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View Full Version : What could the Sox learn from the Hawks' success?


kittle42
06-18-2015, 12:30 PM
The Sox could really learn something from what the Blackhawks have done in this town. 15 years ago, Sports Illustrated named them the Worst Franchise in Professional Sports. They had a change in ownership. New ownership immediately changed management, and changed its approach to the fans, actively trying to make *new* fans while not forgetting those of us who suffered through the decade-plus of slop where there were about 5,000 of us in the UC for a game.

They started building a franchise with people *experienced* at doing so. They won. They built on that popularity. They won again. The city really started going nuts. Then, they won AGAIN.

There will always be fans who hop on board when a team is hot and then hop off. But there will be fans who becomes interested in a team, a sport even, because of a team's success and resulting popularity and never lose that connection in their lives. That is what we are seeing a TON of now. Hockey was dead in this Original Six town a decade ago. Now, look at what's happening.

Irishsox1
06-18-2015, 12:59 PM
Hire a GM and then give him power to pick up the players he wants and the coach he wants. Don't keep the old GM, kick him upstairs and neuter the new GM.

Chez
06-18-2015, 01:13 PM
Open up scouting outposts in Sweden and Canada.

Rocky Soprano
06-18-2015, 01:17 PM
I think the main point is that ownership changed the management team to a team who had experience and have the same vision. To win. They didn't hire people within the family. They brought in new blood. Yet they are still an organization that takes care of their previous players/management.

They did everything to capitalize on their success and weren't just happy to win it once.

It seems that things with the Sox won't change until Jerry sells the team.

doublem23
06-18-2015, 01:22 PM
There will always be fans who hop on board when a team is hot and then hop off. But there will be fans who becomes interested in a team, a sport even, because of a team's success and resulting popularity and never lose that connection in their lives. That is what we are seeing a TON of now. Hockey was dead in this Original Six town a decade ago. Now, look at what's happening.

The Blackhawks were dead, but I don't know if hockey was. I remember when the Wolves were founded in 1994, which was basically right at the beginning of the Hawks descent into true irrelevance, they were always a huge draw. They have consistently been one of the most successful IHL and now AHL teams in terms of attendance, media packaging (I think they'e one of only a handful of minor league hockey teams to have all their games televised).

As for what the Sox can learn directly from them, I don't know, win a lot and people will jump back on the bandwagon? It's one thing if the Sox were clearly an incompetent organization, say along the lines of the Raiders in the NFL, but there were a lot of pundits from various baseball disciplines who thought the moves the Sox made this off-season were very savvy. And things continue to not work for them, I don't know if that suggests a complete overhaul in the organization is necessary or patience until these things start to bear fruit.

LITTLE NELL
06-18-2015, 01:22 PM
Start with a new owner.
I'm curious where the White Sox rank in pro sports franchises right now.

Flight #24
06-18-2015, 01:25 PM
Posted this in another thread, but since 2001 when KW took over, Sox had drafted and developed IIRC a sum total of ZERO cornerstone position players (have done well with pitchers though). And have 2 playoff appearances (although the 1 WS).

Need to bring in a czar to run the org. Go get some old vet like a Jocketty or the guy who built the Braves of the 90s, make him president and have him pick a GM who rebuilds the org from scratch.

Trade off anyone but Sale/Rodon/Abreu/Garcia and hope like hell you have the right guy and can turn it around in 3-4 yrs.

doublem23
06-18-2015, 01:28 PM
Start with a new owner.
I'm curious where the White Sox rank in pro sports franchises right now.

Rank in terms of what? Overall value? Forbes says the Sox are the 16th most valuable MLB team right now, at $975 million.

http://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/

JB98
06-18-2015, 01:31 PM
The Blackhawks brought in Scotty Bowman to be a senior adviser and Joel Quenneville to be the head coach. Doesn't hurt to bring in folks who have had tremendous success in other organizations, you know? Even if it meant sweeping aside longtime organization men like Pulford, Tallon and Savard.

I think groupthink rules the roost in the Sox organization. Too many people of the same mindset who have been around for a long time. I think that was once true of the Blackhawks, as well, but obviously things changed under new ownership.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 01:35 PM
I think groupthink rules the roost in the Sox organization. Too many people of the same mindset who have been around for a long time. I think that was once true of the Blackhawks, as well, but obviously things changed under new ownership.

I agree with this. New blood is needed from successful, winning organizations that can look at the Sox issues with a fresh set of eyes and no preconceived notions.

The other thing is to streamline how decisions are made and the how the front office is run. No additional layers between the owner and the G.M. that the G.M. has to go through.

It's their call, period. If it works they stay employed if not after a reasonable time you bring in a new G.M.

The first step the Sox have to do is admit they have a problem or problems to themselves...once that is established then they can begin the process of bringing in new, fresh, successful baseball minds.

Lip

OldRomanPizza
06-18-2015, 01:36 PM
Draft two Top 3 megastars to go along with a handful of other star players.

captain54
06-18-2015, 01:37 PM
:cool:

It's one thing if the Sox were clearly an incompetent organization, say along the lines of the Raiders in the NFL, but there were a lot of pundits from various baseball disciplines who thought the moves the Sox made this off-season were very savvy. And things continue to not work for them.

So the Sox are clearly not an incompetent organization, but things continue to not work for them. Which one is it? It can't be both

Jerko
06-18-2015, 01:39 PM
The Hawks see a weakness, or a void, they address it. The Sox see a weakness or a void, they make excuses. The Hawks are struggling, Q changes lines. The Sox are struggling, the same losers are traipsed out in the same order for the past 4 years. That's the difference. I've never been this bored with the Sox in my life. Who cares anymore? They certainly don't seem to.

LITTLE NELL
06-18-2015, 01:59 PM
Rank in terms of what? Overall value? Forbes says the Sox are the 16th most valuable MLB team right now, at $975 million.

http://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/

I think in total franchise rankings like the one the Hawks were rated in before their great run included winning tradition, fan support, ownership, game experience etc, etc. I don't think the Sox would do well in a those rankings.
As far as franchise value for a big market club we aren't all that great, I'm sure JR is happy with the return of his 1981 investment of 20 million, but as far as I'm concerned his regime has been a pretty big failure, it it wasn't for 2005 it would be a colossal failure. In franchise value we are a lot closer to Tampa Bay than we are to the Yankees.

Noneck
06-18-2015, 02:05 PM
They can learn that the third generation of the owner is the charm. We wait for Joey.

kobo
06-18-2015, 02:14 PM
I agree with this. New blood is needed from successful, winning organizations that can look at the Sox issues with a fresh set of eyes and no preconceived notions.

The other thing is to streamline how decisions are made and the how the front office is run. No additional layers between the owner and the G.M. that the G.M. has to go through.

It's their call, period. If it works they stay employed if not after a reasonable time you bring in a new G.M.

The first step the Sox have to do is admit they had a problem or problems to themselves...once that is established then they can begin the process of bringing in new, fresh, successful baseball minds.

Lip
I don't believe that will ever happen. They'll continue to blame fans for not being supportive, have their coaches go on the radio and blame fans, tell us they only have 50 cents when they should have a dollar and all the other BS that has been spewed over the years. They won't point the finger at themselves because there is no reason to when there is no accountability. Hahn can tell the media until he's blue in the face that they're all in this together and accountable but all that means is they will find whatever excuse that doesn't reflect poorly on them to use.

This team/organization needs an identity. They need a plan and they need to explain the plan to their fans. I honestly don't know what type of team they are trying to be anymore because it seems like Hahn wants to do things one way but the KW style still rears its head. We've been fed the bull**** about not being able to do a complete rebuild because fans won't support that. Well, fans aren't supporting what you're doing now so what is there to lose at this point?

It doesn't matter at this point what they can learn. Like others have said, there won't be any real change with this team until Jerry dies or sells. Until that time we're going to see the same mediocrity year in and year out.

roylestillman
06-18-2015, 02:29 PM
Its amazing how similar the Sox are right now to how the Hawks were at the time of Bill Wirtz's death. It's an organization that made loyalty a number one priority over competency. It had a GM that was that was a company guy. A coach that was a former hero player. A front office that was more concerned about friends and family than widening its fan base.

The Sox can learn from Rocky:

Make baseball talent evaluation your number 1 priority in hiring your GM.

Get an experienced manager and coaches with proven track records that actually won a World Series or two.

Develop players personalities that make them marketable, relatable, and accessible. (I know this is touchy, but emphasize some mastering of the English language. You don't hear Hossa, the Swedes or Vermette speaking through an interpreter.)

Build a cohesive marketing plan around player personalities and the game. Mix up a tired promotion schedule. Freshen up the in stadium fan experience, beyond surveys. Fire your brother if the food is not up to par.

Make fans #1.

WIN!

Jerko
06-18-2015, 02:31 PM
The whole organization is lazy. I'll use the Hawks as an example again. My Hawks ST plan goes back to the dark days.............and I was never met with a closed concession stand, a locked bathroom, or had last call called at the club 10 minutes after the game ended (Had ketel 1 passes back then). Same with the bar and grill. They tried to stay open one winter, did NOTHING to promote themselves, then took their ball and went home when nobody showed up at the place. That's how the Sox are. They figure their mere existence should be enough for us to just show up and they do the very least they can to get by. And I love going to games. Imagine if I didn't. The whole product is so stale.

KRS1
06-18-2015, 02:42 PM
It's been mentioned, but JR needs to rid himself of his cronies and have someone in charge of actual reform, evolution and substantial change from the top down.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 02:55 PM
The Hawks see a weakness, or a void, they address it. The Sox see a weakness or a void, they make excuses. The Hawks are struggling, Q changes lines. The Sox are struggling, the same losers are traipsed out in the same order for the past 4 years. That's the difference.

Good point.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 02:58 PM
They can learn that the third generation of the owner is the charm. We wait for Joey.

Don't know if you were being facetious or tongue in cheek but JR has made it clear publicly he's already told his family to sell the franchise after he's gone. There were majors stories in the newspapers last summer I think what his statement came out and what the consequences could be.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 03:02 PM
I don't believe that will ever happen. They'll continue to blame fans for not being supportive, have their coaches go on the radio and blame fans, tell us they only have 50 cents when they should have a dollar and all the other BS that has been spewed over the years. They won't point the finger at themselves because there is no reason to when there is no accountability. Hahn can tell the media until he's blue in the face that they're all in this together and accountable but all that means is they will find whatever excuse that doesn't reflect poorly on them to use.

This team/organization needs an identity. They need a plan and they need to explain the plan to their fans. I honestly don't know what type of team they are trying to be anymore because it seems like Hahn wants to do things one way but the KW style still rears its head. We've been fed the bull**** about not being able to do a complete rebuild because fans won't support that. Well, fans aren't supporting what you're doing now so what is there to lose at this point?

It doesn't matter at this point what they can learn. Like others have said, there won't be any real change with this team until Jerry dies or sells. Until that time we're going to see the same mediocrity year in and year out.

Another well thought post in my opinion. Apparently Cooper went on the radio again just last week and questioned why fans weren't coming out to watch Sale pitch.

They can't be that stupid can they to keep making the same mistakes and not learning from them?

Lip

Noneck
06-18-2015, 03:02 PM
Don't know if you were being facetious or tongue in cheek but JR has made it clear publicly he's already told his family to sell the franchise after he's gone. There were majors stories in the newspapers last summer I think what his statement came out and what the consequences could be.

Lip


Partially facetious, Ive seen too many wishes ignored after one departs.

kittle42
06-18-2015, 03:09 PM
I'm really appreciating all the points made here. Some well thought out posts, and passionate, for sure.

white sox bill
06-18-2015, 04:04 PM
Another well thought post in my opinion. Apparently Cooper went on the radio again just last week and questioned why fans weren't coming out to watch Sale pitch.

They can't be that stupid can they to keep making the same mistakes and not learning from them?

Lip
I would love to see him pitch, its the other 24 dead men walking on the team I'm not paying to see.....

ricker182
06-18-2015, 05:00 PM
Another well thought post in my opinion. Apparently Cooper went on the radio again just last week and questioned why fans weren't coming out to watch Sale pitch.

They can't be that stupid can they to keep making the same mistakes and not learning from them?

Lip

We need to dump EVERYONE on the staff. Including Kenny.

I'll give Hahn a pass. He's still new and it takes time to build a team.
I still am of the mindset this team is underperforming.
This is a .500 team. We should be right there.

johnny bench
06-18-2015, 05:04 PM
The Blackhawks brought in Scotty Bowman to be a senior adviser

This. 14 Stanley Cups as a coach and executive. But it's revealing how many times Bowman had to find another job because he didn't see eye to eye with management. Very few, if any owners in any sport really give a **** about winning. Instead, their priorities are being in control, maintaining a positive image, making money and minimizing costs.

I agree that Sox ownership sucks. But they are not an outlier. They are just as bad as just about every other son of bitch owner.

But I love baseball. So I go to as many games as I can.

Domeshot17
06-18-2015, 05:11 PM
Rocky Wirtz said during a radio interview something brilliant:

I am going to summarize, but quote it, but its not word for word

"I took what I knew worked at our beverage company and put it in place with the Hawks. I hired people smarter than me and got out of the way and let them do their jobs. I will promise you very few ones, but one, I will never be the GM"

He lets his guys do their jobs, he manages those guys.

The Sox do not have that. The sox have a failed scouting department, a failed marketing department, a failed development department.

Put it this way... the Hawks went and poached McDonough from the Cubs... and I know everyone here hates him... but he was doing great things there ,and then started doing great things immediate with the Hawks.

Winning cures all, but they are building a core of the next wave of fans. An entire generation, nationally. The sox can't even get local people to care about them.

cards press box
06-18-2015, 05:26 PM
This. 14 Stanley Cups as a coach and executive. But it's revealing how many times Bowman had to find another job because he didn't see eye to eye with management. Very few, if any owners in any sport really give a **** about winning. Instead, their priorities are being in control, maintaining a positive image, making money and minimizing costs.

I agree that Sox ownership sucks. But they are not an outlier. They are just as bad as just about every other son of bitch owner.

But I love baseball. So I go to as many games as I can.

Man, this is totally spot on. Sports owners are very successful, Type A people who are very accustomed to exercising complete control and getting their way: right, wrong or indifferent. You know, it's their way or the highway.

Give Rocky Wirtz a whole lot of credit -- he is unusual for an owner. Most are so into the concept of control that they could never hire a general manager and get out of his way.

Wonder if Rocky has any interest in buying the Sox. That would be wonderful.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 05:36 PM
Rocky Wirtz said during a radio interview something brilliant:

I am going to summarize, but quote it, but its not word for word

"I took what I knew worked at our beverage company and put it in place with the Hawks. I hired people smarter than me and got out of the way and let them do their jobs. I will promise you very few ones, but one, I will never be the GM"

He lets his guys do their jobs, he manages those guys.

The Sox do not have that. The sox have a failed scouting department, a failed marketing department, a failed development department.

Put it this way... the Hawks went and poached McDonough from the Cubs... and I know everyone here hates him... but he was doing great things there ,and then started doing great things immediate with the Hawks.

Winning cures all, but they are building a core of the next wave of fans. An entire generation, nationally. The sox can't even get local people to care about them.

Wirtz is smart enough to know that as smart as he may be in business or in whiskey distributing he doesn't really know hockey so he stays out of the way. Read the same thing in S.I. years ago talking about the success of the 49'ers. That was one of their ownerships guiding principles...hire good people and stay out of their way.

JR is a hands on owner who right or wrong feels he has a place in making baseball decisions.

Lip

Moses_Scurry
06-18-2015, 06:18 PM
Draft two Top 3 megastars to go along with a handful of other star players.

You have this in teal, but it is a very important point for this discussion. The Hawks essentially had to fall to the bottom of the barrel to be able get those guys that played a HUGE role in their turnaround.

The Sox problem is very similar to the Bears' problem. They are very rarely the best team, and they are very rarely the worst team. As a result, they get draft picks in the 10-20 range, which make it more difficult to get those superstars.

The Hawks are more like the Nationals. They were awful for numerous years. They were the worst team in baseball for 2 straight years! However, those awful years gave them Strasburg, Harper, Rendon and others. Now they are the cream of the crop.

Unfortunately for all of us. The White Sox (and Bears) still have yet to be at the bottom of the barrel, so we have to endure more years of this, unlike our cubbie-loving foes. They've been to the bottom, but now they are on the upswing.

Fortunately for us, being at the bottom is not a requirement for being successful. Many teams have sustained success without huge down periods. The problem is that those teams have developed position players very well. I fear that if the Sox did decide to do a real cub-like tank job, they will have an extended time in the gutter like the Pirates or Royals due to their inability to develop position players.

As a TL;DR version, the Hawks are where they are largely because they were godawful for a really long time. The White Sox have been mediocre to bad, but have not been godawful for a really long time. I'm not getting any younger, so I'd rather not have to sit through 5 years that result in top 3 draft picks.

Dan H
06-18-2015, 06:25 PM
When Rocky Wirtz took over, he saw that it was time to make peace with the fans and the past. He put home games on TV. He brought Bobby Hull back in the organization, not caring that Hull left the Hawks after the 1972 season to go to a newly formed league. He just made the team more fan-friendly.

Of course, these things didn't directly lead to the winning. But Rocky had a winning mindset, and these things were an indication of that. The Hawks, a great and proud team of the Sixties and early Seventies, had been in ruins. He changed so many things. Now the Black Hawks are being called a dynasty.

The real question is do the White Sox want to learn or do they just want to make the same mistakes and expect everything to work out? And then if things don't work out, blame the fans?

MUsoxfan
06-18-2015, 07:06 PM
You have this in teal, but it is a very important point for this discussion. The Hawks essentially had to fall to the bottom of the barrel to be able get those guys that played a HUGE role in their turnaround.

The Sox problem is very similar to the Bears' problem. They are very rarely the best team, and they are very rarely the worst team. As a result, they get draft picks in the 10-20 range, which make it more difficult to get those superstars.

The Hawks are more like the Nationals. They were awful for numerous years. They were the worst team in baseball for 2 straight years! However, those awful years gave them Strasburg, Harper, Rendon and others. Now they are the cream of the crop.

Unfortunately for all of us. The White Sox (and Bears) still have yet to be at the bottom of the barrel, so we have to endure more years of this, unlike our cubbie-loving foes. They've been to the bottom, but now they are on the upswing.

Fortunately for us, being at the bottom is not a requirement for being successful. Many teams have sustained success without huge down periods. The problem is that those teams have developed position players very well. I fear that if the Sox did decide to do a real cub-like tank job, they will have an extended time in the gutter like the Pirates or Royals due to their inability to develop position players.

As a TL;DR version, the Hawks are where they are largely because they were godawful for a really long time. The White Sox have been mediocre to bad, but have not been godawful for a really long time. I'm not getting any younger, so I'd rather not have to sit through 5 years that result in top 3 draft picks.

Apples and oranges when it comes to drafts in different sports

MLB draft is more of a crapshoot than any other. Also, even if the Sox were in position to have drafted Strasburg, Harper, et al there's about a 0% chance that they would draft them because they wouldn't pay them

If there was no cap in the NHL, the Hawks would be the equivalent of the Canadian National Team because almost every single player wants to play here. Even without the Cups, the culture of the organIzation is tremendously appealing to every free agent

The opposite is true for the Sox

captain54
06-18-2015, 07:07 PM
And then if things don't work out, blame the fans?

Of course, this year it's the players fault for not producing, according to the media spin from Hahn and KW…

In other words, no accountability from any of the decision makers who are directly responsible for this mess.. You would HOPE that on paper, roster additions pan out, but when you look at their season averages, they are, for the most part.. just that. Averages.. bad years and good years..

How is it that some organizations have rosters filled with a great percentage of players who are consistent? year after year?

