PDA

View Full Version : *Official* 6/28 ****!!!!!!!!! Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
06-28-2015, 03:10 PM
Fire everybody. Just...fire everybody.

gobears1987
06-28-2015, 03:11 PM
How the hell is Robin Ventura still employed? Do you want to know what a manager loss looks like? You just saw one.

Boondock Saint
06-28-2015, 03:12 PM
:sellreinsy

Been a while since I've seen this guy.

white sox bill
06-28-2015, 03:14 PM
I guess ya just gotta laugh. What a clueless team. They are embarrasing themselves. Yet the powers that be do nothing. Totally inenpt organization

Tragg
06-28-2015, 03:14 PM
That's just beyond pitiful.

Shark wasn't giving up hits; but he wasn't striking anyone out either.

Cooper/Ventura consistently have made the wrong move. Easy to say after the fact, but there is an art to this, and they've lost it.

Lip Man 1
06-28-2015, 03:15 PM
Another blown game with a lead in the 7th inning or later. 4th time in a little over three weeks, 6th time this season.

10 under...and done.

Lip

guillensdisciple
06-28-2015, 03:15 PM
You guys, there's still hope in the wild card!!!!!

Lip Man 1
06-28-2015, 03:18 PM
Victor Martinez, Sox killer to infinity.

Lip

Dan H
06-28-2015, 03:19 PM
I know Shark struck out Cabrera but he should have pulled before that. Not only was his pitch count soaring, he was leaving pitches up and was not able to finish off hitters. Regardless, he should have been pulled after the strike out. The team had a rain out the day before and the bullpen was rested. What was the logic here?

Too bad about Putnam. He appeared to be throwing the ball real well and the home run pitch wasn't all that bad.

amsteel
06-28-2015, 03:25 PM
One outta three in Detroit seems right. Thanks Robin for keeps our expectations intact.

harwar
06-28-2015, 03:27 PM
I know Shark struck out Cabrera but he should have pulled before that. Not only was his pitch count soaring, he was leaving pitches up and was not able to finish off hitters. Regardless, he should have been pulled after the strike out. The team had a rain out the day before and the bullpen was rested. What was the logic here?

Yea, Cabrera was chomping at the bit to get to the plate in that at bat and i think that he actually got himself out .. Samardzija never should have even faced Cabrera or Victor Martinez .. Martinez is one of the most dangerous guys in the league with runners in scoring position.. with the rain out yesterday, and 2 off days coming up next week, Robin shouldn't be hesitant to go to the pen at all right now .. sometime i just don't understand what he might be thinking in that dugout..

LITTLE NELL
06-28-2015, 03:30 PM
You are going to win 60, you are going to lose 60. What you do in the other 40 makes or breaks your season, this was one of those games and we will lose 30 of them. I hate the whole ****ing lot of them except for a few guys, they were leading 4-0, I make a quick run to the store and they are 5-4 losers. When are changes going to be made, what does the brain trust see in Ventura and his staff that we aren't seeing?

SoxSpeed22
06-28-2015, 03:30 PM
I get that the bullpen blew the game Friday, but they had a day off yesterday and plenty of fresh pitchers. Robin has not learned a damned thing in 2+ years and needs to go.

PaleHoser
06-28-2015, 03:32 PM
Leaving the starter in to give up four in the 8th inning after an off day and an off day tomorrow.

The coaching staff is doing a great job. Just ask Kenny. Pffft...

hoosiersoxfan
06-28-2015, 03:36 PM
How come all the fans watching can see the obvious decision is to pull Shark in that situation well beforehand but our manager and pitching coach are clueless? It's as if they aren't even watching the game.

shingo10
06-28-2015, 03:37 PM
Amazing how one close pitch can change a ballgame...

Seriously though the first thing that popped in my head after that game was the Bulls ads from a few years ago where fans pledged their allegiance through "thick and thin." Thick and thin.

infohawk
06-28-2015, 03:38 PM
Glad I made the decision not to watch this one. I checked in using the MLB app. Going into the bottom of the 8th it looked like things were well in hand...until I checked in again.

I've never really been one to "organization" bash, but successful organizations win. Unsuccessful organizations lose. Smarter organizations course correct. The White Sox appear resistant to change. The ownership of the Blackhawks, Cubs, and Bears have embarked on significant organizational overhauls. The Sox continue to meander along and hope that they have improved enough to make the playoffs. Hope turns to disappointment each year. Unless I'm mistaken, that's five playoffs appearances since 1983. That includes many years under an expanded playoff system with more opportunities. That's a 32-year period. Over this period there have been countless bad drafts, bad trades, and free-agent busts. If anyone is looking for an indictment of the organization, simply take an honest look at the long-term track record.

Exit question...what are the St. Louis Cardinals doing compared to the White Sox? The answer to that question could provide a framework for change.

BainesHOF
06-28-2015, 03:38 PM
Samardzija was awesome through seven innings and then tired noticeably in the eighth -- to everyone except Ventura and Cooper. Just brutal managing once again. They both need to go.

