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amsteel
06-23-2015, 01:35 PM
Fangraphs thinks so, and to an extreme extent:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/maybe-its-time-to-blow-up-the-white-sox/

I disagree with the idea of trading Sale and/or Abreu because good lord there would be no fans left but yeah, they could move Quintana for some valuable parts with not too much fanfare.

He's pretty much spot on with the analysis, though, with the exception of maybe being a little too pessimistic with Avi:
David Robertson is still an elite closer, but elite closers don’t move the needle much for non-contending teams, and they have the shelf life of a near-ready avocado.

To be a legitimate contender, the White Sox are looking at needing to buy something like +20 WAR from seven positions at an average price of $2 million per win; the market rate for wins was roughly $8 million apiece last winter, so, yeah, good luck with that.

...though it’d probably be better to spread it around with short-term deals and save the big splash for when the team is definitely ready to compete.

JB98
06-23-2015, 01:42 PM
It all depends on what "blow it up" means. Should they be sellers at the deadline? Yes, of course.

But I'm opposed to trading Chris Sale, so much so that I might punch someone in the face if they try to tell me that's a good idea.

Anyone here trust this regime's talent evaluation to get the proper return that Sale should fetch? I sure don't.

Also, it's considered a good thing to have a superstar player locked up to a team-friendly contract over the next five years. Plenty of time to build a team around him.

LITTLE NELL
06-23-2015, 01:45 PM
I'm more depressed than ever after reading the assessment of most of our players. Shame on this organization for turning a big market club into an irrelevant piece of garbage. Please JR, sell now, White Sox fans deserve more than you have given us.

Domeshot17
06-23-2015, 01:53 PM
Its hard to not agree with it. Sale and Abreu are incredible, but what good are they on this team?

I would hold on to Sale personally and hope that Sale-Rodon-Fulmer-Adams is a 1-4 that can carry you.

I would consider trading Abreu and Quintana though.

But they are right, Avi is nearing bust territory, Laroche is done, Ramirez is done, Melky is done, and the rest of the guys never were good enough to start. This team is a joke.

kittle42
06-23-2015, 01:59 PM
Fan graphs has been accurately killing their Sox analysis all year. This article is excellent. Depressing, but excellent.

Soxman219
06-23-2015, 02:00 PM
I'm more depressed than ever after reading the assessment of most of our players. Shame on this organization for turning a big market club into an irrelevant piece of garbage. Please JR, sell now, White Sox fans deserve more than you have given us.

Amen. I felt embarrassed as a fan after reading this article. The fact that Danks will still be on the team next year also makes me sad. I don't see this team contending for a while.

kobo
06-23-2015, 02:21 PM
I don't need to read an article to know this team sucks, there's only a few players worth anything and that it's going to take time to be a contender.

Years and years of going for it, trying to be "all in", not being able to develop players has caught up to this organization. Hell, it caught up to them a couple years ago but once again the message this off season was that they felt like they could compete. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing that crap more than I'm tired of the pathetic baseball this team plays.

Fisk Fan
06-23-2015, 02:22 PM
Pretty sad, considering its not even July yet....

kobo
06-23-2015, 02:22 PM
It all depends on what "blow it up" means. Should they be sellers at the deadline? Yes, of course.

But I'm opposed to trading Chris Sale, so much so that I might punch someone in the face if they try to tell me that's a good idea.

Anyone here trust this regime's talent evaluation to get the proper return that Sale should fetch? I sure don't.

Also, it's considered a good thing to have a superstar player locked up to a team-friendly contract over the next five years. Plenty of time to build a team around him.
Not just that, but does anyone have any faith that this organization can develop position players? I don't.

Andrew C White
06-23-2015, 02:30 PM
But they are right, Avi is nearing bust territory

Rank nonsense.

amsteel
06-23-2015, 02:35 PM
Fan graphs has been accurately killing their Sox analysis all year. This article is excellent. Depressing, but excellent.

Yeah, they seem to be the only ones who truly understand the state the Sox are in and that includes the White Sox' own front office.

Tragg
06-23-2015, 02:39 PM
Anyone here trust this regime's talent evaluation to get the proper return that Sale should fetch? I sure don't.

.

No, but I don't trust this team's talent evaluation to get the player around Sale either. For all of the poor development and evaluation, they have also been particularly poor at evaluating veteran players. Some of this is caused by nutty philosophies, such as a love of utility level talent, long-relievers who have AAAA talent, and players whose sole skill is making the clubhouse comfy for Prince Robin.

I'm not opposed to trading sale (go ahead and punch - I can take it)...but I doubt any team would offer his real value.
I would trade anyone else.

DumpJerry
06-23-2015, 02:45 PM
Whenever someone wants an example of hyperbole, I direct them to this place.

Moses_Scurry
06-23-2015, 02:54 PM
Trading Sale would be stupid. Nobody will gut their team to trade what he is worth.

I could see a case for anybody else though, including Abreu.

white sox bill
06-23-2015, 03:07 PM
Yes to smitherens, w/exception of very few. What a sad state this franchise is in

Saufley
06-23-2015, 03:10 PM
Too many times I have heard Hawk say about a batter that "this guy is due". This team is BORING!! Moves have to be made or most fans are going to jump ship. Start with the manager and the coaches. This team lacks any fire and seems to have no energy. Time to start holding players, the manager and coaches accountable. Stop rewarding ex-players with jobs. Bring in real baseball people with experience! No more on the job training!! Such a letdown from the hype!! I'm just thankful I had 2005!

Hitmen77
06-23-2015, 03:22 PM
I'd keep at least Sale, Abreu, Garcia, and Rodon and see if we can get something of value for the others.

Aside from these players, who would fetch anything worthwhile? Robertson and Samardzija?

It all depends on what "blow it up" means. Should they be sellers at the deadline? Yes, of course.

But I'm opposed to trading Chris Sale, so much so that I might punch someone in the face if they try to tell me that's a good idea.

Anyone here trust this regime's talent evaluation to get the proper return that Sale should fetch? I sure don't.

Also, it's considered a good thing to have a superstar player locked up to a team-friendly contract over the next five years. Plenty of time to build a team around him.

Agreed. It makes no sense to trade him. He's young and under a team-friendly contract through 2019.

Oh sure, he could blow out his arm in a few months and we'd in hindsight say we should have sold high. But, since we don't own a crystal ball, it really doesn't make any sense to trade him now.

Rank nonsense.

No kidding. I don't know why some people are so eager to give up on Avi Garcia already. He's yet to play a full major league season and he's only 23. But, people want the Sox to sell low on him now. :scratch:

Irishsox1
06-23-2015, 03:30 PM
The Sox shouldn't make any major moves until Ventura is fired and to fix this Ventura should be fired today.

russ99
06-23-2015, 03:41 PM
Good article, but trading Sale is beyond dumb.

Nobody can pay what his real value is, not even Minnesota or Houston. And even if we can get a top 5 prospect, who's to say they'll really pan out?

Cost-controlled good young players are the rarity in this sport, no need to hand ours to someone else.

Thinking of moving Avisail or Eaton is also short-sighted. Dump them at their lowest value, and we'll see them bounce back with someone else but us. I still think there are big league players there, but this cycle of losing with a staff in way over their heads isn't helping.

I'd like to see the Sox move some of the players mentioned but finding a new manager and coaching staff, and a better run front office in the offseason could bring in some players to add to the existing core and reboot things once more.

Domeshot17
06-23-2015, 04:00 PM
No kidding. I don't know why some people are so eager to give up on Avi Garcia already. He's yet to play a full major league season and he's only 23. But, people want the Sox to sell low on him now. :scratch:

I Dont think we should trade Avi.. but he was a projection prospect when we got him. The book on him was he would be a good contact hitter who would grow into his power. In almost 750 career plate appearances, the power is still a projection. Right now, he is looking like an ok hitter, a .720 OPS guy, a 4th OF type, but that level of offense doesn't make up for how bad defensively he is.

He is a negative WAR player, his defense is horrendous, and he isn't producing enough power to not care about the D.

I agree, he is young, it can still come without a doubt. But I am not expecting it much more.

Noneck
06-23-2015, 04:17 PM
The write up is very good. I noticed that no one is mentioned from the minors except pitchers. The A. Garcia mention is probably the most damning. I watch him and notice that he doesnt look good at all. He swings through 89mph fastballs, cant pull practically anything and is very poor in the field. Granted he is young and cheap but it would be nice to start to see some improvement.

I dont know how this can be turned around in a couple years. The Sox can try the FA market again next year but thats a crap shoot as is seen this year.

Sale is probably the best Sox pitcher ever. Wasting his prime is a sin. How its not going to be wasted will take a miracle. On the other hand if something bad happens to Sale in the near future, the Sox will have to hang a bunting over Sox Park entrance. Im up in the air what should be done now.

DSpivack
06-23-2015, 06:14 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Abreu, Rodon.
Listen but probably not move: Quintana, Garcia.
On the block: Everyone else.

ricker182
06-23-2015, 06:17 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Abreu, Rodon.
Listen but probably not move: Quintana, Garcia.
On the block: Everyone else.

Ditto

asindc
06-23-2015, 06:25 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Abreu, Rodon.
Listen but probably not move: Quintana, Garcia.
On the block: Everyone else.

Yup.

Tragg
06-23-2015, 06:25 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Rodon
Listen on anyone else.
Actively move Shark and all relievers

kittle42
06-23-2015, 06:53 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Rodon
Listen on anyone else.
Actively move Shark and all relievers

This is closer to how I feel, if I'm being brutally honest with myself.

Andrew C White
06-23-2015, 06:56 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Abreu, Rodon.
Listen but probably not move: Quintana, Garcia.
On the block: Everyone else.

Politely Listen: Anyone
Untouchable for all practical purposes: Sale, Abreu, Garcia, Rodon
Tradeable if the (high) price is right: Quintana
On the block: Samardzija, Ramirez, LaRoche, Cabrara, Gillaspie
Willing to pay someone to take: Danks
Preferring to keep but willing to move: The Bullpen, Eaton (for now), Sanchez, M.Johnson, Anderson, Hawkins, Montas, Adams, Michalczewski
Willing to trade if anyone asks: Everyone else

slavko
06-23-2015, 07:04 PM
If I can read the tea leaves coming from the mouths of management and its voices, something will start happening when they get back from this road trip. Whoever they move, they will get immediately worse. Unless there's a treasure trove of talent coming up from our barren system. I'd be verrrrry surprised if Ventura went anywhere before game 162. If he does, I'll push a peanut down Green Bay Road with my nose. Maybe.

He'll be allowed to resign without embarrassment to the team or himself at a non-sensitive time.

