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View Full Version : Jerry Manuel vs Mark Buehrle


ChiSoxBobette
08-28-2002, 07:48 AM
What was up with JM last night against the bluejays. Why not let Buehrle go out for the 10th so he at least has a chance to get his 17th win. Even on WhiteSox.com they said that when Manuel took Buehrle out Mark was showing Manuel the pitch counter and he only threw 100 pitches, Buehrle then made the statement that Cooper and I think he said Nosek were in favor of Mark pitching the 10th but Manuel took him out. Can anyone tell me why at this time of the year and the position we're in Manuel would'nt let Buehrle try and get his 17th win?
JM is an idiot plain & simple one of the only bright spots for our team this year has been Mark Buehrle and to stop him from being the only 17 game winner since Brit Burns well I really don't know what the thinking behind that move was. Does Mark get some kind of bonus or something if he reached that amount of wins ...maybe Manuel was given orders from KW.
:?: :?: :?:

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-28-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
What was up with JM last night against the bluejays. Why not let Buehrle go out for the 10th so he at least has a chance to get his 17th win. Even on WhiteSox.com they said that when Manuel took Buehrle out Mark was showing Manuel the pitch counter and he only threw 100 pitches, Buehrle then made the statement that Cooper and I think he said Nosek were in favor of Mark pitching the 10th but Manuel took him out. Can anyone tell me why at this time of the year and the position we're in Manuel would'nt let Buehrle try and get his 17th win?
JM is an idiot plain & simple one of the only bright spots for our team this year has been Mark Buehrle and to stop him from being the only 17 game winner since Brit Burns well I really don't know what the thinking behind that move was. Does Mark get some kind of bonus or something if he reached that amount of wins ...maybe Manuel was given orders from KW.
:?: :?: :?:

Jerry Manuel can take his pitch count and stuff it right up his ass! I think he has someone doing the counting for him because I don't think this idiot can even count to 10 let alone 100. Maybe if we pay roycie enough money we can get him to start crying or something so daddy will be distracted and guys like Burhle won't get screwed by this jackass.

RedPinStripes
08-28-2002, 08:47 AM
I didn't see the game last night. I take it Mark didn't get the win? Who did?

duke of dorwood
08-28-2002, 08:50 AM
Osuna earned the win

voodoochile
08-28-2002, 09:00 AM
:KW
"If we let him win 20, we have to pay him more money."

:reinsy
"Hey that rhymed. Another example of why KW is the best GM for my wallet... er... the White Sox (Is that how you say it?)"

:KW
"Stupid fans. This is all your fault. I'm going help JR shut down the game, because he promised me a $10,000 bonus if he makes an extra $5 million within 2 years."

:reinsy
"(laughing) You go, Kenny. Honestly, what do these idiotic fans expect? They can't really expect me to pay a 20 game winner now can they?"

:KW
"Got that right, JR. They suck and don't deserve a winner until they come out to watch the crappy teams. Like my momma used to say, no dessert until you clean the scraps off the floor... er... plate."

:reinsy
"Your Momma didn't raise no fool. Too bad the fans had such lousy parents or else this wouldn't be ALL THEIR FAULT!"

RedPinStripes
08-28-2002, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Osuna earned the win

Why don't KW just make Mark's contract for St. Louis now?
Manuel has no clue of how to handle an ace. 100 pitch count bull****! :angry:

:burly
It's all good. I'll be laughin this off in a few years when i play in my home town as the ace of the staff.

hold2dibber
08-28-2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND


Jerry Manuel can take his pitch count and stuff it right up his ass! I think he has someone doing the counting for him because I don't think this idiot can even count to 10 let alone 100. Maybe if we pay roycie enough money we can get him to start crying or something so daddy will be distracted and guys like Burhle won't get screwed by this jackass.

If you don't believe that pitch counts are the be-all and end-all, then you might want to think about whether Manuel may have taken him out for some other reason; maybe he noticed (or the catcher told him) that Buehrle's stuff was not as sharp, maybe his location was starting to be off, etc., etc. If Manuel took Buehrle out because he was at 100 pitches, that is yet further proof that Manuel is an idiot. But the Trib didn't really give Manuel's reason for taking him out, and, while I would like to have seen Buehrle go out for the 10th and get the win, if there was some reason to think Buehrle was tired or didn't have his best stuff any more, or might have risked injury going back out there, then I have no problem with the decision.

ChiSoxBobette
08-28-2002, 09:53 AM
I could also understand it if they saw something that said Buehrle was'nt looking right , but according to whitesox.com Cooper & Nosek were also on Buehrle's side.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

voodoochile
08-28-2002, 10:03 AM
I could also understand it if they saw something that said Buehrle was'nt looking right , but according to whitesox.com Cooper & Nosek were also on Buehrle's side.

You have to wonder what is going through JM's head right now. Is he completely under KW's thumb? Is he trying to get fired? How much is Kenny dictating what happens in the dugout. There have been some comments on this in the past couple of days after the Jimenez start, but honestly this whole situation is looking more and more fishy.

The Sox appear totally rudderless and it really doesn't look good for the next few years unless they can somehow work a miracle, but if KW does that, it truly will be a miracle. Is JM trying to get fired by looking like a jamoke, or is he toeing the company line and hoping for an extension?

RedPinStripes
08-28-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
I could also understand it if they saw something that said Buehrle was'nt looking right , but according to whitesox.com Cooper & Nosek were also on Buehrle's side.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

***? I thought the pitching coach has the final say if he's done?

:burly
I'M SUROUNDED BY IDIOTS!

ode to veeck
08-28-2002, 11:48 AM
But the Trib didn't really give Manuel's reason for taking him out, and, while I would like to have seen Buehrle go out for the 10th and get the win, if there was some reason to think Buehrle was tired or didn't have his best stuff any more, or might have risked injury going back out there, then I have no problem with the decision.

I would OK with this line of thought, but thinking back to JM's pattern of bone headed pitching changes this season, I have absolutely zero confidence that any of these things were true or JM's move was in any way possible that well thought out

As for KW not getting Mark to 20 wins to save $$ , the only money he's saving is in St. Louis, where Mark wants to go, or Yank-me-land or Atlanta or D-backs, where the ownership understands the key to successful team / core lies in having a stable of extremely good pitching ...

... while we Sox Fanatics suffer through the hard facts that JR doesn't have a clue in this regard and doesn't secure good pitchers on long term contracts. In actual fact, he insults Burly-mon even as he already was showing his potential in the 01-02 offseason $$ situation (guaranteed to not renew with Sox now or ever)... just like he insults the fans at every "biz opportunity"

Until we have a management change up to through the managing partner, or JR gets hit by lightning and sees the light--the Sox will go nowhere very special, i.e. they might be able to get to the playoffs every 10 years, but win in the post season--that's not gonna happen (as much as we all root for it) ...

... while in the meantime, JR's insults to the fans and total lack of effective PR continue to erode the Sox fans base, continuing the steady decline of JR's 20 years

Paulwny
08-28-2002, 12:34 PM
I guess you need to be old and out of shape to throw > 100 pitches, last night :
David Wells-- 129
Chuck Finley-- 112

jlh221fan
08-28-2002, 01:05 PM
Sure, Buehrle could have pitched 1 more inning. Can't you just enjoy a nice comeback win instead of whining about who won the game?

RedPinStripes
08-28-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by jlh221fan
Sure, Buehrle could have pitched 1 more inning. Can't you just enjoy a nice comeback win instead of whining about who won the game?


Not when the manager is a complete idiot.

Jerry_Manuel
08-28-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You have to wonder what is going through JM's head right now. Is he completely under KW's thumb? Is he trying to get fired? How much is Kenny dictating what happens in the dugout. There have been some comments on this in the past couple of days after the Jimenez start, but honestly this whole situation is looking more and more fishy.

All of his guys are being replaced by Williams guys, and he's the next to go. Like sharks surrounding their dinner really.

hold2dibber
08-28-2002, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


All of his guys are being replaced by Williams guys, and he's the next to go. Like sharks surrounding their dinner really.

Which is just great news, seeing how well Williams' guys (i.e., Ward and Pettis) have fared.

ChiSoxBobette
08-28-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by jlh221fan
Sure, Buehrle could have pitched 1 more inning. Can't you just enjoy a nice comeback win instead of whining about who won the game?
Nobody is whining and coming back and winning is great but these are the thing that turn off a young player like Buehrle from wanting to stay in Chicago it can only make him think that Manuel has no confidence in him closing down a team - if you remember back earlier in the year against the Yankees manuel did the same thing with mark and took him out when he was winning and we ended up with the bullpen blowing it and in my opinion that was the begining of the end of the sesaon WHEN THE PLAYERS LOST ALL CONFIDENCE IN MANUELS DECISIONS

WhiteSox = Life
08-29-2002, 04:46 AM
I agree that Buehrle should've stayed in, but none of us know how he tired he really was when JM told him he was done. After the first two innings, he was lights out. Could he have pitched a scoreless 10th? Maybe. Like I said, none of us know.

The fact remains that Jerry Manuel is simply not managerial material. (Be ready for the word "pitch" a lot) Unless I'm mistaken, the pitching coach is the one who decides if a pitcher should stay in the game or not, and the manager usually listens to what the pitching coach says, because, well - it doesn't take a genius to figure it out - because he's a pitching coach and is in charge of the pitching of the pitchers.

:jerry
"Oh, give me a break here. We all know there are many overrated things in baseball: pitching coaches, bench coaches, defense..."


Originally posted by ode to veeck


JR gets hit by lightning and sees the light

And then, one fateful day out in Comiskey Park...

http://whyfiles.org/071questions/images/lightning.gif

:reinsy
"New feelings overcoming Reinsy! Have urge to care!! Must fight it!!! Auugh!!!!"

Later,at a press conference...

:reinsy
"Greetings, members of the Press. You may be wondering why I've called you here today. Well, there's a huge reason. People, via misconceptions, have called me a "tight-wad"; a "Scrooge"; a "cheap-ass" if you will. Well, it's finally time to clear up all those myths that surround my magnificent aura. From now on, I will do everything in my power to guarantee that the Chicago White Sox will soon be heralded as World Series Champions! Point C, here we come! Thank you!"

:sox
"Hallelejah!"



:reinsy
"Just kidding. I was just trying to get your attention. Now, I shall turn the floor over to my incredibly gifted and very competent General Manager, Ken Williams."

:KW
"Okay. Now, to address that trade involving Konerko, Maggs and Buehrle..."

And, there you have it White Sox fans: even a direct message from God could not change JR's ways. As long as Reinsdorf lives, we, too, White Sox fans, will have to live with the knowledge and acceptance that the Chicago White Sox cannot prosper under Reinsdorf conditions.

But, that is where we are separated from other fans. We choose to accept reality. We cannot fight the present. All we can do is hope: hope for a better future; one where Comiskey Park is decoratively adorned with many white & black flags promulgating the Chicago White Sox are, indeed, World Series Champions.

kermittheefrog
08-29-2002, 08:04 AM
Yeah! Let's all bitch about Manuel not being like Bruce Kimm and running his young ace out for 135 pitches when you are already well out of the race! I think Buehrle should throw AT LEAST 130 pitches per start from here on out!

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Yeah! Let's all bitch about Manuel not being like Bruce Kimm and running his young ace out for 135 pitches when you are already well out of the race! I think Buehrle should throw AT LEAST 130 pitches per start from here on out!

He barly had 100 pitches.

kermittheefrog
08-29-2002, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


He barly had 100 pitches.

It's still a meaningless game longterm and he averages over 100 pitches a start. Can you give me one legit reason to leave him in other than getting his 17th win? Is that actually more important to the team than protecting his arm? It's not like he came out after 80 pitches.

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


It's still a meaningless game longterm and he averages over 100 pitches a start. Can you give me one legit reason to leave him in other than getting his 17th win? Is that actually more important to the team than protecting his arm? It's not like he came out after 80 pitches.

Yeah, he averages about 104. I 'm completly against this pitch count crap. If you want to defend the "new age handleing of pitching staff's ," go ahead. Seems to be many more arm problems today then there was in the past. If a pitcher's max is 100 pitches , wouldn't the arm start to get tired after 80 ? It would make sense. The games are meaningless, but i can't stand the way Manuel follows the idiots book of managing. I'm glad he let Garland finish it up yesterday though.

voodoochile
08-29-2002, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Yeah, he averages about 104. I 'm completly against this pitch count crap. If you want to defend the "new age handleing of pitching staff's ," go ahead. Seems to be many more arm problems today then there was in the past. If a pitcher's max is 100 pitches , wouldn't the arm start to get tired after 80 ? It would make sense. The games are meaningless, but i can't stand the way Manuel follows the idiots book of managing. I'm glad he let Garland finish it up yesterday though.

Are there really more arm injuries today, or just more reporting of arm injuries? There are also twice as many pitchers in the game today as there were in 1970. So, one would expect more injuries. Especially since a bunch of the pitchers today wouldn't even be prospects in 1970. Weaker pitchers = more injuries, IMO.

I do agree that using pitch count as the sole means of removing a pitcher is a weak argument though...

kermittheefrog
08-29-2002, 08:28 AM
Say what you want about pitch counts but very few guys can run up high pitch counts and stay healthy. Do you want to tell me it was just a coincidence that AJ Burnett went down, the good young Marlins pitcher who just happened to lead the majors in starts of more than 122 pitches. Work a young pitcher hard and he's gonna blow out. Garland has stayed healthy under Manuel's approach. You haven't seen Kip Wells go under the knife for TJ surgery (he's being handled carefully in Pit also). You think Buehrle should have gone out for the 10th eh? Well while I don't think it would have been particularly damaging I'd rather see our guy play it safe when we are 8 miles out of contention and I want to see Jerry fired anyway.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2002, 08:36 AM
I really don't understand the significance is of Buehrle getting his 17th win. I thought the idea was to win 20 games.

If Buehrle fails to win 20 this season, it won't be because he wasn't allowed to pitch the tenth inning in yesterday's game.

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Say what you want about pitch counts but very few guys can run up high pitch counts and stay healthy. Do you want to tell me it was just a coincidence that AJ Burnett went down, the good young Marlins pitcher who just happened to lead the majors in starts of more than 122 pitches. Work a young pitcher hard and he's gonna blow out. Garland has stayed healthy under Manuel's approach. You haven't seen Kip Wells go under the knife for TJ surgery (he's being handled carefully in Pit also). You think Buehrle should have gone out for the 10th eh? Well while I don't think it would have been particularly damaging I'd rather see our guy play it safe when we are 8 miles out of contention and I want to see Jerry fired anyway.

There are a lot more pitchers these days in baseball, but they make this huge effort to save pitchers arms and i t's just not happening. Back in the day, there wasno such thing as a 5 man rotaion and 100 pitch count. With the exception of guys like Kofax , there were many great pitchers who lasted a long time without all this text book ****.

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I really don't understand the significance is of Buehrle getting his 17th win. I thought the idea was to win 20 games.

If Buehrle fails to win 20 this season, it won't be because he wasn't allowed to pitch the tenth inning in yesterday's game.

I was rooting for it just for the small chance of there being baseball next week. (If Mark ends up with 18 wins if they play.)
I can think of 2 off the top of my head that manuel took away from Mark. We haven't seen a 20 game winner since McDowell. That's why it bothers me.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I was rooting for it just for the small chance of there being baseball next week. (If Mark ends up with 18 wins if they play.)
I can think of 2 off the top of my head that manuel took away from Mark. We haven't seen a 20 game winner since McDowell. That's why it bothers me.

I can see your point. I believe most 20-game winners had a few slip through their fingers along the way through no fault of their own. It would be a real shame that Buehrle lost his opportunity because the last month's worth of games were wiped out because of a strike. :(:

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I can see your point. I believe most 20-game winners had a few slip through their fingers along the way through no fault of their own. It would be a real shame that Buehrle lost his opportunity because the last month's worth of games were wiped out because of a strike. :(:

I was watching the local news and saw reporters all over the tool selig. I heard several fans yelling in anger in teh back ground. "you strike you'll never get a cent from me
!!!!!!!!"

I can just imagine the black eye baseball will get over this. It will be much worse then 94.

ChiSoxBobette
08-29-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


It's still a meaningless game longterm and he averages over 100 pitches a start. Can you give me one legit reason to leave him in other than getting his 17th win? Is that actually more important to the team than protecting his arm? It's not like he came out after 80 pitches.

Oh yeah this pitch count thing really helps makes these pitchers arms stronger, Hmmm what about Jim Parque, Mike Sirotka, Antonio Osuna, John Rausch, Bill Simas and the list go's on. In the past you had pitchers like Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Sandy Kofax, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan and that list go's on & on who pitched a ton more innings than these young pitchers do and how many of them had arm problems like they do today. Thats the problem, I can see when these guys are very young and starting out on the major team you want to build their arm strength up but now we have guys pitching 2/3 years who managers are still using a pitch count on. This winter we'll hear that Mark Buehrle has a torm labrum(god forbid)and then what do we blame that on seeing that we have the guy and this pitch count crap!
Go White Sox!!!!!!

RedPinStripes
08-29-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob


Oh yeah this pitch count thing really helps makes these pitchers arms stronger, Hmmm what about Jim Parque, Mike Sirotka, Antonio Osuna, John Rausch, Bill Simas and the list go's on. In the past you had pitchers like Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Sandy Kofax, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan and that list go's on & on who pitched a ton more innings than these young pitchers do and how many of them had arm problems like they do today. Thats the problem, I can see when these guys are very young and starting out on the major team you want to build their arm strength up but now we have guys pitching 2/3 years who managers are still using a pitch count on. This winter we'll hear that Mark Buehrle has a torm labrum(god forbid)and then what do we blame that on seeing that we have the guy and this pitch count crap!
Go White Sox!!!!!!

Kofax had a short career, but i agree with everything else you posted.

kermittheefrog
08-29-2002, 09:03 PM
Whatever guys. I've seen a study that looked at pitch counts and the researchers (Baseball Prospectus) found pitchers tend to perform worse shortly after high pitch count outtings (122 or more) and that pitchers with the highest work loads are more likely to suffer an injury that keeps them out for at least a month of the season. Now someone might ignorantly say the research was biased somehow but what the hell would they personally get out of proving pitch counts work? They just want useful information, and one of their crew was hired by the Blue Jays to join their front office.

The thing is pitchers get hurt anyway because throwing a baseball is an unnatural action. I think it makes the most sense to be careful when the guy is young because if he really has talent you don't want to help get him hurt. Sure there were guys like Seaver and Ryan but we still have horses like Clemens and Johnson. They are few and far between. It's not like a lack of pitch counts kept Don Gullet from getting hurt.

As for the 5 man rotation? I don't like it, it's easier to find 4 good starters than 5 and I've seen evidence that it really doesn't wear pitchers down more and that it's high pitch count outtings not frequent usage that hurts starting pitchers.

Daver
08-29-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


The thing is pitchers get hurt anyway because throwing a baseball is an unnatural action. I think it makes the most sense to be careful when the guy is young because if he really has talent you don't want to help get him hurt. Sure there were guys like Seaver and Ryan but we still have horses like Clemens and Johnson. They are few and far between. It's not like a lack of pitch counts kept Don Gullet from getting hurt.



That backs up Tommy John's theory that pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough.Get these guys on a regular routine of throwing everyday,as well as running every day,and you build the arm strength that makes pitch counts a more remote reality.The fact is,coaches don't have these guys throwing enough.

Mathew
08-30-2002, 01:58 AM
I forgot when it was a forgone conclusion that this team would win in the bot 10th? Burly could have lost the game or better yet it could have pitched a meaningless 10th in a 14 inning game? If Blowsuna had come in a s*** the bed then this thread might, (accent on the word might) have merrit, but come on.

RedPinStripes
08-30-2002, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
I forgot when it was a forgone conclusion that this team would win in the bot 10th? Burly could have lost the game or better yet it could have pitched a meaningless 10th in a 14 inning game? If Blowsuna had come in a s*** the bed then this thread might, (accent on the word might) have merrit, but come on.

99 pitches after the 9th. 1 more inning would have killed him. Manuel just pisses me off with all his text book ****.