Listening to the postgame show now for entertainment. Rongey is calling out the hitters after they scored four runs off Price. Nice timing, Ranger! LOL!!!

Dan H
06-28-2015, 03:40 PM
Hawk was blathering in his usual style by saying how one pitch can make a difference. Samardjia threw a nice pitch on a three-two count to Iglesias but it was clearly a ball. TV replays showed that so how can anyone expect to get a call on something like that?

Instead I'll say what is important about this loss: The team played well for seven plus innings making the most out of its hits and seeing its starting pitcher have the game in hand. Then the bottom falls out and you lose a game you should have won. That is more than demoralizing in a year where everything has gone wrong.

How about another vote of confidence from the front office?

Tragg
06-28-2015, 03:42 PM
Ventura consistently leaves his starters in, until they get killed. He hates pulling a starter during an inning. If it's Danks (usually) or Sale (on occasion) the damage is done before Ventua/Cooper will make a move.
It's ridiculous.

hoosiersoxfan
06-28-2015, 03:44 PM
Ventura consistently leaves his starters in, until they get killed. He hates pulling a starter during an inning. If it's Danks (usually) or Sale (on occasion) the damage is done before Ventua/Cooper will make a move.
It's ridiculous.

And last week Ventura pulled Sale in the 9th with the Sox up 1-0. Sale pitch count wasn't extremely high and he had just easily struck out the side in the 8th. Robertson then gives up 2 runs in the 9th.

It's as if he makes the obviously wrong decision the vast majority of the time.

Boondock Saint
06-28-2015, 03:46 PM
Amazing how one close pitch can change a ballgame...

Seriously though the first thing that popped in my head after that game was the Bulls ads from a few years ago where fans pledged their allegiance through "thick and thin." Thick and thin.

I will love the Sox till the day I die. The bobbleheaded, arrogant, secret-middle-finger-waving ****wits that own and run the team can **** right off, however.

aryzner
06-28-2015, 03:48 PM
Saw that one coming.

SI1020
06-28-2015, 03:53 PM
And last week Ventura pulled Sale in the 9th with the Sox up 1-0. Sale pitch count wasn't extremely high and he had just easily struck out the side in the 8th. Robertson then gives up 2 runs in the 9th.

It's as if he makes the obviously wrong decision the vast majority of the time. As has been stated here before by astute posters, no art or feel for the game.

gobears1987
06-28-2015, 03:57 PM
I never thought I would be fondly remembering the days of Jerry Manuel. Robin makes those days seem like glory days.

soxfanreggie
06-28-2015, 04:01 PM
I know Shark struck out Cabrera but he should have pulled before that. Not only was his pitch count soaring, he was leaving pitches up and was not able to finish off hitters. Regardless, he should have been pulled after the strike out. The team had a rain out the day before and the bullpen was rested. What was the logic here?

Too bad about Putnam. He appeared to be throwing the ball real well and the home run pitch wasn't all that bad.

Robin clearly thinks otherwise. He hit on the not-high pitch count and that they weren't getting anything off of Shark. I didn't think Shark should have stayed in, but they don't pay me to manage. Maybe they should hold open manager tryouts because it doesn't look like we can do much worse.

There was a caller who called it the "Robin Ventura Excuse Show" and that's pretty much it. That or he just doesn't care.

delben91
06-28-2015, 04:02 PM
Just like good teams find a different way to win each game, this team finds a different way to lose each game.

Remarkable, just remarkable.

tstrike2000
06-28-2015, 04:06 PM
I'm starting to think that Robin could have relations with the wives of Jerry, KW, and Hahn and still be employed at Sox manager.

voodoochile
06-28-2015, 04:12 PM
I know Shark struck out Cabrera but he should have pulled before that. Not only was his pitch count soaring, he was leaving pitches up and was not able to finish off hitters. Regardless, he should have been pulled after the strike out. The team had a rain out the day before and the bullpen was rested. What was the logic here?

Too bad about Putnam. He appeared to be throwing the ball real well and the home run pitch wasn't all that bad.

Just to be picky, Shark was actually doing really well with his pitch count until the final inning. He was still only at 110 when he got pulled. He was in his 60s in the 6th and his 80s to start the 8th. the 10 pitch at bat that ended with a single or a walk in that inning might have taken a lot out of him though.

I stand by my assessment that he should have been pulled once the shutout was gone but not before.

Maximo
06-28-2015, 04:20 PM
Other than it was against the Tigers, this loss didn't sting that much.

I am reaching Defcon 1 when it comes to the level of my indifference.

Tragg
06-28-2015, 04:21 PM
Starting the 8th was fine
It pretty soon it was clear he didn't have it.
But this is the way Ventura and Cooper have consistently managed and Ken Williams thinks its quality work, so that's that.

Robbie and Cooper are now 168-230 since the start of 2013.

Dan H
06-28-2015, 04:24 PM
Just to be picky, Shark was actually doing really well with his pitch count until the final inning. He was still only at 110 when he got pulled. He was in his 60s in the 6th and his 80s to start the 8th. the 10 pitch at bat that ended with a single or a walk in that inning might have taken a lot out of him though.

