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DrCrawdad
08-27-2002, 10:10 AM
The Cubs and the Sox have made a few trades recently. Iíve heard that some feel that Hendry is a genius for his two trades and KW is a goat because of his deals. Iím wondering what my fellow Sox fans think about the two teams trades in comparison.

Jeff Fassero to Cards for 2 PTBNL.
Tom Gordon to Astros for LHP Russ Rohlicek & 2 PTBNL.

Howry to Red Sox for RHP Frankie Francisco & LHP Byeong Hak An.
Lofton to Giants for RHP Felix Diaz & LHP Ryan Meaux.
Alomar to Rockies for RHP Enemencio Pacheco.
Durham to Aís for RHP Jon Adkins.

WhiteSox = Life
08-27-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
The Cubs and the Sox have made a few trades recently. Iíve heard that some feel that Hendry is a genius for his two trades and KW is a goat because of his deals. Iím wondering what my fellow Sox fans think about the two teams trades in comparison.

Jeff Fassero to Cards for 2 PTBNL.
Tom Gordon to Astros for LHP Russ Rohlicek & 2 PTBNL.

Howry to Red Sox for RHP Frankie Francisco & LHP Byeong Hak An.
Lofton to Giants for RHP Felix Diaz & LHP Ryan Meaux.
Alomar to Rockies for RHP Enemencio Pacheco.
Durham to Aís for RHP Jon Adkins.

Right now it's tough to tell how the players each team will get will perform or if they will ever be used on the clubs' respective Major League teams, but I'm going to have to give the edge to the Cubs. Note: I'm not going to name names as I don't know much about all these minor league players, but I'll analyze the moves, nonetheless, all for your viewing pleasure.

Both clubs went for the whole "Addition by Subtraction" motto. The White Sox traded Howry, who was starting to throw better, but was taking up salary as was Alomar. In return - three minor league players, all pitchers.

The White Sox traded Lofton, who was just a failed experiment, for a couple of minor league players also, both pitchers. White Sox benefited from this trade since they lost nothing and might've gained something.

Durham is the most controversial move, IMO. Ray was performing like an All-Star when he was traded and all the White Sox got out of him was a RHP. For Lofton and Howry, two pitchers were gotten, and for Alomar, one pitcher was gotten, but that was an even swap.

Whether Ray was on the market for only the A's is really not known. There's plenty of speculation and after-thoughts, but who's to say if anyone else was in the market for Durham?

So, basically, 2 Good Moves (Lofton and Howry), 1 maybe (Alomar), and 1 that's more Bad than anything else (Durham).

Ahhh... now the Flubs. First of all, getting rid of that self-proclaiming "Best closer in baseball" Gordon was not a bad move. He was doing nothing for the Flubs except keeping the bench warm.

For Gordon, the Astros gave up an LHP and two players to be named later. But, there's a clause. If there is a strike, the Astros keep the PTBNL and the Flubs wind up with only the lefty. Nice gesture on the Flubs part, but we'll see how smart of a move that winds up being.

Jeff Fassero I was sad to see go, because he would consistently come in and pitch lights out for the Flubs. As in the gopher balls he gave up would often turn the lights off for the Flubs' hopes of winning the game. IMO, getting rid of Fassero for any minor league talent is a positive.

So, for the Cubs, 1 Good Move (Fassero). And the other one, is a draw for now. If the Cubs get 3 players for Gordon, then it's a good move and Cubs win the "trade war", but if the Cubs only get one player in return for Gordon, it's a lot closer call between the teams.

After examining the results of the trades and doing my best without having to delve into a bunch of stats, all I can say for sure is that:

The Chicago Cubs and the Chicago White Sox could be run better by a hobo with a 3-wheeled shopping cart and a bottle of vodka. The vodka, of course, being in one of those brown paper bags, which is what fans of the professional Chicago baseball teams might want to wear when going out to cheer their favorite team.

voodoochile
08-27-2002, 12:18 PM
How often does a PTNBL turn out to be a stud? Has that ever happened? Those type of players normally turn out to be A-ball lifers it seems. Can anyone name a PTBNL who actually made it to the bigs?

