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View Full Version : do we dare look at 2003?


BuehrleACE56
09-15-2002, 10:02 PM
Rotation:
Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Biddle
Ritchie

Bullpen:
Ginter
Porzio
Osuna
Glover
Foulke
Marte

Jimenez 2B
Valentin SS
Lee DH
Maggs RF
Konerko 1B
Borchard LF
Crede 3B
Rowand CF
Olivio C

Bench:
Harris
Graffy

I am all for invoking Thomas' diminished skills clause and letting him walk or resign for less money. We need to go young and sticking with Thomas will just mean less playing time for someone. Plus we weeded out Royce, now Thomas is the only whiner left. He's not nearly as bad, but his attitude sucks. I am like 3 roster spots short so we need maybe another couple bullpen guys or and a 4th outfielder. Dump Liefer. Given more playing time, he hasn't shown anything. We need to come out with a set lineup and set positions for the players, and specific roles for the pitchers. No more tinkering or "tryouts" or whatever. Use ST to get set and stick with it. I think a crappy start will be the end for Manuel. We can only hope........

RedPinStripes
09-15-2002, 10:08 PM
Rauch will be in there, and i still don't beoieve the "diminished skills clause" exists.

idseer
09-15-2002, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
I think a crappy start will be the end for Manuel. We can only hope........

IF this were true, then i would seriously hope for a crappy start.

nut_stock
09-15-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
and i still don't beoieve the "diminished skills clause" exists.


I believe it exists but I don't believe it will be enacted this offseason.

WinningUgly!
09-15-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by idseer
IF this were true, then i would seriously hope for a crappy start.

So your dislike for Manuel is greater than your love for the team? I'm not a huge Jerry Manuel fan, but there's no way in hell I could lower myself to rooting against the Sox.

RedPinStripes
09-16-2002, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by nut_stock
I believe it exists but I don't believe it will be enacted this offseason.

Frank and Jerry talked about something in st of 2001 and i think that was it. I'll bet we never hear frank or jr talk about it either. i would believe that only 4 people really saw that deal. Frank JR, and franks' 2 dead agents.

bc2k
09-16-2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
Rotation:
Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Biddle
Ritchie

Bullpen:
Ginter
Porzio
Osuna
Glover
Foulke
Marte

Jimenez 2B
Valentin SS
Lee DH
Maggs RF
Konerko 1B
Borchard LF
Crede 3B
Rowand CF
Olivio C

Bench:
Harris
Graffy



That roster is pretty much exactly what I had in mind for 2003. Maybe the only difference is I'm hoping Rauch is good enough to start. And I'd rather have Harris playing everyday in AAA. And because Cooper lets his pitchers throw more than 80 pitches, we won't need a twelfth pitcher. But if Manuel wants another pawn to tinker with, Sean Lowe or Bill Simas are good options.

kermittheefrog
09-16-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
But if Manuel wants another pawn to tinker with, Sean Lowe or Bill Simas are good options.

HE IS SO A TROLL

idseer
09-16-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
So your dislike for Manuel is greater than your love for the team? I'm not a huge Jerry Manuel fan, but there's no way in hell I could lower myself to rooting against the Sox.

a very twisted and unfair way to characterize what i said, ugly.
sometimes you need the pain of surgery to recover from an illness. sometimes you need to discipline a child to make them grow straight. sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

... are you getting any of this?

hold2dibber
09-16-2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by idseer
a very twisted and unfair way to characterize what i said, ugly.
sometimes you need the pain of surgery to recover from an illness. sometimes you need to discipline a child to make them grow straight. sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

... are you getting any of this?

But wouldn't you rather recover from the illness without surgery? I mean, as much as Manuel has driven me nuts this year, whatever he did in 2000 worked like a charm. I would much rather he gets off to a great start and we pull a 2000 next year than to hope he fails so he'll get axed and we get treated to KW's choice for a manager (Gary Pettis? Gary Ward? Daryl Boston? Terry Bevington II?)

Iwritecode
09-16-2002, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
I am like 3 roster spots short so we need maybe another couple bullpen guys or and a 4th outfielder.

How about another catcher?

Kilroy
09-16-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
I am all for invoking Thomas' diminished skills clause and letting him walk or resign for less money.

That's great that you're all for the clause being invoked, but Thomas will be on the Sox next year, invoked or not, so get used to the idea...

DrCrawdad
09-16-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
...But if Manuel wants another pawn to tinker with, Sean Lowe or Bill Simas are good options.

Sean Lowe a White Sox pitcher in 2003? That ain't gonna happen.

