being 22 years old and producing at the major league level shows a strong work ethic. Just because he has struggled at times in the field does not indicate he did not work on that part of his game previously.

rdivaldi
07-09-2019, 02:17 PM
That's fair, but the assessment was also both fair and close to consensus in the industry.

I do not remember anyone in the industry saying that Anderson and Moncada were peaked or not going to improve to an all star level. To be fair, I never thought Anderson would ever hit like he did in the first half and his defense is not where it should be. Moncada however was a consensus future star by every account I can remember and that is even after his rough year.

Harry Chappas
07-09-2019, 02:54 PM
That's fair, but the assessment was also both fair and close to consensus in the industry.

No, it wasn't. Honestly, is there no accountability for what people post here? Opinions are one thing but citing non-existent sources and stats to support your argument is another.

Noneck
07-09-2019, 03:01 PM
That's your personal belief and is not rooted in fact.


Yes it is, as is yours and everyone else in this thread about this matter.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 03:21 PM
Yes it is, as is yours and everyone else in this thread about this matter.

Yes, but it seems there's a difference between speculating on whether a player is or is not good at their job and speculating on what's going on inside their head. One is based on observation and repetition. The other is based on nothing but the posters beliefs and everyone has different values, needs, etc. which color those perceptions.

You're psychoanalyzing Eloy strictly based on his performance. Seems like a serious stretch...

Noneck
07-09-2019, 03:23 PM
You're psychoanalyzing Eloy strictly based on his performance. Seems like a serious stretch...


And the old saying "Practice makes perfect"

rdivaldi
07-09-2019, 03:25 PM
Yep, it's not magically getting better with practice. This debate is pointless imo because as he puts on muscle/weight, he's going to get slower and be relegated to DH regardless of how much time he puts into the position. I've thought about this and can't remember a sox outfielder that covers less ground than him, he makes Carlos Lee look like a gold glover

This is perception, not reality. While I cannot speak for El Caballo, Jimenez is not at the bottom of the league when it comes to "jumps" in the outfield.

For those that don't know, "Jump" is a statistic kept by MLB when measuring outfielder feet covered in the correct direction. The three components are:

1) Reaction
2) Burst
3) Route (Feet covered against a direct route to the ball)

Currently there are 104 outfielders (LF/CF/RF) rated in 2019. At the All Star break Jimenez is 68th in reaction time, 83rd in burst to the ball and 12th in route taken to the ball.

If you think Eloy is not taking the proper route to the ball you are incorrect.

MISoxfan
07-09-2019, 03:36 PM
And the old saying " Practice makes perfect"

It's just practice keeping every 22 year old from being a star outfielder. Got it.

I_Liked_Manuel
07-09-2019, 04:08 PM
This is perception, not reality. While I cannot speak for El Caballo, Jimenez is not at the bottom of the league when it comes to "jumps" in the outfield.

For those that don't know, "Jump" is a statistic kept by MLB when measuring outfielder feet covered in the correct direction. The three components are:

1) Reaction
2) Burst
3) Route (Feet covered against a direct route to the ball)

Currently there are 104 outfielders (LF/CF/RF) rated in 2019. At the All Star break Jimenez is 68th in reaction time, 83rd in burst to the ball and 12th in route taken to the ball.

If you think Eloy is not taking the proper route to the ball you are incorrect.

Any stat that measures Eloy as taking good routes to the ball is comical. I swear that some people need to spend more time watching the game and less time getting worked up on subjective metrics

blandman
07-09-2019, 04:08 PM
It's just practice keeping every 22 year old from being a star outfielder. Got it.


Six years of every day left field play doesn't count, because he's 22 and the learning starts RIGHT NOW.


:happybday


ESPN's top 25 under 25 contains three sox players. 13 Giolito, 14 Moncada, and 23 Eloy. In the notes about Eloy, they are clear that at this point he's going to be at best a below average outfielder and will almost certainly need to change positions, but his bat will play everywhere so he still made the list.

There is also a caution on Moncada, because of his insane BABIP numbers, but his hard contact rate this year makes me think that even if he isn't this good he's certainly an above average player.

rdivaldi
07-09-2019, 04:46 PM
Any stat that measures Eloy as taking good routes to the ball is comical. I swear that some people need to spend more time watching the game and less time getting worked up on subjective metrics

The route metric is an actual measurement of Eloy's route taken to fly balls compared to the actual best route taken, there's nothing subjective about it. The "eye test" crowd needs to realize that their eyes don't see everything.

I'm not suggesting that Eloy isn't a below average left fielder, but I am suggesting that he's not nearly as bad as many posters seem to think and the facts back that up.

blandman
07-09-2019, 04:49 PM
The route metric is an actual measurement of Eloy's route taken to fly balls compared to the actual best route taken, there's nothing subjective about it. The "eye test" crowd needs to realize that their eyes don't see everything.

I'm not suggesting that Eloy isn't a below average left fielder, but I am suggesting that he's not nearly as bad as many posters seem to think and the facts back that up.


It is easy to take the right route when you react so slowly.

Eloy is actually pretty good with judging line drives. But he has a LOT of trouble with balls in the air.

Harry Chappas
07-09-2019, 05:06 PM
The route metric is an actual measurement of Eloy's route taken to fly balls compared to the actual best route taken, there's nothing subjective about it. The "eye test" crowd needs to realize that their eyes don't see everything.

I'm not suggesting that Eloy isn't a below average left fielder, but I am suggesting that he's not nearly as bad as many posters seem to think and the facts back that up.

Also, color me skeptical that anyone here has really seen his reaction to every fly ball. The TV broadcast doesn't usually show it. But people believe what they want to believe. So far, we have the following chestnuts:

- At 22, he's not going to get any better because if he could, he would have because of the thousands of innings he's played. He's a finished product.
- His struggles may indicate poor practice habits
- Advanced metrics don't matter - I've watched every one of his plays and my eyes tell me different.

I'm the furthest thing from a pollyanna but it seems like people insist on looking for dark clouds even on sunny days. I'm not suggesting that he's likely ever going to be a plus fielder but I do think he can be average. In fact, he's average right now.

blandman
07-09-2019, 05:10 PM
Also, color me skeptical that anyone here has really seen his reaction to every fly ball. The TV broadcast doesn't usually show it. But people believe what they want to believe. So far, we have the following chestnuts:

- At 22, he's not going to get any better because if he could, he would have because of the thousands of innings he's played. He's a finished product.
- His struggles may indicate poor practice habits
- Advanced metrics don't matter - I've watched every one of his plays and my eyes tell me different.

I'm the furthest thing from a pollyanna but it seems like people insist on looking for dark clouds even on sunny days. I'm not suggesting that he's likely ever going to be a plus fielder but I do think he can be average. In fact, he's average right now.


The advanced metrics show poor reaction and burst.

Eloy is not LEARNING to play left. What is the disconnect here? You can't say you're learning something you've done exclusively for the better part of a decade. Improvement is always possible, but in this case it's not a likely outcome. And the real crux is we have a plethora of guys coming up who are way more advanced defenders. So it makes sense to start Eloy working on something else. His bat will play anywhere. If the idea is not for him to DH, purely from an organizational depth standpoint they need to see where else he'll fit. Because while we're a better team with his bat in the lineup, we're a worse team with it at that position.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 06:05 PM
This is perception, not reality. While I cannot speak for El Caballo, Jimenez is not at the bottom of the league when it comes to "jumps" in the outfield.

For those that don't know, "Jump" is a statistic kept by MLB when measuring outfielder feet covered in the correct direction. The three components are:

1) Reaction
2) Burst
3) Route (Feet covered against a direct route to the ball)

Currently there are 104 outfielders (LF/CF/RF) rated in 2019. At the All Star break Jimenez is 68th in reaction time, 83rd in burst to the ball and 12th in route taken to the ball.

If you think Eloy is not taking the proper route to the ball you are incorrect.

Given that LF is historically where the worst OF defenders play, I'd be interested in seeing how he stacks up just against just those players. If he's 68th that puts him at the very bottom of the second of 3 tiers of all OF defenders who qualify. That means he's either better than every other LF out there or is better than a few CF a few RF and most LF or several RF and most LF. Given that a few of these players are probably getting PT mostly due to their defense (CF) he sounds like he's just fine for what we expect.

At least that's how I read 68/104.

IIRC someone posted this earlier about Leury and by this stat Leury was 3rd for all CF for "Jump".

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 06:10 PM
The advanced metrics show poor reaction and burst.

Eloy is not LEARNING to play left. What is the disconnect here? You can't say you're learning something you've done exclusively for the better part of a decade. Improvement is always possible, but in this case it's not a likely outcome. And the real crux is we have a plethora of guys coming up who are way more advanced defenders. So it makes sense to start Eloy working on something else. His bat will play anywhere. If the idea is not for him to DH, purely from an organizational depth standpoint they need to see where else he'll fit. Because while we're a better team with his bat in the lineup, we're a worse team with it at that position.

Reaction is something you'd actually expect to improve as he gets comfortable. He's still in his first 50 games of playing at Soxpark and he's not a strong defender so he's probably being very cautious. I'd bet the team actually drilled in him not to be too aggressive that Tim and Yoan and Leury can all cover a lot of ground so he should make sure the ball is in his territory before going for it. Once he's more familiar with the players around him, the playing field and conditions he will probably have better reaction time.

His burst will never be great because he's not a sprinter, but his scouting reports state that his long legs allow him to cover a lot of ground, so even if he doesn't start fast, he still gets to where he's going in a respectable amount of time.

One thing for sure, his glove work has been very solid. He's made some very nice plays when he's been in the area to make them.

voodoochile
07-09-2019, 06:26 PM
Here's a link to the Jump stat on Baseball Savant:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/jump?year=2019&min=q

Eloy is actually 63rd over all at present. To be fair, he's also 91/96 in outs above average at -7 and -5% in terms of catches versus expected catches.

Cordell is actually killing it defensively and is 6th in outs above average and 7th in jump both of which are substantially better than Leury.

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 07:23 PM
Six years of every day left field play doesn't count, because he's 22 and the learning starts RIGHT NOW.


:happybday


ESPN's top 25 under 25 contains three sox players. 13 Giolito, 14 Moncada, and 23 Eloy. In the notes about Eloy, they are clear that at this point he's going to be at best a below average outfielder and will almost certainly need to change positions, but his bat will play everywhere so he still made the list.

There is also a caution on Moncada, because of his insane BABIP numbers, but his hard contact rate this year makes me think that even if he isn't this good he's certainly an above average player.

You lost me at "ESPN....." :cool:

TomBradley72
07-09-2019, 07:31 PM
The advanced metrics show poor reaction and burst.

Eloy is not LEARNING to play left. What is the disconnect here? You can't say you're learning something you've done exclusively for the better part of a decade. Improvement is always possible, but in this case it's not a likely outcome. And the real crux is we have a plethora of guys coming up who are way more advanced defenders. So it makes sense to start Eloy working on something else. His bat will play anywhere. If the idea is not for him to DH, purely from an organizational depth standpoint they need to see where else he'll fit. Because while we're a better team with his bat in the lineup, we're a worse team with it at that position.

I'm sorry- but you're finding a way to be miserable about this awesome, joyous, 22 yo phenom who's just getting started- it's LF or DH for him- it will be 2021 at the earliest until any prospect is remotely putting pressure on his position as a starter- and that's if 2 out of Rutherford, Walker, Basabe, Adolfo, Gonzalez actually make it by then (assuming Robert is in CF) w/Rutherford being the only one who has shown any productivity as high as AA so far.

Really hard to see the defense of ANY of these guys making them a better LF option when considering Eloy's advantage with the bat.

Mohoney
07-09-2019, 08:20 PM
I'm sorry- but you're finding a way to be miserable about this awesome, joyous, 22 yo phenom who's just getting started- it's LF or DH for him- it will be 2021 at the earliest until any prospect is remotely putting pressure on his position as a starter- and that's if 2 out of Rutherford, Walker, Basabe, Adolfo, Gonzalez actually make it by then (assuming Robert is in CF) w/Rutherford being the only one who has shown any productivity as high as AA so far.

Really hard to see the defense of ANY of these guys making them a better LF option when considering Eloy's advantage with the bat.
If Reed and Vaughn both pan out, or if one of them pans out and the team keeps Abreu, Eloy would stay in LF anyway. Which is fine. If he can be Manny Ramirez with the bat, then I have no problem with him being Manny Ramirez with the glove.

Domeshot17
07-09-2019, 10:21 PM
If Eloy was hitting like we thought he would, no one would really care about his D. More just trying to be patient on the Bat.

KenBerryGrab
07-09-2019, 10:56 PM
If Eloy was hitting like we thought he would, no one would really care about his D. More just trying to be patient on the Bat.

He's doing quite well for a rookie. Those last 3 weeks are not a mirage. Balls don't go 450 because of luck.

blandman
07-10-2019, 08:38 AM
If Eloy was hitting like we thought he would, no one would really care about his D. More just trying to be patient on the Bat.


I don't remember WSI being quiet about Carlos Lee's defense when he was hitting. :gulp:


Eloy is a bad defender at a position where we are strongest in our minor league system. It makes sense to move his bat to any other location sooner rather than later.

voodoochile
07-10-2019, 09:15 AM
I don't remember WSI being quiet about Carlos Lee's defense when he was hitting. :gulp:


Eloy is a bad defender at a position where we are strongest in our minor league system. It makes sense to move his bat to any other location sooner rather than later.

Why? The only other spot he'd cover would be DH. Not sure that needs much defensive practice...

ChiTownTrojan
07-10-2019, 09:24 AM
Eloy is a bad defender at a position where we are strongest in our minor league system. It makes sense to move his bat to any other location sooner rather than later.

The OF as a whole is pretty deep in the minor leagues, but other than Robert nobody looks like they'll be ready until at least 2021. If you move Eloy, you're looking at Leury/Tilson/Cordell for LF. Seems counterproductive.

Also, I assume you're suggesting moving Eloy to 1B or DH. To me those are actually deeper positions in the organization, between Abreu (who I expect to be re-signed), Collins, Sheets, Vaughn, Burger, and a couple other hitters who could conceivably step in at DH and offer more than Tilson/Cordell to a lineup. In fact by definition ANY hitter in the organization can cover DH. It doesn't make sense to tie up the two easiest positions to fill on the roster for the next decade, when there's nobody to fill LF right now. If at some point Rutherford/Adolfo/etc. start putting it together and offer better defensive options, then you can move Eloy, but until then why not let the kid play the field and see if he can improve?

blandman
07-10-2019, 10:09 AM
Why? The only other spot he'd cover would be DH. Not sure that needs much defensive practice...

He could learn a new position. And honestly, then the patience and let him improve thing would actually start to make sense. Even if he DH's down the road, learning to play another position - like first base - just gives us a lot more options. Right now it feels like we're cementing ourselves into a disadvantage in every game he has to play left, both because of his poor play and because of the number of player's he'd likely block given our minor league depth at that position versus everywhere else on the diamond.

Domeshot17
07-10-2019, 10:15 AM
He could learn a new position. And honestly, then the patience and let him improve thing would actually start to make sense. Even if he DH's down the road, learning to play another position - like first base - just gives us a lot more options. Right now it feels like we're cementing ourselves into a disadvantage in every game he has to play left, both because of his poor play and because of the number of player's he'd likely block given our minor league depth at that position versus everywhere else on the diamond.

You are better off continuing to work with him to just be a better defensive LF. He isn't going to play 1b, Vaughn is a plus defender there even for being smaller. Sheets is a fine defensive 1b. So you are looking at DH for Eloy if it does not work out.

And again, if he starts hitting .300-35-110-.900+, no one is really going to care about his D, as long he continues to get better.

voodoochile
07-10-2019, 10:25 AM
He could learn a new position. And honestly, then the patience and let him improve thing would actually start to make sense. Even if he DH's down the road, learning to play another position - like first base - just gives us a lot more options. Right now it feels like we're cementing ourselves into a disadvantage in every game he has to play left, both because of his poor play and because of the number of player's he'd likely block given our minor league depth at that position versus everywhere else on the diamond.

It's the wrong time to be doing that. If there's a move to be made it should happen during ST next year. Don't **** with the kids head. Let him get comfortable and find consistency with his bat. EVERYTHING else is secondary to that.

Also, there isn't as much depth at LF as you think. Meanwhile at 1B there's tons of big bat depth. In time the Sox would be better off with Eloy and Vaughn and other players who can hit to cover those slots on days they need a break than they will be with Eloy relegated to DH/1B. Of course if they find a guy who can hit close to what Eloy is projected to hit to play LF better than he can that does change the discussion.

blandman
07-10-2019, 10:51 AM
You are better off continuing to work with him to just be a better defensive LF. He isn't going to play 1b, Vaughn is a plus defender there even for being smaller. Sheets is a fine defensive 1b. So you are looking at DH for Eloy if it does not work out.

And again, if he starts hitting .300-35-110-.900+, no one is really going to care about his D, as long he continues to get better.

That's a non-starter, because many of us and many publications realize that he isn't going to improve in left. He's had a ton of experience there.

Defense matters. You can't hide a bat in the outfield, it will cost you games.

TomBradley72
07-10-2019, 10:58 AM
I don't remember WSI being quiet about Carlos Lee's defense when he was hitting. :gulp:


Eloy is a bad defender at a position where we are strongest in our minor league system. It makes sense to move his bat to any other location sooner rather than later.

Which outfield prospects specifically do you see as better options in LF when considering both their defense and their offense?

Domeshot17
07-10-2019, 11:03 AM
That's a non-starter, because many of us and many publications realize that he isn't going to improve in left. He's had a ton of experience there.

Defense matters. You can't hide a bat in the outfield, it will cost you games.

Manny Ramirez has a couple rings that disagree with you.

If the Bat is good enough, you can hide it in LF. The bat has to be good enough though.

Tragg
07-10-2019, 11:03 AM
It makes sense to move his bat to any other location sooner rather than later.

Teams see what you see. The Cubs saw what you see. What would the Sox get for him now, especially when his bat hasn't fully clicked yet and when the Sox would be overtly peddling him?

If they moved him, I'd have to be happy to see Jon Jay out there..I don't want to be that happy.

voodoochile
07-10-2019, 11:10 AM
This conversation has taken a ridiculous turn.

Leave Eloy alone and let him play.

I know it's hard to believe, but world class athletes with great Hand Eye coordination actually do tend to improve at things they do repeatedly. I know that he's had 500 or whatever games already, but that doesn't preclude him from getting better after another 500 or 1000 or 2000.

It's simply terrible logic to assume that can't happen.

kittle42
07-10-2019, 11:19 AM
This conversation has taken a ridiculous turn.


It's tiring.

Harry Chappas
07-10-2019, 11:22 AM
That's a non-starter, because many of us and many publications realize that he isn't going to improve in left. He's had a ton of experience there.

Defense matters. You can't hide a bat in the outfield, it will cost you games.

Who is "us" and why should anyone in the Sox organization care what your opinion is? Also, can you provide links to the articles from legitimate publications that have stated that he is not going to improve in left?

Voodoochile is correct. I can't believe that anyone needs to be convinced that young players can and do improve with added experience and coaching. Why even having coaches then?

thomas35forever
07-10-2019, 11:32 AM
Am I actually reading advocating a trade involving Eloy because of his defensive skills or apparent lack thereof? Are you people high?

ChiSoxNationPres
07-10-2019, 11:36 AM
Players improve defensively at the MLB level often. Tons of examples. Outfield is one of the easier ones to do so as well. Can't believe people actually think that someone's development is over at 22.

TomBradley72
07-10-2019, 11:54 AM
Teams see what you see. The Cubs saw what you see. What would the Sox get for him now, especially when his bat hasn't fully clicked yet and when the Sox would be overtly peddling him?

If they moved him, I'd have to be happy to see Jon Jay out there..I don't want to be that happy.

Teal?

The Cubs would LOVE to have him in their outfield- hell they already throw Schwarber out there almost every day- Eloy has universally been viewed as one of the top prospects in all of baseball since the White Sox acquired him- you guys are in some bizarro world with some of this stuff.

Tragg
07-10-2019, 12:09 PM
Teal?

The Cubs would LOVE to have him in their outfield- hell they already throw Schwarber out there almost every day- Eloy has universally been viewed as one of the top prospects in all of baseball since the White Sox acquired him- you guys are in some bizarro world with some of this stuff.

I tried to show that even if I accepted Bland's assumptions re Eloy's defensive weaknesses that a trade made no sense.

central44
07-10-2019, 12:14 PM
The point that hasn't been made enough in this thread is that despite Eloy maybe not being the best defensive left fielder, he's going to be playing alongside Luis Robert who has the tools to be one of the best defensive centerfielders in baseball.

Eloy isn't going to have to cover all that much ground playing alongside Luis Robert. His defense really isn't nearly as big of a deal as his bat, which has a lot more value from an outfield spot than as a DH.

blandman
07-10-2019, 12:17 PM
This conversation has taken a ridiculous turn.

Leave Eloy alone and let him play.

I know it's hard to believe, but world class athletes with great Hand Eye coordination actually do tend to improve at things they do repeatedly. I know that he's had 500 or whatever games already, but that doesn't preclude him from getting better after another 500 or 1000 or 2000.

It's simply terrible logic to assume that can't happen.

Voodoo, I see it as ridiculous to argue that we should expect any improvement at all after thousands of innings, hundreds of games, and hundreds of thousands of shagged balls. He is not LEARNING to play left. And as time goes by and his body fills out, he's going to get bigger and older. Having a career's worth of experience without improvement doesn't preclude him from improving after doubling that experience...sure. But to expect it, or to even insist its likely...just seems like a polyanna take.

blandman
07-10-2019, 12:20 PM
The point that hasn't been made enough in this thread is that despite Eloy maybe not being the best defensive left fielder, he's going to be playing alongside Luis Robert who has the tools to be one of the best defensive centerfielders in baseball.

Eloy isn't going to have to cover all that much ground playing alongside Luis Robert. His defense really isn't nearly as big of a deal as his bat, which has a lot more value from an outfield spot than as a DH.

When you've got Robert, Basabe, Walker, Rutherford, Adolfo, et. all eventually fighting for an outfield spot, it makes sense to plan on the worst defender in that pretty darn impressive outfield mix of prospects to move somewhere else on the diamond. Especially when your 1B/DH prospect depth consists of one guy that you just drafted, and then nothing.

blandman
07-10-2019, 12:21 PM
Am I actually reading advocating a trade involving Eloy because of his defensive skills or apparent lack thereof? Are you people high?

You are not. I have never advocated that, I'm talking about moving his position. I very firmly view Eloy as the best hitter in our system.

cards press box
07-10-2019, 12:39 PM
And his offensive production is going to dwarf Lee's...

Will it ever!

Did you miss the first inning Saturday? He caused a run on a routine fly ball out because he reacted too slowly.

He has athleticism. He doesn't have instincts. After what is now almost 6 years of playing left field, he still cannot consistently gauge fly ball distance on anything but line drives. I have little doubt at this point that there won't be any improvement.

I disagree. I've seen noticeable improvement in Eloy's defense and he's just going to get better.

thomas35forever
07-10-2019, 12:41 PM
You are not. I have never advocated that, I'm talking about moving his position. I very firmly view Eloy as the best hitter in our system.
That's fine, but this conversation seems to be firmly focused on his defense. This is highlighting the underlying opinion of several fans that think if a player hasn't mastered defense at a certain position the moment they hit the bigs, they're a lost cause there. Doesn't matter if they're a rookie or not. What we see now is what we'll see their entire career apparently. How foolish of me to think his ceiling hasn't been reached yet.

blandman
07-10-2019, 12:47 PM
That's fine, but this conversation seems to be firmly focused on his defense. This is highlighting the underlying opinion of several fans that think if a player hasn't mastered defense at a certain position the moment they hit the bigs, they're a lost cause there. Doesn't matter if they're a rookie or not. What we see now is what we'll see their entire career apparently. How foolish of me to think his ceiling hasn't been reached yet.

And see, that's re-imagining the argument without context. The reality of the situation is we have a guy that has played LF exclusively since 16, had the benefit of professional coaches for six years, and has shown no improvement in his instincts that would lead one to assume he'd be close to an average defender.

I'm not down on Eloy. I do, however, feel he has proven that he is not an outfielder.

If we didn't have other options, you hope the bat makes up for it. But we will. So it's time to explore where else he can fit on our team.

ChiTownTrojan
07-10-2019, 12:53 PM
When you've got Robert, Basabe, Walker, Rutherford, Adolfo, et. all eventually fighting for an outfield spot, it makes sense to plan on the worst defender in that pretty darn impressive outfield mix of prospects to move somewhere else on the diamond. Especially when your 1B/DH prospect depth consists of one guy that you just drafted, and then nothing.

Other than Robert, none of those guys are close to the majors. I'm confident one will be able to make it and be a starter in RF. Two would have to make it (and be starter quality) to consider moving Eloy out of LF. If that happens it's a good problem to have, but there's no point in doing it now.

blandman
07-10-2019, 01:14 PM
Other than Robert, none of those guys are close to the majors. I'm confident one will be able to make it and be a starter in RF. Two would have to make it (and be starter quality) to consider moving Eloy out of LF. If that happens it's a good problem to have, but there's no point in doing it now.

Except when we've got 4 outfielders all that need one outfield position that's blocked with a guy that has no business in the outfield and has no where else to play because we failed to make the move in the appropriate window...

If we wait until 2021 or 2022 to teach Eloy to play 1B or 3B, we make our window weaker.

ChiTownTrojan
07-10-2019, 01:32 PM
Except when we've got 4 outfielders all that need one outfield position that's blocked with a guy that has no business in the outfield and has no where else to play because we failed to make the move in the appropriate window...

If we wait until 2021 or 2022 to teach Eloy to play 1B or 3B, we make our window weaker.

But he isn't blocking anyone now, and likely never will be. If two of the prospects you mentioned end up being starters at the major league level I would be very (pleasantly) surprised. If that happens then you can move Eloy. But I'm much more confident that one of Sheets, Vaughn, or Burger will be a starting major league 1B than I am that two of Adolfo, Basabe, Rutherford, Gonzalez, and Walker will be starting major league OFs.

I doubt 3B would ever be a consideration... you think his reactions are too slow for the OF but want to move him to the hot corner? Besides, that position is most assuredly blocked at the major league level.

Domeshot17
07-10-2019, 01:40 PM
Except when we've got 4 outfielders all that need one outfield position that's blocked with a guy that has no business in the outfield and has no where else to play because we failed to make the move in the appropriate window...

If we wait until 2021 or 2022 to teach Eloy to play 1B or 3B, we make our window weaker.

Who are the 4 OF?

kobo
07-10-2019, 01:44 PM
When you've got Robert, Basabe, Walker, Rutherford, Adolfo, et. all eventually fighting for an outfield spot, it makes sense to plan on the worst defender in that pretty darn impressive outfield mix of prospects to move somewhere else on the diamond. Especially when your 1B/DH prospect depth consists of one guy that you just drafted, and then nothing.
Great! Then 2-3 years from now we can start worrying about where Eloy will be playing. For right now, he's in LF. End of story.

blandman
07-10-2019, 01:44 PM
Who are the 4 OF?

We've got Eloy and Robert who are cemented in roles if Eloy sticks in the outfield. Then we've got Alexander Basabe, Steele Walker, Blake Rutherford, Micker Adolfo, and Luis Mieses just vying for one role. Meanwhile, we have a single promising prospect that can fill roles as a corner infielder.

I know depth is a great thing to have, but since Eloy is world's worse defensively than every possible outcome, it makes sense to give him work elsewhere before they push the issue.

blandman
07-10-2019, 01:45 PM
Great! Then 2-3 years from now we can start worrying about where Eloy will be playing. For right now, he's in LF. End of story.

No, it's now or never. 2-3 years from now is the window. You sabotage the window by having someone learn a new position on the fly.

kobo
07-10-2019, 01:47 PM
Except when we've got 4 outfielders all that need one outfield position that's blocked with a guy that has no business in the outfield and has no where else to play because we failed to make the move in the appropriate window...

If we wait until 2021 or 2022 to teach Eloy to play 1B or 3B, we make our window weaker.
Now you're just talking out of your ass. He's bad at LF and will only continue to get bigger, stronger and slower (according to you) and you want the Sox to move him to 3B. Talk about ridiculous.

kobo
07-10-2019, 01:49 PM
No, it's now or never. 2-3 years from now is the window. You sabotage the window by having someone learn a new position on the fly.
No, it isn't. It really isn't now or never. Stop being overly dramatic and hyperbolic. It's nauseating.

blandman
07-10-2019, 01:53 PM
No, it isn't. It really isn't now or never. Stop being overly dramatic and hyperbolic. It's nauseating.

We are not moving a player to 1B for his first major league exposure in the infield the same year we're expecting to make a push for the playoffs. Come on. Of course it has to be now. Stop being overly simplifying. It's nauseating.

TomBradley72
07-10-2019, 01:59 PM
Except when we've got 4 outfielders all that need one outfield position that's blocked with a guy that has no business in the outfield and has no where else to play because we failed to make the move in the appropriate window...

If we wait until 2021 or 2022 to teach Eloy to play 1B or 3B, we make our window weaker.

For a guy who (according to you) can't handle LF? and with Moncada already there?

:bong:

blandman
07-10-2019, 02:01 PM
For a guy who (according to you) can't handle LF? and with Moncada already there?

:bong:

Fair, but at least we don't know how good he could be there. We know what he is in left.

I think it'll be moot and they'll grin and bear it with him as the DH. Provided they don't do something stupid and sign a guy to big money to DH because it's cheaper and they can say "look we spend".

XplodingScorbord
07-10-2019, 02:02 PM
No, it's now or never. 2-3 years from now is the window. You sabotage the window by having someone learn a new position on the fly.

Do you make absolutist posts like this to amuse yourself? Here, let me try:

No! Eloy shows no aptitude at defense at a position heís played for thousands of innings! You cannot put him at any defensive position whatsoever because he has no ability for it!

I suppose Iíll deserve a rip for this post and I suppose Iíll accept it. Youíve taken this site from a place of lively yet mostly reasonable baseball discussion to borderline absurd. A 22 year old canít hone his subpar defensive skills and improve to the point of being average or slightly below? How did Giolito turn it around? Heís almost 25! Might as well quit working with Nick Madrigal. Heís 22 so clearly a finished product. See how ridiculous your argument is? Give it a rest, please, for all of our sanity.

DumpJerry
07-10-2019, 02:17 PM
Am I actually reading advocating a trade involving Eloy because of his defensive skills or apparent lack thereof? Are you people high?
You read my mind.

**** it, Hahn ****ed up again when he gave away Quintana to the Cubs for this Eloy hack. Hell, I'm sure that the Cease kid also plays LF like a blind mouse. Damn, suckered again.

I remember during the disaster otherwise known as the 2005 White Sox season, we had a poster who said Podsednik (who played LF) needed glasses in the field he was so bad......

Domeshot17
07-10-2019, 02:27 PM
We don't know how good he would be at Catcher but I wouldn't stick him there either because of lack of depth.

Also, of all the guys you listed, one is performing at a level that we can expect Basabe is playing like a 4th OF at best right now, Walker is really young, Rutherford has shown absolutely no power, and doesn't have the bat control Madrigal does where that is okay, Adolfo has been terrible and I feel no need to appoint a 19 year old with no power in Rookie ball to anything.

So to recap, you want Eloy to learn to play 3b RIGHT NOW to make room for the following players along with Steele Walker, collectively who have never had one triple A Bat:

.205 (AA)
.227 (AA)
.265/.675 (AA)
.292/.698 (Rookie)

I think we can afford a little time if any of these guys ever figure it out.

TDog
07-10-2019, 03:02 PM
Great! Then 2-3 years from now we can start worrying about where Eloy will be playing. For right now, he's in LF. End of story.


I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp.

There is a huge difference between having an outfielder who DHs and having a designated hitter. Where Jimenez winds up in six years will depend on the composition and needs of the team in six years. Deciding now that he will be a designated hitter in six years will limit what the team can do in the future.

I chose six years, but you could do the same with two or three years. I don't believe the White Sox will seriously be contending in two or three years unless they find a lot of pitching very soon, but windows, especially imagined ones, aren't relevant to the discussion.

voodoochile
07-10-2019, 03:05 PM
Voodoo, I see it as ridiculous to argue that we should expect any improvement at all after thousands of innings, hundreds of games, and hundreds of thousands of shagged balls. He is not LEARNING to play left. And as time goes by and his body fills out, he's going to get bigger and older. Having a career's worth of experience without improvement doesn't preclude him from improving after doubling that experience...sure. But to expect it, or to even insist its likely...just seems like a polyanna take.

The fact he is not learning to play LF is immaterial to the question of can he still improve.

kobo
07-10-2019, 03:25 PM
We are not moving a player to 1B for his first major league exposure in the infield the same year we're expecting to make a push for the playoffs. Come on. Of course it has to be now. Stop being overly simplifying. It's nauseating.
Do you honestly see them moving Eloy to 1B? Given everything else going on in the organization why do you think they would move him to 1B? Because that's what you would do? This is not being based on any reality and is simply armchair General Managing. I'm not over simplifying anything here. You are the one tossing opinions around like facts and once again trying to make yourself out to be smarter than everyone else.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2019, 03:54 PM
That's a non-starter, because many of us and many publications realize that he isn't going to improve in left. He's had a ton of experience there.

Defense matters. You can't hide a bat in the outfield, it will cost you games.

White Sox Roving OF Instructor Aaron Rowand has to work with 20-30 OFs spread across from North Carolina and Birmingham to the DR, to Arizona, to Montana.

Birmingham and Charlotte each have only four coaches (including the manager), none of whom are listed as working with ďdefense,Ē much less outfielders.

Daryl Boston has to work with, at most, 5 OFs, with whom he always travels on the same team charter throughout the 6-month season.

You seriously donít think the additional one-on-one time that Eloy will get with Boston will make any difference?

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2019, 04:00 PM
The reality of the situation is we have a guy that has played LF exclusively since 16.

Wrong. He played some RF in the Cubs organization and with Winston-Salem. His ďexclusiveĒ play of LF only began with his promotion to Birmingham.

If another Sox OF hits close to what Eloy does, but plays better defense, (and we already have RF filled with a player who can hit and field well), then sure, letís move Eloy to DH then.

But not now. Not when he still can get daily instruction from a full-time coach whose primary responsibility (other than during games and the Sox are batting, when he is coaching first base) is working with the outfielders on their defense.

Mohoney
07-10-2019, 04:21 PM
We've got Eloy and Robert who are cemented in roles if Eloy sticks in the outfield. Then we've got Alexander Basabe, Steele Walker, Blake Rutherford, Micker Adolfo, and Luis Mieses just vying for one role. Meanwhile, we have a single promising prospect that can fill roles as a corner infielder.

I know depth is a great thing to have, but since Eloy is world's worse defensively than every possible outcome, it makes sense to give him work elsewhere before they push the issue.
Maybe Rutherford will earn a spot sometime in 2021, but thatís about it. If so, then Eloy effortlessly moves to DH.

At this point, I think Basabe and Adolfo are about as likely to completely fizzle out as they are to become meaningful MLB contributors. Walker is still in A-advanced. Mieses is still in Rookie advanced.

kittle42
07-10-2019, 04:33 PM
Wrong. He played some RF in the Cubs organization and with Winston-Salem. His “exclusive” play of LF only began with his promotion to Birmingham.

Just to nitpick, he actually played 13 games in RF with Birmingham in 2018, too.

You know, if posters want to spout bull**** and make statements like "exclusively," at least make it bull**** that isn't easily fact checked. That's "the reality of the situation."

blandman
07-10-2019, 04:53 PM
Is the argument now that a handful of time in Right Field somehow hindered Eloy's ability to judge flyballs? :?:

I've had about enough of this debate. Cheers guys. :gulp:

rdivaldi
07-10-2019, 06:03 PM
It is easy to take the right route when you react so slowly.

:?: So, his reacting a few tenths of a second slower makes it easy to take a better route? I'm dying to hear why this is the case.

kittle42
07-10-2019, 07:24 PM
Is the argument now that a handful of time in Right Field somehow hindered Eloy's ability to judge flyballs? :?:

I've had about enough of this debate. Cheers guys. :gulp:

No, the argument is that your posts include bold, unsupported declarations, and that they are so ridiculously negative so as to pretty much be trolling.

Brian26
07-10-2019, 07:26 PM
:?: So, his reacting a few tenths of a second slower makes it easy to take a better route? I'm dying to hear why this is the case.

NOT a few tenths, slower, rdivaldi. Literally, five seconds slower. That's what the guy told us because he went to the game and observed in person:

What Eloy are you watching? Watching today from left field, I saw a guy that jumped forward 5 seconds after a normal outfielder would move forward, allowing a routine fly ball to be a basehit.

He hasn't gotten better. And he doesn't look relaxed. He looks perplexed and bad. Very very bad.

kittle42
07-10-2019, 08:10 PM
I am very glad message board fans are not an accurate depiction of the average baseball fan.

Mohoney
07-10-2019, 08:24 PM
I am very glad message board fans are not an accurate depiction of the average baseball fan.
No way. The people here are WAY more attuned than the average baseball fan. Being among people who are this passionate and knowledgable about the game is a feature, not a bug. Itís one of the reasons that the sarcastic ďWelcome to WSIĒ smiley is just infuriatingly dumb. I think people who care so strongly about this teamís future deserve our support, not our disdain.

I would take five WSI posters over fifty average baseball fans any day of the week.

blurry
07-10-2019, 10:13 PM
I am very glad message board fans are not an accurate depiction of the average baseball fan.

Says you. This thread is incredibly entertaining.

KenBerryGrab
07-10-2019, 10:18 PM
The ball comes off the bat so differently in right compared with left. It's not unusual for time to adjust. Anyone who has actually played outfield knows that.

Hitmen77
07-10-2019, 10:58 PM
No way. The people here are WAY more attuned than the average baseball fan. Being among people who are this passionate and knowledgable about the game is a feature, not a bug. Itís one of the reasons that the sarcastic ďWelcome to WSIĒ smiley is just infuriatingly dumb. I think people who care so strongly about this teamís future deserve our support, not our disdain.

I would take five WSI posters over fifty average baseball fans any day of the week.

I see those more often than not as a reaction to hyperbolic posts or incessant negativity. It's your right to not like that, but that doesn't make them "infuriatingly dumb."

:welcome: :tongue:

Mohoney
07-11-2019, 12:19 AM
I see those more often than not as a reaction to hyperbolic posts or incessant negativity. It's your right to not like that, but that doesn't make them "infuriatingly dumb."

:welcome: :tongue:
Meh. Itís just obnoxious elitism.

kittle42
07-11-2019, 12:46 AM
Meh. Itís just obnoxious elitism.

There is nothing elitist about calling an unintelligent comment unintelligent. Obnoxious, sure. But not elitist.

Mohoney
07-11-2019, 01:51 AM
There is nothing elitist about calling an unintelligent comment unintelligent. Obnoxious, sure. But not elitist.
The problem is that it says nothing at all about the post. All it does is impugn the intelligence of a large group of posters while contributing absolutely nothing of value itself.

Itís also hackneyed crap.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2019, 06:11 AM
Just to nitpick, he actually played 13 games in RF with Birmingham in 2018, too.

You know, if posters want to spout bull**** and make statements like "exclusively," at least make it bull**** that isn't easily fact checked. That's "the reality of the situation."

Good catch.

Also, there are vagaries and idiosyncrasies to every outfield at every stadium, and differences within each given stadium. Obviously the Green Monster is the most extreme example, but even at Guaranteed Rate Field - a relatively symmetrical stadium - the view from the RF is going to differ from the view of the LF. Specifically, the orientation of the diamond means that the LF will be facing west toward the afternoon/evening sun, depending on the time of day and time of year. The RF will be facing north, and so will not have to contend with the sun in the same way. Also, each stadium has its lights mounted and aimed differently, which will affect how the ball looks based both on the trajectory and where the fielder is standing.

It is ludicrous to suggest that additional experience in MLBís stadiums - including your own home stadium - after years of playing in minor league ballparks, PLUS individualized coaching by a full-time outfield coach, would have zero effect on a playerís reaction time and/or ability to pick up the ball.

asindc
07-11-2019, 09:17 AM
There is nothing elitist about calling an unintelligent comment unintelligent. Obnoxious, sure. But not elitist.

Exactly.

Harry Chappas
07-11-2019, 11:25 AM
The problem is that it says nothing at all about the post. All it does is impugn the intelligence of a large group of posters while contributing absolutely nothing of value itself.

Itís also hackneyed crap.

I'm not following. Seems like the Welcome to WSI thing is usually used when someone makes a post along the lines of "I can't believe someone is bagging on a 22-year old phenom". Who is the large group of poster being "impugned"?

voodoochile
07-11-2019, 11:29 AM
I'm not following. Seems like the Welcome to WSI thing is usually used when someone makes a post along the lines of "I can't believe someone is bagging on a 22-year old phenom". Who is the large group of poster being "impugned"?

The people bagging on the 22-YO phenom...

Edit: I just want to add that many years ago people used to argue that Frank Thomas shouldn't play first because he didn't have a good throwing arm. That's right people actually used the lack of a good arm as a reason to rip on a HOF player playing first base. Now that was a welcome to WSI moment...

MISoxfan
07-11-2019, 11:43 AM
I'm not following. Seems like the Welcome to WSI thing is usually used when someone makes a post along the lines of "I can't believe someone is bagging on a 22-year old phenom". Who is the large group of poster being "impugned"?

I think his point is that it implies that WSI is full of morons who like to bag on 22-year old phenoms. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see that interpretation.

voodoochile
07-11-2019, 11:45 AM
I think his point is that it implies that WSI is full of morons who like to bag on 22-year old phenoms. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see that interpretation.

It's all in perception. I use that tag sarcastically myself, but I'm not thinking "this guy's a moron" when I do, I'm thinking "This conversation is over the top and a crossing the line into ridiculous."

DumpJerry
07-11-2019, 11:51 AM
okay, this thread has gone from a discussion about Eloy to analyzing the relative intelligence of people here.

Closed before it becomes even more personal.

Nellie_Fox
07-12-2019, 12:53 AM
I think the original intend of the "Welcome to WSI" tag was to, you know, welcome new people to WSI. The little waving guy has a genuine smile, not a smirk, not rolling eyes. The sarcasm came from the posters, not the tag.