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View Full Version : In Defense of Sox Catchers...


Tragg
07-05-2015, 11:08 AM
Flowers is in the top 10 in pitch framing; Soto is in the top 20.
Sox Catchers are 18th in OPS for Catcher. Every other position is worse than 18th (including 30th at 2b and SS) except for 1B.
Catcher is nowhere near the black hole it is reputed to be.

Lip Man 1
07-05-2015, 11:25 AM
It may not be a black hole but it's a deep crater.

It's pretty bad....especially defensively, those guys have a number of passed balls and have a hard time throwing anybody out stealing.

Pitch framing is just one aspect of the position, an important one to be sure, but only one in the overall picture.

Personally if either of these guys were a top defensive catcher I wouldn't care if they "only" hit .150. To me defense is the most important aspect of that position.

Lip

Tragg
07-05-2015, 12:25 PM
The cause of opponents' steals is hard to measure. Is it on the catcher or on the pitcher?
FWIW, in 2014 Flowers was in the top 10 in CS%.
The passed balls are a big issue, I agree.

I guess when I see below par production at positions easier to fix than catcher, I would suggest looking at those positions first.

Take Middle infield...Sox have a number of guys performing admirably in the middle infield at Charlotte.Sanchez has certainly solidified 2B defensively, but do you try Saladino or Michah there to get a little more O?

soxfanreggie
07-05-2015, 09:10 PM
Flowers is in the top 10 in pitch framing; Soto is in the top 20.
Sox Catchers are 18th in OPS for Catcher. Every other position is worse than 18th (including 30th at 2b and SS) except for 1B.
Catcher is nowhere near the black hole it is reputed to be.

Are you cheering that Flowers and Soto stink less than other Sox players at OPS? I mean I guess for how the Sox are that might be good. It's like saying, "Hey, we're almost in the top half at some offensive category!"

rainbow6
07-05-2015, 10:12 PM
As much as our catching situation is dire, to say the least, I have to say that at this point third base and second are more of a concern.

Gillaspie is rapidly becoming one of the all time worst at the position for the White Sox. Every ball hit to him is a potential adventure and he offers nothing offensively. Every morning I am expecting to see that he has been released, or an announcement of his retirement. I noticed Hawk has been saying "make a good throw..." lately when balls are hit to him - it sounds like he is watching his grand kids play.

It is difficult to imagine Gillaspie playing in the major leagues once he is shown the door. Not to be overdramatic but this is one instance where, as a fan, it can be very easy to get angry with management if they cannot find ANY third baseman that can be even close to average at the position.

I am rooting for Sanchez, hard. I was hoping to have a little rivalry with some Cub fans versus Addison Russell. Hasn't panned out and I'm not sure how many starting second baseman are hitting .160...my guess is none.

So as hard as it is to fathom with the horrific duo we have manning the plate, I would agree that the catcher position is not as high up the list of priorities as we may think.

Tragg
07-05-2015, 10:57 PM
Are you cheering that Flowers and Soto stink less than other Sox players at OPS? I mean I guess for how the Sox are that might be good. It's like saying, "Hey, we're almost in the top half at some offensive category!"
I wouldn't say I'm cheering it.
I'm just pointing out that the Sox have greater priorities. 3B and 2B (there multiple prospects at AAA who could be tried there) are worse, as are, frankly, the outfield spots.
For the price to fix catcher, you could fix 2 other positions (unless you get lucky and make one of these Cervelli for a middle reliever trades).

BainesHOF
07-05-2015, 11:43 PM
How are they measuring pitch framing? It is by pitches that are balls on PitchTrax but called strikes by the umpire? I can believe that Flowers might be doing a decent job in this department, but he's brutal at giving a target (sometimes giving none at all) and horrible overall defensively. The guy often has trouble catching the ball. I suspect he has less than ideal eyesight. That would explain his offensive struggles as well. In any case, I've been following the team since 1972 and Flowers is the worst starting catcher I've seen on the Sox.