Procol Harum
09-16-2002, 11:39 AM
Our prospects in 2003 hardly fill me with anticipation at this juncture--2001 and 2002 have been too much of a kick in the seat of the britches. Personally, I'm looking forward to Thanksgiving and Christmas.... :)

RKMeibalane
09-16-2002, 12:22 PM
I've said this numerous times, but I feel compelled to say it again. Thomas should remain with the White Sox next season. He has hit the ball well over the past few weeks. This is the best stretch he's put together this season. It is not out of the realm of possibilities that he has figured some things out with his swing, and is now on his way back. If that is the case, I would hate to see him posting his usual numbers with another team.

On the other hand, if his recent success is just an abberration, then the Sox don't have to play him as much next season. Having said that, I don't think Carlos Lee is the answer at DH. He will never be as productive as Frank has been. Even this season, Frank has better numbers in every category execpt batting average. What does that tell you?

I wouldn't mind seeing Borchard DH occasionally, but I think his arm is too good to waste. Rowand is a fourth outfield at best. He should not be the regular in center field next year. I think an outfield of Lee, Borchard, and Ordonez will be okay. Lee is terrible defensively, but the other two should help make up for his shortcomings.

Willie Harris is the Choice now. He has officially replaced Royce Clayton as Jerry Manuel's adopted son. The only difference between the two is that Harris prefers chocolate ice cream, instead of vanilla with Butterfinger chunks, which was a Clayton favorite.

longshot7
09-16-2002, 12:59 PM
not sure yet about Olivo, but I still don't think Borchard is ready for the bigs yet. Let him get another year at AAA a la Crede.

and KW better pick up some kind of pitching in the offseason - look at what Anaheim has done picking up two middle-of-the-rotation guys last offseason.

RichH55
09-16-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
not sure yet about Olivo, but I still don't think Borchard is ready for the bigs yet. Let him get another year at AAA a la Crede.

and KW better pick up some kind of pitching in the offseason - look at what Anaheim has done picking up two middle-of-the-rotation guys last offseason.


Letting him get another year of Triple A ala Crede is a bad example to me....Crede didnt need that extra year and we hurt the team by keeping Royce around and not letting joe play....I say let LTP earn the job, but give him a chance, dont make the minors automatic. I think Crede might wind up having a career start like Wade Boggs...promising 3B,kept down in the minors for at least a year too long

RKMeibalane
09-16-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
and KW better pick up some kind of pitching in the offseason - look at what Anaheim has done picking up two middle-of-the-rotation guys last offseason.

That's asking a lot of Ken Williams. The man has no clue what he's doing. What makes you think he is capable of finding pitchers who can put the Sox over the top?

RichH55
09-16-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That's asking a lot of Ken Williams. The man has no clue what he's doing. What makes you think he is capable of finding pitchers who can put the Sox over the top?


Hope? I dont know......but not every aquistion can flame out to a Clayton/Ritchie degree..

doublem23
09-16-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Sean Lowe a White Sox pitcher in 2003? That ain't gonna happen.

:KW
For once my irrationality pays off!

Seriously though, Sean Lowe? What?

doublem23
09-16-2002, 02:45 PM
OK, if I were running the show for the 2003 White Sox, right now here's the team I trot on the field Opening Day 2003. This is, of course, assuming I can only drop players from the current roster. Being the White Sox, I'm not allowed to pick up any decent players.

STARTING ROTATION
1) Mark Buehrle
2) Jon Garland
3) Dan Wright
4) Todd Ritchie :whiner:
5) Rocky Biddle

SEVEN MAN BULLPEN
Keith Foulke (Yes, that 1.00 ERA in the 2nd half of the season ISN'T fluke)
Damaso Marte
Jon Rauch
Kelly Wunsch
Antonio Osuna
Gary Glover

STARTING LINEUP
C - Mark Johnson
1B - Paul Konerko
2B - Willie Harris
3B - Joe Crede
SS - D'Angelo Jiminez
LF - Magglio Ordonez
CF - Aaron Rowand :whiner:
RF - Joe Borchard
DH - Frank Thomas (heh heh... American League... duh!)

BENCH
C - Miguel Olivio (platoons with MJ)
IF - Jose Valentin
IF - Tony Graffanino
OF - Jeff Liefer :whiner:
OF - :?: If someone in this organization was halfway competent, they'd bring in a decent center fielder so Rowand could be moved to the 4th OF spot... WHERE HE SHOULD BE!

hold2dibber
09-16-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
OK, if I were running the show for the 2003 White Sox, right now here's the team I trot on the field Opening Day 2003. This is, of course, assuming I can only drop players from the current roster. Being the White Sox, I'm not allowed to pick up any decent players.

STARTING ROTATION
1) Mark Buehrle
2) Jon Garland
3) Dan Wright
4) Todd Ritchie :whiner:
5) Rocky Biddle

SEVEN MAN BULLPEN
Keith Foulke (Yes, that 1.00 ERA in the 2nd half of the season ISN'T fluke)
Damaso Marte
Jon Rauch
Kelly Wunsch
Antonio Osuna
Gary Glover
Almonte :?: / Porzio :?: / Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? :?:

STARTING LINEUP
C - Mark Johnson
1B - Paul Konerko
2B - Willie Harris
3B - Joe Crede
SS - D'Angelo Jiminez
LF - Magglio Ordonez
CF - Aaron Rowand :whiner:
RF - Joe Borchard

BENCH
C - Miguel Olivio (platoons with MJ)
IF - Jose Valentin
IF - Tony Graffanino
OF - Jeff Liefer :whiner:
OF - :?: If someone in this organization was halfway competent, they'd bring in a decent center fielder so Rowand could be moved to the 4th OF spot... WHERE HE SHOULD BE!

They'd be lucky to win 75 games!

I'd rather have Rauch in AAA pitching every fifth day and leave Ginter here in the bullpen. I also think Porzio is a decent guy to have around. I think Borchard needs at least another 1/2 season in AAA, as well. I don't think Wee Willie is ready to be an everyday player yet, either. At D'Ang at SS makes me nervous. You don't say who you'd like at DH - I assume you're either dumping Big Frank or CLee and leaving the other to DH. Liefer needs to go - I think his complaining is only going to get worse, and he sure as heck isn't an everyday player here.

I think this team can compete for a division title next year if they add another good pitcher and a legitimate major league CF, and mix in the veterans with at 3B, D'Ang at 2B and possibly Olivo at C (depending on how he does the rest of this year and in ST). Keep Frank and deal Lee only if he (combined with a minor league "B" prospect, perhaps) can bring the Sox their elusive #2 pitcher. This would allow them to compete next year while developing some of their most promising prospects at the same time.

FarmerAndy
09-16-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
At D'Ang at SS makes me nervous.

D'Ang at 2B and possibly Olivo at C (depending on how he does the rest of this year and in ST).

I don't think that Jimenez looks bad at SS. Either way, he wouldn't make me any more nervous than Valentin on the field.

I think that if Jimenez continues his current level of play in ST he should be our SS. He is a natural shortstop, and right now he looks like the our only canidate at the position after 2003. So I'd hate to see him play 2B in 2003, get settled in, and then have to move to SS in 2004.

Second base is it's own problem. If Jimenez looks like the best SS option, don't move him to 2nd just becuase Willie ain't hitting yet.

FarmerAndy
09-16-2002, 04:07 PM
In the wishful thinking department......

Jeff Kent is a free agent. I know he's a jerk, but the guy can play.

Crede, Jimenez, Kent, Konerko on the infield. If only the White Sox spent money....

kermittheefrog
09-16-2002, 04:37 PM
Okay here's how it would look if I were running the show buds:

Rotation
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Ritchie

Pen
Marte
Osuna
Rauch
Porzio
Ginter
Glover

Lineup
C- Johnson/Olivo
1B- Konerko
2B- Jimenez
3B- Crede
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
CF- Borchard
RF- Ordonez
DH- Thomas

Best offensive options. Possibly the best defensive also with the exception of Borchard in center.

Randar68
09-16-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Okay here's how it would look if I were running the show buds:

Rotation
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Ritchie


I'm still not sure what you see in Foulke to make him anything other than Gary Glover as a starter. Put Foulke back in the pen and Big Jon as a starter and you have something there though.

Iguana775
09-16-2002, 04:53 PM
well, here is my rotation if i had my way.....

schilling
johnson
zeto
burly
mulder

:D:

hold2dibber
09-16-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Okay here's how it would look if I were running the show buds:

Rotation
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Ritchie

Pen
Marte
Osuna
Rauch
Porzio
Ginter
Glover

Lineup
C- Johnson/Olivo
1B- Konerko
2B- Jimenez
3B- Crede
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
CF- Borchard
RF- Ordonez
DH- Thomas

Best offensive options. Possibly the best defensive also with the exception of Borchard in center.

I agree on the lineup, with the exception that I think I'd give LTP (or Bazooka, if you prefer) a few more months in AAA. I agree with the rotation except I'm not sold on Foulke as a starter. I would probably have him in the pen and Biddle (did you leave him out on purpose or oversight?) in the rotation. In the pen, I think I'd leave Rauch in AAA for a bit longer and give Almonte a shot in the pen.

OEO Magglio
09-16-2002, 05:37 PM
I think to make the 2003 a succesful season we are going to have to pick up a descent pitcher in the offseason or get a pitcher in a trade who can actually contribute, but then again KW is our GM. The sox should pick up a descent pitcher like maybe Valdes, that would improve our staff a lot.

WhiteSox = Life
09-16-2002, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
well, here is my rotation if i had my way.....

schilling
johnson
zeto
burly
mulder

:D:

HEY! Why stop there? How about:

Ed Walsh
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Mordecai Brown

I feel kind of like Mr. Burns telling Mr. Smithers his Power Plant starting line-up in the softball episode. :D:

http://smithers.acm.uiuc.edu/smithers.gif
"Uh, sir, you're starting right-fielder has been dead for 126 years."

idseer
09-16-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
But wouldn't you rather recover from the illness without surgery? I mean, as much as Manuel has driven me nuts this year, whatever he did in 2000 worked like a charm. I would much rather he gets off to a great start and we pull a 2000 next year than to hope he fails so he'll get axed and we get treated to KW's choice for a manager (Gary Pettis? Gary Ward? Daryl Boston? Terry Bevington II?)


frankly ... no! you seem to be suggesting manuel might get smart. he may suddenly figure out how to manage. you have a lot more faith than i do.

what jm did during '00 was, imo, nothing! it bugs me people still credit jm for that great 1st half. he's clearly shown EVER SINCE ... that he can't manage. isn't it more reasonable to assume it was a fluke half? he had nothing to do with that.

i would rather take the chance of dumping his butt and hoping whoever comes in will be an improvement. he CAN'T be any worse. and who knows? ... maybe jr wouldn't approve williams bringing in another friend/loser!

WinningUgly!
09-16-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
a very twisted and unfair way to characterize what i said, ugly.
sometimes you need the pain of surgery to recover from an illness. sometimes you need to discipline a child to make them grow straight. sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

... are you getting any of this?

Yeah, I'm a few steps slow, but I get it. I was just busting your chops.

spaz
09-16-2002, 11:33 PM
well he's how I see the roster shaping up

starters
burele
garland
wright
raunch
offseason/trade/pickup or richie(yes he might still be here)

pen
marte
ginter
glover
biddle
prizo
almonte
diaz(I think he will surpise people in spring training!)

everyday players
1b paul k
2b jimeraz
ss jose
3b crede
lf borchard
cf rowand
rf mags
dh thomas
c mark
bench
hollywood
liefer
olivlo

I think lee and foulke will be traded in the offseason!, hence why I don't list them, and uncle jerry will not invoke clause next year either.

RichH55
09-18-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by spaz
well he's how I see the roster shaping up

starters
burele
garland
wright
raunch
offseason/trade/pickup or richie(yes he might still be here)

pen
marte
ginter
glover
biddle
prizo
almonte
diaz(I think he will surpise people in spring training!)

everyday players
1b paul k
2b jimeraz
ss jose
3b crede
lf borchard
cf rowand
rf mags
dh thomas
c mark
bench
hollywood
liefer
olivlo

I think lee and foulke will be traded in the offseason!, hence why I don't list them, and uncle jerry will not invoke clause next year either.


Well dealing Foulke and Lee would net someone in trade, so we wouldnt be quite as bad off as this list might suggest.....we will just have to see how it plays out....Getting Moyer would be a coup to me....a veteran and he can still play

hold2dibber
09-18-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well dealing Foulke and Lee would net someone in trade, so we wouldnt be quite as bad off as this list might suggest.....we will just have to see how it plays out....Getting Moyer would be a coup to me....a veteran and he can still play

As to Moyer, as always it would come down to $. He's so ancient I for one would be pretty hesitant to give him more than a 2 year deal and pretty hesitant to offer him really big bucks; but someone like the D-Backs, Yankmees or Seattle will probably give more. Our best hope is a "tier 2" type FA pitcher who has a break out year, like Byrd did for KC this year.

RichH55
09-18-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
As to Moyer, as always it would come down to $. He's so ancient I for one would be pretty hesitant to give him more than a 2 year deal and pretty hesitant to offer him really big bucks; but someone like the D-Backs, Yankmees or Seattle will probably give more. Our best hope is a "tier 2" type FA pitcher who has a break out year, like Byrd did for KC this year.

Well that hope doesnt bode well, but a guy like Moyer is a veteran, which i know is usually very overrated, but with this young pitching staff, and the fact that he can still play(very important), and the fact that we are going with a very young team overall most likely, I think the pros add up with Moyer

sox1970
09-23-2002, 02:46 PM
2003 Opening Day Roster
Jimenez-2B
Valentin-SS
Thomas-DH
Ordonez-RF
Konerko-1B
Lee-LF
Crede-3B
Rowand-CF
Olivo-C

Johnson-C
Liefer-OF
Graffanino-IF
Harris-2B/CF

Rotation-
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Rauch

Bullpen-
Glover
Biddle
Porzio
Wunsch
Almonte
Osuna
Marte