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WhiteSox = Life
08-21-2002, 08:04 PM
SI1020 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=124805#post124805) Got me to thinking of the 1959 World Series in which the White Sox lost to the LA Dodgers (4-2) and about the last time any Chicago team got to the big one. I was wondering, for those who were lucky enough to experience it and have vivid memories of the World Series, what exactly caused the White Sox to lose?

I would really like to know since it was slightly before my time. :smile:

For those who share, I'd prefer feelings on the loss and reasons from the heart why the Chicago White Sox couldn't win. Some statistics would be all right, but please don't inundate me with such frivolity. I believe that, while stats show part of the story, what's inside someone and not in a computer database is what tells the true tale. Such little things that go all but noticeable would be perfect. Stuff like SI1020's post would be wonderful.

Thank you.

Jjav829
08-21-2002, 08:33 PM
Check this out if you haven't already. (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/History&Glory/1959.htm)


Statistically the series was very even but Chicago could not overcome the magnificent relief pitching of Larry Sherry (two wins and two saves) and the timely hitting of the Dodgers

TornLabrum
08-21-2002, 09:59 PM
Reason 1: Al Lopez's refusal to start Billy Pierce at all. (If you come to the Windy City Sox Fans luncheon Friday be sure to ask him about that during the Q&A. (Then ask Ron Kittle about Jerry Dybzinski's bonehead running play.) Lopez started Early Wynn on 2 days rest to avoid starting Pierce.

Reason 2: Tony Cuccinello waving in Sherm Lollar and Lollar being thrown out by 30 feet.

idseer
08-21-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
SI1020 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=124805#post124805) Got me to thinking of the 1959 World Series in which the White Sox lost to the LA Dodgers (4-2) and about the last time any Chicago team got to the big one. I was wondering, for those who were lucky enough to experience it and have vivid memories of the World Series, what exactly caused the White Sox to lose?

I would really like to know since it was slightly before my time. :smile:

For those who share, I'd prefer feelings on the loss and reasons from the heart why the Chicago White Sox couldn't win. Some statistics would be all right, but please don't inundate me with such frivolity. I believe that, while stats show part of the story, what's inside someone and not in a computer database is what tells the true tale. Such little things that go all but noticeable would be perfect. Stuff like SI1020's post would be wonderful.

Thank you.

i was a freshman in high school the fall of '59 and the things that stuck out for me was pierce not starting (he was far and away my favorite pitcher and ended up pitching 4 stinking innings) ......
the explosion of runs in game no. 1 ...... then the air being let out after that. these were the go go sox but in fact aparicio ended up with 1 sb. the sox altogether were outrun by the dodgers, which was a major surprise to me.
and reliever larry sherry was unhittable.
you asked what the 'cause' was and if you had to pick just one thing, it had to be the absence of pierce (and the incredibly bad decision to leave him out of it).
as to how i felt ... it was, of course, disappointing but tempered by the thought that we would take it all the next year (and maybe one or 2 more). the fact is, it's much more disappoining in retrospect. when i really became a fan ('55 or '56) the sox were very competitive and got their shot a couple years later. we had good reason to expect more. who could have ever guessed it would be longer than the 40 year wait the '59 series took?

TornLabrum
08-21-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by idseer


who could have ever guessed it would be longer than the 40 year wait the '59 series took?

After Veeck traded away Batey, Callison, Cash, and Romano? Anybody who took a look at the age of that '59 team and what was left in the farm system.

Paulwny
08-22-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by idseer
[B]

i was a freshman in high school the fall of '59


I also was in hs, soph, what a great year 59 was, even though they lost the series I always thought that winning the pennant was a major, major accomplishment. I don't believe I ever saw an article at the beginning of the season that had the sox finishing higher then 3rd.
Here's my list:
1) A nobody named Larry Sherry becomes unhittable
2) Lollar thrown out at the plate, a very bad decision by Cuccinello
3) Sox running game nonexistant, (Roseboro?)
4) Pierce not starting a game
5) 1st time in a ws, possible jitters
6) this one's a stretch, I often wonder how the Chinese Wall in lf affected the sox right handed hitters who may have adjusted their hitting because the Wall was so inviting.

hold2dibber
08-22-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Reason 1: Al Lopez's refusal to start Billy Pierce at all. (If you come to the Windy City Sox Fans luncheon Friday be sure to ask him about that during the Q&A. (Then ask Ron Kittle about Jerry Dybzinski's bonehead running play. ) Lopez started Early Wynn on 2 days rest to avoid starting Pierce.

Reason 2: Tony Cuccinello waving in Sherm Lollar and Lollar being thrown out by 30 feet.

Hold 2, Dibber!!!!!!!

SI1020
08-22-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


After Veeck traded away Batey, Callison, Cash, and Romano? Anybody who took a look at the age of that '59 team and what was left in the farm system. You know as much about White Sox baseball as anyone I know of so I'm not posting this in the "bashing" mode. Those trades that virtually stripped the Sox of their young talent, that is obvious. Worse, it probably cost the Sox a pennant or two, they were so close in 64 and 67. However, at the time those trades were made some thought the Sox had guaranteed themselves another pennant in 1960. I remember like it was yesterday Frank Lane being quoted as saying "now they have a hell of a team". As for me I was just a klunky little kid in the 4th grade who was overjoyed to have Minnie Minoso back. Having Callison in the outfield, Cash at first and Battey behind the plate would have been great to go along with the pitchers that developed starting in 63.

SI1020
08-22-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
SI1020 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=124805#post124805) Got me to thinking of the 1959 World Series in which the White Sox lost to the LA Dodgers (4-2) and about the last time any Chicago team got to the big one. I was wondering, for those who were lucky enough to experience it and have vivid memories of the World Series, what exactly caused the White Sox to lose?

I would really like to know since it was slightly before my time. :smile:

For those who share, I'd prefer feelings on the loss and reasons from the heart why the Chicago White Sox couldn't win. Some statistics would be all right, but please don't inundate me with such frivolity. I believe that, while stats show part of the story, what's inside someone and not in a computer database is what tells the true tale. Such little things that go all but noticeable would be perfect. Stuff like SI1020's post would be wonderful.

Thank you. One thing I remember is the excitement I had as a kid in the 4th grade that MY team was in the World Series. I remember rushing home from school, the teacher wouldn't let us listen to the game like some of the other kids go to in other rooms . It was great to turn on the old Motorola and see the score. I remember the sinking feeling in game 2 after Lollar got thrown out. You've got to see it, sometimes they show films of old World Series. Anyway, I was only a little 4th grader but I remember distinctly the feeling of dread I had after that game. Then there was the waiting. Game 3, will he start Billy? No. Game 5, Game 6 the same answer both times. What gives? Al Lopez was a great manager and he really showed that from 63-65 when the Sox finished 2nd three straight times and came so close in 64. I mean come on, look at those teams. However Al was thin skinned and played favorites. Early Wynn was a favorite. When he became manager in 57 he made sure he got his boy Early in a trade before the 58 season. Wynn pitched well in game 1 but stunk in games 4 and 6. Wynn was also a loser in a so so outing in the 54 WS for Lopez. It didn't matter, he was Al's boy. After the WS I remember the disappointment but lots of us kids in the school yard felt they would repeat the next year. I never thought for a minute that I needed to hold fast to these memories as they have yet to be repeated.

ode to veeck
08-22-2002, 01:19 PM
After Veeck traded away Batey, Callison, Cash, and Romano? Anybody who took a look at the age of that '59 team and what was left in the farm system.

Let's see now, Veeck's moves got the Sox to their first Series appearance in 40 years. They also won 94 games, which they had done only once in the previous 40 years.

But did he mortgage the future to achieve this? Let's see, the Sox won no fewer than 85 games / year from '59-'65 and finished:

'59 1st
'60 3rd
'61 3rd
'62 4th
'63 2nd
'64 2nd
'65 2nd

while averaging 91.3 wins/season over this span. Unfortunately, the heavily loaded Yankees won every year from '49-'64 with the exceptions of the '54 Tribe and '59 White Sox. People talk about the '67 heartbreak (where the Sox actually finished 3rd), but what about '64, where they won 98 games and finshed one back of the Yank-mes? Maybe you'd argue without Veeck's moves, the Sox woulda finshed ahead of the Yank-mes?! --dunno 'bout that

Folks also point to Veeck's 2nd tenure and how he abused the free agency thing to create the South Side Hit Men, and claim he did nothing for the long term benefit of the team.

In retrospect, the '77 Sox are still one of the most exciting teams ever in the history of the sport, and the core of the 1st divisional winner under JR really was really the young talented pitching staff assembled under Veeck, i.e., guys like Dotson, Burns, Hoyt (though JR's additions of Fisk, Paciorek, Ludzinkski helped too).

It was unfortunate that LaRussa was in '83 (and still is) a poor post season manager (what is he like 1-4 in WS appearances or something), because he had the key for playoff success in '83, i.e., a great pitching staff to go somewhere with. That divisional series was one of the biggest Sox hearbreakers of all time.

soxrme
08-22-2002, 05:30 PM
Just to add my two cents. I will always believe that if Billy Pierce would have pitched the sixth game we would have won the series. Lollar being thrown out at home was horrible as he should have never been sent. But the Senors biggest mistake was Pierce.
Sherry, by the way should have been tested for drugs.