I stand by my assessment that he should have been pulled once the shutout was gone but not before.

I actually think that Samardjia was laboring somewhat in the seventh. I was concerned by the leadoff single in the 8th not because it was a hit but because Shark was staring to leave pitches up when he wasn't before. Once the bases were loaded with no out, it was time to make a change. He seemed to be tiring.

Ventura had a rested bullpen. There was no excuse not using it. After all, the bullpen isn't what it was in 2013.

SI1020
06-28-2015, 04:28 PM
I've never been a big fan of pitch counts. Here is where it works against you. Samardzija didn't have a "high" pitch count so leave him in. Sale is dealing but he has reached his pitch count limit, take him out. Lost both games.

Soxman219
06-28-2015, 04:28 PM
:whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag:

We're officially done in 2015.

PaleHoser
06-28-2015, 04:33 PM
Robbie and Cooper are now 168-230 since the start of 2013.

This is Year 3 of Kenny's current Three Year Plan.

RCWHITESOX
06-28-2015, 04:35 PM
I've never been a big fan of pitch counts. Here is where it works against you. Samardzija didn't have a "high" pitch count so leave him in. Sale is dealing but he has reached his pitch count limit, take him out. Lost both games.

If there is one glaring deficiency that both Ozzie and Robin have in common is that neither could manage a pitching staff. I'm also sure that goes hand in hand with Cooper. As for management they continue to have their heads in the sand.

captain54
06-28-2015, 04:39 PM
Real, Real bad timing with Williams shooting his mouth off about how the fans should keep their mouths shut about Ventura..since they know nothing about how to run a MLB club

Lost in this fiasco

1) 5-9 in the lineup goes 1-18..(LaRouche did hit a sac fly)
2) Ramirez 0-4 with a rally killing FC, almost a DP with 1 out and 2 on..
3) Barring the outcome of the A's/Royals game, the Sox have worst winning percentage in the AL

RCWHITESOX
06-28-2015, 04:44 PM
Real, Real bad timing with Williams shooting his mouth off about how the fans should keep their mouths shut about Ventura..since they know nothing about how to run a MLB club

Lost in this fiasco

1) 5-9 in the lineup goes 1-18..(LaRouche did hit a sac fly)
2) Ramirez 0-4 with a rally killing FC, almost a DP with 1 out and 2 on..

I don"t think Williams knows too much about running a MLB club. He had his day in the sun in 2005 and everything has gone downhill since then.

captain54
06-28-2015, 04:49 PM
I don"t think Williams knows too much about running a MLB club. He had his day in the sun in 2005 and everything has gone downhill since then.

It's only month 3 of a three year plan. Relax, brighter days are ahead

I just thought of another three years of this and I upchucked a little

PaleHoser
06-28-2015, 05:04 PM
I wonder if Kenny's a lip reader?

Here's video of Samardzija asking the same question many of us have. (https://vine.co/v/eJXAwaghgpr)

Dick Allen
06-28-2015, 05:18 PM
I've been long past the point of watching any games this season, but I still have been checking scores. So I saw that they were ahead 4-0 in the seventh. The next score I see, they lost 5-4. I have officially had it. If the past 4 years haven't done it to me, this season has. After 55 years as a die-hard, I am checking out. Won't even be following the scores. Wake me when they make the playoffs again. By that reckoning, I will have broken Rip Van Winkle's record. **** Kenny Williams and his ******* lip service. **** JR. **** the manager and his brain-dead coaching staff. And **** the overpaid dough head players. They're all dead to me. I'm putting my Sox apparel into storage. Bye.

thomas35forever
06-28-2015, 05:19 PM
I've been long past the point of watching any games this season, but I still have been checking scores. So I saw that they were ahead 4-0 in the seventh. The next score I see, they lost 5-4. I have officially had it. If the past 4 years haven't done it to me, this season has. After 55 years as a die-hard, I am checking out. Won't even be following the scores. Wake me when they make the playoffs again. By that reckoning, I will have broken Rip Van Winkle's record. **** Kenny Williams and his ******* lip service. **** JR. **** the manager and his brain-dead coaching staff. And **** the overpaid dough head players. They're all dead to me. I'm putting my Sox apparel into storage. Bye.
We'll miss you around here.

Tragg
06-28-2015, 05:24 PM
I wonder if Kenny's a lip reader?

Here's video of Samardzija asking the same question many of us have. (https://vine.co/v/eJXAwaghgpr)
Wow - is that from today? Pretty stunning.

The consistent clowning by the manager/pitching coach has got to wear on the team. Remember this is the guy wouldn't call for a replay in Detroit early in the season, when most managers would have called it on any tight play at that point in the game.

ZombieRob
06-28-2015, 05:28 PM
Robin is going down as the worst manager in Sox history. And that's a hard feat to accomplish.

JB98
06-28-2015, 05:29 PM
Petricka, Putnam and Duke have all been blowing leads and blowing games lately. What makes us think the outcome would have been different if Shark had been pulled two batters earlier? They were destined to lose this game, because they suck.

