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RichH55
09-09-2002, 11:03 PM
Here is my question..... I have always been under the belief that LF is not that important defensively, CF has always been a different story. However, the choice is not Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones vs Jack Cust here. So assuming LTP shows enough with the bat to stick here next spring, how much worse than Rowand is he in CF?(This assumes Franks stays) I for one honestly dont think LTP is that much of a downgrade from Rowand defensively in CF, and I would be happy to go into the season with a Lee-LTP-Mags OF(unless we could actually get a solid pitcher for Lee, which im less than optimistic about).........But not everyone agrees with me(as usual), so I'm curious to hear solid argumentation to maybe make me reassess my position....Thanks

Daver
09-09-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Here is my question..... I have always been under the belief that LF is not that important defensively, CF has always been a different story. However, the choice is not Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones vs Jack Cust here. So assuming LTP shows enough with the bat to stick here next spring, how much worse than Rowand is he in CF?(This assumes Franks stays) I for one honestly dont think LTP is that much of a downgrade from Rowand defensively in CF, and I would be happy to go into the season with a Lee-LTP-Mags OF(unless we could actually get a solid pitcher for Lee, which im less than optimistic about).........But not everyone agrees with me(as usual), so I'm curious to hear solid argumentation to maybe make me reassess my position....Thanks

Rowand v Ltp is a tossup as far as skills go, Borchard will improve,where Rowand may be where he is at.Rowand is a fourth outfeilder on a good team at best.I can live with Lee in left if his plate disclipline continues to improve.

RichH55
09-10-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by daver
Rowand v Ltp is a tossup as far as skills go, Borchard will improve,where Rowand may be where he is at.Rowand is a fourth outfeilder on a good team at best.I can live with Lee in left if his plate disclipline continues to improve.

Well we still have a year to find out on Carlos....I'm still thinking he will come around.........a Lee, Borchard, Mags OF gives you some leeway in other spots. At the end of the day we still need more pitching(who doesnt?)

Randar68
09-10-2002, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Here is my question..... I have always been under the belief that LF is not that important defensively, CF has always been a different story. However, the choice is not Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones vs Jack Cust here. So assuming LTP shows enough with the bat to stick here next spring, how much worse than Rowand is he in CF?(This assumes Franks stays) I for one honestly dont think LTP is that much of a downgrade from Rowand defensively in CF, and I would be happy to go into the season with a Lee-LTP-Mags OF(unless we could actually get a solid pitcher for Lee, which im less than optimistic about).........But not everyone agrees with me(as usual), so I'm curious to hear solid argumentation to maybe make me reassess my position....Thanks

Let me see. LTP has a MUCH better arm and has about equal range and speed as Rowand. His first step is a little slower due to his size. With all this, LTP is only in his 2nd year as a CF'er, so he will only improve. I would much rather see a Lee, LTP, Maggs OF with Frank remaining at DH.

Then your only big question marks are middle infield (where we now have options, for better or worse), C, and 2-5 in the rotation... We'll see where we are next spring training after FA and such, but I'm not holding my breath...

Lip Man 1
09-10-2002, 10:40 AM
This may be a hint of where things are heading. This is from the Sun Times...

"Groomed as a center fielder, the Sox aren't looking for the switch-hitter out of Stanford to give Aaron Rowand a run for his money next season. They see Borchard somewhere else on the field.

"From the reports, I don't really see Joe as a center fielder "--Jerry Manuel (Manager Gandhi)

That means either it's goodbye and farewell to Frank Thomas or Carlos "El Stupido" Lee if the Sox intend to have Borchard on the team next year.

Lip

Randar68
09-10-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This may be a hint of where things are heading. This is from the Sun Times...

"Groomed as a center fielder, the Sox aren't looking for the switch-hitter out of Stanford to give Aaron Rowand a run for his money next season. They see Borchard somewhere else on the field.

"From the reports, I don't really see Joe as a center fielder "--Jerry Manuel (Manager Gandhi)

That means either it's goodbye and farewell to Frank Thomas or Carlos "El Stupido" Lee if the Sox intend to have Borchard on the team next year.

Lip

And we all know Jerry to be good to his word...




BLA!

Lip Man 1
09-10-2002, 10:54 AM
True and the other variable is how much Kenny Williams wants Bouchard on the club next season.

Ultimately if he says "left field" that's probably where it's going to be.

Lip

Randar68
09-10-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
True and the other variable is how much Kenny Williams wants Bouchard on the club next season.

Ultimately if he says "left field" that's probably where it's going to be.

Lip


Can people at least start writing his name properly? BoRchard. He's not some distant relative of the Water Boy. If ya can't figure it out, use LTP!