RedPinStripes
08-27-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How often does a PTNBL turn out to be a stud? Has that ever happened? Those type of players normally turn out to be A-ball lifers it seems. Can anyone name a PTBNL who actually made it to the bigs?

Who's teh guy we got for Perry? He's not doing bad if i'm not mistaken.

doublem23
08-27-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Who's teh guy we got for Perry? He's not doing bad if i'm not mistaken.

We got Corey Lee, a lefty... here are his numbers from Charlotte for the season thus far.

W L SV ERA G IP H R ER BB KO HR
7 6 0 3.89 38 111.0 130 54 48 37 92 12

Nothing spectacular, but not bad.

VeeckAsInWreck
08-27-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How often does a PTNBL turn out to be a stud? Has that ever happened? Those type of players normally turn out to be A-ball lifers it seems. Can anyone name a PTBNL who actually made it to the bigs?

The Sox and Cubs each made one that I can think of off the top of my head.

The Sox and Yankees made a deal in 1977 where the Sox sent Bucky Dent for Oscar Gamble and a PTBNL.
Bucky Dent went on to win World Series titles in 1977 & 1978 with New York

Oscar Gamble hit 31 HR's for the 1977 South Side Hitmen and fled to San Diego via free agency the following year.

The PTBNL turned out to be 1983 AL Cy Young award winner LaMarr Hoyt.

As far as the sCrUB deal, I only know about this one because the Cubune would bring it up a lot but in 1982 the sCrUBS made a somewhat good deal with the Phillies

Phillies get Ivan DeJesus for Larry Bowa and a "player to be named later" that player was Ryne Sandberg.

DeJesus helped the Phillies get to the World Series in 1983 (they should have faced the Sox that year)

Larry Bowa played for 2 seasons with the Cubs. his "leadership" helped the sCrUBS win their division in 1984. But his leadership wasn't enough to stop them from choking in the NLCS! :D:

Sandberg won the NL MVP in 1984 and it was all downhill after that. :D:

RedPinStripes
08-27-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How often does a PTNBL turn out to be a stud? Has that ever happened? Those type of players normally turn out to be A-ball lifers it seems. Can anyone name a PTBNL who actually made it to the bigs?

Take it back Voodoo!!!!!! :D:

voodoochile
08-27-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck


The Sox and Cubs each made one that I can think of off the top of my head.

The Sox and Yankees made a deal in 1977 where the Sox sent Bucky Dent for Oscar Gamble and a PTBNL.
Bucky Dent went on to win World Series titles in 1977 & 1978 with New York

Oscar Gamble hit 31 HR's for the 1977 South Side Hitmen and fled to San Diego via free agency the following year.

The PTBNL turned out to be 1983 AL Cy Young award winner LaMarr Hoyt.

As far as the sCrUB deal, I only know about this one because the Cubune would bring it up a lot but in 1982 the sCrUBS made a somewhat good deal with the Phillies

Phillies get Ivan DeJesus for Larry Bowa and a "player to be named later" that player was Ryne Sandberg.

DeJesus helped the Phillies get to the World Series in 1983 (they should have faced the Sox that year)

Larry Bowa played for 2 seasons with the Cubs. his "leadership" helped the sCrUBS win their division in 1984. But his leadership wasn't enough to stop them from choking in the NLCS! :D:

Sandberg won the NL MVP in 1984 and it was all downhill after that. :D:

Thanks for the info. I would bet these instances are rare and that 95%+ of PTBNL don't make it to the majors, ever...

voodoochile
08-27-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Take it back Voodoo!!!!!! :D:

Okay, so it happened. I was wrong. I wasn't really expecting that it had never happened, but I would still bet it is very rare...

RedPinStripes
08-27-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Okay, so it happened. I was wrong. I wasn't really expecting that it had never happened, but I would still bet it is very rare...

I didn't expect anyone to give that many examples that quick. lol

Daver
08-27-2002, 04:09 PM
The sCrUBS only get the other two PTBNL from Houston if there is no strike,if the players strike they get nothing.

RedPinStripes
08-27-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
The sCrUBS only get the other two PTBNL from Houston if there is no strike,if the players strike they get nothing.

Why is that?

VeeckAsInWreck
08-27-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I didn't expect anyone to give that many examples that quick. lol

Tee Hee! (blushing) :(: sorry Vodoo!