The offense does a good job against Price, but then the pitching can't hold it. It's always something with these guys.

The team is 15-25 against the AL Central. There's your 10 games below .500. They can't beat anybody in this division, and that's why they are in last place. That's why they will finish in last place. No big run is coming. Hopefully, management realizes that, although I worry they believe their own propaganda.

gobears1987
06-28-2015, 05:32 PM
Robin Ventura the manager has been bad enough to completely ruin any distant happy memories of Robin Ventura the player. He's been that bad and his inability take any responsibility for it is a joke.

cards press box
06-28-2015, 05:36 PM
Real, Real bad timing with Williams shooting his mouth off about how the fans should keep their mouths shut about Ventura..since they know nothing about how to run a MLB club

Lost in this fiasco

1) 5-9 in the lineup goes 1-18..(LaRouche did hit a sac fly)
2) Ramirez 0-4 with a rally killing FC, almost a DP with 1 out and 2 on..
3) Barring the outcome of the A's/Royals game, the Sox have worst winning percentage in the AL

All excellent points. The bottom of the lineup is awful offensively and has not produced all year. Time has come to look to next year and the future.

So, have the Sox signed Carson Fulmer yet?

delben91
06-28-2015, 05:47 PM
They were destined to lose this game, because they suck.



That about sums it up for me.

JB98
06-28-2015, 06:01 PM
The key moment in the game was the 3-run double. Zach against Martinez with the game on the line, Lefty/lefty. You been watching Duke lately? I was thinking along with the Brain Trust there and I understand their conclusion, but I still might have made the change. But Duke's been **** lately.

Martinez is a switch-hitter who this season is hitting .441 right-handed and .182 left-handed. That split is a little bit extreme because the injury he had affected him when he was swinging from the left side, but not the right. Nevertheless, historically Martinez is a better hitter right-handed, so I can't think of any circumstance where Duke should have been brought in the game there.

Frankly, I think Martinez would have gotten a hit off any pitcher the Sox would have used, because, as I indicated, the Sox suck. Once the wheels start coming off for this team, they are incapable of tightening the screws. As soon as the HBP to Kinsler happened, I just shrugged and thought, "We lose." The Sox were ahead 4-1 and I knew it was over. Shortly thereafter, it was. Losing to divisional foes is just what this team does.

slavko
06-28-2015, 06:07 PM
Martinez is a switch-hitter who this season is hitting .441 right-handed and .182 left-handed. That split is a little bit extreme because the injury he had affected him when he was swinging from the left side, but not the right. Nevertheless, historically Martinez is a better hitter right-handed, so I can't think of any circumstance where Duke should have been brought in the game there.

Frankly, I think Martinez would have gotten a hit off any pitcher the Sox would have used, because, as I indicated, the Sox suck. Once the wheels start coming off for this team, they are incapable of tightening the screws. As soon as the HBP to Kinsler happened, I just shrugged and thought, "We lose." The Sox were ahead 4-1 and I knew it was over. Shortly thereafter, it was. Losing to divisional foes is just what this team does.

Senior moment on my part.

Brian26
06-28-2015, 06:08 PM
There was a game today?

I mowed the lawn, trimmed the bushes, helped do some weeding in the back. Came inside and played legos, watched some dvds, took a nap.

It's amazing how much you can get done when you don't invest your time in a **** product.

Lip Man 1
06-28-2015, 06:13 PM
Well... if nothing else Kenny is getting an eyeful with the team "he" put together. (According to his comments Friday...)

Ventura could manage for the next 10 years and he still wouldn't have the "feel" for what it takes to win in major league baseball despite what Kenny says.

Regarding Don Cooper, he's an arrogant guy who should have been fired years ago. His pitching staffs have sucked.

It's pretty amazing when you think about it. Cooper has already ripped the fans twice on the radio this year, Williams said fans aren't qualified to judge Ventura (but he is? LOL) only the White Sox CONSISTENTLY rip their fan base (the people who pay the freight) and nothing is done to those who do.

Why? because after watching him for over 30 years I think JR feels that way too.

Look at times these folks may be right about the fan base (I don't think so but it's possible) but even so, one of the first rules of business is you don't rip your customers. You shut your mouth and take it.

It's one thing to rip your fan base if you've won multiple titles...quite another when you haven't done **** in a decade.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Jurr
06-28-2015, 06:42 PM
Wow. Did that one go well, or what??
I'm sorry to all of you that actually still watch this mess day to day.
Business affairs and a golf game keep me away from such ridiculousness.

guillensdisciple
06-28-2015, 07:20 PM
Well... if nothing else Kenny is getting an eyeful with the team "he" put together. (According to his comments Friday...)

Ventura could manage for the next 10 years and he still wouldn't have the "feel" for what it takes to win in major league baseball despite what Kenny says.

Regarding Don Cooper, he's an arrogant guy who should have been fired years ago. His pitching staffs have sucked.

It's pretty amazing when you think about it. Cooper has already ripped the fans twice on the radio this year, Williams said fans aren't qualified to judge Ventura (but he is? LOL) only the White Sox CONSISTENTLY rip their fan base (the people who pay the freight) and nothing is done to those who do.

Why? because after watching him for over 30 years I think JR feels that way too.

Look at times these folks may be right about the fan base (I don't think so but it's possible) but even so, one of the first rules of business is you don't rip your customers. You shut your mouth and take it.

It's one thing to rip your fan base if you've won multiple titles...quiet another when you haven't done **** in a decade.

Just my opinion.

Lip

That's exactly really irritating. I am sure it has something to do with them having poor attendance year to year

BainesHOF
06-28-2015, 07:46 PM
The consistent clowning by the manager/pitching coach has got to wear on the team. Remember this is the guy wouldn't call for a replay in Detroit early in the season, when most managers would have called it on any tight play at that point in the game.

I think that's correct. I think talk amongst the players is what partially emboldened Eaton to argue with Parent when he was benched for a game.

BainesHOF
06-28-2015, 07:53 PM
I wonder if Kenny's a lip reader?

Here's video of Samardzija asking the same question many of us have. (https://vine.co/v/eJXAwaghgpr)

What is Samardzija saying?

amsteel
06-28-2015, 07:58 PM
The team is 15-25 against the AL Central. There's your 10 games below .500. They can't beat anybody in this division, and that's why they are in last place. That's why they will finish in last place. No big run is coming. Hopefully, management realizes that, although I worry they believe their own propaganda.

In the unlikely event the Twins make the playoffs this year the Sox will be the only AL central team to not make the playoffs during Ventura's reign of inadequacy.

amsteel
06-28-2015, 08:01 PM
At least things have aligned and they'll have a new manager and competitive team in 2017.

Lip Man 1
06-28-2015, 08:26 PM
At least things have aligned and they'll have a new manager and competitive team in 2017.

Amsteel:

With this organization and the way they refuse to even consider badly needed change, you never assume anything.

Lip

Tragg
06-28-2015, 08:28 PM
I see Cooper got a mite testy with the reporters today. I always figured he was kind of co-manager.

Ideally, Ventura goes the way Sandberg went....resigned to clear the way for the new personnel at the top of the organization.

PaleHoser
06-28-2015, 08:49 PM
What is Samardzija saying?

I'm not a professional lip reader, but it sure looks to me like he's "what the **** am I still out there for?"

gobears1987
06-28-2015, 08:57 PM
I see Cooper got a mite testy with the reporters today. I always figured he was kind of co-manager.

Ideally, Ventura goes the way Sandberg went....resigned to clear the way for the new personnel at the top of the organization.

I think this organization got rid of the wrong people after 2011.

Dan H
06-28-2015, 09:03 PM
I'm with Lip regarding the Sox and the fans. If the Sox aren't ripping their own fans, they sit by idly and say nothing when the Chicago sports media does it. And all of this accomplishes nothing.

Okay so maybe we know nothing about running a major league baseball team. But we can see the team may have its second last place finish in three years. When did something like that last happen?

There could have been so much to build on from this game if the Sox had won. Instead the attention is on the eighth inning.

Does anyone in the organization care about all of this? How about the Board of Directors? Oh yes, they're a bunch of old guys who could care less because they're financially set or too feeble to even know enough to care.

Noneck
06-28-2015, 09:07 PM
Does anyone in the organization care about all of this? How about the Board of Directors? Oh yes, they're a bunch of old guys who could care less because they're financially set or too feeble to even know enough to care.


They probably would care if the club lost money but thats next to impossible to do with the Sox.

tstrike2000
06-28-2015, 09:13 PM
I see Cooper got a mite testy with the reporters today. I always figured he was kind of co-manager.

Ideally, Ventura goes the way Sandberg went....resigned to clear the way for the new personnel at the top of the organization.

Cooper's never been Mr. PR guy during interviews. He comes across all the time like we're bothering him. Like the crabby old guy up the street who calls the cops on everyone. He can't handle criticism and doesn't know how to articulately handle it. Just one of the reasons why I wouldn't want him as an interim manager or manager.

A. Cavatica
06-28-2015, 09:17 PM
I think this organization got rid of the wrong people after 2011.

Just not enough of them.

Ken
06-28-2015, 09:36 PM
I see Cooper got a mite testy with the reporters today. I always figured he was kind of co-manager.

Ideally, Ventura goes the way Sandberg went....resigned to clear the way for the new personnel at the top of the organization.

It is obvious that not much is going to change Kenny Williams' mind and we will be stuck with Ventura for the next two seasons.

Our only hope might be if Sox fans can come together and organize a public campaign (petition, rally, etc.) to appeal to Ventura to resign.

I really doubt that Ventura or anyone from the organization reads this board or listen to radio call-in shows, but Ventura seems to be a reasonable, caring individual. He might recognize a strong public outcry from Sox fans and do the right thing like Sandberg. Ventura would be stepping down from a large contract, but I am sure JR would find a spot for him in the organization.