Hitmen77
06-19-2015, 03:04 PM
Here's an article about following the Hawks' model:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150618/sports/150618856/

Interesting stat about Sox first round picks between 1990 (Alex Fernandez) and 2010 (Chris Sale).

soltrain21
06-19-2015, 03:34 PM
Wirtz is smart enough to know that as smart as he may be in business or in whiskey distributing he doesn't really know hockey so he stays out of the way. Read the same thing in S.I. years ago talking about the success of the 49'ers. That was one of their ownerships guiding principles...hire good people and stay out of their way.

JR is a hands on owner who right or wrong feels he has a place in making baseball decisions.

Lip

Your 49ers example is probably not a good one anymore.

tstrike2000
06-19-2015, 05:16 PM
What could the Sox learn? Quite simply, get the best people available for the job.

doublem23
06-19-2015, 05:27 PM
What could the Sox learn? Quite simply, get the best people available for the job.

That's, of course, all subjective, as well. How many times have our hockey experts here clamored for firing Quenneville because they thought they could manage the lines better than he?

Lip Man 1
06-19-2015, 05:31 PM
Here's an article about following the Hawks' model:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150618/sports/150618856/

Interesting stat about Sox first round picks between 1990 (Alex Fernandez) and 2010 (Chris Sale).

I agree with the column's point myself. Change is needed and it needs to come from outside "the family."

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-19-2015, 05:33 PM
Your 49ers example is probably not a good one anymore.

The S.I. article ran in the 80's or early 90's as I recall when San Francisco was still dominating the NFL. That was one of the points ownership brought up in the story. Hire the best people, let them do their jobs and stay completely out of their way.

Lip

tsoxman
06-19-2015, 06:54 PM
And as I'm reading this, I get an email from the Sox reminding me of the upcoming weekend to commemorate the 2005 WC. This is another problem, IMO. Too much reliance on the fleeting, though enormous, success in 2005.

When I was returning home from the parade in 2005, I pondered what would the future of the White Sox be. My concern at the time was that Williams, Guiilen and the Sox lucked into a championship that year and that they would be given was too much latitude going forward for their success....And the results would be disastrous.

Boy, I wish I wasn't right, but that's exactly what happened. We will be paying for that 2005 success for many years to come.

Spaceman_Spiff
06-19-2015, 07:27 PM
As much as people want to talk about the drafting of Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane the real success for the Blackhawks has been focusing on the development of talent to surround them with. This has allowed them to weather one significant cap crunch after their first Stanley Cup and helped them replenish the team's depth in order to continue to be a championship caliber team.

What may be the worst thing for the White Sox is now draft rules, ones Jerry Reinsdorf no doubt played a significant role in implementing, will make it harder to acquire minor league talent. Before the current CBA was signed teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City all spent heavily in drafts and now are reaping the rewards for their spending. Now, with such strict rules, all of that would be impossible. The only way to acquire the best talent in the draft is to have a worse record because with that comes a larger draft pool from which a team can spend.

So long as Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox I see nothing changing for the White Sox in terms of investing and developing the team's minor league system. New ownership is the best thing White Sox fans could hope for.

tstrike2000
06-19-2015, 08:27 PM
That's, of course, all subjective, as well. How many times have our hockey experts here clamored for firing Quenneville because they thought they could manage the lines better than he?

The grass, yes, has a tendency to be greener on the other side. Two things IMO, people who were asking for Coach Q to be fired are also many of the same people asking for Crawford to be traded when we had absolutely nothing in the pipeline....after they both won a Stanley Cup. We're talking certifiably crazy thinking. Comparing what Robin Ventura has done compared to Coach Q is like comparing Frank Thomas to Mike Caruso.

DSpivack
06-19-2015, 11:11 PM
As much as people want to talk about the drafting of Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane the real success for the Blackhawks has been focusing on the development of talent to surround them with. This has allowed them to weather one significant cap crunch after their first Stanley Cup and helped them replenish the team's depth in order to continue to be a championship caliber team.

What may be the worst thing for the White Sox is now draft rules, ones Jerry Reinsdorf no doubt played a significant role in implementing, will make it harder to acquire minor league talent. Before the current CBA was signed teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, and Kansas City all spent heavily in drafts and now are reaping the rewards for their spending. Now, with such strict rules, all of that would be impossible. The only way to acquire the best talent in the draft is to have a worse record because with that comes a larger draft pool from which a team can spend.

So long as Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox I see nothing changing for the White Sox in terms of investing and developing the team's minor league system. New ownership is the best thing White Sox fans could hope for.

Before the current CBA Reinsdorf was one of the most hardline owners when it came to refusing to go above slot, seemingly out of spite over selection of talent. Without those changes I'm not sure the Sox would have drafted Rodon (or even Fulmer?). Now, their draft spending is about on par with the rest of MLB, at least as I understand, because the slot signings are that stricter.

That said, it doesn't make acquiring talent easy, as...

Here's an article about following the Hawks' model:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150618/sports/150618856/

Interesting stat about Sox first round picks between 1990 (Alex Fernandez) and 2010 (Chris Sale).

...The reason I don't think this comparison exactly works across the two sports is because building a team and acquiring and drafting talent in MLB is arguably much harder and more complicated than in the other 3 major sports. The draft is more of a crapshoot, young talent is comparatively more raw and undeveloped, and the whole process of developing young talent that much more complex.

The comparison that may work is in ownership identifying the right personnel to put in charge. Reinsdorf is a much more hands-on owner, though, for both better and worse. He's not going to step aside when he's one of the most powerful and active owners in the sport. He's loyal to a fault, and very much enjoyed being in the ear of the commissioner for many years (who knows what his relationship with Manfred is).

Spaceman_Spiff
06-20-2015, 01:56 PM
Before the current CBA Reinsdorf was one of the most hardline owners when it came to refusing to go above slot, seemingly out of spite over selection of talent. Without those changes I'm not sure the Sox would have drafted Rodon (or even Fulmer?). Now, their draft spending is about on par with the rest of MLB, at least as I understand, because the slot signings are that stricter. I agree that the White Sox would not have draft Rodon because under the old system the Astros would have had no qualms to pay him what he wanted.

I wouldn't be too proud of it, but yes, the White Sox are on par now with the rest of the league in terms of spending on the draft. Cutting your opposition off at the knees tends to have that effect.

That said, it doesn't make acquiring talent easy, as... What I meant is if a team wanted to spend the money for talent, then it was easier under the old CBA to just draft the best players regardless of what their monetary demands were. Now if a team wants to draft a player with signability issues they're sacrificing the tail end of their first ten picks to draft college seniors who will sign below the recommended value of the pick in order to save money. I do not view intended consequences such as that a good thing for the game.

...The reason I don't think this comparison exactly works across the two sports is because building a team and acquiring and drafting talent in MLB is arguably much harder and more complicated than in the other 3 major sports. The draft is more of a crapshoot, young talent is comparatively more raw and undeveloped, and the whole process of developing young talent that much more complex. I agree again with you here. The only exceptions who are comparable would be college players.

So while it is more of a crapshoot having an owner unwilling to invest in the farm system in the long run does not help a team in the slightest. An overwhelming majority of players will not contribute at all to the major league team, but even that risk is worth it for the few players that will contribute.

The comparison that may work is in ownership identifying the right personnel to put in charge. Reinsdorf is a much more hands-on owner, though, for both better and worse. He's not going to step aside when he's one of the most powerful and active owners in the sport. He's loyal to a fault, and very much enjoyed being in the ear of the commissioner for many years (who knows what his relationship with Manfred is). That's the rub with Reinsdorf. Not long ago I read a book from a prominent American economist in which he looked at what caused the fall of great empires throughout history. Reinsdorf's action the last few years have all the fingerprints of a dying franchise that, rather than trying to innovate and evolve, is content to game the system to his benefit. This is why I come back to it that so long as Reinsdorf is owner, then I would not be too optimistic about the White Sox being a perennial contender.

DonnieDarko
06-20-2015, 03:34 PM
(I know this is touchy, but emphasize some mastering of the English language. You don't hear Hossa, the Swedes or Vermette speaking through an interpreter.)

To be fair, that has more to do with English being taught to them in their home countries from a young age. When they came over stateside, they already had a nice doundation to work from in their mastery of English.

But I see your point.