I also found another one, On 12/5/1977 the Sox traded Brian Downing, Chris Knapp and David Frost (he was a Pitcher, not the British talk show host) to the California Angels for Bobby Bonds, Thad Bosley and a "PTBNL".

Unfortunately, Bobby Bonds didn't leave his son to play for the Sox.

Thad Bosley? wasn't he the dad on "Happy Days"? Oh well!

The player to be named later turned out to be Rich Dotson, who went 22-7 3.23 ERA for the 1983 White Sox.

Just thought I should throw that one in too! :D:

Daver
08-27-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Why is that?

It was the agreement made between the two teams at the time of the trade.

RedPinStripes
08-27-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by daver


It was the agreement made between the two teams at the time of the trade.

Well the flubbies got the shaft there! HA! I still don't know why the Cards wanted Fasero? They're above that.

Vsahajpal
08-27-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Well the flubbies got the shaft there! HA! I still don't know why the Cards wanted Fasero? They're above that.

I don't think that's the case; think about it, if there's a strike, the Astros traded a 22 y/o LHP (Russ Rohlicek, recently named in Baseball America's top 25 LHP prospects, btw) for 1 week of Flash Gordon (and he's already cost them a game). If the strike is avoided, the Cubs receive 2 more players in exchange for 6 weeks of Gordon. Moreover, Gordon has said he'd like to return to Chicago (since he wants to be a closer, and Wagner's got that role locked up), and more than likely, free agent comp will be nixed.

I quite like the deal.

DrCrawdad
08-27-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal

...I quite like the deal.

VIC, what did you think of the deals that everyone's favorite KW made? I don't know if I've read your opinion on those deals.

- DrCrawdad.

Vsahajpal
08-27-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


VIC, what did you think of the deals that everyone's favorite KW made? I don't know if I've read your opinion on those deals.

- DrCrawdad.

Well, he gave away Ray Durham, that was a bad trade. I was one of the few guys who actually appreciated Durham on this board; he will never be confused for a gold glove 2b, but offensively he's been in the upper echelon of 2b for some time now. If the Sox can justify paying Clayton and Valentin 9.5 million, I believe they could have kept Durham.

Now it seems they felt they had a viable replacement (maybe 2 or 3) for Durham (in Harris and Hummel), so shaving 6 million from payroll may help them (if they spend it wisely), but it remains to be seen whether Harris can provide the production that Ray did.


I'm indifferent in regards to the Howry deal, they got a live-armed Domincan coming off of elbow surgery, and a soft-tossing 22 y/o LHP. Francisco hasn't done much at W-S, and his ceiling is probably similar to a guy like Barcelo.

They got another fringe prospect in the Alomar deal, here's the report I have on Pacheco

Enemencio Pacheco started for Winston Salem. He's a small righty with a 94 MPH fastball, so he's not worth writing off completely. He's extremely raw, though. His fastball is flat and pretty easy to hit. His slider has marginal movement, and his command is shaky. His mechanics are stiff, and he's got the height disadvantage working against him. He's got a lot of work to do if he's going to make the show. Could be a Jose Paniagua type reliever if all goes well.

The Lofton deal was a good one. Diaz has a live arm and doesn't have nearly the control problems as Francisco. He's done well at Birmingham; Meaux has a chance to be a situational reliever.

The best move was acquiring Jimenez for virtually nothing, he can provide a good glove at SS and post a .740-760 OPS.

LongDistanceFan
08-27-2002, 05:56 PM
i am not a fan of the cubs. the recent trades and the trades done in the last 2 yrs has shown that they have a better idea of what needs to be done. last yr acquiring players that were in the last yr of their contract so they can get additional draft picks is a way to use the system that is in place. there supp 1 rounder is a stud. they just improve there farm system which was rated #2.

the recent trades again show what a smart gm can do or get. again this all fall back on kw.

hold2dibber
08-27-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


The best move was acquiring Jimenez for virtually nothing, he can provide a good glove at SS and post a .740-760 OPS.

I'm surprised to hear that you think he can provide a good glove at SS - I have seen others on the board say he is a hack in the field. What gives?