Iguana775
09-10-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Can people at least start writing his name properly? BoRchard. He's not some distant relative of the Water Boy. If ya can't figure it out, use LTP!

thanks, randar...now i dont have to say anything. :D:

WinningUgly!
09-10-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Can people at least start writing his name properly? BoRchard. He's not some distant relative of the Water Boy. If ya can't figure it out, use LTP!
I did hear somewhere that he rides his lawnmower to the ballpark every day.:D:

MarkEdward
09-10-2002, 03:30 PM
If we give up either Thomas or Lee to get Rowand more playing time, I will be sick.

RichH55
09-10-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
If we give up either Thomas or Lee to get Rowand more playing time, I will be sick.


Well the sick thing might be pushing it, trading either of these guys for the sake of Rowand is ridiculous...now if we could actually get good value in the form of a good(not great) pitcher under 30, we would have to look at it. Liefer could put up good numbers with the at bats(at least good enough to justify getting help with the staff)....though last year the rumor was Rowand could net Lidle...you never know what someones true value is out there

OfficerKarkovice
09-10-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Liefer could put up good numbers with the at bats(at least good enough to justify getting help with the staff)

eehhhhh...please let's just hope we don't have to find out

RichH55
09-10-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


That means either it's goodbye and farewell to Frank Thomas or Carlos "El Stupido" Lee if the Sox intend to have Borchard on the team next year.

Lip


Well if calling Lee "El Stupido" isn't the most rationale, coherent, and well researched argument I've ever seen on these boards than I'll be in shock. At least put some effort into your arguments....this is like Gene Hackman in The Replacements, you are just phoning it in......

RichH55
09-10-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
eehhhhh...please let's just hope we don't have to find out



If it meant getting a true number 2 starter?

Daver
09-10-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If it meant getting a true number 2 starter?

If I never see Jeff Liefer again it would be to soon.

OfficerKarkovice
09-10-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by daver
If I never see Jeff Liefer again it would be to soon.

My thoughts exactly.

hold2dibber
09-10-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well if calling Lee "El Stupido" isn't the most rationale, coherent, and well researched argument I've ever seen on these boards than I'll be in shock. At least put some effort into your arguments....this is like Gene Hackman in The Replacements, you are just phoning it in......

I don't know if Lee is stupid or lazy (Coach: "Son, are you ignorent or apathetic?" Player: "I don't know and I don't care."), but I've seen ample evidence that he is one or the other (i.e., missed cut off men, bone headed stolen base attempts, getting picked off of bases at inoportune times, etc.). That said, I still think he may turn out to be a great hitter - his improved plate discipline over the last few months is very promising.

guillen4life13
09-10-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't know if Lee is stupid or lazy (Coach: "Son, are you ignorent or apathetic?" Player: "I don't know and I don't care."), but I've seen ample evidence that he is one or the other (i.e., missed cut off men, bone headed stolen base attempts, getting picked off of bases at inoportune times, etc.). That said, I still think he may turn out to be a great hitter - his improved plate discipline over the last few months is very promising.

he used to be one of the guys least likely to walk... now he's probably got the best k/bb ratio since the break. he's just been getting on base so much... which is what we need out of a #3 hitter. that's why i think that next year's lineup should be as follows (with joey borchard in center).

2B D'Angelo/Wee Willie
SS Manos
LF b
RF Maggs
1B Paulie
DH Hurt
3B Joe C
CF LTP
C PLAYER TO BE NAMED


Bench:
2B/CF Wee Willie/D'Angelo
OF Crash
C Josh Paul
UT Jeff Liefer

Rotation:

Burly-Mon
Master Garland
The Wright Stuff
The Giant
Rockmeister

Bullpen:

Foulker
Damaso
Antonio
The Glove
Edwin Almonte
Felix Rodriguez
Matt Ginter


how's about that?

kermittheefrog
09-10-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
he used to be one of the guys least likely to walk... now he's probably got the best k/bb ratio since the break. he's just been getting on base so much... which is what we need out of a #3 hitter. that's why i think that next year's lineup should be as follows (with joey borchard in center).

2B D'Angelo/Wee Willie
SS Manos
LF b
RF Maggs
1B Paulie
DH Hurt
3B Joe C
CF LTP
C PLAYER TO BE NAMED


Bench:
2B/CF Wee Willie/D'Angelo
OF Crash
C Josh Paul
UT Jeff Liefer

Rotation:

Burly-Mon
Master Garland
The Wright Stuff
The Giant
Rockmeister

Bullpen:

Foulker
Damaso
Antonio
The Glove
Edwin Almonte
Felix Rodriguez
Matt Ginter


how's about that?

Foulke in the rotation! Foulke in the rotation! Other than that, I think you've got a pretty good idea of what the team should (but probably won't) look like.

Daver
09-10-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Foulke in the rotation! Foulke in the rotation! Other than that, I think you've got a pretty good idea of what the team should (but probably won't) look like.

I have to disagree with you on this one Kermit.....

Jerry_Manuel
09-10-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Foulke in the rotation! Foulke in the rotation! Other than that, I think you've got a pretty good idea of what the team should (but probably won't) look like.

If he joins the rotation and does well, he'll want a big check from the Sox, and they'll tell him to get lost.

guillen4life13
09-10-2002, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Foulke in the rotation! Foulke in the rotation! Other than that, I think you've got a pretty good idea of what the team should (but probably won't) look like.
thanks, but I would have to say that foulke is the closer, with Glover and Marte as setup men. even if antonio osuna has 8 wins... whenever he goes on the mound, I get worried.


Originally posted by daver


I have to disagree with you on this one Kermit.....
disagree on me having a good idea, or on foulke starting?

Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


If he joins the rotation and does well, he'll want a big check from the Sox, and they'll tell him to get lost.

yeah. that's another reason he shouldn't start.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2002, 11:23 PM
2B D'Angelo/Wee Willie
SS Manos
LF b
RF Maggs
1B Paulie
DH Hurt
3B Joe C
CF LTP
C PLAYER TO BE NAMED


Bench:
2B/CF Wee Willie/D'Angelo
OF Crash
C Josh Paul
UT Jeff Liefer

Rotation:
Previously posted:

Burly-Mon
Master Garland
The Wright Stuff
The Giant
Rockmeister

Bullpen:

Foulker
Damaso
Antonio
The Glove
Edwin Almonte
Felix Rodriguez
Matt Ginter


how's about that?

Looks like another 2nd or 3rd place finish with about 83 wins to me! LOL

Seriously it has some potential but that's a word that Sox fans have heard for a veeerrryyy long time... They still need quality starters, a solid catcher, and maybe a center fielder. Rowand is iffy. He might be best suited as a 4th outfielder

Lip

hold2dibber
09-11-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Looks like another 2nd or 3rd place finish with about 83 wins to me! LOL

Seriously it has some potential but that's a word that Sox fans have heard for a veeerrryyy long time... They still need quality starters, a solid catcher, and maybe a center fielder. Rowand is iffy. He might be best suited as a 4th outfielder

Lip

I agree. But that is probably pretty close to the roster we'll see next year (although I think Ritchie will be here too). But if KW actually goes out and finds another good starter and a good catcher or CF, we could be looking at 88 or 89 wins which probably would be good enough to win the Division.

RichH55
09-11-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I agree. But that is probably pretty close to the roster we'll see next year (although I think Ritchie will be here too). But if KW actually goes out and finds another good starter and a good catcher or CF, we could be looking at 88 or 89 wins which probably would be good enough to win the Division.


Im not so sure we dont already have a good CF on the roster, Catcher is a blackhole around the league, so if we can get MJ to bat .250 with his normal walk rate that would do for me until olivio is ready.......We need another Starting Pitcher though...no doubt about that

hold2dibber
09-11-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Im not so sure we dont already have a good CF on the roster, Catcher is a blackhole around the league, so if we can get MJ to bat .250 with his normal walk rate that would do for me until olivio is ready.......We need another Starting Pitcher though...no doubt about that

I'm not sure if you're referring to Borchard, Rowand or Harris, but I don't feel confident that any of those three are ready to be an everyday MLB CF at this point. Borchard had a sub-par year at AAA -- I think he's still a year (or maybe 1/2 year) away. If Rowand is the starting CF next year, he'll basically turn in Chris Singleton numbers, but with a little more power and much more enthusiasm.

Randar68
09-11-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Rowand is the starting CF next year, he'll basically turn in Chris Singleton numbers, but with a little more power and much more enthusiasm.

Ummm, .275 with slower feet, less range, and a weaker arm?

grrrrrrrreat!

RichH55
09-11-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm not sure if you're referring to Borchard, Rowand or Harris, but I don't feel confident that any of those three are ready to be an everyday MLB CF at this point. Borchard had a sub-par year at AAA -- I think he's still a year (or maybe 1/2 year) away. If Rowand is the starting CF next year, he'll basically turn in Chris Singleton numbers, but with a little more power and much more enthusiasm.


Can you put up worse power numbers than Chris?

Iwritecode
09-11-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Can you put up worse power numbers than Chris?

I'm sure I could...

:)