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View Full Version : The Best all time Sox 3rd baseman.


RedPinStripes
09-02-2002, 12:25 PM
This one should be interesting.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
09-02-2002, 12:41 PM
WHAT?!??! NO SPOT FOR JOE CREDE!?!?!? :D:

I know I know, give him a few years.

voodoochile
09-02-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
WHAT?!??! NO SPOT FOR JOE CREDE!?!?!? :D:

I know I know, give him a few years.

No, but there could be a spot for Bobby Bonilla...

NUKE_CLEVELAND
09-02-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, but there could be a spot for Bobby Bonilla...

:hawk

"Maybe if I would have given him more than 2 weeks before getting rid of him."

RedPinStripes
09-02-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, but there could be a spot for Bobby Bonilla...

He didn't do much with the Sox and he wasn't great defensivly


And Crede needs a few years.

Dadawg_77
09-02-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, but there could be a spot for Bobby Bonilla...

As a kid, I almost caught his first homer.

duke of dorwood
09-02-2002, 01:38 PM
I'll take Pete Ward as #3

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2002, 01:45 PM
I think Melton will lose, even though I voted for him. I know back in 1999 Dave Wills did some Chicago-style voting for Meltie for WSI's Sox Fans' Hall of Fame. Maybe we ought to get him over here to vote a few dozen times again? :smile:

:wills
"I'm voting for ESPN Sox Insider, Bru-uuuce Levine, too!"

MarkEdward
09-02-2002, 04:25 PM
Ventura, and it's not even close.

oldcomiskey
09-02-2002, 05:25 PM
Melton was awful defensive wise but would have put up better numbers with the live ball... theres got to someone we are forgetting----but really between Ward and Ventura--Melton was it

CubKilla
09-02-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Melton was awful defensive wise but would have put up better numbers with the live ball... theres got to someone we are forgetting----but really between Ward and Ventura--Melton was it

I'm shocked no one remembered Vance Law. LOL. My vote is for Ventura.

WinningUgly!
09-02-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
theres got to someone we are forgetting

Milkman? Santo? :D:

SI1020
09-02-2002, 06:36 PM
My personal favorite is Robin Ventura. This has been a problem position for the Sox all throughout their history. Crede looks like the real deal, my best to him for sure. Don't forget old timers Buck Weaver and Willie Kamm. Buck Weaver, on the cusp of stardom was perhaps the most tragic of all the Black Sox. His inabliity to "rat" on his teammates sealed his doom. Willie Kamm was one of the most underrated White Sox players of all time. He manned the "hot corner" from 1923-1931 when the Sox were truly bad so he didn't get his just due. He was probably the slickest fielding 3bman of his era.

ChiSoxBobette
09-02-2002, 06:45 PM
Hey how About Eric Soderholm!
Go White Sox
Go Joe & Joe

Procol Harum
09-02-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Hey how About Eric Soderholm!


Well, he had a nice season and a half for the Sox.....

We've not had the greatest stock of talent at 3B--but, then again that's been a problem spot for a lot of other ML teams. Ventura was, overall the best we've had. Melton had power and actually made himself into a respectable third sacker by 1972, but he struck out way too much.

oldcomiskey
09-03-2002, 06:28 AM
so did Mickey Mantle

RedPinStripes
09-03-2002, 06:48 AM
I would make a poll for 2b, but there is no competition there. If you don't know who the best second baseman is to wear a Sox uni of all time, you're not a true Sox fan.

Procol Harum
09-03-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
so did Mickey Mantle

And so did Babe Stinkin' Ruth...but the dividends in the power hitter ratio between hrs, rbis and K's in Melton's case, methinks it safe to say, were not quite as attractive as either Mantle or Ruth....or Robin Ventura for that matter... :smile:

Procol Harum
09-03-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I would make a poll for 2b, but there is no competition there. If you don't know who the best second baseman is to wear a Sox uni of all time, you're not a true Sox fan.

Yeah, Jerry Adair was awesome, bay-bee!!

:ray

"Hey, he was talking about me!"

Randar68
09-03-2002, 10:24 AM
Always go with the Hriniak disciple!

CiscoCarlos
09-03-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Yeah, Jerry Adair was awesome, bay-bee!!

:ray

"Hey, he was talking about me!"

Don't forget Bobby Knoop!

Daver
09-03-2002, 03:15 PM
Man,where is the love for Greg Norton?

RedPinStripes
09-03-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by daver
Man,where is the love for Greg Norton?

Don't know how i could have ever forgotten him? :D:

hold2dibber
09-03-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I would make a poll for 2b, but there is no competition there. If you don't know who the best second baseman is to wear a Sox uni of all time, you're not a true Sox fan.

SS would be a tougher proposition.

As for 2B, you're right - Jorge Orta was the man!

Procol Harum
09-03-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by CiscoCarlos
Don't forget Bobby Knoop!

I'd been hoping to!! Now, if I can only forget Wayne Causey at SS..... :D:

RedPinStripes
09-03-2002, 03:52 PM
I don't even think 2b and ss are worth posting a poll for. I would think Apparicio and Fox would dominate for sure.

Nellie_Fox
09-03-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I don't even think 2b and ss are worth posting a poll for. I would think Apparicio and Fox would dominate for sure. While my choice would be Looie at short, I never got to see "old aches and pains" play. Don't forget we have two hall of fame shortstops, and there would be a lot of votes for Appling.

FarmerAndy
09-03-2002, 04:16 PM
Are you people nuts? Greg Norton is by far the best we've ever had at the hot corner.

Procol Harum
09-03-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
While my choice would be Looie at short, I never got to see "old aches and pains" play. Don't forget we have two hall of fame shortstops, and there would be a lot of votes for Appling.

If this was a true gauge of acumen, then Appling would garner a lot of votes. However, methinks that the natural bias toward one's own era of baseball and the dimming memories of hsitoric players would undercut his vote totals. Unless an olden days player was just heads and shoulders way better than all his subsequent heirs, many fans are not hipped enough to the history of the game to know enough to vote for old-timers. And that said even though I think most of the people on this board have a pretty good baseball IQ. It's jest human nature-I wonder if you put up a 2B poll if Ray Durham would beat out Eddie Collins for 2nd place. And then there's the legit question--should Collins be ranked ahead of Nellie? Certainly in terms of offense, the taciturn Irishman would be a bigger asset to the batting order.

MarkEdward
09-03-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I would make a poll for 2b, but there is no competition there. If you don't know who the best second baseman is to wear a Sox uni of all time, you're not a true Sox fan.


You do mean Eddie Collins, right? Sox all-time infield:

C: Fisk
1B: Thomas
2B: Collins
3B: Ventura
SS: Appling

WhiteSoxWinner
09-03-2002, 08:52 PM
OH COME ON!!! In the arguement of best 2B, how can you not think of Joey Cora?

idseer
09-03-2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
You do mean Eddie Collins, right? Sox all-time infield:

C: Fisk
1B: Thomas
2B: Collins
3B: Ventura
SS: Appling

you take collins, i'll take fox. 2nd base is a position where fielding is more important than, say, an outfield position. and fox had it all over collins in the field.

granted collins hit .333 compared to .288 for fox, but everyone hit .333 in collins day. it's not really a fair comparison.

over all, fox would be my pick. i will add that i think fox was underated even with his acknowlegment as the leagues best 2nd baseman early 50's to the early 60's.

idseer
09-03-2002, 09:12 PM
and i make the same argument for aparicio.
appling was a HACK at short ... worse than valentin.

1b - thomas
2nd - fox
3rd - ventura
ss - aparicio

guillen4life13
09-03-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by idseer
and i make the same argument for aparicio.
appling was a HACK at short ... worse than valentin.


worse than clayton too? j/k

MarkEdward
09-03-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by idseer
you take collins, i'll take fox. 2nd base is a position where fielding is more important than, say, an outfield position. and fox had it all over collins in the field.

Eddie Collins was no slouch in the field. Far from it. His Fielding Percentage was .970, where the league average was .958. His Range Factor was 5.34, where the league average was 5.10. Fox was great in the field, but his FP wasn't much higher than the league average (.984 to .977). His range was amazing (5.43 to 4.89 in the league), but I don't think Fox has that much of an advantage over Collins in the field.


granted collins hit .333 compared to .288 for fox, but everyone hit .333 in collins day. it's not really a fair comparison.

Yes, everyone hit in the Deadball Era. Hence the name. League OPS during Collins' career: .707. League OPS for Fox's career: .737. So there was actually more offense in Nellie's day.

There's another way to show how dominant Eddie's offense was. His OPS+ in a Sox uniform was an average of 133. An OPS+ of 100 is an average hitter. Fox's was 94, below average.


over all, fox would be my pick. i will add that i think fox was underated even with his acknowlegment as the leagues best 2nd baseman early 50's to the early 60's.

Why would you take a strictly defensive player (Fox) over a terrific offensive and defensive player (Collins)? It's like choosing Royce Clayton over Alex Rodriguez.

Bisco Stu
09-04-2002, 02:28 AM
Robin's not only the greatest White Sox 3B of all time, he's #2 on the Mets (after HoJo)

CiscoCarlos
09-04-2002, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OH COME ON!!! In the arguement of best 2B, how can you not think of Joey Cora?

I concede that Cora was a great second baseman, but remember Knoop was with the Sox for two years (1969-70), a golden era in which they only lost 199 games (that is, under 200).

Plus, he batted eighth in the lineup--that is ahead of the pitcher. If Knoop wasn't the greatest, they would have had the pitcher bat ahead of him.

doublem23
09-04-2002, 09:07 AM
I write in a vote for Chris Snopek.

Procol Harum
09-04-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I write in a vote for Chris Snopek.

Hmmmm, the Force is strong in this one....

hold2dibber
09-04-2002, 09:42 AM
Wasn't KW a 3B? If you add his awesome contribution as a 3B on the field to his contribution as GM, KW is your winner!

idseer
09-04-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Eddie Collins was no slouch in the field. Far from it. His Fielding Percentage was .970, where the league average was .958. His Range Factor was 5.34, where the league average was 5.10. Fox was great in the field, but his FP wasn't much higher than the league average (.984 to .977). His range was amazing (5.43 to 4.89 in the league), but I don't think Fox has that much of an advantage over Collins in the field.




Yes, everyone hit in the Deadball Era. Hence the name. League OPS during Collins' career: .707. League OPS for Fox's career: .737. So there was actually more offense in Nellie's day.

There's another way to show how dominant Eddie's offense was. His OPS+ in a Sox uniform was an average of 133. An OPS+ of 100 is an average hitter. Fox's was 94, below average.

first, the jump between .977 to .984 is more significant than .958 to .970. the closer you get to perfection the harder it is to close that gap in percentages.
and we're not just talking errors either. fox averaged 14 assists and 32 more dp's PER YEAR than collins.
i hold that fox was a MUCH better fielder than collins.

second, the deadball era refers to homeruns, not batting average.the deadball era produced such hitters as ty cobb, honus wagner, tris speaker, joe jackson, etc. .... unless you think eddie collins was some kind of power hitter your teal pronoucement was dead wrong.


Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why would you take a strictly defensive player (Fox) over a terrific offensive and defensive player (Collins)? It's like choosing Royce Clayton over Alex Rodriguez.

i could not fault someone for choosing eddied collins. he was a great player.. but to suggest fox = clayton and collins = arod is ... well, it's just plain stupid. fox hit over .290 8 times! collins did it 10 times (as a sox player).
in addition fox was always considered one of the best clutch hitters in the game.

while i'll give you collins was a bigger hitter ... i'll still take fox as my second baseman!

MarkEdward
09-04-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
first, the jump between .977 to .984 is more significant than .958 to .970. the closer you get to perfection the harder it is to close that gap in percentages.
and we're not just talking errors either. fox averaged 14 assists and 32 more dp's PER YEAR than collins.
i hold that fox was a MUCH better fielder than collins.

Collins played with some of the worst SS's in the league defensively. In each of his 9 years playing a full season with the Sox, his SS's were above the league average in RF only 4 times. Fox's SS's were above league average in RF 13 of 14 times, playing with great defensive shortstops like Chico Carrasquel and Louis Apparicio.

I'm not arguing that Eddie was better defensively, only that the defensive gap is so small that you have to look at offense to see who was better.


second, the deadball era refers to homeruns, not batting average.the deadball era produced such hitters as ty cobb, honus wagner, tris speaker, joe jackson, etc. .... unless you think eddie collins was some kind of power hitter your teal pronoucement was dead wrong.

Well, Collins did have a SLG% of .429 when the league average was .366. He wasn't a power hitter, but he wasn't a weak singles hitter either.




i could not fault someone for choosing eddied collins. he was a great player.. but to suggest fox = clayton and collins = arod is ... well, it's just plain stupid. fox hit over .290 8 times! collins did it 10 times (as a sox player).
in addition fox was always considered one of the best clutch hitters in the game.

I'm not really comparing Nellie to Clayton. Here's my point: why take a strictly defensive player (Fox) when you can take a good defensive and great offensive player (Collins)?


while i'll give you collins was a bigger hitter ... i'll still take fox as my second baseman!

I could see why people would take Fox. Agree to disagree I guess.

Pete Ward
09-04-2002, 06:45 PM
I cant believe Im not getting more votes!

You guys probably think Hansen and Buford arent a good DP combo!

:gulp:

nut_stock
09-05-2002, 04:06 PM
Wasn't Buck Weaver a third baseman? Can we vote for banned ballplayers?

MarkEdward
09-05-2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by nut_stock
Wasn't Buck Weaver a third baseman? Can we vote for banned ballplayers?

He only played about 430 games at 3rd. I don't see how he was better than Ventura anyway.

Nellie_Fox
09-07-2002, 12:08 AM
Where's the love for Bubba Phillips at third?