PaleHoser
07-05-2015, 11:47 PM
Gillaspie is rapidly becoming one of the all time worst at the position for the White Sox. Every ball hit to him is a potential adventure and he offers nothing offensively. Every morning I am expecting to see that he has been released, or an announcement of his retirement. I noticed Hawk has been saying "make a good throw..." lately when balls are hit to him - it sounds like he is watching his grand kids play.

I can think a few others that have been worse. Orlando Hudson, Mark Teahen, Josh Fields, Greg Norton, and Kenny Williams come to mind.

Regarding Flowers being ranked in the Top 10 of framing pitches, I guess they don't count the pitches that he fails to catch. He has improved recently, but I swear he reacts like he forgot what pitch he called sometimes. And his inability to move to his right cost the Sox and Quintana a 1-0 loss to the Tigers this year. Stone says something along the lines of "a slider in the dirt would get him out here, providing you trust Tyler to block the ball." I'm yelling at the TV "NO!!!!" and sure enough, there goes the slider in the dirt and there it goes up the first base line for the only run of the game.

So given my choice, I'd love to see and upgrade behind the dish before anywhere else simply because I have to watch that guy every single pitch every game.

tstrike2000
07-06-2015, 12:04 AM
As much as our catching situation is dire, to say the least, I have to say that at this point third base and second are more of a concern.

Gillaspie is rapidly becoming one of the all time worst at the position for the White Sox. Every ball hit to him is a potential adventure and he offers nothing offensively. Every morning I am expecting to see that he has been released, or an announcement of his retirement. I noticed Hawk has been saying "make a good throw..." lately when balls are hit to him - it sounds like he is watching his grand kids play.

It is difficult to imagine Gillaspie playing in the major leagues once he is shown the door. Not to be overdramatic but this is one instance where, as a fan, it can be very easy to get angry with management if they cannot find ANY third baseman that can be even close to average at the position.

I am rooting for Sanchez, hard. I was hoping to have a little rivalry with some Cub fans versus Addison Russell. Hasn't panned out and I'm not sure how many starting second baseman are hitting .160...my guess is none.

So as hard as it is to fathom with the horrific duo we have manning the plate, I would agree that the catcher position is not as high up the list of priorities as we may think.

The Sox are at or near the bottom in all of baseball in OBP, runs scored, and slugging percentage. Gillaspie is obviously just one of those guys contributing to that. I thought he would at least be average to above average as a hitter and serviceable at third. His regression, like Alexei, has been really surprising. Gillaspie, Alexei, and Sanchez have to be the worst offensive, infield threesome, in baseball. At least Alexei and Sanchez can play defense. Conor needs to go. Unfortunately, so does about three or four other guys.

Tragg
07-12-2015, 09:01 AM
Flowers OPS .774 the last 30 games; .913 the last 15 games.
Framed 13 pitches into strikes on Friday.

shes
07-12-2015, 10:50 AM
Flowers OPS .774 the last 30 games; .913 the last 15 games.
Framed 13 pitches into strikes on Friday.

He would make a fine backup catcher.

voodoochile
07-12-2015, 11:14 AM
Flowers OPS .774 the last 30 games; .913 the last 15 games.
Framed 13 pitches into strikes on Friday.

Yep was just checking his stats OPS of .830 in June and .870 in July so far. If he can keep it going in the second half he will be the Sox starting catcher for the next few years at least, especially if the pitchers are comfortable with him behind the plate.

Andrew C White
07-12-2015, 08:11 PM
Yep was just checking his stats OPS of .830 in June and .870 in July so far. If he can keep it going in the second half he will be the Sox starting catcher for the next few years at least, especially if the pitchers are comfortable with him behind the plate.

Bite your tongue! Tyler has shown us several mini-streaks where he has hit. But then always reverted to the very poor norm. The Sox remain in need of a serious upgrade at the position.