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balboner
09-04-2002, 08:43 PM
Which fringe player would you like to see on next year's roster? I think Porzio is a better lefty option than Wunsch as he is more effective vs righties. I think the only way they'll put Borchard on the team is if either Lee or Frank get traded in the offseason.

guillen4life13
09-04-2002, 09:45 PM
Here's my ideal roster... possibly platooning Jimenez and Wee Willie, until they can make credible evaluations of the two, and make one of them the main guys:

1. 2B Jimenez
2. CF Borchard
3. DH Thomas
4. RF Ordonez
5. 1B Konerko
6. LF Lee
7. 3B Crede
8. C Doe
9. SS Valentin

I wonder if Crash will accept being a 4th outfielder or not... he's probably good enough to start on some other teams. trade bait? hmm...

Mark and Josh seriously aren't going to cut it... (mark has consistently shown that he is a career second string C... and josh needs to show that he can do the job).

i like food, food is good!
- The Descendents

duke of dorwood
09-04-2002, 10:37 PM
We keep both lefties. Wunsch is probably better against right handers when he's healthy.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Here's my ideal roster... possibly platooning Jimenez and Wee Willie, until they can make credible evaluations of the two, and make one of them the main guys:

1. 2B Jimenez
2. CF Borchard
3. DH Thomas
4. RF Ordonez
5. 1B Konerko
6. LF Lee
7. 3B Crede
8. C Doe
9. SS Valentin

I wonder if Crash will accept being a 4th outfielder or not... he's probably good enough to start on some other teams. trade bait? hmm...

Mark and Josh seriously aren't going to cut it... (mark has consistently shown that he is a career second string C... and josh needs to show that he can do the job).

i like food, food is good!
- The Descendents

Manuel is quoted in today's paper (Trib) as saying that Borchard won't play center (suggesting that Lee may be dealt). I think it would be a mistake to pencil Borchard in as a starter from the get go next season. I think he needs at least another 1/2 season at AAA.

There are some big decisions to be made with respect to the pitching staff. As I see it, there are about 14 or 15 guys with legitimate shots to make the 11 or 12 man pitching staff next year:

Buehrle
Garland
Wright
Glover
Ritchie
Biddle
Parque (if he's still around)
Foulke
Porzio
Ginter
Rauch
Wunsch
Marte
Osuna
Almonte
Adkins

This assumes that they don't trade for or sign any new pitchers (a safe assumption, if you ask me). My guess is that Parque and perhaps Foulke will be gone (though I think trading Foulke now would be a huge mistake - his value is at an all time low and we know the guy has it in him to be a very effective pitcher) and Rauch and Adkins will be in AAA.

harwar
09-05-2002, 10:11 AM
Who knows,next year Foulke may be starting.I read where the Sox are going to give him a start sometime soon.

Randar68
09-05-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by harwar
Who knows,next year Foulke may be starting.I read where the Sox are going to give him a start sometime soon.

Then they should just trade him. He has no value or ability as a starter.

RKMeibalane
09-05-2002, 12:07 PM
A lot hinges on how players fare in Spring Training. If Borchard gets off to strong start, I think he should make the team. It looks like Lee will be gone as soon as KW finds someone to take him. I just hope the Sox get something reasonable in return.

:KW

"What do you mean? I always get equal value in return."

duke of dorwood
09-05-2002, 01:04 PM
They will save Big $ if they dump Lee, the Choice and Foulke. I have a hunch they will keep Lee if they get rid of the other 2.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 01:15 PM
Can someone explain to me why dealing Foulke would be a good idea? Seems very foolish to me.

voodoochile
09-05-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Can someone explain to me why dealing Foulke would be a good idea? Seems very foolish to me.