Do any of the WSI veterans have any idea where to begin?

voodoochile
06-28-2015, 09:39 PM
What is Samardzija saying?

I can't tell and I read lips pretty well. Maybe someone else can decipher it.

voodoochile
06-28-2015, 09:43 PM
I'm not a professional lip reader, but it sure looks to me like he's "what the **** am I still out there for?"

"Still out there for" I agree with. The rest I can't make out. It probably doesn't matter what the rest is he clearly isn't happy that he's still pitching.

Do pitchers normally have a way to signal the dugout when they want to be removed?

Did he tell Cooper he should be pulled when the mound visit happened?

If not why?

If he doesn't feel he can say that to his pitching coach then it's the surest sign that the coaching team all needs to be let go.

Lip Man 1
06-28-2015, 10:18 PM
Voodoo:

There is no sign directly but a pitcher if he's gassed, losing it or spent can just signal the dugout for the manager / pitching coach to come out to the mound and talk with them.

I've known pitchers who had told the manager / coach that they're done but it's rare. It's a macho thing to finish / get out of the jam...doesn't happen often.

But here's the thing, it shouldn't be on a pitcher to have to tell the manager that in the first place, given the ego / macho segment of the game. It's up to the manager to know when a pitcher is done regardless of what the pitcher says / thinks.

Jerry Koosman told me something in an interview where he said (paraphrasing) 'I've thrown 130 pitches in a game and felt fine, I've thrown 80 pitches in a game and been gassed. The manager has to know when I'm done because I'm not going to say I want out of the game. A manager can tell by watching if the pitcher is laboring, if the pitches are up in the zone or if the pitcher is taking a lot of time between pitches.'

The onus is on the manager in the end. They make the call. The pitching coach has an input, a good manager will ask them 'what do you think...' but in the end only the manager makes that call. (At least an experience one.) Frankly who knows how much power Cooper has or how much rope Ventura gives him.

Basically the entire Sox situation is a cluster**** as they say in the military.

Lip

voodoochile
06-28-2015, 10:29 PM
Voodoo:

There is no sign directly but a pitcher if he's gassed, losing it or spent can just signal the dugout for the manager / pitching coach to come out to the mound and talk with them.

I've known pitchers who had told the manager / coach that they're done but it's rare. It's a macho thing to finish / get out of the jam...doesn't happen often.

But here's the thing, it shouldn't be on a pitcher to have to tell the manager that in the first place, given the ego / macho segment of the game. It's up to the manager to know when a pitcher is done regardless of what the pitcher says / thinks.

Jerry Koosman told me something in an interview where he said (paraphrasing) 'I've thrown 130 pitches in a game and felt fine, I've thrown 80 pitches in a game and been gassed. The manager has to know when I'm done because I'm not going to say I want out of the game. A manager can tell by watching if the pitcher is laboring, if the pitches are up in the zone or if the pitcher is taking a lot of time between pitches.'

The onus is on the manager in the end. They make the call. The pitching coach has an input, a good manager will ask them 'what do you think...' but in the end only the manager makes that call. (At least an experience one.) Frankly who knows how much power Cooper has or how much rope Ventura gives him.

Basically the entire Sox situation is a cluster**** as they say in the military.

Lip

I want to be clear. I completely agree 100% with your points about it being the manager's job. I've said as much on these forums. Pitchers by nature are competitive. Those who are top of the line starters (or are viewed that way) tend to even have more ego and want to stay in at all costs. The manager has to know when his starter is spent and make the call regardless.

I just think it's still pretty ****ty of Shark to on the one hand be telling Cooper he's fine and wants to pitch and then be ranting about how he shouldn't be out there after he gives up the game tying double.

I do agree things are bad with the way the team is being run. I wonder if part of Robin's hesitance to take out Shark was because of the blown Sale game 10 days ago or something. I ranted in that recap that there is no good reason to ever pull a pitcher throwing a 3-hit shoutout (that's long been my opinion, well before there was ever an Internet to rant on). BUT, once that shutout was gone, Shark should have been yanked.

Something is broken. Shark won't ask out. Robin hesitates to pull the trigger. Cooper apparently has no idea who to side with or why?

Cluster**** is an excellent choice of adjective, IMO...

Noneck
06-28-2015, 10:36 PM
Basically the entire Sox situation is a cluster**** as they say in the military.

Lip

With this organization I would use the military term SNAFU.

ricker182
06-28-2015, 10:46 PM
Has anyone here actually hated a Sox team more than this one? Serious question.
I just hate them. They are absolutely no fun to watch.
Usually the games are fun to attend but I have to say last Sunday was a snooze fest. Even Beckham's walkoff was kinda "meh".

gobears1987
06-28-2015, 11:15 PM
Just not enough of them.

I can't disagree.

QCIASOXFAN
06-28-2015, 11:17 PM
The consistent clowning by the manager/pitching coach has got to wear on the team. Remember this is the guy wouldn't call for a replay in Detroit early in the season, when most managers would have called it on any tight play at that point in the game.
I'm still mad about that Detroit loss in April! He was clearly tagged out and Robin's excuse for not challenging was he didn't wanna lose it if the game went to extras. That was just unbelievable. The stupid decisions just never end.

delben91
06-28-2015, 11:43 PM
With this organization I would use the military term SNAFU.