DumpJerry
06-23-2015, 07:11 PM
Untouchables: Sale, Abreu, Rodon.
Listen but probably not move: Quintana, Garcia.
On the block: Everyone else.
Finally, some common sense arrives in the thread!:bandance:

Andrew C White
06-23-2015, 08:57 PM
Finally, some common sense arrives in the thread!:bandance:

Common?

The Immigrant
06-23-2015, 09:51 PM
Chris Sale is ours and nobody else can have him.

Oh yeah, **** Dave Cameron. He made an ass of himself years ago with his irrational dislike of the Sox and he still doesn't have a clue.

Tragg
06-23-2015, 10:27 PM
I think he is dismissive of some of the Sox players.
Eaton can hit reasonably well. - in the .700s OPS.
So can Gillaspie - I know he has defensive issues but can hit in the .700s (try him in the OF).
Avi is a big concern.

Also, if we wanted to sell everyone, by putting all of these players on the market now, the Sox would flood the market with supply and depress their own prices.

I'd listen on everybody, but I still think they could be competitive in a couple of years without a sell-off. But they have to evaluate talent a lot better than they have, and I'm not sure that Bell, Williams and Hahn are capable of quality talent evaluation.
Looking for a catcher who can hit? Try Phegley with a homer and double tonight - he'd be #2 on the Sox easily, just behind Abreu.

Domeshot17
06-23-2015, 10:31 PM
Phegley sucked, Connor sucks too

Half our lineup is negative WAR players, its a bad team. He is right to be dismissive, there is a reason we are this bad.

Lets try getting a real catcher and a real 3b.

Dan H
06-23-2015, 10:58 PM
One thing this guy says that makes sense is that a team needs more the six major league players to make a winner.

Whatever, the Sox do, I don't know if I trust the current management in making right choices to turn this thing around. We don't just need new players; we need a front office with a whole different approach.

The Sox are a mess. I believe they need to bring in someone new to clean it up, but I doubt that is likely.

ChiSoxNationPres
06-23-2015, 11:25 PM
The Sox have the pitching to turn this around in a year or 2. So I'd like to keep Abreu, Eaton and Avi because you can't reasonably replace all 9 positions in that time. Honestly I feel Melky has years left in the tank, he is showing that lately and I don't think selling low on players is how you rebuild. Hopefully Hahn can make some creative trades with Shark, Alexei, LaRoche, bullpen arms to find us 3B, C, and middle infield.

cards press box
06-23-2015, 11:41 PM
The Sox have the pitching to turn this around in a year or 2. So I'd like to keep Abreu, Eaton and Avi because you can't reasonably replace all 9 positions in that time. Honestly I feel Melky has years left in the tank, he is showing that lately and I don't think selling low on players is how you rebuild. Hopefully Hahn can make some creative trades with Shark, Alexei, LaRoche, bullpen arms to find us 3B, C, and middle infield.

I couldn't have said this better. The Sox pitching going forward is going to be great. If the Sox can make some smart additions of position players, they will be fine. No need to blow everything up. Fangraphs is wrong.

captain54
06-24-2015, 12:57 AM
If the Sox can make some smart additions of position players, they will be fine. No need to blow everything up. .

Not a great track record in the recent past on making those smart additions

ChicagoG19
06-24-2015, 01:10 AM
Maybe I am being too much of an optimist, but can we give the team until the end of July first? We ask baseball fans tend to be fickle. One week the team is back in it, and then the next week they are done. Despite the recent bad stretch, the Sox are still not that far out of the playoffs (6 games in the loss column as of this writing). One five-game winning streak and all of sudden we're in a striking distance. Sneak into the playoffs and Sale and Quintana can win you some games.

kittle42
06-24-2015, 01:23 AM
Maybe I am being too much of an optimist, but can we give the team until the end of July first? We ask baseball fans tend to be fickle. One week the team is back in it, and then the next week they are done. Despite the recent bad stretch, the Sox are still not that far out of the playoffs (6 games in the loss column as of this writing). One five-game winning streak and all of sudden we're in a striking distance. Sneak into the playoffs and Sale and Quintana can win you some games.

I knew there were still a few of you out there. I give you credit for admitting it. However, it's just not realistic, and this team needs to be at the forefront of the selling market.

Dan H
06-24-2015, 08:24 AM
I knew there were still a few of you out there. I give you credit for admitting it. However, it's just not realistic, and this team needs to be at the forefront of the selling market.

I agree. We have been told to wait from the beginning, but the team has been exposed. All we can ask at this point that there is real thought behind any moves that are made.

I don't like the phrase "blow it up." Sounds irrational. And when it comes to the White Sox some solid long-range plans are needed. If not, the losing will only go on longer.

TomBradley72
06-24-2015, 09:32 AM
I'm not sure why we would "blow it up"- all Hahn did in the offseason was sign FA's (or trade irrelevant prospects for a 1 year Samardzija rental)- to buy time for the farm system to help plug the holes long term.

I think the issue with the 2015 White Sox is more about guys like Eaton, Gillaspie, Ramirez and Flowers (vs. the 2nd half 2014 version) falling off the cliff- than the issue is the performance of the guys brought in over the winter (though most have underperformed).

Conor Gillaspie is nothing more than a bench player at best- he's a .250 hitter projecting to make 25-30 errors at 3rd base over a full season- he's a complete disaster at 3B.

Flowers (excluding his "magic glasses" 2014 2nd half) is the worst long term starting catcher in the history of the franchise.

Ramirez has completely fallen off a cliff- an OPS drop from .713 to .537 in one year!

+ the lack of production from Johnson/Sanchez at 2B-

I see 4 major holes in the starting line up (hopefully Sanchez can get to hitting .250 - which would be fine with his defense)- but I think the other pieces are OK, and I see a good/young starting rotation (Sale, Quintana, Rodon- Fullmer on the way) to build around-

The horrible farm system is killing us- we've been waiting years for a 3rd baseman and/or a catcher-

Of course you trade Shark for some prospects as soon as possible- but I wouldn't move the starting pitching - which is probably our only other trade bait.

Tragg
06-24-2015, 10:04 AM
Conor Gillaspie is nothing more than a bench player at best- he's a .250 hitter projecting to make 25-30 errors at 3rd base over a full season- he's a complete disaster at 3B.

Gillaspie had a OPS over .750 last year, about the same as Eaton; he's down this year (better than Eaton), but who isn't? And it's still .746 against right handed pitching. As for defense, try him at another position. They could have set up a platoon in left instead of signing Melky, which also gives you a bench player who isn't a utility level a talent. Heck, the Sox won't even consider Danks in the bullpen, so I know I'm howling at the moon about asking for any creativity from this staff.

The horrible farm (drafting, evaluation, development) is killing us.
But they still need to make some moves. Pitching is all they have to trade, but to do that comfortably, it would help to know what they have in AAA. Eric Johnson is killing AAA. Junior Guerra annihilated AAA hitters, but the braintrust has him behind the woeful Carroll on the bullpen depth chart. There are a couple of other guys in Charlotte too.
They need to score big with Shark, obviously. Did a nice job with Peavy. Whiffed badly with Jackson. Need to get something for other pieces as well.

Lip Man 1
06-24-2015, 11:18 AM
Stumbled across this and have a hard time saying the assessment is wrong:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150623/sports/150629599/

Lip

TomBradley72
06-24-2015, 11:26 AM
Gillaspie had a OPS over .750 last year, about the same as Eaton; he's down this year (better than Eaton), but who isn't? And it's still .746 against right handed pitching. As for defense, try him at another position. They could have set up a platoon in left instead of signing Melky, which also gives you a bench player who isn't a utility level a talent. Heck, the Sox won't even consider Danks in the bullpen, so I know I'm howling at the moon about asking for any creativity from this staff.

.

Soooooo- put a guy in LF who has never played the outfield and we still have a hole at 3rd? It's not like he's so great at the plate that you have to find a spot for him.

He's 28 yo- he's an OK hitter vs. RHP- so prob a decent platoon player (3B & 1B) vs. RHPs- but he is not a starter on a contender.

amsteel
06-24-2015, 11:49 AM
Stumbled across this and have a hard time saying the assessment is wrong:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150623/sports/150629599/

Lip

If the Sox were making moves last winter to "keep up" with the Cubs as the writer mentions (suggests?) then I quit

doublem23
06-24-2015, 12:03 PM
If the Sox were making moves last winter to "keep up" with the Cubs as the writer mentions (suggests?) then I quit

A completely unsubstantiated report from a nobody writing for a garbage newspaper nobody reads, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

Lip Man 1
06-24-2015, 12:04 PM
If the Sox were making moves last winter to "keep up" with the Cubs as the writer mentions (suggests?) then I quit

Actually I was talking about the overall assessment of the franchise as opposed to that one observation.

Who really knows the motivation behind it? If there was any outside factor influencing things I'd bet on the dwindling season ticket / overall ticket sales base as the motivation.

Lip

Tragg
06-24-2015, 12:07 PM
Stumbled across this and have a hard time saying the assessment is wrong:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150623/sports/150629599/

Lip

Yes, the overall theme is accurate: the Sox are stale across the board.

And to hero-worship at this point with Sale and Abreu gets them nowhere. If the offer is there, take it.

captain54
06-24-2015, 01:04 PM
The debate over whether to blow it all up vs not blow it all up.. is all well and good..

However, it does not address the issue that... this franchise has failed for the last 10 yrs.. 2008 being the only possible exception.. I don't consider playing above .500 most of the season, and missing the playoffs a successful season.. the organization is too staid and set in their ways and the investors too entrenched at this point to veer off of the mindset, and i suspect one of their reasons (with some validity) is that the current brain trust won a WS in 05, and the Sox are still financially in decent shape

If the franchise was really serious about winning back the fan base and making a push towards getting back some relevancy in this town, an unbiased, professional, knowledgeable and astute set of baseball people would be brought in to make recommendations as to how to turn this thing around.. I'm talking about changes in the front office, farm system, etc.. all across the board.

The problems with the Sox run much deeper than just replacing the manager, some coaches, and a few players here or there.. I get that there is no perfect franchise. But, I have ZERO confidence in this organization and how things are approached.. You can't consistently, year after year, throw your acquisitions under the bus, claiming "underachievement".. The fans aren't stupid.. At some point, the powers that be need be accountable

JB98
06-24-2015, 01:14 PM
If the Sox were making moves last winter to "keep up" with the Cubs as the writer mentions (suggests?) then I quit

The insistence on defining the Sox through the prism of the Cubs is obnoxious. What the Cubs have done, or are doing, should have no bearing on the Sox's actions.

Lip Man 1
06-24-2015, 01:25 PM
The fans aren't stupid.. At some point, the powers that be need be accountable

Read a scouts comments on the Sox in the Sun-Times today and they said the same thing, that Sox fans "aren't stupid" and can easily see the issues. The question is can those in charge see it and are they willing to make the changes to solve it?

Lip

amsteel
06-24-2015, 01:40 PM
The insistence on defining the Sox through the prism of the Cubs is obnoxious. What the Cubs have done, or are doing, should have no bearing on the Sox's actions.

Exactly, that's why the insinuation that the Cubs play some role in the Sox' decision making makes my skin crawl.

The Sox' marketing department, maybe, but not baseball operations.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-24-2015, 01:43 PM
Yes, the overall theme is accurate: the Sox are stale across the board.

And to hero-worship at this point with Sale and Abreu gets them nowhere. If the offer is there, take it.

Of course you move them if the price is right. There are so many holes on this team that the likelihood of replacing LF, CF, 3B, SS, 2B, and C while either Sale or Abreau is still productive is smaller than the likelihood that they won't be able to replace those positions.

With no prospects to fill any of those holes, the question becomes whether you want to watch Sale and Abreau while they lose 90, or whether they should be moved for top prospects to build a new nucleus

MARTINMVP
06-24-2015, 02:21 PM
Could not agree more Captain54. Very well articulated and on the money assessment.

The problems with this organization are structural, and until those are properly addressed, anything else is simply window dressing.

The debate over whether to blow it all up vs not blow it all up.. is all well and good..

However, it does not address the issue that... this franchise has failed for the last 10 yrs.. 2008 being the only possible exception.. I don't consider playing above .500 most of the season, and missing the playoffs a successful season.. the organization is too staid and set in their ways and the investors too entrenched at this point to veer off of the mindset, and i suspect one of their reasons (with some validity) is that the current brain trust won a WS in 05, and the Sox are still financially in decent shape

If the franchise was really serious about winning back the fan base and making a push towards getting back some relevancy in this town, an unbiased, professional, knowledgeable and astute set of baseball people would be brought in to make recommendations as to how to turn this thing around.. I'm talking about changes in the front office, farm system, etc.. all across the board.

The problems with the Sox run much deeper than just replacing the manager, some coaches, and a few players here or there.. I get that there is no perfect franchise. But, I have ZERO confidence in this organization and how things are approached.. You can't consistently, year after year, throw your acquisitions under the bus, claiming "underachievement".. The fans aren't stupid.. At some point, the powers that be need be accountable

smac38
06-24-2015, 02:27 PM
Could not agree more Captain54. Very well articulated and on the money assessment.

The problems with this organization are structural, and until those are properly addressed, anything else is simply window dressing.

And the problem is, the odds of that are slim and none.

TomBradley72
06-24-2015, 03:44 PM
The debate over whether to blow it all up vs not blow it all up.. is all well and good..

However, it does not address the issue that... this franchise has failed for the last 10 yrs.. 2008 being the only possible exception.. I don't consider playing above .500 most of the season, and missing the playoffs a successful season.. the organization is too staid and set in their ways and the investors too entrenched at this point to veer off of the mindset, and i suspect one of their reasons (with some validity) is that the current brain trust won a WS in 05, and the Sox are still financially in decent shape

If the franchise was really serious about winning back the fan base and making a push towards getting back some relevancy in this town, an unbiased, professional, knowledgeable and astute set of baseball people would be brought in to make recommendations as to how to turn this thing around.. I'm talking about changes in the front office, farm system, etc.. all across the board.

The problems with the Sox run much deeper than just replacing the manager, some coaches, and a few players here or there.. I get that there is no perfect franchise. But, I have ZERO confidence in this organization and how things are approached.. You can't consistently, year after year, throw your acquisitions under the bus, claiming "underachievement".. The fans aren't stupid.. At some point, the powers that be need be accountable

Yep- the "blow it up" dynamic should be pointed at Kenny Williams, Robin Ventura, Jerry Reinsdorf and Brooks Boyer- all are taking an incredibly "stale" approach to their roles-

I still think Hahn is a talented GM- I don't think he's the problem

Dan H
06-24-2015, 04:22 PM
I don't think that what happens with the Cubs can be ignored. In fact, I think it is important. However, the obvious thing is that the team has to take care of its own business first and foremost and that has not happened. I think of what has happened since 2005 and just shake my head.

Right now, as in 2013, the team is leaving the impression that it doesn't care. That may not be the case, but perceptions are important. All the front office has to do is come to WSI and see that die-hard fans are totally losing faith. It's easy for to lash out at so-called "fair weather" fans. But when the most loyal of fans are completely depressed about the team, you have more serious problems than a slumping attendance in a losing year.

Back in 2011 when Ozzie Guillen was lashing out at the most loyal of fans and Adam Dunn was hitting .159, I hoped the organization would make some truly huge decisions to change the culture of the franchise. They did next to nothing. We are now seeing the results of that inaction.

My advice to the Sox is to do something while you still have a franchise left.

cards press box
06-24-2015, 04:34 PM
Back in 2011 when Ozzie Guillen was lashing out at the most loyal of fans and Adam Dunn was hitting .159, I hoped the organization would make some truly huge decisions to change the culture of the franchise. They did next to nothing. We are now seeing the results of that inaction.

My advice to the Sox is to do something while you still have a franchise left.

Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that. We'll survive this.

Rich Hahn, I suspect, will make the deadline deals that he can and will "move the ball forward," so to speak. But, to be fair, they have already done something very important: they drafted Vanderbilt star righty, Carson Fulmer, a few weeks ago. Did you see Game 1 of the College World Series on Monday night? He dominated a very good Virginia team.

The future is pointing to a Sox rotation with Sale, Rodon, Fulmer and Quintana as the Sox big four. That's a real good start and the Sox have other pitchers coming who are strong prospects.

The Sox have to improve at many positions in the field. That is obvious. But that is a lot easier than finding a great pitching staff. I'm still optimistic that Hahn will make the Sox a perennial contender.

infohawk
06-24-2015, 05:03 PM
Rank nonsense.
I agree. Avi had a solid April and May. He's struggled big time in June following his knee injury in late May. This suggests that he's playing hurt and it shows up in his stats. He'll be fine.

smac38
06-24-2015, 05:11 PM
Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that. We'll survive this.

Rich Hahn, I suspect, will make the deadline deals that he can and will "move the ball forward," so to speak. But, to be fair, they have already done something very important: they drafted Vanderbilt star righty, Carson Fulmer, a few weeks ago. Did you see Game 1 of the College World Series on Monday night? He dominated a very good Virginia team.

The future is pointing to a Sox rotation with Sale, Rodon, Fulmer and Quintana as the Sox big four. That's a real good start and the Sox have other pitchers coming who are strong prospects.

The Sox have to improve at many positions in the field. That is obvious. But that is a lot easier than finding a great pitching staff. I'm still optimistic that Hahn will make the Sox a perennial contender.

That's one of the most frustrating things...this team has the pitching to win, but can't muster more than 1 run for a perennial Cy Young candidate. He literally has to be next to perfect in order to win games. He threw an absolute gem against the Rays, with 1 mistake, and lost the game. I don't know how these guys can look him or Quintana in the eye.

Dan H
06-24-2015, 05:19 PM
Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that. We'll survive this.


.

I remember the teams of the late Sixties, too. Old Comiskey had crowds of 3,000 and less and the franchise nearly collapsed. Yes, team survived, but barely and more idiocy was on the way. I prefer not to go there again, survival or not. Right now I don't have your faith.

smac38
06-24-2015, 05:23 PM
I remember the teams of the late Sixties, too. Old Comiskey had crowds of 3,000 and less and the franchise nearly collapsed. Yes, team survived, but barely and more idiocy was on the way. I prefer not to go there again, survival or not. Right now I don't have your faith.

While I'd be disgusted and embarrassed with this situation regardless, it just adds salt to the wound that the Cubs have their arrow pointed straight up at the time the Sox are hitting new lows. I deserve better than having to restrain myself from throttling insufferable Cub fans.

Soxman219
06-24-2015, 05:24 PM
Yes. Blow it all up.

Tragg
06-24-2015, 05:29 PM
The future is pointing to a Sox rotation with Sale, Rodon, Fulmer and Quintana as the Sox big four. That's a real good start and the Sox have other pitchers coming who are strong prospects.

The Sox have to improve at many positions in the field. That is obvious. But that is a lot easier than finding a great pitching staff. I'm still optimistic that Hahn will make the Sox a perennial contender.
Sox need to trade some of that off for hitters. Hitting is a more scarce commodity. The Cubs jumped on that early and they were right.
Cubs got their ace from trading Scott Feldman. Another from dumping Dempster. These are average innings-eater types. 1 big and 2 small signings and there's your league leading ERA staff.
Eric Johnson looks like he's ready. Guerra annihilated Charlotte with high Ks; he's older with a weird pedigree, but let him pitch more often than every 10 days. There are other guys in Charlotte too. Let's see what they have. For goodness sakes we know what Scott Carroll has.
The pitching depth actually looks decent in the minors.
Oakland has traded off a lot of pitching. It's good currency.

Domeshot17
06-24-2015, 06:49 PM
Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that. We'll survive this.

Rich Hahn, I suspect, will make the deadline deals that he can and will "move the ball forward," so to speak. But, to be fair, they have already done something very important: they drafted Vanderbilt star righty, Carson Fulmer, a few weeks ago. Did you see Game 1 of the College World Series on Monday night? He dominated a very good Virginia team.

The future is pointing to a Sox rotation with Sale, Rodon, Fulmer and Quintana as the Sox big four. That's a real good start and the Sox have other pitchers coming who are strong prospects.

The Sox have to improve at many positions in the field. That is obvious. But that is a lot easier than finding a great pitching staff. I'm still optimistic that Hahn will make the Sox a perennial contender.

I would trade Quintana in a heart beat, he won't be needed when the Sox are good because Adams will be the 4, and it looks like Johnson maybe the 5, or a host of other young talent.

But the Sox have 1 offensive player worth anything in Abreu. Maybe Eaton. I know we all want Avi to be good, but this year he is one of the worst players in baseball, a negative WAR player.

I was on the whole we can turn it around bandwagon for a long while, but this is unwatchable. We suck at 2b, SS, 3b, LF, CF, RF.

We only have a couple offensive players posting a positive WAR, Abreu and Laroche, and LaRoche is 89 years old.

captain54
06-24-2015, 07:32 PM
Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that. We'll survive this.

Rich Hahn, I suspect, will make the deadline deals that he can and will "move the ball forward," so to speak.

The future is pointing to a Sox rotation with Sale, Rodon, Fulmer and Quintana .

1968-70 was a much different era . The sports climate in this town was very different than what it is now. In two years, (1972) the Sox were able to bring in a new manager and one star player, and regain some mojo. The Bears, Hawks, and Cubs were no real threat to any one. No one really took the Bulls seriously.

In today's Chicago sports scene, fans are not going to have the patience with a struggling franchise. There's too many other distractions

With a number of issues concerning the offense, a great majority of defensive positions that need to be addressed, and a need for a major league catcher, good luck to Rick Hahn on being able to hold on to all that pitching

GoSox2K3
06-24-2015, 08:53 PM
I would trade Quintana in a heart beat, he won't be needed when the Sox are good because Adams will be the 4, and it looks like Johnson maybe the 5, or a host of other young talent.

But the Sox have 1 offensive player worth anything in Abreu. Maybe Eaton. I know we all want Avi to be good, but this year he is one of the worst players in baseball, a negative WAR player.

I was on the whole we can turn it around bandwagon for a long while, but this is unwatchable. We suck at 2b, SS, 3b, LF, CF, RF.

We only have a couple offensive players posting a positive WAR, Abreu and Laroche, and LaRoche is 89 years old.

Garcia is one of the worst players in baseball? Really?

shes
06-24-2015, 09:16 PM
Garcia is one of the worst players in baseball? Really?

Among guys that play every day, yeah. I mean, he hasn't been Melky bad, but he's a .265 hitter without much power that doesn't draw walks or steal bases. In the field he has a great arm but other than that he's been pretty bad.

Actually, Melky, Avi, and Alexei are all in the bottom 10 in MLB in WAR. Eaton's not far off at #17 from the bottom.

amsteel
06-24-2015, 09:37 PM
Oh, the Sox will have a franchise left post-2015. I remember just bad the Sox were from 1968 to 1970. The Sox and their fans survived that.

Barely, they almost moved the team to Milwaukee.

Someone that knows the stadium deal logistics: how (if at all) possible is it for a new super rich owner to buy the Sox when JR sells, flip the double birds to the state, buys out the lease and then moves the team?

Unlikely I presume due to the sweet deal they have, but is it an ironclad deal?

Lip Man 1
06-24-2015, 09:40 PM
Barely, they almost moved the team to Milwaukee.

Someone that knows the stadium deal logistics: how (if at all) possible is it for a new super rich owner to buy the Sox when JR sells, flip the double birds to the state, buys out the lease and then moves the team?

Unlikely I presume due to the sweet deal they have, but is it an ironclad deal?

Anything is possible money can get you through a lot of issues...however it's always been my contention that if some how the Sox were to leave, the American League would not simply "give up" the third biggest market in the country to the National League.

They'd put another team back into town one way or another.

Lip

amsteel
06-24-2015, 09:43 PM
Anything is possible money can get you through a lot of issues...however it's always been my contention that if some how the Sox were to leave, the American League would not simply "give up" the third biggest market in the country to the National League.

They'd put another team back into town one way or another.

Lip

Do the AL and NL exist in any capacity outside of name anymore?

It's not like they split revenue based on which league you're in.

Domeshot17
06-24-2015, 09:55 PM
Garcia is one of the worst players in baseball? Really?

Statistically, yes

To break it down, when you factor his total game, offense, defense, he is Dayan Viciedo with less power so far...

He is one of the worst RF in baseball defensively and his bat is not currently covering for it.

Im not saying on talent he is one of the worst 10, but in terms of production, yes, he is one of the 10 worst players in baseball.

Andrew C White
06-24-2015, 10:04 PM
I know we all want Avi to be good, but this year he is one of the worst players in baseball, a negative WAR player.

More rank nonsense.

I don't understand where the Avi Garcia hate is coming from. Kid just turned 24 a couple weeks ago, has yet to play a full major league season, has been one of the few productive players on the team this year, has a boatload of talent... and did I mention he just turned 24? Anyone giving up on Avi Garcia is frankly clueless. Check back in a couple years and if he is hitting like Beckham then he is a failed prospect but right now he looks like one of the future stars of the team.

Mind boggling.

And I don't care what his WAR is. It is a sometimes useful number. He plays a premimum position often played by the best the game so WAR is comparing a guy who is essentially a rookie against the best in the game and he is coming up short. Hardly surprising.

Mind boggling.

ricker182
06-24-2015, 10:07 PM
More rank nonsense.

I don't understand where the Avi Garcia hate is coming from. Kid just turned 24 a couple weeks ago, has yet to play a full major league season, has been one of the few productive players on the team this year, has a boatload of talent... and did I mention he just turned 24? Anyone giving up on Avi Garcia is frankly clueless. Check back in a couple years and if he is hitting like Beckham then he is a failed prospect but right now he looks like one of the future stars of the team.

Mind boggling.

And I don't care what his WAR is. It is a sometimes useful number. He plays a premimum position often played by the best the game so WAR is comparing a guy who is essentially a rookie against the best in the game and he is coming up short. Hardly surprising.

Mind boggling.

I do think Avi holds a lot of trade value, but I don't trust this organization to trade him for the right players.

IDK if I want us to trade him or not because chances are we will just get crap back. That's exactly why I hope Abreu, Quintana, and Sale are untouchables.

amsteel
06-24-2015, 10:19 PM
More rank nonsense.

I don't understand where the Avi Garcia hate is coming from. Kid just turned 24 a couple weeks ago, has yet to play a full major league season, has been one of the few productive players on the team this year, has a boatload of talent... and did I mention he just turned 24? Anyone giving up on Avi Garcia is frankly clueless.

All other qualified corner outfielders that are 24 or younger are at least 1 WAR better than him this year so it's not like no one is succeeding at that position at that age

Andrew C White
06-24-2015, 10:30 PM
All other qualified corner outfielders that are 24 or younger are at least 1 WAR better than him this year so it's not like no one is succeeding at that position at that age

Statistics can be very useful for evaluating baseball but they can also lead people into incredibly ridiculous places.

Avi Garcia is a young talented player that has shown a great deal of ability while also showing he has some things to learn. If you want to build a good young team then he is the kind of player you want to bring in and build around.

Who knows! He may flop and never get any better than he is today. We saw that happen with another young talented player at 2B in recent years. But if you bring in a young player and then decide part way through his first full year with the team that he is "one of the worst players in baseball" and ought to be traded then you will always have a bad baseball team. That broken clock won't even be right twice a day.

Avi Garcia has a chance to be a star in this league. I wouldn't consider trading him for at least 3 years unless someone completely overwhelms me with an offer.

ricker182
06-24-2015, 11:51 PM
I don't get the AVI hate.
There are a lot of others to blame before him.

He just needs some proper coaching. He's still very young.

kittle42
06-24-2015, 11:56 PM
Avi Garcia has a chance to be a star in this league. I wouldn't consider trading him for at least 3 years unless someone completely overwhelms me with an offer.

Questions:

Would you trade him straight up for Addison Russell?

For Cory Seager?

For Lucas Giolito?

I would easily on all three. Of course, I think all those offers qualify as overwhelming, so maybe someone else can think of something closer?

ricker182
06-25-2015, 12:04 AM
Questions:

Would you trade him straight up for Addison Russell?

For Cory Seager?

For Lucas Giolito?

I would easily on all three. Of course, I think all those offers qualify as overwhelming, so maybe someone else can think of something closer?

Seager maybe.
I don't like Russell and Giolito would be unnecessary.

Plus as soon as we trade Garcia he will just blow up anyway. That's our luck right now.

He's borderline untouchable right now. He needs to stay unless someone really wants to overpay for him.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 12:06 AM
Seager maybe.
I don't like Russell and Giolito would be unnecessary.

Plus as soon as we trade Garcia he will just blow up anyway. That's our luck right now.

He's borderline untouchable right now. He needs to stay unless someone really wants to overpay for him.

How would Giolito be unnecessary? I know I'm kinda getting off topic here.

ricker182
06-25-2015, 12:26 AM
How would Giolito be unnecessary? I know I'm kinda getting off topic here.

Well he's still an unknown.
Also we need hitters not pitchers.
We can get anyone that could be our 5 starter.
Even Danks is still serviceable.

I'm satisfied with Rodon.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 12:31 AM
Well he's still an unknown.

Not really. He's as unknown as any guy who has never played in the majors, I suppose. Isn't Seager as much an unknown by that logic, yet you said you'd consider that one?

Also we need hitters not pitchers.

In fantasy world where a team offered you the best pitching prospect in baseball, you take the best pitching prospect in baseball.

I'm satisfied with Rodon.

It isn't a one or the other choice. Do you think the Sox should not have drafted a pitcher in the first round this year, as well?

ricker182
06-25-2015, 12:48 AM
Not really. He's as unknown as any guy who has never played in the majors, I suppose. Isn't Seager as much an unknown by that logic, yet you said you'd consider that one?
Seager has already had success at the ML level. Giolito is still in A ball. And he has not been good this year.

And honestly I think Avi is better than Seager.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 01:01 AM
Seager has already had success at the ML level. Giolito is still in A ball. And he has not been good this year.

And honestly I think Avi is better than Seager.

Seager hasn't seen the majors yet.

If you are thinking of Kyle Seager, yes, I would also take him over Garcia. And I like Garcia.

RCWHITESOX
06-25-2015, 01:29 AM
Seager has already had success at the ML level. Giolito is still in A ball. And he has not been good this year.

And honestly I think Avi is better than Seager.

Seager is still a unknown. If he was all that the Dodgers would have already called him up as Rollins is on his last legs. Prospects are called prospects for a reason. Garcia has already shown what he can do and hopefully improve on.

white sox bill
06-25-2015, 07:45 AM
Me thinks one of the main areas of anger here is lack of management to do anythnig to right this trainwreck. Be glad JR and company arent captioning the Titanic...certain death for all

amsteel
06-25-2015, 08:15 AM
Statistics can be very useful for evaluating baseball but they can also lead people into incredibly ridiculous places.


And with relying on potential and discarding past performance you end up with Dayan Viciedo.

I'm not advocating giving up on Avi yet but say in a year or so when he's up to 1000/1200 PAs if someone makes an offer to trade him straight up for a corner outfielder in the same age range who has played better than him to this point you think really hard about pulling the trigger on that deal.

Tragg
06-25-2015, 09:54 AM
Garcia's OPS is under .700. His career is just a touch above. He needs to be in the .800s to be of real value.

BTW, another outstanding pitching performance from a Charlotte pitcher. This time Terance Marin who's been nails all season. The pitching depth may be building to the point where the Sox can dispatch more than Shark.

Senerch23
06-25-2015, 10:24 AM
Maybe I am being too much of an optimist, but can we give the team until the end of July first? We ask baseball fans tend to be fickle. One week the team is back in it, and then the next week they are done. Despite the recent bad stretch, the Sox are still not that far out of the playoffs (6 games in the loss column as of this writing). One five-game winning streak and all of sudden we're in a striking distance. Sneak into the playoffs and Sale and Quintana can win you some games.

What has this team shown you that leads you to believe they can get into the playoffs? They are at the bottom of the entire league offensively, defensively and on the bases.

Hitmen77
06-25-2015, 11:29 AM
Barely, they almost moved the team to Milwaukee.

Someone that knows the stadium deal logistics: how (if at all) possible is it for a new super rich owner to buy the Sox when JR sells, flip the double birds to the state, buys out the lease and then moves the team?

Unlikely I presume due to the sweet deal they have, but is it an ironclad deal?

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I'd like to think the Sox staying in Chicago is pretty secure. Years ago, there were available markets like Milwaukee, Seattle, Denver, and St. Pete for the Sox or other franchises to move to.

Nowadays, there are no slam dunk new available markets for MLB. Just ask the A's how easy it is to find somewhere to relocate to after years of poor attendance in a crappy stadium.

The aftermath of 2005 proved that there is a lot of untapped potential for the Sox in the Chicago market. If only this team could ever become a serious playoff contender on a consistent basis.

Anything is possible money can get you through a lot of issues...however it's always been my contention that if some how the Sox were to leave, the American League would not simply "give up" the third biggest market in the country to the National League.

They'd put another team back into town one way or another.

Lip

I doubt it. If the Sox leave Chicago, that'll be it for Chicago as a 2 team town. This will be a Cubs town, period. Two teams markets are really only for NY and LA and perhaps the Bay Area.

Do the AL and NL exist in any capacity outside of name anymore?

It's not like they split revenue based on which league you're in.

Agreed. It's not like years ago when the AL and NL were two separate leagues. MLB won't really care about having the AL represented in Chicago.

kobo
06-25-2015, 11:43 AM
In regards to Garcia, he is in a major slump right now. He's batting .141 in the month of June (11 of 78) with 3 HR, 8 RBI, 5 BB and 26 K. I do think he has talent and I'm not ready to give up on him but he is bad right now. Really bad. He also doesn't look good in RF. And the lack of power is concerning as well.

I'm willing to give him a chance but not another 3 years. If he doesn't start making improvements this year that carry over to next year then I hope the Sox don't wait too long with him.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 11:55 AM
In regards to Garcia, he is in a major slump right now. He's batting .141 in the month of June (11 of 78) with 3 HR, 8 RBI, 5 BB and 26 K. I do think he has talent and I'm not ready to give up on him but he is bad right now. Really bad. He also doesn't look good in RF. And the lack of power is concerning as well.

I'm willing to give him a chance but not another 3 years. If he doesn't start making improvements this year that carry over to next year then I hope the Sox don't wait too long with him.

Thats just it. Great post. These comments that the stats are lying and its rank nonsense and all that, people sound like Hawk Harrelson and his TWTW.

No one is saying Garcia IS A BUST or he can't be good. But he has been, statistically speaking, one of the WORST PLAYERS in baseball this year. The limited offense he has given us has not made up for the horrible defense he plays. There is simply no denying that. It is what it is.

He still may grow into his power, he is a young guy. But people said the same thing about Tank.

To sit here and say he may be a budding superstar, I would just take a solid mlb contributer right now. Everyone said the EXACT same stuff about Beckham before.

There is no reason to write him off, but he has to be A LOT better.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 12:00 PM
Also, to say you would not trade Avi for Seager, Giolito or Russell is insanity and just being a homer.

Russell is a 1.7 WAR player right now, he is light years better than Farcia

Gio is one of the premiere young arms in baseball, he would be the number 2 in our rotation until Sale leaves. Sale-Gio-Rodon-Fulmer could rival Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz-Avery level

Seager is one of the brightest young hitters in the minors, and has a higher ceiling than Avi ever did at any point in his career.

Lemon44
06-25-2015, 12:00 PM
Statistics can be very useful for evaluating baseball but they can also lead people into incredibly ridiculous places.

Avi Garcia is a young talented player that has shown a great deal of ability while also showing he has some things to learn. If you want to build a good young team then he is the kind of player you want to bring in and build around.

Who knows! He may flop and never get any better than he is today. We saw that happen with another young talented player at 2B in recent years. But if you bring in a young player and then decide part way through his first full year with the team that he is "one of the worst players in baseball" and ought to be traded then you will always have a bad baseball team. That broken clock won't even be right twice a day.

Avi Garcia has a chance to be a star in this league. I wouldn't consider trading him for at least 3 years unless someone completely overwhelms me with an offer.

His before/after knee injury stats:

39 games, 147 AB, .327/.365/.456 36 SO/8 BB

23 games, 86 AB, .151/.223/.256 27 SO/5 BB

aryzner
06-25-2015, 12:03 PM
His before/after knee injury stats:

39 games, 147 AB, .327/.365/.456 36 SO/8 BB

23 games, 86 AB, .151/.223/.256 27 SO/5 BB

These numbers stand out. I think he's still hurt.

#1swisher
06-25-2015, 12:37 PM
Comcast SportsNet ‏@CSNChicago (https://twitter.com/CSNChicago) 22m22 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/CSNChicago/status/614119303311413249)

#WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/hashtag/WhiteSox?src=hash) hope day off clears Alexei Ramirez's head: http://bit.ly/1LrXDhU (http://t.co/u8uWmWVbPO) (@CSNHayes (https://twitter.com/CSNHayes))


“Sometimes that average can pile up on you,” Ventura said. “He is an emotional guy. You know, when the average isn’t going your way, sometimes that can pile up on you and you feel like you are getting swallowed up. For him, hopefully we can clear his mind today and have Gordon out there. It’s good. You have a talk. You just make sure he’s all right and clear that up and know what’s expected. That’s the biggest thing.
“We had a talk and he’s good. He’s going to be ready to go.”

JohnTucker0814
06-25-2015, 01:15 PM
I would do whatever it takes to get Seager from LA. The positives on the sides of the Sox are the Dodgers desperately need pitching and they just signed Hector Olivera to a huge contract and he is probably ahead of Seager in their call-up from the minors. So if the Dodgers want to WIN NOW, they could possibly give up Seager for the right package:

Quintana - Micah Johnson - Trayce Thompson for Seager

white sox bill
06-25-2015, 01:33 PM
While it interesting at times to crunch numbers, all that seems to get thrown out the door when a player comes here. This is where good players come to wind down thier playing days and fade into the sunset

kittle42
06-25-2015, 01:36 PM
I would do whatever it takes to get Seager from LA. The positives on the sides of the Sox are the Dodgers desperately need pitching and they just signed Hector Olivera to a huge contract and he is probably ahead of Seager in their call-up from the minors. So if the Dodgers want to WIN NOW, they could possibly give up Seager for the right package

He's on obvious target for a number of sellers for that reason. Let's hope the Sox are inquiring.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 02:57 PM
Questions:

Would you trade him straight up for Addison Russell?

For Cory Seager?

For Lucas Giolito?

I would easily on all three. Of course, I think all those offers qualify as overwhelming, so maybe someone else can think of something closer?

I don't see any overwhelming reason to make those trades though perhaps the other player might be better. But if you offered them to me along with another starter quality player then I'd consider it sure.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:01 PM
And with relying on potential and discarding past performance you end up with Dayan Viciedo.

I'm not advocating giving up on Avi yet but say in a year or so when he's up to 1000/1200 PAs if someone makes an offer to trade him straight up for a corner outfielder in the same age range who has played better than him to this point you think really hard about pulling the trigger on that deal.

No. He doesn't have a "past performance" to discard. I will say again that he has yet to play a full major league season.

Dayan Viciedo was gotten rid of right about the time he should have been. You give young talent a chance to succeed. When they don't after a few year you take your losses and move on. Beckham was allowed to hang around as a starter too long.

Garcia hasn't even had a chance yet. The entire discussion is crazy.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:03 PM
I don't see any overwhelming reason to make those trades though perhaps the other player might be better. But if you offered them to me along with another starter quality player then I'd consider it sure.

We'll agree to disagree, but I am guessing most industry folks would jump at moving Garcia in at least two and likely all three of those trades. I think you are greatly undervaluing the, well, value of such prospects (or, in Russell's case, an actual MLB player).

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:04 PM
Thats just it. Great post. These comments that the stats are lying and its rank nonsense and all that, people sound like Hawk Harrelson and his TWTW.

No one is saying Garcia IS A BUST or he can't be good. But he has been, statistically speaking, one of the WORST PLAYERS in baseball this year. The limited offense he has given us has not made up for the horrible defense he plays. There is simply no denying that. It is what it is.

He still may grow into his power, he is a young guy. But people said the same thing about Tank.

To sit here and say he may be a budding superstar, I would just take a solid mlb contributer right now. Everyone said the EXACT same stuff about Beckham before.

There is no reason to write him off, but he has to be A LOT better.

It's rank nonsense. The kid just turned 24. If you are going to give up on him then you should be giving up on Rodon any minute now. And heck! Sale gave up runs his last game he's obviously over hyped and turning into a bum.

Ridiculous. The kid just turned 24 two weeks ago! Give'm a chance for cryin' out loud!

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:05 PM
No. He doesn't have a "past performance" to discard. I will say again that he has yet to play a full major league season.

Dayan Viciedo was gotten rid of right about the time he should have been. You give young talent a chance to succeed. When they don't after a few year you take your losses and move on. Beckham was allowed to hang around as a starter too long.

Garcia hasn't even had a chance yet. The entire discussion is crazy.

If only BA had been given those full 1,000 plate appearances to figure it all out... :D:

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:08 PM
We'll agree to disagree, but I am guessing most industry folks would jump at moving Garcia in at least two and likely all three of those trades. I think you are greatly undervaluing the, well, value of such prospects (or, in Russell's case, an actual MLB player).

Yes, we will have to disagree. I see no reason to bring in a good young player that you can build a team around only to turn around and trade him for another young player unless you are somehow getting two or more of them of that sort of quality. Otherwise you end up with a revolving door and no philosophy for building a team whatsoever. It makes no sense.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:09 PM
If only BA had been given those full 1,000 plate appearances to figure it all out... :D:

BA was a failure from the start. Avi has shown no signs of being a failure at all.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:10 PM
It's rank nonsense. The kid just turned 24. If you are going to give up on him then you should be giving up on Rodon any minute now. And heck! Sale gave up runs his last game he's obviously over hyped and turning into a bum.

Ridiculous. The kid just turned 24 two weeks ago! Give'm a chance for cryin' out loud!

It's not a question of giving up - it's a question of whether the organization feels they can trade him and get something in return that they feel better about developing into an outstanding player.

Again, you have to give something to get something of value in return. We aren't saying Garcia doesn't have value or that he should be traded for a bag of balls. Look at the names being bandied about here, after all.

Mohoney
06-25-2015, 03:10 PM
He's on obvious target for a number of sellers for that reason. Let's hope the Sox are inquiring.

I would worry that both Rick Hahn and Walt Jocketty ask for Corey Seager, and that the Dodgers choose the superior Johnny Cueto over Jeff Samardzija, even at the cost of adding more to the trade package. I would get aggressive and immediately offer Samardzija for Seager straight-up and hope that the Dodgers want to beat everyone else to the punch when it comes to trading for a starter.

Even if the Dodgers say no, it sets a firm asking price on Samardzija: he can be had in a one-for-one deal for a top prospect. The Reds are asking for more than that on Johnny Cueto, and the Phillies are asking for more than that on Cole Hamels.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:16 PM
It's not a question of giving up - it's a question of whether the organization feels they can trade him and get something in return that they feel better about developing into an outstanding player.

Again, you have to give something to get something of value in return. We aren't saying Garcia doesn't have value or that he should be traded for a bag of balls. Look at the names being bandied about here, after all.

You might not be saying Garcia doesn't have value but this discussion started with someone calling him one of the worst players in baseball and basically saying he was a failure at age 24.

I agree that if a trade came along that truly benefited the team then you make the trade. I'd say the same for Chris Sale or Jose Abreu though in those cases... like Garcia and Rodon... the standard for making that trade would be very, very high in my book as they are the players to build your team around.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:29 PM
You might not be saying Garcia doesn't have value but this discussion started with someone calling him one of the worst players in baseball and basically saying he was a failure at age 24.


The fact is, on paper (and I do mean only on paper, though watching him play defense is scary, as well), he has been very, very bad this year thus far, and wasn't very good last year, either. Agreed that injuries have derailed him. Also, the poster in question specifically stated that he did not mean to state that Garcia was necessarily a bust. So you're adding some words to this that weren't there.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 03:43 PM
The fact is, on paper (and I do mean only on paper, though watching him play defense is scary, as well), he has been very, very bad this year thus far, and wasn't very good last year, either. Agreed that injuries have derailed him. Also, the poster in question specifically stated that he did not mean to state that Garcia was necessarily a bust. So you're adding some words to this that weren't there.

No, the poster was pretty darn clear on what they meant in calling him one of the worst in the league.

Also, I disagree that he has been "very, very bad" this year. He was actually batting over .300 most of the year until he hurt his knee. Since then he has slumped (see someone else's early post with his pre and post injury numbers).

But yes, his defense needs work. He is fast, covers a lot of ground, has an excellent arm, but appears to take bad routes to the ball and perhaps doesn't see it off the bat very well. A hard working player can be taught how to take good routes. If he doesn't see the ball well that is another story and will probably always hold him back as a defensive player.

But check back in a couple years and let's see if he is a good, bad or average defender. I'm guessing he'll be league average or better. I'm also guessing he'll be a consistent .300 hitter and that he'll develop 20-30 HR power. I think we are looking at a good young player that plays hard, has a good attitude and wants to be good. I could be wrong but I see no sign of badness in him... just youth and inexperience.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:46 PM
No, the poster was pretty darn clear on what they meant in calling him one of the worst in the league.

To quote:
No one is saying Garcia IS A BUST or he can't be good. But he has been, statistically speaking, one of the WORST PLAYERS in baseball this year. The limited offense he has given us has not made up for the horrible defense he plays. There is simply no denying that. It is what it is.

He was clear. Not calling Garcia a bust or a waste of time/space, but saying that this year has been a mess, and it has been.

By the way, I like Garcia.

Hitmen77
06-25-2015, 03:46 PM
The fact is, on paper (and I do mean only on paper, though watching him play defense is scary, as well), he has been very, very bad this year thus far, and wasn't very good last year, either. Agreed that injuries have derailed him. Also, the poster in question specifically stated that he did not mean to state that Garcia was necessarily a bust. So you're adding some words to this that weren't there.

I can't find the post, but I could swear that someone here on WSI in the last few days referred to Garcia as a "borderline bust". It wasn't the same poster, but it does sound like some people here are ready to "sell low" with Garcia.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 03:55 PM
I can't find the post, but I could swear that someone here on WSI in the last few days referred to Garcia as a "borderline bust". It wasn't the same poster, but it does sound like some people here are ready to "sell low" with Garcia.

I just think it's a bit much to call him "untouchable." It is also a bit much to call him a "bust" or even "borderline bust," at this point.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 04:19 PM
To quote:


He was clear. Not calling Garcia a bust or a waste of time/space, but saying that this year has been a mess, and it has been.

By the way, I like Garcia.

I rest my case. I really don't care what they prefixed "one of the WORST PLAYERS in baseball" with. It's rank nonsense.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 04:35 PM
I rest my case. I really don't care what they prefixed "one of the WORST PLAYERS in baseball" with. It's rank nonsense.

So you don't care that he specifically said he wasn't stating Garcia was a bust or would be a bust, and then simply stated statistical facts that Garcia has the 7th worst WAR in baseball?

If you just want to say "Screw WAR as it relates to Avi Garcia, because I think he's going to be great," then OK. But all Dome was doing was stating that, from the stats, Avi is indeed one of the worst players in baseball this season. By the way, joining him in that bottom 10 are Melky and Alexei.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 05:05 PM
It's rank nonsense. The kid just turned 24. If you are going to give up on him then you should be giving up on Rodon any minute now. And heck! Sale gave up runs his last game he's obviously over hyped and turning into a bum.

Ridiculous. The kid just turned 24 two weeks ago! Give'm a chance for cryin' out loud!

Holy cow dude, you are building quite the strawman here...

AGAIN, for like the 5th time, I AM NOT SAYING YOU GIVE UP ON HIM.

I AM SAYING THERE IS A REASON TO BE CONCERNED; HE HAS GOTTEN WORSE AND IS STATISTICALLY HAVING A VERY VERY BAD SEASON, WORSE THAN ALMOST EVERYONE IN BASEBALL.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 05:10 PM
So you don't care that he specifically said he wasn't stating Garcia was a bust or would be a bust, and then simply stated statistical facts that Garcia has the 7th worst WAR in baseball?

If you just want to say "Screw WAR as it relates to Avi Garcia, because I think he's going to be great," then OK. But all Dome was doing was stating that, from the stats, Avi is indeed one of the worst players in baseball this season. By the way, joining him in that bottom 10 are Melky and Alexei.

I give up. Its one thing to argue opinion. If you want to say "I think Avi is showing signs that he will come around, and won't be a bad player one day", I won't argue that, its an opinion and you are saying you still buy into his potential.

I am 100% cool on that.

But to sit here and say "oh hogwash, stats mean nothing, my eyes tell me he is a 5 tool player and that means he is dag gummit"...I feel like I am fighting with the Hawk. Its hard to argue with someone who admits they just are going to make things up and that is that.

If Avi, Melky and Ramirez have been so good this year (because you are throwing their bad performances out with his as well, since their WAR is all about the same)... why are we so bad?

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 05:14 PM
Holy cow dude, you are building quite the strawman here...

AGAIN, for like the 5th time, I AM NOT SAYING YOU GIVE UP ON HIM.

I AM SAYING THERE IS A REASON TO BE CONCERNED; HE HAS GOTTEN WORSE AND IS STATISTICALLY HAVING A VERY VERY BAD SEASON, WORSE THAN ALMOST EVERYONE IN BASEBALL.

And I am saying your comment is nonsense.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 05:16 PM
Also, for the record, I like Avi too and think he can be a contributer to a title team. I just think he is a 6 or 7 hitter, not a heart of the order guy. I don't think his power is every going to come (I think his hips are far to slow) and the only reason he gets compared to Miggy is because of their build.

I think hes a 275 hitter with 15-20 homer power but 25 double capability, high .700 OPS and the defense will hinder him. I don't think he is a star in the making, no one really ever did but Sox fans (he was never like a top 40 prospect or anything).

I by no means would give up on him now or dump him for nothing. If we got offered one of the top 15 prospects in baseball for him, and we didn't make the trade, we would be damned fools and maybe the laughing stock of baseball. In turn, if Hahn and called and offered Avi 1-1 for any of those prospects, he would be hung up on 3 times over.

Avi in a way is kind of the problem the Sox have offensively. They have 1 hitter who belongs in the heart. They don't have prospects like other teams do that come up offensively and really contribute.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 05:19 PM
And I am saying your comment is nonsense.

Its cool, I don't even know why we are having this debate. The White Sox are in first place and should never consider blowing it up..

See, I can ignore stats too (the standings) and make up whatever I want to be right as well!!

And I don't know why you think Chris Sale is bad because of 1 start. You said it, so I won't believe any other attempt you say to not believe it.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 05:23 PM
So you don't care that he specifically said he wasn't stating Garcia was a bust or would be a bust, and then simply stated statistical facts that Garcia has the 7th worst WAR in baseball?

If you just want to say "Screw WAR as it relates to Avi Garcia, because I think he's going to be great," then OK. But all Dome was doing was stating that, from the stats, Avi is indeed one of the worst players in baseball this season. By the way, joining him in that bottom 10 are Melky and Alexei.

Alexei is terrible this year... at the plate and in the field.

Melky has been an extreme disappointment at the plate but has been better than I expected in the field. The good news is that recently his hitting has started to pick up. Hopefully he is coming out of his funk. No sign of that with Alexei.

Garcia has had a very good season up until his knee injury. He had one brief slump during the first two months but otherwise hit quite well. Since his injury he has really struggled.

His slash line so far:
April - .309/.347/.397
May - .333/.370/.483
June - .141/.221/.256

And recall that this is in his first full year on a bad team with virtually no hitting around him (LaRoche in front, Alexei or Gillaspie behind).

I am not a huge fan of WAR. It is a useful statistic but like any statistic when taken by itself it doesn't really tell us a whole heck of a lot.

Any argument that states that Avi Garcia is one of WORST PLAYERS in baseball is rank nonsense.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 05:35 PM
I give up. Its one thing to argue opinion. If you want to say "I think Avi is showing signs that he will come around, and won't be a bad player one day", I won't argue that, its an opinion and you are saying you still buy into his potential.

I am 100% cool on that.

But to sit here and say "oh hogwash, stats mean nothing, my eyes tell me he is a 5 tool player and that means he is dag gummit"...I feel like I am fighting with the Hawk. Its hard to argue with someone who admits they just are going to make things up and that is that.

If Avi, Melky and Ramirez have been so good this year (because you are throwing their bad performances out with his as well, since their WAR is all about the same)... why are we so bad?

Well... I expected you would take exception to my comments because they were and are very harsh on your stated opinion of Avi as one of the worst players in baseball.

But it would be helpful if you paid attention to more than one statistic. One statistic by itself is meaningless. Two statistics tell us a slight bit more but are still meaningless. Three related statistics begin to allow us to triangulate and understand what is going on. It is only at three related statistics and beyond that we can begin to gain real meaning from statistics.

For instance if I tell you I've got a hitter with 34 HR's you'll think that sounds good. If I then tell you he struck out 189 times then you'll take him down a notch and think he's a free swinging power hitter but you'll still think he might be an asset. If I tell you he drove in 86 RBI then you'll think he's not as productive as he should be with 34 HR's but you still might think he is a productive asset. Three stats and you're starting to get an idea about this guy. But if I go on to tell you he hit .219 all those good feelings about the guy will start to go away and you'll realize I am talking about Adam Dunn who by the way had a WAR of 0 that year (2013). Yet, 34 HR's sounds really good all by itself.

WAR is not a bad statistic. But it is not a be-all, end-all. No statistic is.

Avi Garcia is a good young player that has shown me nothing that makes me think we should get rid of him.

And yes, actually watching players play the game is important too. Ron Karkovice's numbers were horrible but I would kiss his cleats if he could come back now and replace Tyler Flowers.

DSpivack
06-25-2015, 05:57 PM
I would worry that both Rick Hahn and Walt Jocketty ask for Corey Seager, and that the Dodgers choose the superior Johnny Cueto over Jeff Samardzija, even at the cost of adding more to the trade package. I would get aggressive and immediately offer Samardzija for Seager straight-up and hope that the Dodgers want to beat everyone else to the punch when it comes to trading for a starter.

Even if the Dodgers say no, it sets a firm asking price on Samardzija: he can be had in a one-for-one deal for a top prospect. The Reds are asking for more than that on Johnny Cueto, and the Phillies are asking for more than that on Cole Hamels.
I don''t see the Dodgers trading Seager for anyone, let alone a 3-month rental. He's maybe the best SS prospect in all of MLB now that Correa has been called up, IIRC. He'll be in LA this summer.

asindc
06-25-2015, 06:10 PM
Let's see Avi play a full season before declaring him a lousy player that should be seriously considered as trade bait as part of a blow it up plan.

Stanley
06-25-2015, 06:11 PM
I've learned a lot about baseball in the last few years reading this site, SSS, MLBT, Fangraphs, Grantland, you name it, and I feel more embarrassed every day that I see Tyler Flowers step up to the plate, Gordon Beckham hit second, and Conor Gilaspie and John Danks do anything. Not to mention Robin in the dugout, Kenny saying stupid crap every month or so, Hawk in the booth and Jerry not running the organization with a level of professionalism and dedication to winning, as opposed to nepotism and careless spending.

I went to one game this year, the Sale Vs Kluber game. I haven't watched a televised game more than a few times, nor listened to a radio broadcast for more than 15 minutes or so. And I'm not going to another game this season unless drastic changes are made to this team, organization and broadcasting team. Things have been embarrassing for too many years, and with so many offensive holes on the MLB squad and in the minors, this HAS to be the last year where they attempt to patch and paint a roster to the playoffs. I really don't see how that can seriously be argued.

Everyone on the team should be available. Go get a kings ransom for sale in a 3 or 4 team deal. There is no reason to keep Sale around on a losing team, other than to please investors or sponsors or meatheads. It doesn't make sense to trade Sale and not Abreu, so do that too. Please. Because I can't force myself to watch/listen anymore. I can't keep reading these sites and watch intelligent people argue in circles and keep staring into the abyss and pretend I have hope for this team and that they can turn things around this year or next without seeing a change in organizational philosophy.

But of course none of this will happen because it hinges on the fact that nobody is interested in Melky and his contract. I'm not sure how many would be interested in Eaton and his contract at this point, either. So you're stuck with them and hope they figure it out for next year. And we get another patchwork roster full of Flowers' and Beckhams' and Gilaspies with Chris Sale at the top of the rotation and Abreu manning 1st.

So Smardzija may go. Steverson will likely go. LaRoche? It's the same thing every year. We'll be the Phillies 2.0 in no time.

All I know is it'd be easier to tear it down, blow it up, whatever...than it would be to take such an offensively inept team and attempt to turn it into a contender next year or the year after by trading for or purchasing the contracts of mediocre vets to fill all the holes.

kittle42
06-25-2015, 08:49 PM
Stanley wins the thread.

Seriously, mic drop.

Well done.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 08:56 PM
Well... I expected you would take exception to my comments because they were and are very harsh on your stated opinion of Avi as one of the worst players in baseball.

But it would be helpful if you paid attention to more than one statistic. One statistic by itself is meaningless. Two statistics tell us a slight bit more but are still meaningless. Three related statistics begin to allow us to triangulate and understand what is going on. It is only at three related statistics and beyond that we can begin to gain real meaning from statistics.

For instance if I tell you I've got a hitter with 34 HR's you'll think that sounds good. If I then tell you he struck out 189 times then you'll take him down a notch and think he's a free swinging power hitter but you'll still think he might be an asset. If I tell you he drove in 86 RBI then you'll think he's not as productive as he should be with 34 HR's but you still might think he is a productive asset. Three stats and you're starting to get an idea about this guy. But if I go on to tell you he hit .219 all those good feelings about the guy will start to go away and you'll realize I am talking about Adam Dunn who by the way had a WAR of 0 that year (2013). Yet, 34 HR's sounds really good all by itself.

WAR is not a bad statistic. But it is not a be-all, end-all. No statistic is.

Avi Garcia is a good young player that has shown me nothing that makes me think we should get rid of him.

And yes, actually watching players play the game is important too. Ron Karkovice's numbers were horrible but I would kiss his cleats if he could come back now and replace Tyler Flowers.

The Adam Dunn WAR season was more valuable to the team than what AVI is doing. Think about that.

I am sorry, I did not make Avi have a bad year, I promise you. I didn't make him slow in the OF, and take bad routes, and not cover ground, and not walk, and strike out at an Adam Dunn esque clip. I didn't make him have a bad year.

If you want to look at offensively, fine, we can look at a stat that doesnt account for the runs he is costing us in the field. His Value over Replacement Player is 2.3, very poor. Who has a 2.4 VORP? Alejandro De Aza...

Now try and stick with me here...

I am not saying I would not take Avi long term. But he is entering the point where its time to show something. He isn't a rookie. He is a young kid, he can still be fine. But he is getting up there in career plate appearances, he has over a full seasons worth already. His next 400 have to be really, really strong.

ricker182
06-25-2015, 09:06 PM
I simply do not trust this organization to get quality, top prospects for Sale. Nor develop young talent into MLB stars.

Brian26
06-25-2015, 09:11 PM
BA was a failure from the start.

Except for the three hits, including two homers, in the his fifth major league game, against King Felix. After that, he wasn't worth much though.

Domeshot17
06-25-2015, 09:14 PM
Except for the three hits, including two homers, in the his fifth major league game, against King Felix. After that, he wasn't worth much though.

Hey, we can't forget his single biggest contribution in team history... the diving catch to seal the black out game!

SI1020
06-25-2015, 09:36 PM
Anything is possible money can get you through a lot of issues...however it's always been my contention that if some how the Sox were to leave, the American League would not simply "give up" the third biggest market in the country to the National League.

They'd put another team back into town one way or another.

Lip I don't think they would. If the Sox ever leave for whatever reason the Cubs will have the town all to themselves as long as baseball lasts as a game people follow. I remember when the Sox were ticketed to Seattle and Charley Finley wanted to move his A's to Chicago. It went over like a lead balloon among Sox fans. Chicago is not the big dog it once was. There have been massive demographic shifts in my lifetime. It is not written in stone that the Sox will always be in Chicago or that Chicago will always have 2 baseball teams. I remember when New York went from a 3 team town to a only having the Yankees.

soxnut1018
06-25-2015, 09:46 PM
White Sox Baseball: Rank Nonsense

Tragg
06-25-2015, 09:57 PM
I think they can keep their few really good players and retool. You can do a lot with a few good ones and a bunch of guys with .700-.750 OPS around them who can defend and with a good bullpen.
But that's not what the Sox do.
They just botched it.
Just to name a couple:

They sign guys in their 30s who are in decline or likely to decline. (note that Sox signed 32 year old Melky who is a bad defender and lost a draft pick; the Astros signed 29 year old Rasmus who can defend and didn't cost a pick)
They put $6 million into utility infielders.
And then the manager and coaches, roster management, lack of attention to defense.
It can be done - it was just botched.
But July allows you a chance to redeem mistakes.
So at this point:
Can you get a young catcher or 3B or OF for Shark?
Can you get one of those for Duke + Laroche?
Can you get rid of Melky's contract for $.50 on the dollar?
If you can, a good bit of salary will have been cleared, 2 holes legitimately plugged. With the cleared money, plug the 3rd one.
Now get a pen with the best 6 or 7 relievers you can find. Audition them from July-September.
You play 2B and SS defense first, unless you get lucky and find some O.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 10:11 PM
But he is entering the point where its time to show something. He isn't a rookie.

And this is why I say nonsense. He turned 24 2 weeks ago and has yet to play 1 full season. I find your position and that of the one or two others that have made similar statements down on Avi to be absolutely mind boggling.

Andrew C White
06-25-2015, 10:13 PM
White Sox Baseball: Rank Nonsense

Now *THIS* is a statement I think we can all agree with!

amsteel
06-26-2015, 06:44 AM
After Jeff, the highest priority contract to move is definitely Robertson. 4 year closer contracts are inherently stupid and I'm guessing as he gets older and drops a few MPH off that cutter and it flattens out...yikes.

TomBradley72
06-26-2015, 07:19 AM
I still like Avi- I think he's ideally a LF in the long run- love his attitude, his work ethic- when he's been healthy- he's looked pretty good to me.

Huge respect for the way he came back from the injury last year.

kobo
06-26-2015, 07:33 AM
Alexei is terrible this year... at the plate and in the field.

Melky has been an extreme disappointment at the plate but has been better than I expected in the field. The good news is that recently his hitting has started to pick up. Hopefully he is coming out of his funk. No sign of that with Alexei.

Garcia has had a very good season up until his knee injury. He had one brief slump during the first two months but otherwise hit quite well. Since his injury he has really struggled.

His slash line so far:
April - .309/.347/.397
May - .333/.370/.483
June - .141/.221/.256

And recall that this is in his first full year on a bad team with virtually no hitting around him (LaRoche in front, Alexei or Gillaspie behind).

I am not a huge fan of WAR. It is a useful statistic but like any statistic when taken by itself it doesn't really tell us a whole heck of a lot.

Any argument that states that Avi Garcia is one of WORST PLAYERS in baseball is rank nonsense.
This is rank nonsense. You're choosing to ignore statistical evidence in favor of what you are seeing with your eyes, your feelings and some inane notion that his age has something to do with his performance. I don't care what excuses you want to use for him, right now at this point in time Avi Garcia is not a good baseball player. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE WILL BE THIS WAY FOREVER. Maybe the knee injury is still bothering him. Maybe the league has figured him out and he hasn't adjusted back. Maybe he's just not a good baseball player. Who knows right now. But don't tell people their arguments are "rank nonsense" simply because you are choosing to disregard stats that counter your opinion.

amsteel
06-26-2015, 07:48 AM
This is rank nonsense. You're choosing to ignore statistical evidence in favor of what you are seeing with your eyes, your feelings and some inane notion that his age has something to do with his performance. I don't care what excuses you want to use for him, right now at this point in time Avi Garcia is not a good baseball player. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE WILL BE THIS WAY FOREVER. Maybe the knee injury is still bothering him. Maybe the league has figured him out and he hasn't adjusted back. Maybe he's just not a good baseball player. Who knows right now. But don't tell people their arguments are "rank nonsense" simply because you are choosing to disregard stats that counter your opinion.

He may not be the worst player in baseball, but he certainly is playing like one of the worst. Add in his (limited) history and there's plenty of justifiable doubt as to whether he'll reach the potential many have assumed is his ironclad destiny.

And anyone who would like to point out his April and May of this year as an example of what he can do I'll kindly refer you to the 0.403 BABIP he had during that stretch.

kobo
06-26-2015, 07:48 AM
And this is why I say nonsense. He turned 24 2 weeks ago and has yet to play 1 full season. I find your position and that of the one or two others that have made similar statements down on Avi to be absolutely mind boggling.
Age has absolutely nothing to do with ability. What's the excuse going to be next year if he's performing the same? That he's 25?

Maybe a new manager can get more out of him, because I don't think the current staff is getting the best out of anyone not named Chris Sale. But if that doesn't happen then they should move on.

The bottom line here is that this organization is in such a mess right now that there really is no such thing as an untouchable. I love Sale but he's also the guy who could bring back a tremendous package in a trade. The Sox need to decide ASAP what direction they're going in the next couple years. Either they continue with this patchwork approach or they go full rebuild. I don't buy the BS about Sox fans not supporting a rebuilding team. I think more Sox fans would support that approach than the current one because at least fans would know there is a direction. Then they can stop with all the stupid marketing slogans every year and start focusing on the team and the players and promoting them.

SI1020
06-26-2015, 08:04 AM
Alexei is terrible this year... at the plate and in the field.

Melky has been an extreme disappointment at the plate but has been better than I expected in the field. The good news is that recently his hitting has started to pick up. Hopefully he is coming out of his funk. No sign of that with Alexei.

Garcia has had a very good season up until his knee injury. He had one brief slump during the first two months but otherwise hit quite well. Since his injury he has really struggled.

His slash line so far:
April - .309/.347/.397
May - .333/.370/.483
June - .141/.221/.256

And recall that this is in his first full year on a bad team with virtually no hitting around him (LaRoche in front, Alexei or Gillaspie behind).

I am not a huge fan of WAR. It is a useful statistic but like any statistic when taken by itself it doesn't really tell us a whole heck of a lot.

Any argument that states that Avi Garcia is one of WORST PLAYERS in baseball is rank nonsense. I am not a big fan either but you must realize that is sacrilege. I like DWAR the least of all and according to DWAR Avi is about as good a right fielder as I am. Avi's stats went off a cliff after his injury. That has to be taken into consideration when rating him among "the worst in baseball." As for WAR I have no doubt that this site is full of people who can easily calculate BA, FA, ERA, etc. etc. How many even know what constitutes WAR and how to calculate it? Know how many revisions it has undergone? How it came about after Bill James' original Total Baseball Ratings? Anyway it's a losing debate. I expect some day standings will be according to Pythagorean W-L rather than real ones. As for Avi which ball player is he? The one who showed great promise in April and May or the one now mired in an extended slump.

Maximo
06-26-2015, 08:24 AM
I still like Avi- I think he's ideally a LF in the long run- love his attitude, his work ethic- when he's been healthy- he's looked pretty good to me.

Huge respect for the way he came back from the injury last year.

Which is why I am still in his corner. However, he's beginning to take on an eerie resemblance to Carlos Quentin. His ability to stay healthy concerns me.

Tragg
06-26-2015, 10:54 AM
Which is why I am still in his corner. However, he's beginning to take on an eerie resemblance to Carlos Quentin. His ability to stay healthy concerns me.

Quentin raked the living hell out of the ball the second he was on the White Sox. Way to early to give up on Avi, but he needs to improve a lot to be a real asset and legitimate corner outfielder. He's young, hasn't had a full season - way too early to give up. Certainly at current levels he's good enough for this team, though.

Andrew C White
06-26-2015, 11:40 AM
This is rank nonsense. You're choosing to ignore statistical evidence in favor of what you are seeing with your eyes, your feelings and some inane notion that his age has something to do with his performance. I don't care what excuses you want to use for him, right now at this point in time Avi Garcia is not a good baseball player. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE WILL BE THIS WAY FOREVER. Maybe the knee injury is still bothering him. Maybe the league has figured him out and he hasn't adjusted back. Maybe he's just not a good baseball player. Who knows right now. But don't tell people their arguments are "rank nonsense" simply because you are choosing to disregard stats that counter your opinion.

No, sorry, wrong. I have already posted statistical evidence to support what I see on the field. The argument that Avi is a bad baseball player is silly at best, ignorant most likely and rank nonsense at worst.

The only stat I have seen anyone put forward to support the silly notion that Avi is a bad baseball player is WAR and I've already put forward a strong explanation that relying on one statistic is a mistake as one statistic by itself is always meaningless. WAR in particular is rather subjective. It is a useful statistic but not a determinative one. Actually production is much more determinative and Avi's actual production was pretty good, though not All-Star, prior to his knee injury.

I would argue that it is you and those holding the silly position you hold that are ignoring the statistical as well as visual evidence. It's really rather mind boggling to watch any of you doing it.

kittle42
06-26-2015, 11:46 AM
The only stat I have seen anyone put forward to support the silly notion that Avi is a bad baseball player is WAR and I've already put forward a strong explanation that relying on one statistic is a mistake as one statistic by itself is always meaningless. WAR in particular is rather subjective. It is a useful statistic but not a determinative one. Actually production is much more determinative and Avi's actual production was pretty good, though not All-Star, prior to his knee injury.

I think I can cut through all this.

You put little to no stock in anything Avi has done since he returned from his injury because he may very well still be injured. Thus, your assessment is based solely upon his potential as shown by what he has done at the times he is not injured. I don't think any of us can disagree that his splits pre-injury show that he was performing quite well offensively. I'm sure even his oWAR splits show that.

Others are looking at the whole picture and not just discounting his post-injury performance out of hand - they are wondering which is the real Avi and whether or not we do have another oft-injured, high-potential guy like Quentin on our hands.

No one is giving up on him.

Some of us believe he should be close to untouchable. This is based on the promise he has shown, his youth, and the hope he can get/remain healthy Others of us do not, looking at the entire statistical picture as well as his health.

That about sums it up.

Andrew C White
06-26-2015, 11:53 AM
Had someone put forth the concern that Avi might be going down the path of oft injured players such as Quentin I wouldn't have said a word. I think it's a little too early for that concern as well but it is a valid concern.

But that is not the argument I read and objected to. The argument was stated variously as "He's turning into a bust" and "He's one of the worst players in baseball." Those statements are both demonstrably false and downright silly.

If one wants to argue that he has stuff to learn, that his defense needs work, that he might not turn out to be as good as we had hoped, that his performance has fallen off a cliff since his knee injury... again I wouldn't have said a word because those are all valid statements if on the worry-wartish side.

But that is not what was said and not what I have been arguing against.

Domeshot17
06-26-2015, 12:28 PM
ok, you want more than WAR

VORP - his value over replacement player - very very low (2.2) and lower than Alejando De Aza, thats how bad he has been (and VORP does not even take into consideration his defense!!!!)

His Weighted Runs Created (adjusted) is very bad

His UZR says he plays RF like Daver's ass chews bubble gum

his UZR/150 and DEF on Fangraphs don't get any kinder

even during his very good april, he was a sub .800 OPS which isn't making up for his defense.

Kobo nailed it. No one is saying he can't be a good baseball player. What we are saying is he has not been a good baseball player.

You can sit here and argue the sky is not blue, and the world can show you evidence after evidence it is, but at the end of the day, if you want to ignore it, go for it, it is your right as a fan, it doesn't make you right, but it certainly is your right.

kittle42
06-26-2015, 12:37 PM
Kobo nailed it. No one is saying he can't be a good baseball player. What we are saying is he has not been a good baseball player.

You can sit here and argue the sky is not blue, and the world can show you evidence after evidence it is, but at the end of the day, if you want to ignore it, go for it, it is your right as a fan, it doesn't make you right, but it certainly is your right.

I lean toward agreeing with this. Sorry, Andrew - you're sounding a little like Hawk!

amsteel
06-26-2015, 12:44 PM
No. He doesn't have a "past performance" to discard.

I have already posted statistical evidence to support what I see on the field.

If you can't use his past performance to project him out to be a (worst case) average or below average player that his stats have shown him to be to this point in his career you certainly can't use them to confirm the purely subjective potential people see in him.

Andrew C White
06-26-2015, 01:37 PM
OK, I give up. You are right. Avi is one of the worst players in baseball and is on the cusp of being a certified bust.

Oy vey.

kittle42
06-26-2015, 03:25 PM
OK, I give up. You are right. Avi is one of the worst players in baseball and is on the cusp of being a certified bust.

Oy vey.

I don't know why you're choosing to spin the comments Dome and others have made toward this narrative you are fighting against, but everyone has been pretty clear about their feelings and it seems they need to somehow be clearer.

Andrew C White
06-26-2015, 04:00 PM
I don't know why you're choosing to spin the comments Dome and others have made toward this narrative you are fighting against, but everyone has been pretty clear about their feelings and it seems they need to somehow be clearer.

No spin at all. Exact quotes.

kittle42
06-26-2015, 07:36 PM
No spin at all. Exact quotes.

Uncle.

skobabe8
06-26-2015, 08:12 PM
Blow it up. Yesterday.

I love Sale, too. But if someone is willing to give up the farm for him, you gotta talk.

graham5
06-28-2015, 04:31 AM
Haven't posted for a while, but feeling a bit despairing this season - I think we'll have had one winning season in the last five years after this one?

I'm no expert but will share my views anyway.

Got to get rid of Ventura, the attitude of the team isn't good enough (perfect example of this is Eaton not running down to first on Wednesday, he should have been pulled out of the game for that).

Trade wise, I'm not a blow up kind of guy. I think you've got to shop Robertson, Samardzija, LaRoche, they're all players with reasonable trade value that are wasted with the Sox right now. Between the current roster and the farm season our pitching is looking healthy so the obvious focus needs to be on position players.

I'm happy with Abreu, Eaton and Garcia are better than their numbers this season, I can live with Melky and Gillaspie too. I don't understand why Micah Johnson isn't getting more opportunity to play for the big league team? So in my view the most urgent positions are SS and C, also DH.

I think the future is bright, but this year - sheesh.