Sort of depends. If the Sox are not going to let him close and he cannot be converted to starter then it would be a good idea to spend the $6M elsewhere. If he can prove Randar wrong (not expecting that to happen) and develop into a solid starter, or the Sox decide to let him go back to closing based on his performance the second half, then it would be okay to keep him. He is one of the tradable commodities (depending on if another team is willing to take a chance) they have that they are willing to part with at present. The money would be better spent toward signing Konerko and Buehrle and keeping Frank happy, IMO. Can KW package Lee and Foulke for a starter who can actually pitch? Odds are against it, but that's because of KW, not because of the talent offered...

FarmerAndy
09-05-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
They will save Big $ if they dump Lee, the Choice and Foulke. I have a hunch they will keep Lee if they get rid of the other 2.

I wouldn't stop there.

Now, I don't expect the Sox to be serious contenders in 2003. So, I'd go with a set infield of Crede, Jimenez, Harris, and Konerko. Let them work out the kinks in 2003 and get them ready for 2004. In the future, I'd like to keep Konerko, Ordonez, and Buehrle. So any money we can save now will help later. I don't see the point in paying Jose Valentin 5 million for one more year if we aren't even gonna be in the race. I'd rather find out if Jimenez can be an everyday SS over the course of next season, rather than playing Valentin all year and then trying to figure out what we're gonna do in 2004.

Don't buy that Kenny Williams crap that "we're not rebuilding, we're are just re shuffling the deck." Thats hogwash. Next season should be a trial season, and I don't want to see anybody that makes more than 2 million and won't be with the club in 2004. It would be a waste of money.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Sort of depends. If the Sox are not going to let him close and he cannot be converted to starter then it would be a good idea to spend the $6M elsewhere. If he can prove Randar wrong (not expecting that to happen) and develop into a solid starter, or the Sox decide to let him go back to closing based on his performance the second half, then it would be okay to keep him. He is one of the tradable commodities (depending on if another team is willing to take a chance) they have that they are willing to part with at present. The money would be better spent toward signing Konerko and Buehrle and keeping Frank happy, IMO. Can KW package Lee and Foulke for a starter who can actually pitch? Odds are against it, but that's because of KW, not because of the talent offered...

The problem I have with this is that if they're planning on trading Foulke, he should be back in the closer's role, proving he can do that job. I don't see anyone being interested in taking on a $6 mm contract for a guy who has become a middle reliever/mop up man. Plus, I don't think the Sox have anyone on their current roster that has the potential to be as good a closer as Foulke has been in the 2 seasons before this year so I am disgusted by the thought of them just giving him away simply to avoid spending the money (I can see doing that with Clayton or Alomar but not someone who has All-Star caliber talent like Foulke).

They should either have him in the closer's role now or starting now; he's paid too much to be another middle reliever so they need to find out if he can do something else. My sense is they're leaving him in middle relief so he doesn't prove that he can't do anything else, because that would totally kill any trade value he may have. And this approach pisses me off because it basically means that they've entirely given up on a guy who was spectacular the last two seasons and has been pretty good in the second half of this season too.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I wouldn't stop there.

Now, I don't expect the Sox to be serious contenders in 2003. So, I'd go with a set infield of Crede, Jimenez, Harris, and Konerko. Let them work out the kinks in 2003 and get them ready for 2004. In the future, I'd like to keep Konerko, Ordonez, and Buehrle. So any money we can save now will help later. I don't see the point in paying Jose Valentin 5 million for one more year if we aren't even gonna be in the race. I'd rather find out if Jimenez can be an everyday SS over the course of next season, rather than playing Valentin all year and then trying to figure out what we're gonna do in 2004.

Don't buy that Kenny Williams crap that "we're not rebuilding, we're are just re shuffling the deck." Thats hogwash. Next season should be a trial season, and I don't want to see anybody that makes more than 2 million and won't be with the club in 2004. It would be a waste of money.

I disagree. I'm not ready to give up on 2003 already. I certainly don't see the Tigers, Royals or Indians fielding a division-champion caliber team next year. That leaves the Twins. They will have to greatly increase their payroll in the offseason just to keep their current club in tact. Although the new CBA might allow them to do so, I don't know if it will and, even if it does, I don't know if Pohlad will use that extra $ for that purpose. Anyway, the Twins, like so may division winning teams, are riding high on career years by quite a few players. Every single member of the Twins bullpen is having a career year. Lots of those guys are going to fall back to earth next year. I think Jones, Pierzynski, Santana, Kielty and Mohr (and possibly Lohse) have all played way over their heads as well. What I'm saying is, the Twins won't be as good next year as they are this year. I think the Sox have a good chance to be better than they are this year (dependent, largely, upon the development of the Garland, Wright, Biddle, Glover, Ginter, Rauch, etc.). That's why I would have Jimenez and Harris battle for the 2B spot and think about trying to pick up a decent C and CF via trade or free agency. I wouldn't cede 2003 to the Twins under these circumstances, particularly when the Sox fortunes in both 2003 and 2004, no matter what they do with their position players, is largely dependent upon what happens with all the young pitchers.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 03:32 PM
I'm extremely confident we have a team that can compete with the Twins, we just have to put everyone in their proper role. Here's how I think we'd best prepare for battle next year:

Jimenez, 2B
Valentin, SS
Konerko, 1B
Ordonez, RF
Lee, LF
Thomas, DH
Borchard, CF
Crede, 3B
Johnson, C

Rotation
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Rauch

Marte can be the closer.

RedPinStripes
09-05-2002, 03:38 PM
Borchard in CF? I don't know about that. I'd rather see harris out there with no Carlos Lee.

delben91
09-05-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

Rotation
Buehrle
Foulke
Garland
Wright
Rauch


Foulke as the number two starter? Based purely on speculation of potential (or lack thereof)? I know the alternatives may not be "outstanding", but I'd rather bump your bottom 3 starters up a notch and stick Biddle or Ginter into the #5 slot. They at least seem to have more than 2 useable pitches.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Borchard in CF? I don't know about that. I'd rather see harris out there with no Carlos Lee.

You mean the Willie Harris that can't hit?

Jerry_Manuel
09-05-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by delben91
Foulke as the number two starter? Based purely on speculation of potential (or lack thereof)? I know the alternatives may not be "outstanding", but I'd rather bump your bottom 3 starters up a notch and stick Biddle or Ginter into the #5 slot. They at least seem to have more than 2 useable pitches.

Ritchie is coming back, so any idea of Foulke starting isn't going to fly.

FarmerAndy
09-05-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I disagree. I'm not ready to give up on 2003 already. I certainly don't see the Tigers, Royals or Indians fielding a division-champion caliber team next year. That leaves the Twins. They will have to greatly increase their payroll in the offseason just to keep their current club in tact. Although the new CBA might allow them to do so, I don't know if it will and, even if it does, I don't know if Pohlad will use that extra $ for that purpose. Anyway, the Twins, like so may division winning teams, are riding high on career years by quite a few players. Every single member of the Twins bullpen is having a career year. Lots of those guys are going to fall back to earth next year. I think Jones, Pierzynski, Santana, Kielty and Mohr (and possibly Lohse) have all played way over their heads as well. What I'm saying is, the Twins won't be as good next year as they are this year. I think the Sox have a good chance to be better than they are this year (dependent, largely, upon the development of the Garland, Wright, Biddle, Glover, Ginter, Rauch, etc.). That's why I would have Jimenez and Harris battle for the 2B spot and think about trying to pick up a decent C and CF via trade or free agency. I wouldn't cede 2003 to the Twins under these circumstances, particularly when the Sox fortunes in both 2003 and 2004, no matter what they do with their position players, is largely dependent upon what happens with all the young pitchers.

I understand what you're saying, but you have to look beyond our division. Sure, it's possible that we could focus on taking a weak division next year. But what good does that do? Do you think we'd be able to compete with the big boys in the post season?

I'd much rather focus on building next year, and saving some money to spend in 2004, in hopes of putting together a team that could be a serious contender for a few years. Putting all of our focus and energy into taking a weak division in 2003 seems pointless.

Besides, if the division is so bad, who's to say we might not be able to win it even if we did cut all of the extra fat?

FarmerAndy
09-05-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You mean the Willie Harris that can't hit?

One homer doesn't exactly prove to us that Borchard can hit yet either. Does it?

voodoochile
09-05-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I understand what you're saying, but you have to look beyond our division. Sure, it's possible that we could focus on taking a weak division next year. But what good does that do? Do you think we'd be able to compete with the big boys in the post season?

I'd much rather focus on building next year, and saving some money to spend in 2004, in hopes of putting together a team that could be a serious contender for a few years. Putting all of our focus and energy into taking a weak division in 2003 seems pointless.

Besides, if the division is so bad, who's to say we might not be able to win it even if we did cut all of the extra fat?

JR is that you? Man, I am tired of hearing this refrain. When is it time to go for it? When is it time to sell out and acquire some veteran pitching? When is it time to make another team dump veteran talent at the deadline and actually acquire a guy who will put the team over the top?

I'm not upset with you personally, but this is the same old same old company line: Hurry up and wait. There is a talented young core on this team. Crede looks like he will solidfy the left side. Jimenez can hit and play 2B. Jose is a solid bat at SS. Rowand can start in CF and they can call up Joe when he is on a hot streak. What they really need is a couple of top end pitchers and there are going to be a few on the market this off season.

JR keeps crying poor and it becomes wish fulfillment. Stop fiddling while our team burns down. Go get the players necessary to instill some urgency in the team and some hope in the fan base. Time to crap or get off the pot, JR...

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I understand what you're saying, but you have to look beyond our division. Sure, it's possible that we could focus on taking a weak division next year. But what good does that do? Do you think we'd be able to compete with the big boys in the post season?

I'd much rather focus on building next year, and saving some money to spend in 2004, in hopes of putting together a team that could be a serious contender for a few years. Putting all of our focus and energy into taking a weak division in 2003 seems pointless.

Besides, if the division is so bad, who's to say we might not be able to win it even if we did cut all of the extra fat?

The only way this team is going to become a contender for a few years is if several of the young pitchers turn out to be big time studs. Regardless of what the Sox do with their position players next year or the year thereafter, this team will be a threat to win a play off series or two only if at least two of the young pitchers turn the corner and become good enough to go head to head against the Andy Pettites, Tim Hudsons and Mike Mussinas of the world. I don't think our approaches are radically different anyway - I just would keep Jose because I think he's useful and if he's around, we only need Jimenez OR Harris to be good, instead of both of them. As to Foulke, I'd keep him unless you can package him with Lee or somebody to get a solid starting pitcher.

FarmerAndy
09-05-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

What they really need is a couple of top end pitchers and there are going to be a few on the market this off season.



If JR was willing to go after some GOOD pitching, then I would be O.K. with keeping a 5 million guy like Jose for another year. But do you think this will happen?

What good top end pitchers will be available this off season? (and by top end, I don't mean some 38 year old who might be ready to fall apart, or some Todd Ritchie type chump.)

voodoochile
09-05-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If JR was willing to go after some GOOD pitching, then I would be O.K. with keeping a 5 million guy like Jose for another year. But do you think this will happen?

What good top end pitchers will be available this off season? (and by top end, I don't mean some 38 year old who might be ready to fall apart, or some Todd Ritchie type chump.)

I'd sign Maddux and Clemens in a heartbeat. I think they are both available. If they stink then all they cost us is money anyway.

Daver
09-05-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If JR was willing to go after some GOOD pitching, then I would be O.K. with keeping a 5 million guy like Jose for another year. But do you think this will happen?

What good top end pitchers will be available this off season? (and by top end, I don't mean some 38 year old who might be ready to fall apart, or some Todd Ritchie type chump.)