FarmerAndy
08-27-2002, 06:36 PM
I don't think either of the Cubs's deals were bad. Tom Gordon's best days are probably behind him, and Fasserro's best days are without a doubt behind him. They unloaded dead weight, and if any of the kids they got end up being good, it's gravy.

I'm really worried, because right now I believe that the Cubs front office is more competent than the Sox. I have no confidence at all in Kenny Williams. It's a long shot for either team, but if the Cubs put together a winner before the Sox, I'd have to leave town. I couldn't deal with it. Right now, I'd say it's a slight possibility though. The Cubs have a great rotation to build around, and all we have is an incompetent G.M. and an incompetent coaching staff driving this team further into the ground.

I'm scared.

Vsahajpal
08-27-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I don't think either of the Cubs's deals were bad. Tom Gordon's best days are probably behind him, and Fasserro's best days are without a doubt behind him. They unloaded dead weight, and if any of the kids they got end up being good, it's gravy.

I'm really worried, because right now I believe that the Cubs front office is more competent than the Sox. I have no confidence at all in Kenny Williams. It's a long shot for either team, but if the Cubs put together a winner before the Sox, I'd have to leave town. I couldn't deal with it. Right now, I'd say it's a slight possibility though. The Cubs have a great rotation to build around, and all we have is an incompetent G.M. and an incompetent coaching staff driving this team further into the ground.

I'm scared.

I didn't understand the point of this thread, what difference does it make what the Cubs do? It won't effect the Sox situation either way. If the Cubs **** up a trade, will it shed better light on a questionable Sox deal? Or is this based on the media's rxn to the transactions of the city's respective teams? Or am I reading too much into it?



As far as Jimenez, I should say if he improves his footwork he could be an adequate shortstop, I don't think anyone questions his arm or agility. Perhaps I'm wrong, I've seen him play the '6' and I think he could hack it.

LongDistanceFan
08-27-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I didn't understand the point of this thread, what difference does it make what the Cubs do? It won't effect the Sox situation either way. If the Cubs **** up a trade, will it shed better light on a questionable Sox deal?

it is and alway will be base on the rivalry of the 2 clubs. in addition we the fans can really see the stupidity of kw managing compared to that of the cubs in this past yr and half.

if as you say the cubs screws up, it will make kw screws up better to swallow, which we need a little ray of hope.

Daver
08-27-2002, 08:54 PM
Please do not bypass the filters,it will get your post deleted in the future.

LongDistanceFan
08-27-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by daver
Please do not bypass the filters,it will get your post deleted in the future.

i guess that was for me............. so oops

WhiteSox = Life
08-28-2002, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How often does a PTNBL turn out to be a stud? Has that ever happened? Those type of players normally turn out to be A-ball lifers it seems. Can anyone name a PTBNL who actually made it to the bigs?

Actually, a very good PTBNL plays with the Astros right now.

If I recall correctly, Jeff Bagwell was the player to be named later in a trade with the Red Sox. The Astros sent Larry Anderson to the Red Sox and Bagwell was sent to the Astros. I'm not 100% sure if this is correct, but I thought Peter Gammons mentioned it one night on Baseball Tonight.

Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
Thad Bosley? wasn't he the dad on "Happy Days"? Oh well!

The dad was played by Tom Bosley. For those interested in a little bit of Americana, Happy Days had 3 spin-offs. Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy and Joanie Loves Chachi. There might be another one or two (cartoons), but those 3 are the most famous ones.

The cast:

Howard Cunningham (father) was played by Tom Bosley
Marion Cunningham (mother) was played by Marion Ross
Joanie Cunningham (sister) was played by Erin Moran

Richie Cunningham (brother) was played by Ron Howard
Arthur "Fonzie" Fonzarelli (friend) was played by Henry Winkler
Potsie Weber (friend) was played by Anson Williams

Ralph Malph (friend) was played by Donny Most
Chachi Arcola (friend) was played by Scott Baio
Roger (nephew) was played by Ted McGinley

Al (cook) was played by Al Molinaro
Arnold (cook) was played by Pat Morita

Either Al or Arnold owned the place, but I can't remember the name of the restaurant so I don't know. Maybe I'll start watching Happy Days again at... "1, 2, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock rock!" :D: