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View Full Version : Frustrated players take verbal swings at hitting coach Ward


Jerry_Manuel
08-23-2002, 09:17 AM
From the Southtown (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/231sd1.htm):

Just a few things that stood out in my mind.

" 'Stupid' is the best way to sum up those (hitters) meetings," one player said. "It's the same old thing each time. 'This guy has a curveball, this guy likes to do this ' No (bleep). All you have to do is watch tape and figure that out. It's one thing for a coach to actually be busy, but it's another thing to pretend you're busy."

It became obvious during a July 11 trip to Detroit just how some Sox players felt about Ward's meetings.

While Ward was marching through the clubhouse trying to round up his hitters, several players were darting in and out of the players lounge and lunchroom, trying to hide from him.

"Von talked to you, and 'Wardo' talks at you," another player said. "You can only do that for so long. His act has gotten old."

If Joshua and Contreras were fired by Williams because of the performance of the players, should Ward meet the same fate?

"No coach should be fired because of what we're not doing," a Sox player said. "But if that's how they're going to handle it, then be consistent. We all know Ward is tight with Kenny. We were even going to start taking odds on who would be the new manager if Jerry (Manuel) was fired Ward or G.P. (first base coach Gary Pettis, who is also close to Williams)."

CubKilla
08-23-2002, 09:57 AM
Pretty much sums up what alot of us have been saying here all along. It's long overdue for heads to roll. But, if they haven't rolled by now, after another 6 game losing streak, they aren't going to roll any time soon. I think it's funny that when the White Sox bats hit a wall, all Ward and the coaching staff could think of doing was to have daily players meetings. The White Sox may have, at least it seems in the press, the most inept and unqualified coaching staff in baseball.

voodoochile
08-23-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Pretty much sums up what alot of us have been saying here all along. It's long overdue for heads to roll. But, if they haven't rolled by now, after another 6 game losing streak, they aren't going to roll any time soon. I think it's funny that when the White Sox bats hit a wall, all Ward and the coaching staff could think of doing was to have daily players meetings. The White Sox may have, at least it seems in the press, the most inept and unqualified coaching staff in baseball.

It also proves beyond doubt that some of the coaches have been hired because of their friendship with KW and that the players don't respect them as coaches and thus don't really care how the team does. KW has proven to them that friendship is more important than winning. If he doesn't care, why should they? Might explain JM's attitude recently also. Saddled with coaches who got their jobs based on cronyism not ability, one could certainly see how he would stop giving a crap.

This team stinks from the top down...

RedPinStripes
08-23-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


It also proves beyond doubt that some of the coaches have been hired because of their friendship with KW and that the players don't respect them as coaches and thus don't really care how the team does. KW has proven to them that friendship is more important than winning. If he doesn't care, why should they? Might explain JM's attitude recently also. Saddled with coaches who got their jobs based on cronyism not ability, one could certainly see how he would stop giving a crap.

This team stinks from the top down...

Exactly!

Is it me, or does anyone else think that Paul Konerko was one of the spokesmen in that article? Whoever it was, i'm glad they spoke out.

RKMeibalane
08-23-2002, 01:38 PM
This isn't the least bit surprising. I'm sure we all knew it was only a matter of time before this became public. It's obvious that Kenny Williams and his "goons," as I like to call them, are running the show here.

I can imagine how Jerry Manuel must feel. To echo what voodoochile said earlier, it makes sense that JM has given up, because he no longer feels there is any reason to try to win consistently. Furthermore, winning may not even be possible with these morons around.

This could all be solved quickly if JR would get of his rear end and do something. I'm sure if Reinsdorf spoke up, Williams would listen. Think about it. KW has proven that he has no business helping to run a Major League team. This GM job is probably the only one he will ever have. Who else is going to hire him? Everybody in baseball knows he's an idiot.

If Reinsdorf would issue an ultimatum to Williams, I'm sure some things would change. But JR refuses to do anything because he wants to get back at the fans who left after the last strike.

Will this crap ever end?

Foulke You
08-23-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
This isn't the least bit surprising. I'm sure we all knew it was only a matter of time before this became public. It's obvious that Kenny Williams and his "goons," as I like to call them, are running the show here.

I can imagine how Jerry Manuel must feel. To echo what voodoochile said earlier, it makes sense that JM has given up, because he no longer feels there is any reason to try to win consistently. Furthermore, winning may not even be possible with these morons around.

This could all be solved quickly if JR would get of his rear end and do something. I'm sure if Reinsdorf spoke up, Williams would listen. Think about it. KW has proven that he has no business helping to run a Major League team. This GM job is probably the only one he will ever have. Who else is going to hire him? Everybody in baseball knows he's an idiot.

If Reinsdorf would issue an ultimatum to Williams, I'm sure some things would change. But JR refuses to do anything because he wants to get back at the fans who left after the last strike.

Will this crap ever end?

And guess who always pays the piper? Long suffering White Sox fans. How can a team have good chemistry when they don't even respect/like the coaches? This team needs a management enema in the worst way. A World Series seems farther from our grasp then ever before.

Nellie_Fox
08-23-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
KW has proven to them that friendship is more important than winning. If he doesn't care, why should they? Because they're major league athletes, maybe? Athletes are supposed to be competitive by nature. The idea that players wouldn't care whether they win or lose because of their impression of the GM boggles my mind.

voodoochile
08-23-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


And guess who always pays the piper? Long suffering White Sox fans. How can a team have good chemistry when they don't even respect/like the coaches? This team needs a management enema in the worst way. A World Series seems farther from our grasp then ever before.

What's even stranger is the silence from JR over the past few seasons. He was always so vocal when it came to the Bulls and defending Krause. He also got involved directly with the players when it came to contract renewels (though some of those negotiations came out badly *cough*HoraceGrant*cough*).

Now with the Sox, he seems to be content to hire the GM's and let things run their course. I am not sure if that is good or bad, but it certainly puts the lie to his statement about "loving baseball best of all". It proves to me once and for all that all he cares about is money. He was active with the Bulls when they were a huge money generator and the contracts got big. Then he backed his crony Krause in the power struggle and stopped paying attention. With the Sox he has never shown that type of involvement.

:selljerry

RKMeibalane
08-23-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Because they're major league athletes, maybe? Athletes are supposed to be competitive by nature. The idea that players wouldn't care whether they win or lose because of their impression of the GM boggles my mind.

It's not that the players don't care. I think the main problem is that they have not been to focus exclusively on winning because no one understands his role on this team. After all, Manuel continues to tinker with the lineup before each game, so nobody knows where they will hitting in the lineup.

Ken Williams cotinues to do plenty of damage by refusing to let Manuel deal with problems on his own. KW always seesms to stick his nose where it doesn't belong, as evidenced by his tendency to go back Manuel's back and hold meetings with players.

The atmosphere surrounding the team is awful. No one seems to be happy as a result of this season's problems and struggles. It is virtually impossible to win under the circumstances noted above, and by several people on this board. I think the players would rather worry about themselves because it's obvious that they have no control over this situation.

voodoochile
08-23-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Because they're major league athletes, maybe? Athletes are supposed to be competitive by nature. The idea that players wouldn't care whether they win or lose because of their impression of the GM boggles my mind.

So you are saying that just because they are exceptional athletes they are immune from feelings that every other person has when they think their boss doesn't care?

Even if you are correct and they should be able to ignore almost the whole situation, what about their dislike for/distrust of/disbelief in those coaches who are perceived to only have jobs because they are friends with the GM? When the players don't like the hitting or base-running coach and are convinced they only have a job because they are buddies with the GM, it will affect their ability to work with those coaches and in the end, they won't improve and they probably will have a harder time getting out of slumps, IMO.

SI1020
08-23-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Because they're major league athletes, maybe? Athletes are supposed to be competitive by nature. The idea that players wouldn't care whether they win or lose because of their impression of the GM boggles my mind. Have you ever had a job where you were competent at what you did but management had totally contaminated the atmosphere to the point where you hated to get up in the morning? It's one of the main reasons that I fly solo at the moment. You are correct in assuming that the players should care and should go all to win but the imcompetence of ones bosses will always affect the performance of the group. With the White Sox it shows this year.

sox_fan_forever
08-23-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Exactly!

Is it me, or does anyone else think that Paul Konerko was one of the spokesmen in that article? Whoever it was, i'm glad they spoke out.


It's not just you. He was the first person I thought of while reading that.

Foulke You
08-23-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


What's even stranger is the silence from JR over the past few seasons. He was always so vocal when it came to the Bulls and defending Krause. He also got involved directly with the players when it came to contract renewels (though some of those negotiations came out badly *cough*HoraceGrant*cough*).

Now with the Sox, he seems to be content to hire the GM's and let things run their course. I am not sure if that is good or bad, but it certainly puts the lie to his statement about "loving baseball best of all". It proves to me once and for all that all he cares about is money. He was active with the Bulls when they were a huge money generator and the contracts got big. Then he backed his crony Krause in the power struggle and stopped paying attention. With the Sox he has never shown that type of involvement.

:selljerry

You're correct in that Reinsy has been awful quiet in things related to the Sox. I think after his role in the '94 strike and then his prominent part in White Flag of '97 he has tried to lay low because he finally has realized that his words and actions are not liked by White Sox fans and that it adversly effected the team's popularity and attendance. Reinsdorf may be a cheap man who lies through his teeth when he says he wants a championship for the Sox more than anything but he isn't dumb. He cannot ignore his part in the declining fan base and current state of the team and has probably made an effort to lay low and let KW run the show while he quietly pulls the strings in the background out of the limelight.

:reinsy
"I am a master puppeteer. Just call me Godfather"

doublem23
08-23-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Is it me, or does anyone else think that Paul Konerko was one of the spokesmen in that article?

Yes, I thought of that too. Konerko (if it really is him) is starting to get himself into a bad habit of running his mouth to the media.

RKMeibalane
08-23-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Yes, I thought of that too. Konerko (if it really is him) is starting to get himself into a bad habit of running his mouth to the media.

Agreed. Someone should teach Konerko the phrase "No comment."

Jerry_Manuel
08-23-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Agreed. Someone should teach Konerko the phrase "No comment."

This from the same guy who thinks Manuel is playing "his son" all the time.

Williams is pulling all the strings and when he gets his pals in power, it's going to get a lot worse. It's things like this that need to get out, bashing Thomas might be out of line, but it's something that a lot of team players have felt for a while.

yyz
08-23-2002, 06:57 PM
Ward has shown no signs of competence this year, and Pettis has shown no signs of competence ever. I would be despondent if either one were to replace Manuel.

Manuel is not a great manager - I think his 'zen' attitude is fine when the team is winning, but doesn't work when they need a kick in the rear. But hiring a new manager and keeping KW is like a sprinter hiring a new speed coach and ignoring the ball and chain on his leg.

Manuel has not done a great job with what he's been given in the KW era, but it was KW that gave him Royce, Ritchie, Fatass Wells, a bunch of decrepit Indians and Harold Baines at DH.

KW has got to go. I'm not sure what more has to go wrong for that to happen. People talk about Reinsdorf's loyalty, but he was pretty quick to pull the plug on Hawk. Maybe he can bump KW up to the booth to replace DJ.

There was some mention in one of the articles today that Schueler could be promoted to President, but given decision making powers, so KW could stay on as the puppet rather than the puppet master.

Somewhere Dan Evans is laughing. Where? Atop the NL wildcard race, that's where.

Iguana775
08-23-2002, 07:11 PM
maybe it is frank. he is having major troubles this season. so i would conclude that he is getting tired of ward and his poor coaching.

Jerry_Manuel
08-23-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
maybe it is frank. he is having major troubles this season. so i would conclude that he is getting tired of ward and his poor coaching.

I don't think there is anyone outside of Hriniak, that knows how to work with Thomas.

Daver
08-23-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I don't think there is anyone outside of Hriniak, that knows how to work with Thomas.

It is the other way around,Frank will only work with Hriniak.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-23-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by daver


It is the other way around,Frank will only work with Hriniak.

It is hard to imagine just how mentally weak Frank Thomas truly is. He was such a gifted hitter, and he was the absolute best for so many years. In spite of this, he's in danger of being paid like a rookie next year. He fancies himself a sophisticated businessman, but the truth is Reinsdorf pulled a fast one on Frank and his hired representative.

What a shame...

Jerry_Manuel
08-23-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
the truth is Reinsdorf pulled a fast one on Frank and his hired representative.

When is Reinsdorf going to pull a fast one that helps the team?

RKMeibalane
08-23-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


This from the same guy who thinks Manuel is playing "his son" all the time.


That is one of two explanations for the amount of playing time Royce Clayton has received since joining the team. The other has to do with Ken Williams threatening Manuel if he doesn't play the "best defensive shortstop in the American League."

RKMeibalane
08-23-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


When is Reinsdorf going to pull a fast one that helps the team?

:reinsy

"I will, as you put it, pull a 'fast one' that helps the White Sox when people start showing up at games. You people are nothing more than a bunch of spoiled brats. I give you a baseball team, and you don't even go to games. Blah! You make me sick!"