Here you go:

Terry Adams-x Wilson Alvarez Brian Anderson
Pedro Astacio-x James Baldwin-x Andy Benes-z
Jason Bere Paul Byrd Frank Castillo
Roger Clemens-y Omar Daal Jeff D'Amico
Shawn Estes Chuck Finley Tom Glavine
Rick Helling-z Pat Hentgen-x Dustin Hermanson-x
Bobby J Jones-x Jon Lieber-x Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza Albie Lopez Greg Maddux
Dave Mlicki Brian Moehler Jamie Moyer
Charles Nagy Darren Oliver Steve Parris
Robert Person Andy Pettitte-x Shane Reynolds-x
Armando Reynoso-x Kenny Rogers Todd Stottlemyre
Julian Tavarez Steve Trachsel Ismael Valdes
Tim Wakefield-x Woody Williams Jamey Wright


x-team option y-player option z-mutual option


Out of the whole list there are maybe three or four worth signing.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
One homer doesn't exactly prove to us that Borchard can hit yet either. Does it?

No but hitting in the minors tells me that Borchard can hit and Harris can't. Good enough for me.

rmusacch
09-05-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Ritchie is coming back, so any idea of Foulke starting isn't going to fly.


Why does Ritchie have to come back? He is eligible for arbitration. The Sox could just cut bait with him.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Why does Ritchie have to come back? He is eligible for arbitration. The Sox could just cut bait with him.

I would be shocked if KW were to do this - it would be to admit a making a horrific mistake, and I don't think he's going to do that.

hold2dibber
09-05-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by daver
Here you go:

Terry Adams-x Wilson Alvarez Brian Anderson
Pedro Astacio-x James Baldwin-x Andy Benes-z
Jason Bere Paul Byrd Frank Castillo
Roger Clemens-y Omar Daal Jeff D'Amico
Shawn Estes Chuck Finley Tom Glavine
Rick Helling-z Pat Hentgen-x Dustin Hermanson-x
Bobby J Jones-x Jon Lieber-x Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza Albie Lopez Greg Maddux
Dave Mlicki Brian Moehler Jamie Moyer
Charles Nagy Darren Oliver Steve Parris
Robert Person Andy Pettitte-x Shane Reynolds-x
Armando Reynoso-x Kenny Rogers Todd Stottlemyre
Julian Tavarez Steve Trachsel Ismael Valdes
Tim Wakefield-x Woody Williams Jamey Wright


x-team option y-player option z-mutual option


Out of the whole list there are maybe three or four worth signing.

I'm guessing Clements returns to NY and Glavine returns to the Braves. If Maddux doesn't return to the Braves (and I think there's a chance he will), I doubt he'd go to a team (i.e., the Sox) that isn't a WS contender already - I bet he'll end up with the Mariners, the D-backs or the Cardinals.

Of the rest, I'd be interested, depending on cost, in Astacio, Daal, Moyer, Williams and Byrd. There are some other guys that are okay, but aren't going to put you over the top and probably will cost more than they're worth (e.g., Baldwin, Trachsel, Valdes, Finley). If he'd come here for nothing but incentive money, I wouldn't mind seeing Alvarez try to revive his career here.

Jerry_Manuel
09-05-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
JR is that you? Man, I am tired of hearing this refrain. When is it time to go for it? When is it time to sell out and acquire some veteran pitching? When is it time to make another team dump veteran talent at the deadline and actually acquire a guy who will put the team over the top?

You know the answer to that question, VD. Never.

Jerry_Manuel
09-05-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Why does Ritchie have to come back? He is eligible for arbitration. The Sox could just cut bait with him.

Williams already said he's in the plans for next year.

Jerry_Manuel
09-05-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm guessing Clements returns to NY and Glavine returns to the Braves. If Maddux doesn't return to the Braves (and I think there's a chance he will), I doubt he'd go to a team (i.e., the Sox) that isn't a WS contender already - I bet he'll end up with the Mariners, the D-backs or the Cardinals.

Maddux is a Boras client I do believe, so he isn't coming here. I don't think the Braves can afford what Maddux and Glavine. One of them yes, but not both.

For some reason there is this belief that Clemens will end up in back home in Texas.

RedPinStripes
09-05-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
No but hitting in the minors tells me that Borchard can hit and Harris can't. Good enough for me.

Harris hit in the minors. Not LTP #'s but pretty decent. Ray ray didn't hit when he first came up.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Harris hit in the minors. Not LTP #'s but pretty decent. Ray ray didn't hit when he first came up.

Harris hit .283/.345/.397 in AAA this year. Those would be good numbers for a major league second baseman but he was a triple A second baseman in a good hitters park so thats actually a pretty weak line. He wasn't even extremely successful stealing bases, stealing 32 and getting caught 14 times. I think Harris' future is in the utility man role.

RedPinStripes
09-05-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Harris hit .283/.345/.397 in AAA this year. Those would be good numbers for a major league second baseman but he was a triple A second baseman in a good hitters park so thats actually a pretty weak line. He wasn't even extremely successful stealing bases, stealing 32 and getting caught 14 times. I think Harris' future is in the utility man role.

I think he would be better as a utility player. He needs MLB ab's though. Seems that Borchard is not cut out for CF as the Sox were hoping for. If he can do at least what Rowand does defensivly, I'll be happy with that. I haven't seen him much though. All i know is what i've read on Borchard.

kermittheefrog
09-05-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I think he would be better as a utility player. He needs MLB ab's though. Seems that Borchard is not cut out for CF as the Sox were hoping for. If he can do at least what Rowand does defensivly, I'll be happy with that. I haven't seen him much though. All i know is what i've read on Borchard.

After inital doubts I never heard anything about Borchard struggling or not being able to cut it in center. I would really like to see the Sox give him a shot there.

RedPinStripes
09-05-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
After inital doubts I never heard anything about Borchard struggling or not being able to cut it in center. I would really like to see the Sox give him a shot there.

From what i understand he has "good speed for a big guy" That's the only negative i heard for CF. meaning he's not that fast. He's got a cannon for an arm though.

guillen4life13
09-05-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
From what i understand he has "good speed for a big guy" That's the only negative i heard for CF. meaning he's not that fast. He's got a cannon for an arm though.

is ltp faster than maggs? and i've heard that ltp has the better arm (he was a QB, so he probably would). maybe LTP goes to RF and Maggs to center (i've only seen maggs play one inning in center field, and he did make one put out, so i don't know much about this topic). do u think it could work? I honestly think that carlos is a sleeper, and we need von joshua back to wake carlos back up (since joshua was fired, carlos' hitting stats have gone way down... I just noticed that btw). We need a qualified hitting coach. you guys would know better as to who could cut it. how about someone like tony fernandez or something? will clark? you guys say people who hit well in the majors who could be willing.

Jerry_Manuel
09-05-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
maybe LTP goes to RF and Maggs to center (i've only seen maggs play one inning in center field, and he did make one put out, so i don't know much about this topic). do u think it could work?

If Borchard is going to wind up on a corner, it had better be right. Ordonez can move to left and Lee can do whatever he wants.

ma-gaga
09-09-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think Jones, Pierzynski, Santana, Kielty and Mohr (and possibly Lohse) have all played way over their heads as well.

The Sox need pitching. They need TWO pitchers to step up, eat innings, and pitch effectively.

Re Twins: J.Jones is peaking this year. That being said, he probably has a 2-3 year window at this production level. AJ Pierzynski will hit 290-300 until Mauer is ready. Santana has nasty stuff and will continue to pitch like he has. Kielty has an obp of 0.390. No fluke, he's the real deal. Mohr was the fricking AAA batting champion last year. Twins' starting pitching is finally starting to come around. Each of the starting 5 have a complete game shutout since August 1. Pohlad's budget might force Jaque out, but with 2 of the top 3 OF prospects the Twins are sitting pretty.

Next year they all start out 0-0. The Sox definitely have a chance, but KW needs to get starting pitching for the Sox to compete. Hitting wise, the Sox are the scariest team in the AL Central, but nobody fears their pitching.

doublem23
09-09-2002, 09:12 AM
I really wouldn't mind if the Sox tried to pry away Pierzynski from Minnesota (since they have that OTHER catch developing).

hold2dibber
09-09-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Next year they all start out 0-0. The Sox definitely have a chance, but KW needs to get starting pitching for the Sox to compete. Hitting wise, the Sox are the scariest team in the AL Central, but nobody fears their pitching .

Now that's the understatement of the year! :smile:

The Twins will be the favorites next year (and rightfully so). But I think that they'll be vulnerable because their bullpen won't be as good and their starting pitching is still sketchy (but could be very good).

bc2k
09-09-2002, 10:17 PM
Jimenez 2b
Rowand CF
Lee DH
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
Crede 3B
Borchard LF - if Maggs won't move from RF
Valentin SS
Paul C

Harris needs to get a hit other than from a bunt. That boy needs some AAA.

1. Buehrle
2. Ritchie
3. Garland
Guaranteed spots. Let the competition begin for the last two spots. Wright, Glover, Ginter, Rauch, Biddle, even Foulke.

Marte will be the closer.

Talk about saving money, cut Thomas and save 10 million.

RichH55
09-09-2002, 10:57 PM
Talking about money....subtracting Durham and the Choice from the payroll as well as Sandy, puts you at about 11 million saved, Lofton is another million......Plus the Wells buyout(IIRC) wont figure into next years budget....Thats a pretty nice headstart budget wise, especially when you can reasonably expect similar production from some of the younger kids....A Crede/Valentin Left side is going to hit better than a Valentin/Choice Left side, and that isn't even throwing in my theory that Jose hits better when he plays SS. Borchard should put up totally different numbers than Lofton, but should be a more productive hitter overall.

Replacing Rays numbers will be harder than that and we should see a rather significant dropoff there. This leaves us with a pretty damn good hitting lineup still and perhaps a better bench than we have had. I wouldn't be surprised to see Graff gone in the offseason, but the contract savings there isnt really worth it, hes good insurance if Willie struggles. Konerko should be in line for a nice raise(and hopefully a long term deal) and I think Foulkes next year is for more than this year, but even figuring in a liberal estimate on Konerkos deal, we should still have 6-8 million less in payroll from last year as the current team stands....That could do you some good

RichH55
09-09-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Talking about money....subtracting Durham and the Choice from the payroll as well as Sandy, puts you at about 11 million saved, Lofton is another million......Plus the Wells buyout(IIRC) wont figure into next years budget....Thats a pretty nice headstart budget wise, especially when you can reasonably expect similar production from some of the younger kids....A Crede/Valentin Left side is going to hit better than a Valentin/Choice Left side, and that isn't even throwing in my theory that Jose hits better when he plays SS. Borchard should put up totally different numbers than Lofton, but should be a more productive hitter overall.

Replacing Rays numbers will be harder than that and we should see a rather significant dropoff there. This leaves us with a pretty damn good hitting lineup still and perhaps a better bench than we have had. I wouldn't be surprised to see Graff gone in the offseason, but the contract savings there isnt really worth it, hes good insurance if Willie struggles. Konerko should be in line for a nice raise(and hopefully a long term deal) and I think Foulkes next year is for more than this year, but even figuring in a liberal estimate on Konerkos deal, we should still have 6-8 million less in payroll from last year as the current team stands....That could do you some good


And I'm thinking that 6-8 million should be enough to lure Byrd....Buerhle, Byrd, Garland, Ritchie, Wright doesnt feel like a horrible rotation to me, but maybe thats because I dont think Ritchie can posibly be as bad as this year or at least any blowups by him would be mitigated by a strong supporting cast..........Even if we cant pick up Byrd....I wouldnt mind picking up Moyer if the price is right......good veteran influence who should still have more than a few quality starts under his belt......but Bryd should probably be priority 1 along with a long term deal for Paulie

Jerry_Manuel
09-09-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Plus the Wells buyout(IIRC) wont figure into next years budget. Borchard should put up totally different numbers than Lofton, but should be a more productive hitter overall.


There was no buyout on Wells. He got his paycheck from 2001, and had a 9 million dollar option for 2002. The Sox didn't pick that up, thus he became a free agent.

Unless Borchard has a killer spring, I see him back in Charlotte.

Jerry_Manuel
09-09-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
And I'm thinking that 6-8 million should be enough to lure Byrd....but Bryd should probably be priority 1 along with a long term deal for Paulie

I don't see him leaving KC, if he does, he'll go to a Seattle or somewhere like that.

Daver
09-09-2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I don't see him leaving KC, if he does, he'll go to a Seattle or somewhere like that.

Michael Glass won't pay him without the other owners pressurring him to do so,he has already shown he would rather pocket the money.

Jerry_Manuel
09-09-2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by daver
Michael Glass won't pay him without the other owners pressurring him to do so,he has already shown he would rather pocket the money.

True, but the point is that Byrd will not be with the Sox in 2003.

Daver
09-09-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
True, but the point is that Byrd will not be with the Sox in 2003.

I can't argue that,your rotation is already on the team.

MarkEdward
09-09-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
True, but the point is that Byrd will not be with the Sox in 2003.

Do you really want him with the Sox? Byrd has had a great year, but he's only had one healthy season (prior to this year), and he's 32. If he's cheap, I'd pick him up, but I don't think he's worth a large contract.

Jerry_Manuel
09-09-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Do you really want him with the Sox? Byrd has had a great year, but he's only had one healthy season (prior to this year), and he's 32. If he's cheap, I'd pick him up, but I don't think he's worth a large contract.

Sounds like an Eldred type deal. Taking a chance on a guy who can't stay healthy, and hasn't had many good seasons. Byrd is a good pitcher on a piss poor team. Put him on the A's or Mariners and he's a totally different guy. Put him on the Sox, and flip a coin.

ma-gaga
09-10-2002, 05:26 PM
I've heard rumor that Byrd likes KC and that he plans to resign with them. Which is why they were upset that they didn't trade him, because they figured to get him back at the end of the year.

Also, Byrd is 31. He's had all of one good year and a career record of 35-35. 564 total innings in 7 years, 200 of those were in one year. ERA+ of 99 (100 is average). Moyer is a better pitcher, but he won't be as cheap, and he's older. 38 years old, 2292 innings pitched in 15 years, era+ of 106 (better than average).

Either one is a risk.

guillen4life13
09-10-2002, 07:22 PM
what good, YOUNG pitchers are out there? how out luring one of the youngins from atlanta, or dare I say, Matt Clement? Clement, of what i've seen has really impressed me. And as for the manager situation, since it seems that a lotta people want manuel out... how good was larry dierker? and do you think that cito gaston would be willing to manage again? how bout getting felipe alou from detroit? (i think those 3 are both wishful thinking, but hell! they managed some damn good teams.)

whitesoxaddict
09-14-2002, 01:37 AM
I'm not sure why people still want to get rid of carlos lee -- he's had a .400 OBP since the allstar break and is slugging near .500 for that period too. I think next year he'll put up at least a .900 OPS with about a .280 BA and >.375 OBP + >30 HRs. I'd be sorely disappointed if we traded him seeing as how it looks like he finally turned the corner and is ready to become a major force as a hitter.

RichH55
09-14-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxaddict
I'm not sure why people still want to get rid of carlos lee -- he's had a .400 OBP since the allstar break and is slugging near .500 for that period too. I think next year he'll put up at least a .900 OPS with about a .280 BA and >.375 OBP + >30 HRs. I'd be sorely disappointed if we traded him seeing as how it looks like he finally turned the corner and is ready to become a major force as a hitter.

Carlos has looked to have turned that corner before, however I am still one who is in his corner...though if you can get a true believer GM out there to deal you a true 1-2 starter who isnt overpriced and too old then I say goodbye to Carlos, of course outside of Oakland I dont see too many of those guys out there and I dont want KW talking to Beane anyway