Very appropriate actually.

soxnut67
06-28-2015, 11:44 PM
I'm just wondering after what happened with that cclip of Sharkt. It kind of looks like a buildup of frustration. Let's say he ends up with a good year, and as much as he is a Sox fan, would he really want to sign here if this staff is still here?

QCIASOXFAN
06-28-2015, 11:49 PM
Has anyone here actually hated a Sox team more than this one? Serious question.
I just hate them. They are absolutely no fun to watch.
Usually the games are fun to attend but I have to say last Sunday was a snooze fest. Even Beckham's walkoff was kinda "meh".
I don't mind the starting pitching. It's the defense and coaching that are a joke. And don't get me started on the lineup. They have 1 more run scored than the vaunted Phillies or else they would be in the cellar.

It's just weird times all around with this team. We know they suck, Kenny knows we know they suck and attacks the fans for pointing it out. Somebody made mention about the Eaton/Parent incident up thread and I am willing to bet after the season we hear all sorts of stories of things going on. And the debacle today with shark mad Robin hung him out to dry. Things are pretty bad and I think a change will happen sooner rather than later.

Falstaff
06-29-2015, 03:48 AM
I don't mind the starting pitching. It's the defense and coaching that are a joke. And don't get me started on the lineup. They have 1 more run scored than the vaunted Phillies or else they would be in the cellar.

It's just weird times all around with this team. We know they suck, Kenny knows we know they suck and attacks the fans for pointing it out. Somebody made mention about the Eaton/Parent incident up thread and I am willing to bet after the season we hear all sorts of stories of things going on. And the debacle today with shark mad Robin hung him out to dry. Things are pretty bad and I think a change will happen sooner rather than later.

Exactly. Don't be surprised you hear names like Luis Aparicio discussed in coming weeks. Or Omar Vizquel. Tony LaRussa.

Brewski
06-29-2015, 08:13 AM
Exactly. Don't be surprised you hear names like Luis Aparicio discussed in coming weeks. Or Omar Vizquel. Tony LaRussa.

Luis looked his age, last time I saw a picture. Talk about sleeping in the dugout. What Shark appears to have said probably was directed at himself for throwing a bad pitch, but that wouldn't fit our script, would it?

Rocky Soprano
06-29-2015, 08:17 AM
Luis looked his age, last time I saw a picture. Talk about sleeping in the dugout. What Shark appears to have said probably was directed at himself for throwing a bad pitch, but that wouldn't fit our script, would it?

The script is that he shouldn't have still been out there. Period. What he said or did not say does not matter.

chisox712
06-29-2015, 09:53 AM
Has anyone here actually hated a Sox team more than this one? Serious question.
I just hate them. They are absolutely no fun to watch.
Usually the games are fun to attend but I have to say last Sunday was a snooze fest. Even Beckham's walkoff was kinda "meh".

It is pretty hard to think of a white sox team that is more unlikable than this one.

whitesoxfan1986
06-29-2015, 10:10 AM
With this organization I would use the military term SNAFU.
No, FUBAR is more appropriate, because this situation is not normal. :angry:

PaleHoser
06-29-2015, 10:11 AM
"Still out there for" I agree with. The rest I can't make out. It probably doesn't matter what the rest is he clearly isn't happy that he's still pitching.

Do pitchers normally have a way to signal the dugout when they want to be removed?

Any pitcher worth his salt won't out of a game.

I'm not a fan of pitch counts. A pitcher will tell you when he's done - when he stops throwing strikes, or when he starts missing in the middle of the plate. The walk to the second hitter was a sign, and the HBP to Kinsler was a sign you'd see in Times Square.

/Rant - I'm also not a fan of keeping your closer for the 9th inning only. I know it pads statistics, but is there a bigger spot than the 8th inning with bases loaded, nobody out and the best hitter in the game coming to the plate as the go-ahead run?

I'm ripping on every manager in the game right now, since I can't think of one that would use the "closer" in that spot and use someone else against the bottom third of the lineup for the ninth inning. /End Rant

voodoochile
06-29-2015, 10:20 AM
Any pitcher worth his salt won't out of a game.

I'm not a fan of pitch counts. A pitcher will tell you when he's done - when he stops throwing strikes, or when he starts missing in the middle of the plate. The walk to the second hitter was a sign, and the HBP to Kinsler was a sign you'd see in Times Square.

/Rant - I'm also not a fan of keeping your closer for the 9th inning only. I know it pads statistics, but is there a bigger spot than the 8th inning with bases loaded, nobody out and the best hitter in the game coming to the plate as the go-ahead run?

I'm ripping on every manager in the game right now, since I can't think of one that would use the "closer" in that spot and use someone else against the bottom third of the lineup for the ninth inning. /End Rant

Yeah I agree with all of this. Highly unusual for a pitcher to ask out, but doesn't that say something about the communication level between the management team and the players? A player SHOULD feel comfortable doing that.

Noneck
06-29-2015, 10:20 AM
No, FUBAR is more appropriate, because this situation is not normal. :angry:

With this organization, its normal.

Brewski
06-29-2015, 10:44 AM
With this organization, its normal.

The BAR in FUBAR stands for But Acceptable Results. Does that mean we like what's going on? And the pitcher that shouldn't have been in the game according to us had just fanned the best hitter in baseball.

Noneck
06-29-2015, 10:52 AM
The BAR in FUBAR stands for But Acceptable Results. Does that mean we like what's going on? And the pitcher that shouldn't have been in the game according to us had just fanned the best hitter in baseball.


I said SNAFU not FUBAR.

Brewski
06-29-2015, 10:53 AM
I said SNAFU not FUBAR. I didn't mean you, I meant the FUBAR poster. SNAFU is spot on. FUBAR doesn't fit.

smac38
06-29-2015, 12:08 PM
There was a game today?

I mowed the lawn, trimmed the bushes, helped do some weeding in the back. Came inside and played legos, watched some dvds, took a nap.

It's amazing how much you can get done when you don't invest your time in a **** product.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Had a nice little weekend avoiding this team and quite enjoyed it.

KingXerxes
06-29-2015, 04:08 PM
I had always thought the BAR in FUBAR stood for "Beyond All Repair", which kind of works.

As for Kenny Williams, he is spot on in saying White Sox fans are not qualified to run a baseball operation........that's not the problem though. The problem is Kenny Williams is not qualified to run a baseball operation, and White Sox fans are certainly qualified to see that.

Brewski
06-29-2015, 05:01 PM
I had always thought the BAR in FUBAR stood for "Beyond All Repair", which kind of works.

As for Kenny Williams, he is spot on in saying White Sox fans are not qualified to run a baseball operation........that's not the problem though. The problem is Kenny Williams is not qualified to run a baseball operation, and White Sox fans are certainly qualified to see that.

I got a few laughs out of that. I've spent a lifetime using it the other way and the Web confirms yours, not mine. You learn so much at WSI. The next time I drill too big a hole and have to get a bigger screw before my wife catches on, I can't use FUBAR.

slavko
06-29-2015, 05:14 PM
The script is that he shouldn't have still been out there. Period. What he said or did not say does not matter.

So, he struck out Miggy, who is not a bad hitter!, on the previous pitch, but he shouldn't have faced Martinez. That's hindsight for you.

Boondock Saint
06-29-2015, 05:15 PM
I had always thought the BAR in FUBAR stood for "Beyond All Repair", which kind of works.

As for Kenny Williams, he is spot on in saying White Sox fans are not qualified to run a baseball operation........that's not the problem though. The problem is Kenny Williams is not qualified to run a baseball operation, and White Sox fans are certainly qualified to see that.

I thought it was "Beyond All Recognition".

whitesoxfan1986
06-29-2015, 07:52 PM
I thought it was "Beyond All Recognition".
This is what I have understood as well. Have never, ever heard of the BAR used as that acronym before.
Not what I meant. If you have read my posts earlier in the month you would have known that I don't think that this organization is doing many things that have acceptable results right now. :roflmao:

Wedema
06-29-2015, 08:17 PM
I was at all three games in Detroit this past weekend (would have been four if not for the rain out) and got to see three good one run games even if the Sox came up short in two of them. It was a good weekend at a great ballpark even though the Tiger fans were brutal to us after the Sox were leading for 7 innings on both Friday and Sunday and then blew both games late. Jose Abreu gave my daughter a ball on Sunday and we even got Conor Gillaspie to sign autographs on Thursday along with Beckham, Sanchez, and Garcia. Conor even said "your welcome" after I thanked him for the autographs. We got Victor Martinez bobbleheads on Thursday and my daughter got an ice cream bowl on Sunday. The fireworks show on Friday was lame as they shoot them off from center field and make everyone in the outfield (right and left fields) vacate their seats for the fireworks. We also took a tour of Comerica Park on Friday afternoon and got to go on the field (keep off the grass), in the Tigers dugout, the camera area in center field, the press boxes, and a luxury suite. Daniel Webb was sitting in the Sox dugout on his phone as we walked by towards the Tiger dugout. It was a nice weekend despite the rain on Saturday and the outcomes of the last two games.

Hitmen77
06-30-2015, 07:56 AM
There was a game today?

I mowed the lawn, trimmed the bushes, helped do some weeding in the back. Came inside and played legos, watched some dvds, took a nap.

It's amazing how much you can get done when you don't invest your time in a **** product.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Had a nice little weekend avoiding this team and quite enjoyed it.

What I hadn't noticed is that the Sox now have the WORST record in the American League. Take that, Oakland!

4th worst record in MLB:

Sox: .432 (winning pct)
Mia: .434
Mil: .385
Phi: .346

Watch out Marlins, we're gaining on you - #3 pick here we come!

It's a good thing that the manager and coaches of our team have zero responsibility for this mess. :rolleyes: