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View Full Version : *Official* 5/29/19 Sox Sweep The Royals Postgamer


hoosiersoxfan
05-29-2019, 10:19 PM
Crazy start with the beaning and ejection. Renteria definitely left Lopez in a couple batters too long. TA7 clutch once again and Colome locks it down. It's been a long time since the Sox had a closer be as lights out as Colome is right now.

:bandance:

shingo10
05-29-2019, 10:23 PM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.

Huisj
05-29-2019, 10:24 PM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.

No joke. I got hit in high school by much slower stuff than that and it’s not fun.

cbone
05-29-2019, 10:29 PM
Wrong date on the thread. Alonso 0 for 4. So glad to pull out a win on this one. McCaan and Anderson looking to be key pieces.

Mohoney
05-29-2019, 10:33 PM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.
What they meant was that an intentional plunking would have been thrown harder than 86mph. I don’t think it was intentional, either, but the Royals can go pound sand.

ChiSoxNationPres
05-29-2019, 10:36 PM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.

I don't think they were downplaying the act of getting hit in the head with an 86 MPH pitch, they were saying that it was likely not a fastball, thus not on purpose. I read the pitcher's lips after and he said something along the lines that it was a changeup. It didn't look like he was trying to hit Anderson.

TDog
05-29-2019, 10:56 PM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.

Anderson may well have been hit intentionally, not to injure him or send him a message, but to take him out of the game. (Even if the pitcher said "that was a changup," it could have been construed as "next time it will be a fastball," And while Anderson didn't do or say anything to get ejected after he was hit, the Royals may have thought they effectively took him out, had him playing too angry to be effective. A lot of teams would have put Anderson on with Sanchez coming up, although Sanchez was having a pretty good series. That Anderson came up with the big hit reflects well on his character.

Obviously, the game shouldn't have been this close. Any confidence I have in Herrera is gone. I wonder if Renteria left Lopez in as long as he did because he lacks faith in the bullpen, but he seems to have more confidence in Herrera than I've had this season. It's possible he saw the game as a learning experience for Lopez, who will need to work out of trouble as a starter.

I expected the White Sox to sweep the Royals this week, a belief that has more to do with my opinion of the Royals than the White Sox. The fact that all three games were decided by one run, I think reflects well on the Sox because they won games they could easily have lost, not being able to do anything in the rain Monday until coming up with a necessary run in the rainy fifth, coming from being on Tuesday and coming back after losing a big lead on Wednesday. In the last two games they blew chances where a sacrifice fly would have added to the lead, but they did what they needed to win.

The lack of really good teams in the league probably makes the White Sox look better than they are. And last weekend against the Twins probably puts things into perspective. But it's good to see the Sox sweep the Royals.

QueerGirrl
05-29-2019, 10:56 PM
A Sox win on Voodoo’s b-day!!
:bandance: :gulp: :happybday
:soxwin:

slavko
05-29-2019, 11:15 PM
I don't think they were downplaying the act of getting hit in the head with an 86 MPH pitch, they were saying that it was likely not a fastball, thus not on purpose. I read the pitcher's lips after and he said something along the lines that it was a changeup. It didn't look like he was trying to hit Anderson.

The pitch had the up and in action of a four-seamer, but 86 is not fastball speed. My guess? A "purpose pitch," the fastball with something taken off of it.

Brian26
05-29-2019, 11:15 PM
What they meant was that an intentional plunking would have been thrown harder than 86mph. I don’t think it was intentional, either, but the Royals can go pound sand.

I don't the pitch was thrown intentionally to hit him. I watched it a couple of times. It just simply got away. Now, considering the circumstances, it seems too coincidental. I really think it just got away though.

Great win nonetheless.

Mohoney
05-29-2019, 11:18 PM
Colomé and McCann look like they may bring back a nice haul at the trade deadline. Hopefully Abreu can build some more trade value in June.

voodoochile
05-29-2019, 11:41 PM
A Sox win on Voodoo’s b-day!!
:bandance: :gulp: :happybday
:soxwin:

Seems like it happens most years actually. But I'm probably just a victim of confirmation bias. It was fun, though I admit I was a bit peeved when the Royals tied it up.

It just set the stage for Tim to be the hero and pay those punk ass bitches from KC back...

TomBradley72
05-29-2019, 11:51 PM
What a clown show by Rentaria and his managing of Lopez tonight.

He had thrown 93 pitches through 5 inning with 1 ER allowed, but dodging alot of bulletts, and maybe stealing a win for himself.

We should have had someone up in the pen- and warm- and Lopez should have been pulled after letting up the 2 run bomb to make it 7-3.

BUT- we have no one up in the pen until deep into the inning- so by the time he's finally pulled, it's now 7-5, he's thrown 118 pitches(!), and his line is now
5 2/3 IP 5 ER, and he's leaving the game as a failure.

I was sitting right behind home plate- ypu could see him laboring and losing his command as they teed off on him throughout the 6th inning.

I'm all for extending these guys for their development- but this was ridiculous.

DrCrawdad
05-29-2019, 11:52 PM
I love all Sox wins. But wins over ALC rivals are tops. Oh and Ned Yost’s clown crew can go ...

TomBradley72
05-29-2019, 11:56 PM
On a more positive note- an incredible game by Leury Garcia- he made 2 "hang a star on that one" plays, a few other nice ones and had 3 hits raising his average to .293 (.308 over the last 30 games)- he's very inconsistent on defense- but tonight he played a 1st class center field.

ChiSoxNationPres
05-30-2019, 12:25 AM
What a clown show by Rentaria and his managing of Lopez tonight.

He had thrown 93 pitches through 5 inning with 1 ER allowed, but dodging alot of bulletts, and maybe stealing a win for himself.

We should have had someone up in the pen- and warm- and Lopez should have been pulled after letting up the 2 run bomb to make it 7-3.

BUT- we have no one up in the pen until deep into the inning- so by the time he's finally pulled, it's now 7-5, he's thrown 118 pitches(!), and his line is now
5 2/3 IP 5 ER, and he's leaving the game as a failure.

I was sitting right behind home plate- ypu could see him laboring and losing his command as they teed off on him throughout the 6th inning.

I'm all for extending these guys for their development- but this was ridiculous.


Agree with this. It wasn't like he was throwing a gem and you have to let him continue because he isn't at 100 pitches yet. So he leaves him in and give up a few runs, and then STILL keeps him in when he was clearly done and threw a ton of pitches. Horrible management of the game and situation.

insp
05-30-2019, 02:16 AM
Colomé and McCann look like they may bring back a nice haul at the trade deadline. Hopefully Abreu can build some more trade value in June.

So you see the White Sox as a Bush league team to develop talent for other teams? When will we start to reap the supposed fruits of this rebuilding process or do you want the Sox to be forever mired in training camp for other teams mode?

Falstaff
05-30-2019, 02:52 AM
So you see the White Sox as a Bush league team to develop talent for other teams? When will we start to reap the supposed fruits of this rebuilding process or do you want the Sox to be forever mired in training camp for other teams mode?
Thank you. Jose Abreu brings not only a bat but a heart to this team. He has delivered everything we asked him to do, from his arrival at the start of the previous rebuild. He stays.

TDog
05-30-2019, 03:03 AM
I don't the pitch was thrown intentionally to hit him. I watched it a couple of times. It just simply got away. Now, considering the circumstances, it seems too coincidental. I really think it just got away though.

Great win nonetheless.


In Anderson's previous trip to the plate against the Royals, he was hit and subsequently ejected and picked up a suspension. That wasn't something the Royals had forgotten before the first pitch was a ball inside, and the second pitch hit him.

I could believe Sparkman made it look like the pitch got away from him. I find it hard to believe there wasn't a message behind it.

Grzegorz
05-30-2019, 04:03 AM
I could believe Sparkman made it look like the pitch got away from him. I find it hard to believe there wasn't a message behind it.
The pitch got away from Sparkman. Because of past history he paid the price and rightly so.


Move on; win more games.

harwar
05-30-2019, 04:13 AM
It seemed that Sparkman was trying to brush Anderson back with every pitch, but i can't believe that he was trying to hit him in the head, that's just so extreme . it was weird the way that he was starring at his hand after the pitch though, like, "what the hell did you do", heh

There's nothing that gets my blood flowing more than great defense by the center fielder . Garcia has attempted plays like he made last night before, but he always seemed to hold something back . last night he just let it fly, and had great routes and good jumps (pun unintended). hoping that he can keep it up, as he's been pretty good at leadoff, except that i wished he walked more.

I was scratching my head at Renteria leaving Lopez in so long . from day one, i have had no confidence in Herrera to get the job done . quite the opposite of Colome, who has been simply awesome . Alonso was the only guy at the plate without a hit or rbi.

TDog
05-30-2019, 04:26 AM
The pitch got away from Sparkman. Because of past history he paid the price and rightly so. ....

Anderson didn't believe that. The umpire didn't believe that. If he did, he would have issued a warning. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone believes that.

BigKlu59
05-30-2019, 05:18 AM
Ned Yost and the Royals can go pound sand. Love beating those guys and their whining hineys. Any win over a division foe is glorious, especially those pain in the butt Royals. What could have been a laugher became a Tums chewer, but the good guys prevailed.

Go you White Sox!!!!

BK59

Mohoney
05-30-2019, 06:20 AM
Thank you. Jose Abreu brings not only a bat but a heart to this team. He has delivered everything we asked him to do, from his arrival at the start of the previous rebuild. He stays.

You are aware that Abreu’s contract ends when this season ends, correct? If they want him back, they can sign him in free agency. Keeping him for two months in a go-nowhere season makes no sense. Besides, with the way this team spends money, his league-average production for his position should not eat up such a large portion of the payroll.

Mohoney
05-30-2019, 06:23 AM
So you see the White Sox as a Bush league team to develop talent for other teams? When will we start to reap the supposed fruits of this rebuilding process or do you want the Sox to be forever mired in training camp for other teams mode?
Forever, no. This year, absolutely. When you’re not competitive, you sell pending free agents at the trade deadline.

Railsplitter
05-30-2019, 06:37 AM
:bandance:
:bandance:
:bandance:

A nice little winning streak. Now to turn it into a nice big winning streak.
:sweep

Chez
05-30-2019, 07:13 AM
What a clown show by Rentaria and his managing of Lopez tonight.

He had thrown 93 pitches through 5 inning with 1 ER allowed, but dodging alot of bulletts, and maybe stealing a win for himself.

We should have had someone up in the pen- and warm- and Lopez should have been pulled after letting up the 2 run bomb to make it 7-3.

BUT- we have no one up in the pen until deep into the inning- so by the time he's finally pulled, it's now 7-5, he's thrown 118 pitches(!), and his line is now
5 2/3 IP 5 ER, and he's leaving the game as a failure.

I was sitting right behind home plate- ypu could see him laboring and losing his command as they teed off on him throughout the 6th inning.

I'm all for extending these guys for their development- but this was ridiculous.

I came on to post these exact sentiments. In general, I like Ricky. But I was shocked he let Lopez get pounded in the 6th. Lopez's pitch count was high (like it always is) and the Royals were hitting the ball hard (frequently right at Sox defenders). It made no sense and ultimately forced Renteria to use Colome for the third time in two days..

As for Herrera, it seemed like a foregone conclusion when he came in that the 2-run lead was going to evaporate. He didn't get hit hard, but the lead-off walk to Maldonado was a bad sign. Then a bunt single (that Herrera misplayed), a double-steal and a ground ball through the infield to tie the game.

I'm happy they won, but if you're going to carry a seven-man bullpen, there was no good reason to leave your starter out there in the bottom of the sixth under the circumstances.

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2019, 07:37 AM
The market for free agent first basemen in recent years demonstrates that Abreu is very unlikely to have much trade value. And trying to come to a "gentlemen's agreement" with him to sign him as a free agent after trading him would constitute tampering.


Colome would probably fetch a decent haul in return. McCann might interest a contender as well.


However, despite some very obvious flaws in the lineup, our offense is actually somewhat decent this year. Giolito has been excellent. Lopez and Nova have flashed occasional decency to go along with some ugliness.


I don't think this team would win a Wild Card spot. On the other hand, the Royals and Tigers are so putrid, and the Indians don't seem to be much better than us and could decide to become sellers if the Twins run away with the division (as it appears they are going to do).


I don't think it's the worst thing in the world for the Sox to keep Abreu (signing him to an extension), McCann, and Colome.


And moreover, why not see if James Shields is interested in signing a contract that would have him do a "spring training" in Charlotte, with the hopes that perhaps he could be a fresh arm to come an eat some innings after the All Star Break. Coupled with Cease, it would minimize the number of innings that have to be covered by Banuelos, Covey, and Fulmer, the latter two of which can continue their Charlotte-Chicago shuttle but in long relief rather than starting roles.



Maybe this only results in the Sox topping out at 80 wins. But after several seasons of losing, getting that close to .500 would both be tangible progress, and would provide some hope to a 2020 team that looks to be adding Kopech, Robert, and Collins.

Grzegorz
05-30-2019, 07:48 AM
Anderson didn't believe that. The umpire didn't believe that. If he did, he would have issued a warning. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone believes that.

Really?

"Carlson told a pool reporter postgame on Wednesday that the umpires knew of the previous situation between the two teams involving Anderson, and when Sparkman threw the ball up and in and hit Anderson in the head, it raised their awareness and they had to make a decision on how to handle the situation. Everyone, including Anderson, believed the pitch was an accident."

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/white-sox-rally-in-8th-to-sweep-royals

esbrechtel
05-30-2019, 08:04 AM
Tim keeping calm essentially won the game for us.

I freaking despise KC and Ned Yost. What a bunch of ass clowns. And their announcers were jackasses about the whole thing. "It was only 86 MPH..." I'd like to see their dumb ass stand there and take an 86 MPH pitch off the head. Dumbasses.

I hated that too! "Well it was only 86 mph" yes, it was an almost 90 mph pitch AT HIS HEAD. Accident or not, the guy has beaned him intentionally before and had he not been thrown out there would be another "retaliation" and this thing wouldn't ever die.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 08:20 AM
Anderson didn't believe that. The umpire didn't believe that. If he did, he would have issued a warning. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone believes that.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Dozier had to duck out of the way of a beanball right at his head that got away from Lopez in the top half. Lopez got lucky to duck because it was a fastball and wasn't going to get blocked by the brim if he didn't move.

I think Lopez pitch just got away from him, but Sparkman might have been trying to send a message and there was Tim waiting to receive it.

Cangelosi CF
05-30-2019, 08:33 AM
Ned Yost and the Royals can bite me. So can Renteria's mismanagement.

blurry
05-30-2019, 09:11 AM
So you see the White Sox as a Bush league team to develop talent for other teams? When will we start to reap the supposed fruits of this rebuilding process or do you want the Sox to be forever mired in training camp for other teams mode?

I like what James McCann is doing so far in that he's proving me wrong on both sides of the plate. However, his BABIP is .435 leading me to believe that some serious regression is coming. This feels all too much like Avi Garcia part 2 so I'd be perfectly fine with them selling high on McCann.

I'd keep Colome around though.

blurry
05-30-2019, 09:13 AM
Ned Yost and the Royals can bite me. So can Renteria's mismanagement.

Agreed on all fronts. Benetti immediately and thoroughly explained why the ump tossed the KC pitcher even if the pitch wasn't intentional. And Renteria almost lost us another game yet again.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 09:24 AM
I like what James McCann is doing so far in that he's proving me wrong on both sides of the plate. However, his BABIP is .435 leading me to believe that some serious regression is coming. This feels all too much like Avi Garcia part 2 so I'd be perfectly fine with them selling high on McCann.

I'd keep Colome around though.

Probably on McCann, but he's currently tied for the lead in catcher WAR for all of baseball at 1.9 and he's done it in 1/3 less AB than Contreras who he's tied with.

asindc
05-30-2019, 09:55 AM
Agreed on all fronts. Benetti immediately and thoroughly explained why the ump tossed the KC pitcher even if the pitch wasn't intentional. And Renteria almost lost us another game yet again.

Benetti was absolutely right about it. KC had no call to complain when they set this all in motion in the first place. Don't want your pitcher tossed? Stop throwing at batters.

Harry Chappas
05-30-2019, 10:05 AM
Anderson didn't believe that. The umpire didn't believe that. If he did, he would have issued a warning. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone believes that.

I don't know. I watched it several times and it just didn't feel intentional to me. Still, he needed to be tossed to keep things from boiling over and because they lost the benefit of the doubt after plunking TA last series.

As for the comments about trading McCann, Abreu, and Colome, I'm of the opinion that you make everyone available and see if anyone blows you away with an offer. Realistically, I don't know what that would look like. Cubs gave up Gleyber Torres for a Chapman rental. I doubt any of our guys would yield that kind of return, but who knows? Lots of good teams in need of a closer.

FielderJones
05-30-2019, 10:11 AM
Obviously, the game shouldn't have been this close. Any confidence I have in Herrera is gone. I wonder if Renteria left Lopez in as long as he did because he lacks faith in the bullpen, but he seems to have more confidence in Herrera than I've had this season. It's possible he saw the game as a learning experience for Lopez, who will need to work out of trouble as a starter.


Herrera was close to lights-out in April, as his game logs (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=herreke01&t=p&year=2019) show. 10 appearances giving up 0 runs, 4 appearances giving up 1 run, 1 inherited runner scored in 14 appearances, 2.51 ERA.


Things have fallen apart for him in May, which I would attribute to the injury. I think it's time to hand the 8th inning setup duties to Marshall, who has shown ice in his veins on all appearances.



Kudos to the Sox for finding a way to win after blowing a big lead, courtesy their three All Stars.

hoosiersoxfan
05-30-2019, 10:36 AM
Realistically, I don't know what that would look like. Cubs gave up Gleyber Torres for a Chapman rental. I doubt any of our guys would yield that kind of return, but who knows? Lots of good teams in need of a closer.

I don't think the return would be all the great for Colome. I heard Jeff Passan say there are going to be a whole lot of back end relievers available before the deadline. If this is true then it probably lessens what teams would give up for Colome if there is another good option available that won't cost as much. I'd have no problem with the Sox holding onto him unless they get blown away with an offer.

Flight #24
05-30-2019, 10:40 AM
Herrera was close to lights-out in April, as his game logs (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=herreke01&t=p&year=2019) show. 10 appearances giving up 0 runs, 4 appearances giving up 1 run, 1 inherited runner scored in 14 appearances, 2.51 ERA.


Things have fallen apart for him in May, which I would attribute to the injury. I think it's time to hand the 8th inning setup duties to Marshall, who has shown ice in his veins on all appearances.



Kudos to the Sox for finding a way to win after blowing a big lead, courtesy their three All Stars.

Herrera has been horriblem but what absolutely roasted my nuts last night was that his 2 runs were on mental errors - not hustling on the bunt and then not paying attention to the runners. Inexcusable.

As for trading, I'm fully on board with trying to retain McCann, even with some regression, he's providing solid D and catching, I can see something like a Collins/McCann platoon being quite nice and productive next year and that's a year that counts. So I'd say you need to get a pretty solid return to make dealing him worthwhile. This isn't a "take a fringe prospect or whatever you can get" situation.

Similar w Colome - he's here for another year if you want, and you'll need a closer next year. So I'm happy to deal him but only if you get back a valuable piece (and hopefully you can). But probably need to see Kimbrel sign post-draft and then target whoever loses out in that derby.

thomas35forever
05-30-2019, 11:09 AM
Probably on McCann, but he's currently tied for the lead in catcher WAR for all of baseball at 1.9 and he's done it in 1/3 less AB than Contreras who he's tied with.

Unless Zavala and Collins prove they're ready for The Show, I would keep McCann around not only for his offense, but for the fact that our pitchers seem to do better with him. The young arms in particular benefit from having him behind the plate. I'm all for testing our depth at catcher, but let's make sure it's stabilized before flipping McCann is even considered.

ChiTownTrojan
05-30-2019, 11:28 AM
Unless Zavala and Collins prove they're ready for The Show, I would keep McCann around not only for his offense, but for the fact that our pitchers seem to do better with him. The young arms in particular benefit from having him behind the plate. I'm all for testing our depth at catcher, but let's make sure it's stabilized before flipping McCann is even considered.

I agree. If Giolito's current run is at all tied to comfort working with McCann, then you can't get rid of him unless you're absolutely blown away with an offer (which isn't going to happen).

ChiTownTrojan
05-30-2019, 11:33 AM
I don't know. I watched it several times and it just didn't feel intentional to me. Still, he needed to be tossed to keep things from boiling over and because they lost the benefit of the doubt after plunking TA last series.

As for the comments about trading McCann, Abreu, and Colome, I'm of the opinion that you make everyone available and see if anyone blows you away with an offer. Realistically, I don't know what that would look like. Cubs gave up Gleyber Torres for a Chapman rental. I doubt any of our guys would yield that kind of return, but who knows? Lots of good teams in need of a closer.

Chapman is also probably the best reliever this decade, and had much more of a track record then Colome. In fact the only guy that would challenge Contreras for that title is currently a free agent - which is another reason that team's aren't going to be lining up to throw prospects at Colome when a better reliever could be had for nothing more than cash. Granted, Kimbrel will most likely be signed within a couple weeks, but that takes one of the "big spending" teams out of the running for Colome.

Still, all it takes is one team...

Paulwny
05-30-2019, 11:40 AM
The market for free agent first basemen in recent years demonstrates that Abreu is very unlikely to have much trade value. And trying to come to a "gentlemen's agreement" with him to sign him as a free agent after trading him would constitute tampering.

I doubt it.
In 2016 the Yanks traded Aroldis Chapman to the Cubs. He told the Yankee players that he'd be back after the season when he becomes a FA. In Dec 2016 he signed with the Yanks.

IMO, MLB should have a rule that if a player is traded in his FA year he can't sign a contract with the team that traded him for a 1 year period.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 12:07 PM
I doubt it.
In 2016 the Yanks traded Aroldis Chapman to the Cubs. He told the Yankee players that he'd be back after the season when he becomes a FA. In Dec 2016 he signed with the Yanks.

IMO, MLB should have a rule that if a player is traded in his FA year he can't sign a contract with the team that traded him for a 1 year period.

There is ZERO chance the MLBPA would allow that to happen. Anything that reduces the number of teams that can bid would restrict the market and potentially devalue the contract offered. Can you imagine if teams knew they didn't have to bid against the Yankees for a player?

TomBradley72
05-30-2019, 12:28 PM
I like what James McCann is doing so far in that he's proving me wrong on both sides of the plate. However, his BABIP is .435 leading me to believe that some serious regression is coming. This feels all too much like Avi Garcia part 2 so I'd be perfectly fine with them selling high on McCann.

I'd keep Colome around though.

I'm at the other end of the spectrum- I think you extend McCann for 2 years using the leverage you have right now- he's a great, veteran complement to Collins (who cannot hit lefties to save his life)- and gets us out of the scrap heap mess of Navarro, Avila, Castillo, etc. that we've been in for years.

He can regress a ton- the way he plays, I'm Ok with him as a .250 hitter + the other value he brings.

Paulwny
05-30-2019, 12:42 PM
There is ZERO chance the MLBPA would allow that to happen. Anything that reduces the number of teams that can bid would restrict the market and potentially devalue the contract offered. Can you imagine if teams knew they didn't have to bid against the Yankees for a player?

Something must be done when a player is LOANED to a team with promises that he'd be resigned by the loaning team. When the Yanks are out of contention they could LOAN out FA players to restock their farm teams only to then resign these FA players after the season.
Exactly as they did with Chapman.

Chez
05-30-2019, 01:07 PM
Something must be done when a player is LOANED to a team with promises that he'd be resigned by the loaning team. When the Yanks are out of contention they could LOAN out FA players to restock their farm teams only to then resign these FA players after the season.
Exactly as they did with Chapman.

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. I'm struggling to come up with another example of the Chapman situation. Very uncommon. And Chapman wasn't loaned. He wasn't obligated to return to New York. I believe in the "free" in free agency. A player should be able to sign with any team he wants to.

lpneck
05-30-2019, 01:13 PM
The lack of really good teams in the league probably makes the White Sox look better than they are. And last weekend against the Twins probably puts things into perspective. But it's good to see the Sox sweep the Royals.

You have made similar statements several times in the past few weeks about how there are too many bad teams and not enough teams are trying to win, and it is making baseball boring.

Right now in there are 22 of 30 MLB teams within 4 games of .500. All of those teams are within at least 4 games of a postseason slot. There are only 8 teams right now that are basically "out of it" at the end of May- Seattle, Detroit, Toronto, Kansas City, Washington, San Francisco, and Miami. There are 7 *excellent* teams in Houston, New York, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, the Cubs, the Dodgers, and Philadelphia. (And I think Boston and Milwaukee have underperformed at this point, and could be added to that list.)


On May 30, 1970- There was only 1 team in the AL that were less than 7 games out of first by the end of May. The Orioles and Twins had basically run away and hid, and would meet in the ALCS.

In the NL West, Cincinnati was already 20 games over .500- the Braves and Dodgers were both decent, but were already 6 and 7 games back. They would win the NL Pennant easily.

The NL East was the only competitive division, and at that point 5 of the 6 teams in the division were under .500.


On May 30, 1980- the American League was a hodgepodge of mediocrity. There were *2* teams that were more than 3 games above .500. The A's would finish in 2nd place in the AL West at 83-79, 14 games out. The National League was a little better.


On May 30, 1990- only 6 of 28 teams were better than 3 games over .500. 14 teams were already more than 6 games out of a postseason slot.


You can't have it both ways. There can't be a bunch of excellent teams AND a bunch of above average teams. There are exactly 2,430 wins to go around in an MLB season. If you want several really good teams, who rack up 95+ wins, then you are going to have several really bad teams who are losing 95+ games. If you want competitive balance, with 20 teams within striking distance of first place (and not a wild card slot), then that means that means no one can go out and be 30 games over- everyone needs to be within a few games of .500, and by definition you don't have any excellent teams.

There is not an issue with the competitive balance in baseball, and the math isn't any different this year than it has been for any of the previous 120+ seasons. There's a few really good teams, a few really bad teams, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

slavko
05-30-2019, 01:52 PM
I don't know. I watched it several times and it just didn't feel intentional to me. Still, he needed to be tossed to keep things from boiling over and because they lost the benefit of the doubt after plunking TA last series.



Try this: Four seam fastballs rise. Changeups sink. The pitch we're talking about rose. (Watch it again) It couldn't have been a changeup because no kind of changeup rises. When Sparkman said it was a changeup he had to be lying. Now that we know he was lying, we are right in assuming that it was a pitch thrown 86 MPH at Tim's head and the changeup story was an alibi. Lucky for Tim that Sparkman didn't throw it full speed or he would not have been able to get his head out of the way.

Once the lie has been established, we know it was intentional.

BigKlu59
05-30-2019, 02:19 PM
He threw at his head,period. I don’t give a damn if it was a knuckleball, change up or Efuss pitch. Those KC announcers are super homers. They put Hawk to shame with their constant Royal asskissing, game in and game out. They can never do wrong... never. Somebody needs to gag Rex Huddler. He talks so much he pulls thousands of liters of air out of the atmosphere.

BK59

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2019, 02:21 PM
You have made similar statements several times in the past few weeks about how there are too many bad teams and not enough teams are trying to win, and it is making baseball boring.

Right now in there are 22 of 30 MLB teams within 4 games of .500. All of those teams are within at least 4 games of a postseason slot. There are only 8 teams right now that are basically "out of it" at the end of May- Seattle, Detroit, Toronto, Kansas City, Washington, San Francisco, and Miami. There are 7 *excellent* teams in Houston, New York, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, the Cubs, the Dodgers, and Philadelphia. (And I think Boston and Milwaukee have underperformed at this point, and could be added to that list.)


On May 30, 1970- There was only 1 team in the AL that were less than 7 games out of first by the end of May. The Orioles and Twins had basically run away and hid, and would meet in the ALCS.

In the NL West, Cincinnati was already 20 games over .500- the Braves and Dodgers were both decent, but were already 6 and 7 games back. They would win the NL Pennant easily.

The NL East was the only competitive division, and at that point 5 of the 6 teams in the division were under .500.


On May 30, 1980- the American League was a hodgepodge of mediocrity. There were *2* teams that were more than 3 games above .500. The A's would finish in 2nd place in the AL West at 83-79, 14 games out. The National League was a little better.


On May 30, 1990- only 6 of 28 teams were better than 3 games over .500. 14 teams were already more than 6 games out of a postseason slot.


You can't have it both ways. There can't be a bunch of excellent teams AND a bunch of above average teams. There are exactly 1,215 wins to go around in an MLB season. If you want several really good teams, who rack up 95+ wins, then you are going to have several really bad teams who are losing 95+ games. If you want competitive balance, with 20 teams within striking distance of first place (and not a wild card slot), then that means that means no one can go out and be 30 games over- everyone needs to be within a few games of .500, and by definition you don't have any excellent teams.

There is not an issue with the competitive balance in baseball, and the math isn't any different this year than it has been for any of the previous 120+ seasons. There's a few really good teams, a few really bad teams, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

That 1215 number is off by half, if all 30 teams wound up at .500 with 81 wins each that comes out to 2430.

Mohoney
05-30-2019, 02:23 PM
Something must be done when a player is LOANED to a team with promises that he'd be resigned by the loaning team. When the Yanks are out of contention they could LOAN out FA players to restock their farm teams only to then resign these FA players after the season.
Exactly as they did with Chapman.
It’s only a loan if the player is guaranteed to return. All 29 other teams were free to outbid the Yankees. The Cubs were free to extend him while they had him and keep him off the free agent market altogether.

The Yankees did the right thing. They turned a few wasted months of a premier player’s services in a go-nowhere season into young talent. The White Sox absolutely should follow suit. Whether Abreu ends up traded or ends up staying, the end result is exactly the same; he will file for free agency after the World Series ends. The only opportunity cost for the White Sox is not trading him.

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2019, 02:39 PM
You have made similar statements several times in the past few weeks about how there are too many bad teams and not enough teams are trying to win, and it is making baseball boring.

Right now in there are 22 of 30 MLB teams within 4 games of .500. All of those teams are within at least 4 games of a postseason slot. There are only 8 teams right now that are basically "out of it" at the end of May- Seattle, Detroit, Toronto, Kansas City, Washington, San Francisco, and Miami. There are 7 *excellent* teams in Houston, New York, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, the Cubs, the Dodgers, and Philadelphia. (And I think Boston and Milwaukee have underperformed at this point, and could be added to that list.)


On May 30, 1970- There was only 1 team in the AL that were less than 7 games out of first by the end of May. The Orioles and Twins had basically run away and hid, and would meet in the ALCS.

In the NL West, Cincinnati was already 20 games over .500- the Braves and Dodgers were both decent, but were already 6 and 7 games back. They would win the NL Pennant easily.

The NL East was the only competitive division, and at that point 5 of the 6 teams in the division were under .500.


On May 30, 1980- the American League was a hodgepodge of mediocrity. There were *2* teams that were more than 3 games above .500. The A's would finish in 2nd place in the AL West at 83-79, 14 games out. The National League was a little better.


On May 30, 1990- only 6 of 28 teams were better than 3 games over .500. 14 teams were already more than 6 games out of a postseason slot.


You can't have it both ways. There can't be a bunch of excellent teams AND a bunch of above average teams. There are exactly 1,215 wins to go around in an MLB season. If you want several really good teams, who rack up 95+ wins, then you are going to have several really bad teams who are losing 95+ games. If you want competitive balance, with 20 teams within striking distance of first place (and not a wild card slot), then that means that means no one can go out and be 30 games over- everyone needs to be within a few games of .500, and by definition you don't have any excellent teams.

There is not an issue with the competitive balance in baseball, and the math isn't any different this year than it has been for any of the previous 120+ seasons. There's a few really good teams, a few really bad teams, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.


This is a really solid post.



I think the main difference is that - in the free agency area, anyway - there used to be teams that were awful but were ostensibly "trying" because they had rosters with several over-the-hill, washed-up veterans who were "trying" to catch lightning in a bottle and compete with the stronger teams.


Now, GMs know when they have a talent deficiency, and so rather than "trying" and failing utterly and expensively, they are choosing to dump those veterans - or not sign them in the first place - and compile prospects and high draft picks in order to build a young roster whose projected peaks all align.


Here's the difference for me. I'd rather watch young players with at least potential high upside suck and struggle, than old, broken down, expensive veterans suck and struggle.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 02:42 PM
You have made similar statements several times in the past few weeks about how there are too many bad teams and not enough teams are trying to win, and it is making baseball boring.

Right now in there are 22 of 30 MLB teams within 4 games of .500. All of those teams are within at least 4 games of a postseason slot. There are only 8 teams right now that are basically "out of it" at the end of May- Seattle, Detroit, Toronto, Kansas City, Washington, San Francisco, and Miami. There are 7 *excellent* teams in Houston, New York, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, the Cubs, the Dodgers, and Philadelphia. (And I think Boston and Milwaukee have underperformed at this point, and could be added to that list.)


On May 30, 1970- There was only 1 team in the AL that were less than 7 games out of first by the end of May. The Orioles and Twins had basically run away and hid, and would meet in the ALCS.

In the NL West, Cincinnati was already 20 games over .500- the Braves and Dodgers were both decent, but were already 6 and 7 games back. They would win the NL Pennant easily.

The NL East was the only competitive division, and at that point 5 of the 6 teams in the division were under .500.


On May 30, 1980- the American League was a hodgepodge of mediocrity. There were *2* teams that were more than 3 games above .500. The A's would finish in 2nd place in the AL West at 83-79, 14 games out. The National League was a little better.


On May 30, 1990- only 6 of 28 teams were better than 3 games over .500. 14 teams were already more than 6 games out of a postseason slot.


You can't have it both ways. There can't be a bunch of excellent teams AND a bunch of above average teams. There are exactly 1,215 wins to go around in an MLB season. If you want several really good teams, who rack up 95+ wins, then you are going to have several really bad teams who are losing 95+ games. If you want competitive balance, with 20 teams within striking distance of first place (and not a wild card slot), then that means that means no one can go out and be 30 games over- everyone needs to be within a few games of .500, and by definition you don't have any excellent teams.

There is not an issue with the competitive balance in baseball, and the math isn't any different this year than it has been for any of the previous 120+ seasons. There's a few really good teams, a few really bad teams, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

Excellent post, but your math is bad. There are 2430 wins to go around. Pure equality would be 30 teams each with 81 wins.

lpneck
05-30-2019, 02:44 PM
That 1215 number is off by half, if all 30 teams wound up at .500 with 81 wins each that comes out to 2430.

You're right. I don't know why I divided it by 2.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 02:45 PM
Try this: Four seam fastballs rise. Changeups sink. The pitch we're talking about rose. (Watch it again) It couldn't have been a changeup because no kind of changeup rises. When Sparkman said it was a changeup he had to be lying. Now that we know he was lying, we are right in assuming that it was a pitch thrown 86 MPH at Tim's head and the changeup story was an alibi. Lucky for Tim that Sparkman didn't throw it full speed or he would not have been able to get his head out of the way.

Once the lie has been established, we know it was intentional.

No pitch "rises" unless it is thrown upward. Gravity doesn't allow that to happen. It well could have been a changeup that slipped, but whether intentional or not, is moot. Sparkman got tossed. Tim scored a run after getting hit and later drove in the winner.

TDog
05-30-2019, 04:10 PM
You have made similar statements several times in the past few weeks about how there are too many bad teams and not enough teams are trying to win, and it is making baseball boring.

Right now in there are 22 of 30 MLB teams within 4 games of .500. All of those teams are within at least 4 games of a postseason slot. There are only 8 teams right now that are basically "out of it" at the end of May- Seattle, Detroit, Toronto, Kansas City, Washington, San Francisco, and Miami. There are 7 *excellent* teams in Houston, New York, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, the Cubs, the Dodgers, and Philadelphia. (And I think Boston and Milwaukee have underperformed at this point, and could be added to that list.)


On May 30, 1970- There was only 1 team in the AL that were less than 7 games out of first by the end of May. The Orioles and Twins had basically run away and hid, and would meet in the ALCS.

In the NL West, Cincinnati was already 20 games over .500- the Braves and Dodgers were both decent, but were already 6 and 7 games back. They would win the NL Pennant easily.

The NL East was the only competitive division, and at that point 5 of the 6 teams in the division were under .500.


On May 30, 1980- the American League was a hodgepodge of mediocrity. There were *2* teams that were more than 3 games above .500. The A's would finish in 2nd place in the AL West at 83-79, 14 games out. The National League was a little better.


On May 30, 1990- only 6 of 28 teams were better than 3 games over .500. 14 teams were already more than 6 games out of a postseason slot.


You can't have it both ways. There can't be a bunch of excellent teams AND a bunch of above average teams. There are exactly 2,430 wins to go around in an MLB season. If you want several really good teams, who rack up 95+ wins, then you are going to have several really bad teams who are losing 95+ games. If you want competitive balance, with 20 teams within striking distance of first place (and not a wild card slot), then that means that means no one can go out and be 30 games over- everyone needs to be within a few games of .500, and by definition you don't have any excellent teams.

There is not an issue with the competitive balance in baseball, and the math isn't any different this year than it has been for any of the previous 120+ seasons. There's a few really good teams, a few really bad teams, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

The fact that the White Sox are so close to .500 with a bad starting rotation, a bad bullpen and an overall weak offense rather proves my point. Actually, going into the Sunday doubleheader on May 17, 1970, the White Sox were only two games below .500. That team ended up with the most losses in franchise history.

There are teams that are obviously not trying to win. I believe the White Sox are one of them. The Royals and Tigers are behind them, and may well be for the season. Many believe the Indians will trade a starting pitcher without getting major league talent in return.

As long as there is hype for a trading deadline at the end of July where the haves raid the have-nots for talent, the standings at the end of May are irrelevant. Even in this forum, the talk isn't about how the White Sox have a chance at the wild card (and I'm not suggesting they do). It's about what sort of prospects they could get for their closer and primary catcher, even their first baseman.

The White Sox have been trading for prospects for years and they are only competing (that is, they aren't at the bottom in their division) because they are playing teams that aren't very good, just as they aren't very good. Is Covey a starter on a very good team? Look at how badly the Sox have been beaten up by the Twins and Red Sox this year.

It isn't a question of parity, everyone being able to compete with anyone and getting great competition out of it. It's about bad teams not looking so bad in the standings because they are playing teams that are worse. Too much of the American League especially is more concerned with what they can get at the trading deadline. The wild-card play-in round simply gives a bad team a shot at making the postseason.

Stop the madness of the trading deadline, or at least move it to Memorial Day and focus on completing, not who you can draft next June or what prospect you can wrestle from a contender in July.

Grzegorz
05-30-2019, 04:14 PM
I doubt Sparkman's fastball was rising. To do so would mean to apply out of this world backspin at eighty-six MPH.

slavko
05-30-2019, 09:36 PM
No pitch "rises" unless it is thrown upward. Gravity doesn't allow that to happen. It well could have been a changeup that slipped, but whether intentional or not, is moot. Sparkman got tossed. Tim scored a run after getting hit and later drove in the winner.

Underspin can overcome gravity FOR A TIME. Yes the ball will hit the ground eventually, duh. You are wrong, sez I.

voodoochile
05-30-2019, 10:07 PM
Underspin can overcome gravity FOR A TIME. Yes the ball will hit the ground eventually, duh. You are wrong, sez I.

You know how much spin you have to put on a baseball to do that? I don't think humans are capable of throwing a ball with that much under spin. Best they could do is reduce the drop and that's typically what people mean when they talk about a rising fastball. Certainly would be damned hard to do at 86 MPH that's for sure. All the guys with "rising" fastballs historically have thrown the ball a LOT harder and again, it's not rising because rising from the pitchers release point which is typically above the batter's head would mean a ball would end up 7 feet off the ground when it crossed home plate.

TDog
05-30-2019, 11:13 PM
You know how much spin you have to put on a baseball to do that? I don't think humans are capable of throwing a ball with that much under spin. Best they could do is reduce the drop and that's typically what people mean when they talk about a rising fastball. Certainly would be damned hard to do at 86 MPH that's for sure. All the guys with "rising" fastballs historically have thrown the ball a LOT harder and again, it's not rising because rising from the pitchers release point which is typically above the batter's head would mean a ball would end up 7 feet off the ground when it crossed home plate.


I have read and been told that the rising of of rising fastball is an illusion related to a pitch's angle of attack from the mound, that you can't get a fastball to actually rise, but that it could appear to be rising from a hitter's perspective.

But people used to believe the curve in a curveball was an optical illusion, which it is not. I know Robert Adair's "The Physics of Baseball" covers curveballs. I don't recall if I read any rising-fastball debunking there.