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cheeses_h_rice
08-21-2002, 11:14 AM
Hawk and DJ were commenting on Parque's weird pitching mechanics, and on BB2Nite they freeze-framed on Parque facing toward the ground for the last part of his delivery (and, needless to say, missing wide on a lot of his pitches). It was just sad to look at, and part of the reason I turned off the TV after it was a 5-run deficit.

Me, I think Parque may be done as a major-league pitcher.

This team is just sad.

voodoochile
08-21-2002, 11:32 AM
Was this supposed to be a response to H2D's post of the same name, or did you both have completely opposite thoughts on the same subject at the same time?

I went to that game last night and it was funny. I am watching the gun readings off and on throughout the night. At one point Parque seemed to put some pop on the ball (even I heard the crack as the ball hit the catchers mitt). So, I checked the gun - 85 MPH. Later I noticed Lohse throw what was clearly a changeup and noticed the reading was 85 MPH. Shortly thereafter Lohse threw a fastball that was 92.

I don't know whether Parque can ever be effective again or not, but if you are correct and it is mechanical, then is is also correctable, but that would mean Parque would have to be traded first, because Lord knows these clowns have no idea how to fix it...

cheeses_h_rice
08-21-2002, 11:48 AM
Great minds think alike.

Actually, we had 2 different thoughts at the same time, it appears. Me, I thought it was sad watching Parque labor out there.

hold2dibber
08-21-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Great minds think alike.

Actually, we had 2 different thoughts at the same time, it appears. Me, I thought it was sad watching Parque labor out there.

Well, he's had three starts; one good, one horrible, one okay. Hell, that's about par for the course with the rest of the pitching staff! He clearly is not all the way back, but the fact that he's kept the team in the game in 2 of 3 starts despite that fact, leads me to believe that if his arm strength continues to improve (and I don't know of any reason to think it won't), he can be a good no. 3 or 4 starter again. Parque is a battler, and I have confidence that he'll keep fighting through this until he gets his old groove back.

KingXerxes
08-21-2002, 02:36 PM
Here's how I see his three starts:

#1 - Good
#2 - Miserable
#3 - Miserable

He's finished as an effective major league pitcher.

hold2dibber
08-21-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Here's how I see his three starts:

#1 - Good
#2 - Miserable
#3 - Miserable

He's finished as an effective major league pitcher.

Why do you characterize last night's effort as "miserable"? If Ginter had not allowed his inherited runner to score, Parque goes 5 1/3 with 3 ERs. As it is, he gave up 4 ERs in 5 1/3, which certainly isn't good enough, but hardly miserable (look at the line from any of about 10 Danny Wright starts if you want to see a "miserable" performance). And how can you say definitively that he is finished as an effective major league pitcher? The common belief is that it takes two years to fully recover from arm surgery of the sort Parque had. What makes you so sure that Parque won't be able to get his arm strength back like so many others have when given time? I just don't get the "Parque will never be good again" faction and I suspect that it springs, in large part, from the fact that many people don't like Parque (because of his big mouth and horrible performance at the beginning of the year) more than anything else.

ChiSoxBobette
08-21-2002, 03:57 PM
Lets face it the White Sox have only one major league pitcher -Mark Buehrle THATS ALL FOLKS

voodoochile
08-21-2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Why do you characterize last night's effort as "miserable"? If Ginter had not allowed his inherited runner to score, Parque goes 5 1/3 with 3 ERs. As it is, he gave up 4 ERs in 5 1/3, which certainly isn't good enough, but hardly miserable (look at the line from any of about 10 Danny Wright starts if you want to see a "miserable" performance). And how can you say definitively that he is finished as an effective major league pitcher? The common belief is that it takes two years to fully recover from arm surgery of the sort Parque had. What makes you so sure that Parque won't be able to get his arm strength back like so many others have when given time? I just don't get the "Parque will never be good again" faction and I suspect that it springs, in large part, from the fact that many people don't like Parque (because of his big mouth and horrible performance at the beginning of the year) more than anything else.

Sox fans carry a grudge? NO WAY!!!

No one will be able to tell how well Parque will be able to pitch until he gets more time in. He is probably going to make the team next year as the 4th or 5th starter, but until he gets the chance to pitch several games, it is impossible to say one way or the other. Give the kid a chance. We'll know more at the end of the season and after ST next year. Calling for his head right now makes no sense when the team is out of it and Jim has just returned to the majors. As I said before, some competent coaching might help him get there sooner rather than later...

RedPinStripes
08-21-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Why do you characterize last night's effort as "miserable"?

The Comiskey environment is miserable. Fans don't even yell anymore. they just laugh and talk negative of JR and KW. Thomas gets boo-ed like you wouldn't believe, and the team looks much worse in person then they do on tv. Thomas looks like a confused rookie at the the plate. (crede) :(:

They looked good in the field, but miserable at the plate. And Parque actually didn't pitch as bad as some are saying. He made a mistake in teh 1st, but a lot of hits were ground balls. Harris plays lefties up the middle with nobody out or on for some stupid reason. I saw 3 get by him because he looked like he was trying to turn a dp with nobody on.

It's pretty depressing at the park.

hold2dibber
08-21-2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


The Comiskey environment is miserable. Fans don't even yell anymore. they just laugh and talk negative of JR and KW. Thomas gets boo-ed like you wouldn't believe, and the team looks much worse in person then they do on tv. Thomas looks like a confused rookie at the the plate. (crede) :(:



I can't tell you how much it pisses me off when people boo Frank when he makes an out. There is no doubt in my mind that he's trying like hell and wants to do well. He has sucked, but with all he has done on the field over his career, booing him when he doesn't hit is uncalled for and, probably counter productive (because Frank's problems, IMHO, are largely mental and the more people boo the more pressure he'll put on himself). Of course, if he fails to slide into home plate again, booing (and worse!) would be entirely justifiable.

KingXerxes
08-21-2002, 04:48 PM
Here's why I think Parque is through.

I really didn't think too much of him prior to getting hurt. I'll bet his lifetime ERA - pre-injury - was around 5.00. Granted he had some potential (he had a pretty good year in 2000 as I recall, although not great), but when he hurt his arm and for the most part lost two years a lot of that potential went with him.

Next year the guy is 27 years old, will have about a .500 win percentage lifetime and a high lifetime ERA. He'll certainly stick around (with the White Sox or not I don't know), but I sincerely doubt he'll amount to much more than a journeyman. He tops out at 85 mph occasionally - maybe as his arm strengthens he'll get that up a few mph, but in no way are you going to see THAT much velocity improvement. He'll have to be a junkballer (see Frank Tanana, Scott McGregor, Jamie Moyer), and as of right now, his stuff isn't that good.

RedPinStripes
08-21-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I can't tell you how much it pisses me off when people boo Frank when he makes an out. There is no doubt in my mind that he's trying like hell and wants to do well. He has sucked, but with all he has done on the field over his career, booing him when he doesn't hit is uncalled for and, probably counter productive (because Frank's problems, IMHO, are largely mental and the more people boo the more pressure he'll put on himself). Of course, if he fails to slide into home plate again, booing (and worse!) would be entirely justifiable.

When a player is not performing and it don't matter who it is. They'll get boo-ed in this town.

Foulke You
08-21-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


The Comiskey environment is miserable. Fans don't even yell anymore. they just laugh and talk negative of JR and KW. Thomas gets boo-ed like you wouldn't believe, and the team looks much worse in person then they do on tv. Thomas looks like a confused rookie at the the plate. (crede) :(:

They looked good in the field, but miserable at the plate. And Parque actually didn't pitch as bad as some are saying. He made a mistake in teh 1st, but a lot of hits were ground balls. Harris plays lefties up the middle with nobody out or on for some stupid reason. I saw 3 get by him because he looked like he was trying to turn a dp with nobody on.

It's pretty depressing at the park.

Amen to that. I was at the game on Monday and it was indeed depressing. It's like a morgue. Of course, 3 homers in the first inning before I even put the mustard on my hot dog didn't help the crowd morale. Nothing to cheer for after the 2 homers by Carlos and Maggs and Tuesday's game looked even more depressing. Can't even plate 1 stinkin' run. Also, does anyone know what the league lead in stranded runners is? I bet we're right on top of the league in that stat.

BTW, were there a lot of annoying Twinkee fans last night too? They were out in force on Monday with there cute little "circle me Bert" signs. Whatever the f*** that is. I imagine it is some short of shout out to Bert Blyleven in the booth. I told this really annoying pair of Twinkee loser fans that I was looking forward to watching the Angels or A's demolish them in the playoffs. They had an almost Cleveland Indians fan annoyance factor but not quite.

whitesoxwilkes
08-21-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


BTW, were there a lot of annoying Twinkee fans last night too? They were out in force on Monday with there cute little "circle me Bert" signs.

Dear God, i thought that was strictly a Twinkie Dome phenomenon, but I guess they do it for road telecasts too. The first time I went to a game there a couple weeks ago there must have been 2,000 people with those damned signs. Here's the deal (i THINK ): they have a camera pan the crowd and Byleven circles you on the telestrator. When they do it at the Dome, they put the fans up on their excuse for a Jumbotron (which is smaller than my TV) with a little picture of Bert from Sesame Street up there. And they just go apes*it.

Another dumb thing they do at the twinkie Dome is Twins bingo..since most Twins fans are too dumb to keep score play by play, they give you a bingo card with scoring plays on it. After each play, they put the scoring up on the board and you check it off on your card. First 20 people to get bingo win a pizza.

MisterB
08-21-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Here's why I think Parque is through.

I really didn't think too much of him prior to getting hurt. I'll bet his lifetime ERA - pre-injury - was around 5.00. Granted he had some potential (he had a pretty good year in 2000 as I recall, although not great), but when he hurt his arm and for the most part lost two years a lot of that potential went with him.

Next year the guy is 27 years old, will have about a .500 win percentage lifetime and a high lifetime ERA. He'll certainly stick around (with the White Sox or not I don't know), but I sincerely doubt he'll amount to much more than a journeyman. He tops out at 85 mph occasionally - maybe as his arm strengthens he'll get that up a few mph, but in no way are you going to see THAT much velocity improvement. He'll have to be a junkballer (see Frank Tanana, Scott McGregor, Jamie Moyer), and as of right now, his stuff isn't that good.

Parque pre-injury (3 seasons):

29 W - 26 L, 4.79 ERA, 473.2 IP, 1.59 WHIP, 1.50 K:BB

for comparison - Jon Garland & Mark Buehrle (career to date - 2 2/3 seasons):

JG: 18 W - 24 L, 4.86 ERA, 327.2 IP, 1.55 WHIP, 1.14 K:BB
MB: 35 W - 18 L, 3.50 ERA, 452.2 IP, 1.17 WHIP, 2.33 K:BB

WhiteSox = Life
08-21-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by MisterB


Parque pre-injury (3 seasons):

29 W - 26 L, 4.79 ERA, 473.2 IP, 1.59 WHIP, 1.50 K:BB

for comparison - Jon Garland & Mark Buehrle (career to date - 2 2/3 seasons):

JG: 18 W - 24 L, 4.86 ERA, 327.2 IP, 1.55 WHIP, 1.14 K:BB
MB: 35 W - 18 L, 3.50 ERA, 452.2 IP, 1.17 WHIP, 2.33 K:BB

Excuse me for my idiocy, but I was wondering what WHIP means. I've tried to look it up at a couple of sites and couldn't find out the meaning. If someone could just give me a quick definition, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. :smile:

Daver
08-21-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life


Excuse me for my idiocy, but I was wondering what WHIP means. I've tried to look it up at a couple of sites and couldn't find out the meaning. If someone could just give me a quick definition, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. :smile:

Walks + hits divided by innings pitched = WHIP.

ode to veeck
08-22-2002, 03:16 PM
off topic, but Daver, you need a new hunting sig

Daver
08-22-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
off topic, but Daver, you need a new hunting sig

There was a reason for changing it that I won't go into right now.