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balboner
09-05-2002, 08:51 PM
- If Foulke could become a no. 3 starter, that would make this rotaton a ton better. No reason to have him as a closer w/people like Marte and some of the minor league guys we have.
- Get rid of Thomas and Clayton to improve clubhouse atmosphere.
- Have G. Glover as the set-up righty reliever. It's painful to see him lose his stuff after a few innings.
- Put Borchard on the 25 man roster. You can tell that he needs the challenge of MLB to bring out his potential.

Daver
09-05-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by balboner
- If Foulke could become a no. 3 starter, that would make this rotaton a ton better. No reason to have him as a closer w/people like Marte and some of the minor league guys we have.


That's a lot to ask from a two pitch pitcher that relies on a "gimmick" pitch that the league has caught on to......

WinningUgly!
09-05-2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by daver
That's a lot to ask from a two pitch pitcher that relies on a "gimmick" pitch that the league has caught on to......

I don't know if I'd call it a gimmick pitch, but there's now doubt the league has caught on to it.

Daver
09-05-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I don't know if I'd call it a gimmick pitch, but there's now doubt the league has caught on to it.

All changeups are "gimmick" pitches.

Chisox_cali
09-05-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I don't know if I'd call it a gimmick pitch, but there's now doubt the league has caught on to it.

Did they catch on and forget all of the sudden? His ERA since the AS Break is 1.14

RKMeibalane
09-05-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
Did they catch on and forget all of the sudden? His ERA since the AS Break is 1.14

I think Foulke's improvement is the result of a certain idividual no longer telling him what to do.

:nardi

"Who? Me?"

Lip Man 1
09-05-2002, 10:39 PM
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, then everyday would be Christmas.

As per usual with the Sox, far to many "ifs".

Go out and get some quality players and dump some of these "can't miss kids" who now have had three years showing their mediocrity and maybe they can contend or at least finish over .500.

If your payroll is only going to be 45 million next season you are simply going to be a more Eastern version of the Kansas City Royals. (and I don't think ANYBODY on the planet feels they are going to contend for anything...)

Lip

MarkEdward
09-05-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Go out and get some quality players and dump some of these "can't miss kids" who now have had three years showing their mediocrity and maybe they can contend or at least finish over .500.


What "kids" would you get rid of? Surely you don't mean Crede or Borchard.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, then everyday would be Christmas.

As per usual with the Sox, far to many "ifs".

Go out and get some quality players and dump some of these "can't miss kids" who now have had three years showing their mediocrity and maybe they can contend or at least finish over .500.

If your payroll is only going to be 45 million next season you are simply going to be a more Eastern version of the Kansas City Royals. (and I don't think ANYBODY on the planet feels they are going to contend for anything...)

Lip

Lip Man....

Oh Lip Man....

Chill out dude. Go smoke a bowl or something.

voodoochile
09-06-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Lip Man....

Oh Lip Man....

Chill out dude. Go smoke a bowl or something.

Lip has been a bit more depressed than usual recently. Must be the ending of another tiring year as a Sox fan wearing him down. I do agree that if I ever stop believing in any team, I will quit them. I did it with the flubbies in 1979 and I can do it again if necessary. I must admit that I am seriously considering going on strike from the ballpark until JR sells though. His recent comments about taking the new revenue sharing money and reducing debt really ticked me off. I am very tired of listening to this superrich jackass whine about his lack of money and abuse my trust to do so. Anyone want to picket the park with me next year?

All changeups are "gimmick" pitches.

Tell that to Greg Maddux... What are you trying to say here? Isn't any pitch except for a fastball by definition a "gimmick" pitch?

As to the suggestion that we dump Frank to improve clubhouse atmosphere. Sorry, I disagree (I know, big shock ). Talent over chemistry every day and anyday. Anyone who can't get along with Frank (or Maggs, or Carlos, or Paulie, or Buehrle, or whoever the team decides is good enough to play here) is welcome to research a trade. Not guaranteeing they will get one, but feel free to look into it. If the Sox like what they can get for you, you are free to go whine about chemistry elsewhere... Chemistry is the most overrated concept in baseball and maybe in all of sports. Though at least in basketball, football and hockey you can see how it might make a difference, but in baseball it isn't like you are going to strike out on purpose to prevent the guy who hits behind you from collecting RBI's, and if you hit homeruns to prevent your teammates from collecting RBI's, then I say please decide to dislike the guy who hits behind you...

Chisox_cali
09-06-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Lip Man....

Oh Lip Man....

Chill out dude. Go smoke a bowl or something.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!! Post of the Week!!!!! :gulp: :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-06-2002, 07:58 AM
The keys to success in '03? That's easy.

1. Upgrade the rotation. After Buehrle, we have nobody I would trust in Game 2 of a playoff series.

2. Get a major league catcher.

3. Solve the problem in center field.

Gee, these are exactly the same problems we had in 2000. In the two seasons since then, Reinsdorf and Williams have done squat to fix any of them.

Who's surprised?

:reinsy
"Well, we got David Wells, albeit for the price of Mike Sirotka."

:XL
"Hahahaha! I'll get a ring with New York."

:KW
"I got Todd Ritchie, albeit for 3 decent pitchers."

:ritchie
"I won't lose 20 games after all! Thanks, Kenny!"

:reinsy
"Don't forget acquiring Kenny Lofton for $1 million and a bunch of bonus clauses for attendance. Hahahahaha!"

:lofton
"What a sucker I was."

:KW
"And aren't I an unappreciated genius getting Willie Harris for Chris Singleton."

:slowswing
"You get what you pay for, Kenny."

:versatile
"I'm ba-aack!"

:ohno
"The key to success? More alcohol."

WinningUgly!
09-06-2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
3. Solve the problem in center field.


Juan Pierre? I've heard that he'll be available this offseason now that Colorado has Jay Payton.

spanishwhite
09-06-2002, 09:06 AM
Gimmick pitch?

Im definitely not sold on him being a starter, but he
is supposed to be working on a curveball.

Fastball, curveball, changeup=Foulke

Lowe lives off his sinker just like Foulke could probably
do with his changeup(gimmick pitch)

Jamie Moyer is 50yrs old with a topped out fastball of
85mph. He lives and dies with his changeup and he has an
ERA under 3. Not to mention the durability he has shown
over the past couple of years.

Dont underestimate the changeup.

WinningUgly!
09-06-2002, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by daver
All changeups are "gimmick" pitches.

What makes a change-up a "gimmick pitch"?

hold2dibber
09-06-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The keys to success in '03? That's easy.

1. Upgrade the rotation. After Buehrle, we have nobody I would trust in Game 2 of a playoff series.

2. Get a major league catcher.

3. Solve the problem in center field.

Gee, these are exactly the same problems we had in 2000. In the two seasons since then, Reinsdorf and Williams have done squat to fix any of them.

Who's surprised?



Bingo. But none of this is going to happen - I seriously doubt they'll try to add pitching; they're going to live and die with the youngsters they have now. Seeing as Olivo is probably penciled in as the starting catcher in 2004, my guess is they'll just live with the ferocious two-headed Johnson/Paul combo in '03 rather than finding a one-year stop gap. Maybe they'll go after a new CF in the offseason, but then again, Rowand has played well enough to perhaps fool them into thinking he can fit the bill over the long haul. Our only hope is if Garland turns into another Dereck Lowe and Wright turns into another Kevin Brown. Otherwise, we're looking at another season of somewhere between 75 and 85 wins.

doublem23
09-06-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The keys to success in '03? That's easy.

1. Upgrade the rotation. After Buehrle, we have nobody I would trust in Game 2 of a playoff series.

2. Get a major league catcher.

3. Solve the problem in center field.

Gee, these are exactly the same problems we had in 2000. In the two seasons since then, Reinsdorf and Williams have done squat to fix any of them.

Who's surprised?

Well, for the record, in 2000, was there really anyone that was trustable in Game 1 of a play-off series? As good a year as Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin, and Eldred had, I really don't think we had a legitimate "ace," like we do now in Mark.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-06-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Well, for the record, in 2000, was there really anyone that was trustable in Game 1 of a play-off series? As good a year as Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin, and Eldred had, I really don't think we had a legitimate "ace," like we do now in Mark.

Yeah, you're right. Instead of 3-and-out, we get dumped 3 games to 1.

You need at least two quality starters in the playoffs. We're short--and that hasn't changed.

Konerko05
09-06-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
What makes a change-up a "gimmick pitch"?

Absolutely nothing.

Randar68
09-06-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by balboner
- If Foulke could become a no. 3 starter, that would make this rotaton a ton better. No reason to have him as a closer w/people like Marte and some of the minor league guys we have.
- Get rid of Thomas and Clayton to improve clubhouse atmosphere.
- Have G. Glover as the set-up righty reliever. It's painful to see him lose his stuff after a few innings.
- Put Borchard on the 25 man roster. You can tell that he needs the challenge of MLB to bring out his potential.

:whoflungpoo

MarkEdward
09-06-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Juan Pierre? I've heard that he'll be available this offseason now that Colorado has Jay Payton.


NO NO NO! Worst everyday player in baseball. An OBP hovering around .300 playing for the Rockies! No arm! A very useless player.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-06-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Well, for the record, in 2000, was there really anyone that was trustable in Game 1 of a play-off series? As good a year as Sirotka, Parque, Baldwin, and Eldred had, I really don't think we had a legitimate "ace," like we do now in Mark.

I should also note that as weak as the '00 Sox starting pitchers were, the Sox were swept because the bats went completely silent. Parque and Baldwin actually pitched quite well.

In a short series, you just don't know what is going to happen. However, we should not count on Buehrle shouldering the load alone.

:reinsy
"And you can forget me going out and signing anybody's arm to a long-term deal--unless it is Navarro."

:KW
"Huh-uh, huh-uh! That's right boss, that's right! Huh-uh, huh-uh!"

voodoochile
09-06-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
NO NO NO! Worst everyday player in baseball. An OBP hovering around .300 playing for the Rockies! No arm! A very useless player.

:hitless
"Hey, what about me?"

:jerry
"Yeah, my Nephew is as worthless as anybody."

:hitless
"Thanks, Uncle Jerry. Can we get some ice cream now?"

:jerry
"Not yet, but I'll be letting you start a couple more games before the season is over and we'll get you a cone after those games."

Iguana775
09-06-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
What makes a change-up a "gimmick pitch"?

i never understood that either but i just let them have their opinion. as someone said earlier, he has a very good era since the break. i think mostly due that nardi the alien isnt hear anymore.

to me, a gimmick pitch would be one that is thrown between the legs or something like that. LOL. again, as someone said earlier, depending on how you look at it, any pitch that is not a fastball could be considered a 'gimmick' pitch and EVERY pitcher in the league has one or more.

Lip Man 1
09-06-2002, 04:37 PM
Mark:

Off the top of my head I'd say can the following (as long as you are going to replace them with some actual major leaguers:)

Josh Paul
Mark Johnson
Carlos Lee
Kelly Wunsch
Jim Parque
Lorenzo Barcelo (currently DL / Triple A)
Rocky (I pitch like Bullwinkle) Biddle
Gary Glover
Dan (I Can't Pitch) Wright

Vets I let go are:

Royce Clayton
Todd Ritchie
and maybe Frank Thomas

As you can see we're talking about almost a total makeover. This team has to many kids, to many DH / 1st base types, no defensive ability, and very little starting pitching.

Plus they need a vetran field manager and the best GM that money can buy.

It's wishful thinking anyway, Uncle Jerry won't spend a dime.

Lip

kermittheefrog
09-06-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Carlos Lee
Dan (I Can't Pitch) Wright


Do you know anything about baseball? I'm serious, it's obvious you're a good writer and know a lot about sarcasm but how about baseball? Get rid of Danny Wright and Carlos Lee?

Let's start with Wright. First and most importantly he's just 24. Secondly he was in AA last year, so moving to the majors is a big leap. He's also made some big strides in the second half, he's cut his ERA by .7 runs, walked two less batters a game and struck out two more. So we've got a pitcher a year out of AA showing improvement and you want to dump him before he turns 25? I'm glad you're not our general manager. Be honest, you were on the get rid of Kip Wells bandwagon weren't you?

And Carlos Lee. Lets see Lee's biggest problem has been a lack of plate discipline. He drew just 38 walks in both of the last two seasons. This year he's almost doubled his walk rate. Since June he's been an on-base machine. Walking 18 times in June, 16 times in July and 12 times in August and he's already walked 8 times in September. He's hitting .265/.388/.476 since the end of May. The guy finally puts his game together at the plate and you want him out?

Get a clue.

guillen4life13
09-06-2002, 10:32 PM
man, kermit... awesome post.

as for foulke being a starter... somewhere, I read that when he switched to relief/closing... he dumped two or three pitches. I'm sure he could relearn those 2/3 pitches, and then some. Right now he has a fast and change, right? Get him a slider and a splitter/curveball, and he COULD qualify. Am I gonna expect 20 wins out of him? hell friggin' no! 10-12 wins as a starter? possibly. we first need to see him start to decide if he qualifies.

MarkEdward
09-06-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
[B]Mark:

Off the top of my head I'd say can the following

Josh Paul
Mark Johnson
Carlos Lee
Kelly Wunsch
Jim Parque
Lorenzo Barcelo (currently DL / Triple A)
Rocky (I pitch like Bullwinkle) Biddle
Gary Glover
Dan (I Can't Pitch) Wright

I agree on Paul. Johnson is a great backup catcher, so he's a keeper. I'm still undecided on Lee, but that .817 OPS is an improvement. Wunsch is a great LOOGY, but replaceable. Agree on Parque, Barcelo doesn't have much trade value. I'd keep Biddle, Glover, and Wright.

Lip Man 1
09-07-2002, 12:04 AM
Kermit:

Thoughts on Carlos "El Stupido" Lee

This guy is dumb as a fence post when it comes to baseball sense or have you forgotten the NUMBER of times he's been picked off bases and even worse tried to steal 3rd base with less then two outs the past two seasons. (Three times by my count)

He can't do things like execute fundamentals and need we even talk about his defense?

The Sporting News in 2000 had a long story on the Sox and in it said Lee's best position was DH. That's fine if you are going to get rid of Thomas.

and if Bouchard is on the team next year, Lee's probably squeezed out anyway since the Sox have said Bouchard's NOT going to play CF. So who do you bench Lee or Ordonez???

See my point?

as far as Danny (I Can't Pitch) Wright send him back to the minors for two years to get some seasoning, like all of the Sox "can't miss kid" pitchers they were rushed to the bigs with little experience and poor coaching. (If the Sox were a real baseball organization and would spend some money to get 2 legit pitchers, I'd say send Garland back down as well.)

Nobody is being helped by them pitching a good games, then two terrible ones.

Lip

kermittheefrog
09-07-2002, 01:19 AM
Okay I looked at the games in which Lee was caught stealing over the last 2 years and he has been caught stealing third all of 3 times. Two times in games we won and Lee made the attempt while we were up by more than one run. Once in a game we lost and we were down three.

Unfortunately I couldn't easily find how many times Carlos had been picked off but honestly how many times could it have happened? 5 at most? Over 2 years? Who the hell cares? The guy can hit. As for his defense? It's bad but thats why he's in left field. Take a look around, there aren't a lot of graceful, amazing leftfielders. Think about the outfield, the guys who can run are in center, the guys who can throw hard are in right, the guys who can't play center or right play left. Left field isn't a defensive position, Carlos isn't hurting us there. The Yankees won the World Series with Chuck Knoblauch in left field and nobody has ever said or will ever say the man could play left field at any level great than "bad". I haven't heard any representative of the Sox organization say Borchard isn't going to play center. Manuel has said down the stretch Rowand will get most of the PT in center because he needs to be evaluated but no one has said long term Joe Borchard isn't a centerfielder.

As for Garland and Wright? Hell the guys have to come up sometime or they'll never become big league pitchers.

Nellie_Fox
09-07-2002, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Do you know anything about baseball? I'm serious, it's obvious you're a good writer and know a lot about sarcasm but how about baseball? I would agree with you except for the part about being a good writer. He still doesn't know the difference between "then" and "than," and I'm guessing that the Bouchard he has referred to on a couple of threads is Borchard?

Chisox_cali
09-07-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I would agree with you except for the part about being a good writer. He still doesn't know the difference between "then" and "than," and I'm guessing that the Bouchard he has referred to on a couple of threads is Borchard?

HeHeHe, nice Nellie, nice :gulp: