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View Full Version : It's time... (to fire Robin)


WhiteSoxFan84
06-16-2015, 10:25 AM
...for Robin to go.

I loved him as a player and he seems like a great guy, but this team (on paper) has too much talent to be 6 games under with no signs of life. Sadly, I know Jerry Reinsdorf is very loyal and will probably want to stick with Robin through the end of the season and that just makes me sick - because accepting failure and loyalty shouldn't be confused for one another.

Who would I want them to replace Robin with? I'm not smart enough to know who the best minds in baseball are - the most popular name is Ron Gardenhire but I would take anyone who has experience and is deemed to be the right fit by Rick Hahn and company. One name I don't want to hear about: Ozzie Guillen.

We are in a division that is full of talent:
- The Royals are proving they're legit and will be around for a while.
- The Twins are winning (somehow) way ahead of schedule and seem to have struck gold (thus far) with Paul Molitor.
- The Tigers will get healthy and rebound because they have way too much hitting and solid enough pitching to win this division.
- The Indians may never scare anyone but will continue to compete.
- The White Sox.... there's Chris Sale. There's Jose Abreu. I still have high hopes for Carlos Rodon. Avisail Garcia definitely is showing signs of being a solid player and Jose Qunitana continues to exceed expectations and should continue being a great 3rd starter. And at the tail end of our bullpen, Dave Roberston looks to be great closing out. But after that... we have at least 9 holes (starters) to fill and our farm system (although always underrated in my opinion) doesn't appear to have much to offer.

Maybe this is a result of the Hawks recent success - I want to win and win constantly. What we currently have built is a solid enough team that should be competing at least for this season. Having said that, Robin's performance over the last 250+ games (going back to the end of the 2013 season) has me concerned that he cannot maximize the potential of the team he is asked to manage.

Go Sox.

Irishsox1
06-16-2015, 10:37 AM
Robin should have been fired after last year and he's done nothing to prove that he should keep his job. He should be fired today and have an interim finish the year.

On a bigger picture, Kenny Williams needs to be let go also. Let Rick Hahn be the GM and not the sudo-assistant GM.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-16-2015, 10:50 AM
I agree, Irishsox1 - that's a name I left out: Kenny Williams. Our 2005 Championship was not a fluke - but him being given credit for building a Championship team is incorrect (it sounds odd, I know, but I feel the players went way above and beyond even Kenny's expectations).

I admire the Brewers, Padres, and any other team that has already cut ties with their managers this season. No point is slow deaths.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2015, 11:15 AM
I appreciate the sentiments but I don't expect anything to change unless this team completely goes in the tank the next few weeks (say they lose 10 of the next 12 games... something like that)

The White Sox front office and ownership dislike change and are loyal to a fault. That's a historical fact.

Robin still has two years (I think) on his deal. JR does not like to pay people to not work.

I think at the very least a complete overhaul is needed at the top of the food chain, but that's not going to happen. I'd settle for Kenny being let go or leaving on his own and there is a chance that might happen but again I don't think the odds are very good for that to take place given the closeness of him and JR over at least 20 years.

Loyalty matters more than winning / accountability to the franchise unfortunately.

And even if some changes are made, based on the track record why should anyone think the Sox will get it right in the future? Replacing Robin with say Jim Thome or another former player doesn't change the dynamic does it?

The Sox keep things "in the family" they generally promote from within or give positions to those who played for them instead of going to the top winning organizations like the Angels, Giants, Rays, Tigers, Cardinals and get their best front office folks or scouts. Those people would have new ideas and look at the problems with a different take but again the Sox simply don't do that.

I just don't see the situation changing dramatically (which is what is badly needed) even if somehow Robin is fired. Remember the Sox haven't hired a manager who managed before in the big leagues since Jeff Torborg in 1989.

Lip

amsteel
06-16-2015, 11:18 AM
Robin still has two years (I think) on his deal.

Looks like it's thru 2016.
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/chicago-white-sox/

Someone should start a countdown clock in their sig.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2015, 11:24 AM
Looks like it's thru 2016.
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/chicago-white-sox/

Someone should start a countdown clock in their sig.

So then it's the rest of the year and next year. Thank you. That clarifies things. Appreciate it.

Lip

Boondock Saint
06-16-2015, 11:32 AM
It's been time for months and months now.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-16-2015, 11:40 AM
It's been time for months and months now.

Agree - but like I mentioned earlier, with the Brewers and Padres (more so the Padres who are 2 games ahead of the Sox and 2 games closer to 1st than the Sox) have already pulled the trigger paving the way for the Sox to do it with very little (if any) backlash.

My order of preference to make this a more successful/enjoyable franchise:
1) Fire Robin.
2) Fire Kenny.
3) Cut Hawk's mic.

kittle42
06-16-2015, 12:14 PM
Not that anyone in the organization cares, but I have gone to two games this season and that is my fill. I'd rather take a free ticket from a STH friend to walk down the street to watch a game if I really need a baseball fix. I am the leader of a Sox STH group and am going to seriously talk with my two partners about not renewing. I already haven't taken any tickets the past four years, and just kept my name on the account. They're losing money on it, I'm sure.

Screw this organization. Until there is a change in management (since ownership is an even more pie in the sky wish), I'll keep my entertainment dollar.

russ99
06-16-2015, 12:24 PM
IMO, the front office and the coaching staff are two separate issues.

The first won't be fixed until Jerry sells, but as long as Kenny doesn't interfere too much, I think Hahn is doing an OK job, and he'll continue to prove his worth during our post-break sell off.

The second is fixable, but IMO it's more fixable this offseason when the entire staff is dumped and an experienced manager and his handpicked coaches are brought in.

Firing Robin may light a bit of a fire under the players, but if Parent is his replacement, we're just as bad, if not worse off. Plus there's inherent problems with our coaching staff that firing Robin won't fix, especially Coop having too much power in day-to-day managerial decisions.

The only thing we realistically could do this year to fix it is fire Robin and Coop and promote Joel Skinner and Richard Dotson - our AAA manager and pitching coach, which other teams have done before.

slavko
06-16-2015, 12:51 PM
IMO, the front office and the coaching staff are two separate issues.

The first won't be fixed until Jerry sells, but as long as Kenny doesn't interfere too much, I think Hahn is doing an OK job, and he'll continue to prove his worth during our post-break sell off.

The second is fixable, but IMO it's more fixable this offseason when the entire staff is dumped and an experienced manager and his handpicked coaches are brought in.

Firing Robin may light a bit of a fire under the players, but if Parent is his replacement, we're just as bad, if not worse off. Plus there's inherent problems with our coaching staff that firing Robin won't fix, especially Coop having too much power in day-to-day managerial decisions.

The only thing we realistically could do this year to fix it is fire Robin and Coop and promote Joel Skinner and Richard Dotson - our AAA manager and pitching coach, which other teams have done before.

Lotta good thoughts in there, Russ. Except Hahn's still getting by on "new car smell." Most likely he's just another guy.

Reinsy's getting to the age where he might just surprise us all any day now and massive changes will follow.

rdivaldi
06-16-2015, 12:56 PM
I'm not usually for firing a guy in the middle of the season, but yeah, it's time for Robin to go. Prop up a temporary fix for the rest of the year and focus on finding the right guy in 2016.

rdivaldi
06-16-2015, 01:00 PM
Except Hahn's still getting by on "new car smell." Most likely he's just another guy.

Not sure how you can't be at least somewhat impressed with what Hahn has done. He inherited an awful team with an over-matched manager and a depleted minor league system. I'd say he has us on the right track, I'm curious to see who his choice for manager is once he gets rid of Robin.

JB98
06-16-2015, 01:00 PM
IMO, the front office and the coaching staff are two separate issues.

The first won't be fixed until Jerry sells, but as long as Kenny doesn't interfere too much, I think Hahn is doing an OK job, and he'll continue to prove his worth during our post-break sell off.

The second is fixable, but IMO it's more fixable this offseason when the entire staff is dumped and an experienced manager and his handpicked coaches are brought in.

Firing Robin may light a bit of a fire under the players, but if Parent is his replacement, we're just as bad, if not worse off. Plus there's inherent problems with our coaching staff that firing Robin won't fix, especially Coop having too much power in day-to-day managerial decisions.

The only thing we realistically could do this year to fix it is fire Robin and Coop and promote Joel Skinner and Richard Dotson - our AAA manager and pitching coach, which other teams have done before.

I agree with this. I know this isn't exactly a compelling argument for keeping Robin, but I could see either Parent or Cooper being a complete embarrassment to the organization as an interim manager.

Honestly, I don't think there is anything they can do to salvage this year. They looked like a bad team in spring training. They started the season looking like a bad team, and they still look like a bad team 62 games later. It's hard to pinpoint why. They should be better than this, but there is no turnaround coming. Management needs to accept that and act accordingly.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2015, 01:00 PM
Not that anyone in the organization cares, but I have gone to two games this season and that is my fill. I'd rather take a free ticket from a STH friend to walk down the street to watch a game if I really need a baseball fix. I am the leader of a Sox STH group and am going to seriously talk with my two partners about not renewing. I already haven't taken any tickets the past four years, and just kept my name on the account. They're losing money on it, I'm sure.

Screw this organization. Until there is a change in management (since ownership is an even more pie in the sky wish), I'll keep my entertainment dollar.

Kittle:

May I suggest you let your rep know your comments.

Lip

Irishsox1
06-16-2015, 01:55 PM
As a White Sox fan for 40 years I've seen bad teams, bad management and bad managers. The problem with this Sox team is the manager. There is a lot of talent on this current Sox team under performing and that's the managers fault.

Who has more talent, the Sox or the Twins?...easy, the Sox. The problem is the Twins are 5 games over .500 and the Sox have not been 5 games over .500 since late 2012. Why?...Ventura.

The pro game is very simple, winning is good, losing is bad and Ventura is losing too many games. He's 249-299 .45% Terry Bevington who was a horrible manager went 222-214 .51% and he was fired after year 3.

getonbckthr
06-16-2015, 02:50 PM
Maybe i'm reaching and there's no connection but is it possible Reinsdorf doesn't want to fire and pay 2 Head Coaches/managers so he chose Thibadeu because of all the conflict?

WhiteSoxFan84
06-16-2015, 02:52 PM
I agree with this. I know this isn't exactly a compelling argument for keeping Robin, but I could see either Parent or Cooper being a complete embarrassment to the organization as an interim manager.

Honestly, I don't think there is anything they can do to salvage this year. They looked like a bad team in spring training. They started the season looking like a bad team, and they still look like a bad team 62 games later. It's hard to pinpoint why. They should be better than this, but there is no turnaround coming. Management needs to accept that and act accordingly.

The argument here is, "Don't let the potential of worse get in the way of bad."

Things are bad already - why worry about them getting worse? And what if a guy like Parent (not exactly the guy I had in mind even as an interim) revives the team because he busts his butt trying to make a name for himself during his interim phase?

Maybe I'm simple-minded, but to me the equation is this: Ventura as manager = not good. It ends there for me. Remove him and let's see where we go from there. If we go from being a .450 team to being a .400 team, does it really matter?

What I would be asking is this:
Are you willing to risk going from .450 down to .400 with the reward being the potential of being a .555 (90 wins) or better under a new manager? Scary thought here: we'd need to play .620 baseball the rest of the way to finish with 90 wins - clock has been ticking and it's time to decide.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-16-2015, 02:54 PM
Maybe i'm reaching and there's no connection but is it possible Reinsdorf doesn't want to fire and pay 2 Head Coaches/managers so he chose Thibadeu because of all the conflict?

It's funny you mention this as someone already said Jerry getting older is making him do things he wouldn't have done in the past (i.e. pay someone now to coach/play). I have a feeling this is a sign of things to come from him rather than an anomaly. He wants winners and he might fear he doesn't have much more time to win more.

amsteel
06-16-2015, 03:04 PM
Maybe i'm reaching and there's no connection but is it possible Reinsdorf doesn't want to fire and pay 2 Head Coaches/managers so he chose Thibadeu because of all the conflict?

I certainly hope that whatever the Bulls have going on has no bearing on White Sox decision making

jdm2662
06-16-2015, 04:07 PM
I certainly hope that whatever the Bulls have going on has no bearing on White Sox decision making

It doesn't.

They are two different organizations.

Tragg
06-16-2015, 04:23 PM
I can't imagine Ventura taking a 4 day weekend was motivational to the players (a day or 2 is reasonable).

But the problems go a lot deeper than Ventura, including the person who hired him and not giving him top flight experienced assistants.

The Immigrant
06-16-2015, 04:30 PM
I can't imagine Ventura taking a 4 day weekend was motivational to the players (a day or 2 is reasonable).



I'm kind of surprised he came back from the long weekend, to tell you the truth. I thought (hoped?) he would use the opportunity to ride off into the sunset.

SaltyPretzel
06-16-2015, 04:33 PM
I appreciate the sentiments but I don't expect anything to change unless this team completely goes in the tank the next few weeks (say they lose 10 of the next 12 games... something like that)

The White Sox front office and ownership dislike change and are loyal to a fault. That's a historical fact.

Robin still has two years (I think) on his deal. JR does not like to pay people to not work.

I think at the very least a complete overhaul is needed at the top of the food chain, but that's not going to happen. I'd settle for Kenny being let go or leaving on his own and there is a chance that might happen but again I don't think the odds are very good for that to take place given the closeness of him and JR over at least 20 years.

Loyalty matters more than winning / accountability to the franchise unfortunately.

And even if some changes are made, based on the track record why should anyone think the Sox will get it right in the future? Replacing Robin with say Jim Thome or another former player doesn't change the dynamic does it?

The Sox keep things "in the family" they generally promote from within or give positions to those who played for them instead of going to the top winning organizations like the Angels, Giants, Rays, Tigers, Cardinals and get their best front office folks or scouts. Those people would have new ideas and look at the problems with a different take but again the Sox simply don't do that.

I just don't see the situation changing dramatically (which is what is badly needed) even if somehow Robin is fired. Remember the Sox haven't hired a manager who managed before in the big leagues since Jeff Torborg in 1989.

Lip

That's pretty much what he's doing now.

BainesHOF
06-16-2015, 04:55 PM
This is about the time Hahn will give Ventura another contract extension.

LoveYourSuit
06-16-2015, 05:28 PM
I actually want Ventura to finish the season and bury this team with as bad a record as possible for the draft pick.

If a change to save this season was going to be made it should have been 6-8 weeks ago. Too late now.

The last I want is a new boss on the bench where these bums decide to want to impress just to barely play hard enough to get near .500.

A. Cavatica
06-16-2015, 09:29 PM
I actually want Ventura to finish the season and bury this team with as bad a record as possible for the draft pick.

If a change to save this season was going to be made it should have been 6-8 weeks ago. Too late now.

The last I want is a new boss on the bench where these bums decide to want to impress just to barely play hard enough to get near .500.

+1

If Hahn's choice is out there for the hiring, fire Robin. Otherwise it's too late, and they may as well tank another season.

XplodingScorbord
06-16-2015, 09:45 PM
I'm reluctantly on board with this, as I was after the Twins debacle in May. So I put it to you, wizened veterans of White Sox fandom: who should be the next (non-interim) manager of your Chicago White Sox? I'm legitimately curious in hearing ideas. I suspect we'll get a fair bit of Ozzie and Gardenhire responses. I'd love other names and arguments for them.

RadioheadRocks
06-16-2015, 09:50 PM
Robin still has two years (I think) on his deal. JR does not like to pay people to not work.



"Work"... is THAT what we're calling what Robin is doing in the dugout these days???

Paulwny
06-16-2015, 09:55 PM
I'm reluctantly on board with this, as I was after the Twins debacle in May. So I put it to you, wizened veterans of White Sox fandom: who should be the next (non-interim) manager of your Chicago White Sox? I'm legitimately curious in hearing ideas. I suspect we'll get a fair bit of Ozzie and Gardenhire responses. I'd love other names and arguments for them.


Dave Martinez

WhiteSox5187
06-16-2015, 10:02 PM
I think it's getting to the point where the White Sox almost have to do something just to keep up appearances. It might be something like DFA'ing someone, but SOMETHING has to change.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2015, 10:11 PM
I'm reluctantly on board with this, as I was after the Twins debacle in May. So I put it to you, wizened veterans of White Sox fandom: who should be the next (non-interim) manager of your Chicago White Sox? I'm legitimately curious in hearing ideas. I suspect we'll get a fair bit of Ozzie and Gardenhire responses. I'd love other names and arguments for them.

I don't care who it is as long as they have previous major league managerial experience and have ZERO connection to the White Sox. Enough with giving people a chance, hoping someone can learn on the job.

Enough, period.

Lip

The Immigrant
06-16-2015, 10:35 PM
I don't care who it is as long as they have previous major league managerial experience and have ZERO connection to the White Sox.

Lip

I don't know, I wouldn't mind if Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar got the job.

whitesoxfan1986
06-16-2015, 10:42 PM
I want to give Hahn a chance, but this organization needs a house cleaning from the top down. They need to take whoever Mozeliak's right hand man is with the Cards. The Cardinals,(minus the hacking bit) are everything I wish the Sox would be. They make smart decisions in free agency and have good scouting and player development. IMO when it comes to on the field personnel decisions, they are the model franchise in MLB.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2015, 10:58 PM
I don't know, I wouldn't mind if Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar got the job.

Under different circumstances I'd agree with you but the time for "experimenting" with another inexperienced candidate has long passed in my opinion.

The Sox need someone at the helm who isn't grateful just to have a job and who frankly won't take interference from higher-up's.

I guess in a way I want someone like Chuck Tanner from a "guts" / "fundamentals" standpoint. This is probably the best example I can give you of what I want from my interview with him:

Chuck Tanner: “The first thing I did was to work hard in spring training. We went through seven infield stations for twenty minutes each time with five minutes break between them. We worked on fundamentals then, things like the run down, the pick off move, things like that. Then we’d take batting practice. Batting practice was always the last thing that we did during the day.”

“The other thing and this was part of my ‘philosophy’ was that I told the guys that we’d take the best 25 players north every year, the guys who gave us the best chance to win. You look at the number of kids that came up when I was managing...’Bucky’ Dent, George Orta, Brian Downing, Terry Forster, ‘Goose’ Gossage. People were always telling me, ‘you’ll ruin those kids, they aren’t ready.’ I’d say ‘I want the best 25 guys, I’ll manage them, I’ll get them ready.’

“The other thing that turned it around took place pretty early in the 1971 season. We weren’t doing well, we were having a hard time catching the ball in the outfield. Mike Hershberger was back in Triple A because he pulled a hamstring and I said I wanted him called back up to the Sox. I got a call from Roland Hemond the next day saying that there was a meeting going on at Comiskey Park and that a number of Sox people didn’t want him to return. I said ‘I’ll be right over.’ So I got to the park and went to the meeting. A number of Sox people were there, the farm director, the assistant farm director, scouts. Basically they said Hershberger had a bad attitude, he didn’t want to play, a lot of stuff.”

“So I said, and this was the greatest thing I ever did with the Sox, that ‘you know there’s a reason Don Gutteridge isn’t here as manager anymore. It’s because he listened to all of you!’ I said ‘if Hershberger isn’t brought back up, you’ll be looking for a new manager tonight.’ I threatened to resign. Mike helped turn it around. He hit a home run to win a game, he threw out a guy at the plate to win a game. He settled down the outfield and we started to win. The point was I was going to win or lose they way I wanted to, not the way someone else wanted me to.”

Lip

Brian26
06-16-2015, 11:32 PM
They need a Jeff Torborg type.

soxfanreggie
06-16-2015, 11:54 PM
I don't care who it is as long as they have previous major league managerial experience and have ZERO connection to the White Sox. Enough with giving people a chance, hoping someone can learn on the job.

Enough, period.

Lip

I wonder who hires Bud Black as a coach. He didn't make the playoffs with the Pads, but most of his tenure he had a cheap roster. They finally open their wallets, but they find themselves behind LA and SF in that division.

captain54
06-17-2015, 12:29 AM
I don't care who it is as long as they have previous major league managerial experience and have ZERO connection to the White Sox. Enough with giving people a chance, hoping someone can learn on the job.

Enough, period.

Lip

Reinsdorf looks like the King of the Dysfunctional Franchises right now, so I would suspect anyone with zero connection to the Sox organization would think long and hard about stepping into this quagmire on the south side..

WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2015, 01:11 AM
My nominees (in no particular order):
Mike Maddux
Manny Acta
Ivan Rodriguez (I know I said I want someone with experience but catchers tend to make great managers and I-Rod was one of the best ever)
Ron Gardenhire

JB98
06-17-2015, 01:36 AM
The argument here is, "Don't let the potential of worse get in the way of bad."

Things are bad already - why worry about them getting worse? And what if a guy like Parent (not exactly the guy I had in mind even as an interim) revives the team because he busts his butt trying to make a name for himself during his interim phase?

Maybe I'm simple-minded, but to me the equation is this: Ventura as manager = not good. It ends there for me. Remove him and let's see where we go from there. If we go from being a .450 team to being a .400 team, does it really matter?

What I would be asking is this:
Are you willing to risk going from .450 down to .400 with the reward being the potential of being a .555 (90 wins) or better under a new manager? Scary thought here: we'd need to play .620 baseball the rest of the way to finish with 90 wins - clock has been ticking and it's time to decide.

That's not my concern. Parent and Cooper are not the kind of people I want speaking with the media every day, and yes, that does matter in the perception of the team.

WisSoxFan
06-17-2015, 07:17 AM
Under different circumstances I'd agree with you but the time for "experimenting" with another inexperienced candidate has long passed in my opinion.

The Sox need someone at the helm who isn't grateful just to have a job and who frankly won't take interference from higher-up's.

I guess in a way I want someone like Chuck Tanner from a "guts" / "fundamentals" standpoint. This is probably the best example I can give you of what I want from my interview with him:

Chuck Tanner: “The first thing I did was to work hard in spring training. We went through seven infield stations for twenty minutes each time with five minutes break between them. We worked on fundamentals then, things like the run down, the pick off move, things like that. Then we’d take batting practice. Batting practice was always the last thing that we did during the day.”

“The other thing and this was part of my ‘philosophy’ was that I told the guys that we’d take the best 25 players north every year, the guys who gave us the best chance to win. You look at the number of kids that came up when I was managing...’Bucky’ Dent, George Orta, Brian Downing, Terry Forster, ‘Goose’ Gossage. People were always telling me, ‘you’ll ruin those kids, they aren’t ready.’ I’d say ‘I want the best 25 guys, I’ll manage them, I’ll get them ready.’

“The other thing that turned it around took place pretty early in the 1971 season. We weren’t doing well, we were having a hard time catching the ball in the outfield. Mike Hershberger was back in Triple A because he pulled a hamstring and I said I wanted him called back up to the Sox. I got a call from Roland Hemond the next day saying that there was a meeting going on at Comiskey Park and that a number of Sox people didn’t want him to return. I said ‘I’ll be right over.’ So I got to the park and went to the meeting. A number of Sox people were there, the farm director, the assistant farm director, scouts. Basically they said Hershberger had a bad attitude, he didn’t want to play, a lot of stuff.”

“So I said, and this was the greatest thing I ever did with the Sox, that ‘you know there’s a reason Don Gutteridge isn’t here as manager anymore. It’s because he listened to all of you!’ I said ‘if Hershberger isn’t brought back up, you’ll be looking for a new manager tonight.’ I threatened to resign. Mike helped turn it around. He hit a home run to win a game, he threw out a guy at the plate to win a game. He settled down the outfield and we started to win. The point was I was going to win or lose they way I wanted to, not the way someone else wanted me to.”

Lip

The Sox were Tanner's first MLB managerial job. I take it your point really isn't with experience or lack of it.

Vernam
06-17-2015, 07:29 AM
Reinsdorf looks like the King of the Dysfunctional Franchises right now, so I would suspect anyone with zero connection to the Sox organization would think long and hard about stepping into this quagmire on the south side..

As one of the people who think Reinsdorf's legacy could have been a positive one with WS05 and six Bulls titles balancing out years of mediocrity and worse, I think he needs to think seriously about how the two teams are now seriously tarnishing that reputation.

The Sox were basically a non-factor before May ended. And if the reports are true about Jimmy Butler turning down their max contract, it's going to be open season on that franchise -- in fact, it may be already.

Kilroy
06-17-2015, 07:41 AM
Is Robin fired yet?

Fortunately for me, the last two days have been spent enjoying the Hawks and Warriors instead of watching the Pirates kick the Sox in their hairy bean bags. But now its time to get back to the Sox full time. It would be nice to have someone come in and de-fib this team back to life.

I said that we should wait until the end of May to see what happens before making a change. NOTHING has happened to make me think that Robin can get things moving in the right direction, this year, or in any subsequent year.

I know we as fans aren't witness to what happens in the clubhouse, what efforts are made, etc, but the bottom line is the results, and they just aren't there.

It's time.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2015, 08:06 AM
That's not my concern. Parent and Cooper are not the kind of people I want speaking with the media every day, and yes, that does matter in the perception of the team.

I'll ask that you explain further but "how they handle the media" and "perception of the team" would rank 9th and 10th in my Top 10 most important things about the team.

doublem23
06-17-2015, 08:30 AM
The Sox were basically a non-factor before May ended. And if the reports are true about Jimmy Butler turning down their max contract, it's going to be open season on that franchise -- in fact, it may be already.

Eh, FWIW, if Jimmy turns down the max deal right now, I think that is less a reflection on the Bulls and more a reflection of the economics of basketball. Everyone is trying to align themselves to be free agents in the summer of 2017. The salary cap is going to explode. Barring any changes to the CBA, the Bulls will still be able to give Jimmy more money than anyone else, it just might be literally tens of millions of more dollars than what they can offer him today. Jimmy turned down what was considered a pretty reasonable extension offer last summer and bet that he could earn himself a bigger payday. I think he's just doing it again.

ohiosoxfan
06-17-2015, 08:31 AM
my nominees (in no particular order):
Mike maddux
manny acta
ivan rodriguez (i know i said i want someone with experience but catchers tend to make great managers and i-rod was one of the best ever)
ron gardenhire

no, no, a thousand times no on acta!!!!!

PatK
06-17-2015, 08:50 AM
All I know is I'm glad I didn't get a bigger ticket plan because I can't give tickets away, even if I offer to pay for the parking. And that's when I'm offering them to people that like the Sox.

I personally don't know any Sox fans that want Robin to stay.

They needed to get rid of Robin a long time ago.

Paulwny
06-17-2015, 09:31 AM
I don't care who it is as long as they have previous major league managerial experience and have ZERO connection to the White Sox. Enough with giving people a chance, hoping someone can learn on the job.

Enough, period.

Lip

I wonder how many experienced ex-managers would accept a managerial position with the sox unless they had full control to choose their coaching staff.

kobo
06-17-2015, 09:55 AM
That's not my concern. Parent and Cooper are not the kind of people I want speaking with the media every day, and yes, that does matter in the perception of the team.
Cooper's mouth and attitude towards the fans are part of the reason I haven't gone to a game since OD. Yes, the Sox suck right now, it's hard to support the team and will be for the rest of the summer. Cooper doesn't need to go on the radio and start blasting the fans (again) for not coming out to watch this mess.

Another thing, the 'Coop will fix em' mystique needs to end. Coop hasn't fixed anyone lately, and his staff over the last several years has been in the bottom half/bottom third of pitching statistics. He seems to have a lot of influence in the organization and I don't understand why.

Noneck
06-17-2015, 10:03 AM
I don't know, I wouldn't mind if Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar got the job.

These guys have been passed over so many times by other teams, Ill pass.

amsteel
06-17-2015, 10:11 AM
I wonder how many experienced ex-managers would accept a managerial position with the sox unless they had full control to choose their coaching staff.

CONSPIRACY THEORY: The Sox haven't fired Ventura because they know no one of any esteem will take the job so why fire a bad inexperienced manager only to replace him with a worse less experienced one?

DeadMoney
06-17-2015, 10:30 AM
At least with Robin at the helm the team can continue to perfectly execute the tanking for picks/prospects plan!

Other random thoughts I've had today that I'm just going to put in this thread:
- The White Sox are still playing!? Is Hawk back yet? Can he leave when Robin leaves?
- Someone should start a website or a Twitter account "Did the White Sox score a run today?"
- Does anyone seriously want to even go to games any more? I know I don't. I'm pretty sure they actually couldn't even pay me to go right now (unless Sale is pitching).
- With hockey and basketball over I'm looking for suggestions of what to watch now that my summer nights are open from 7-10 (or so). Is it wrong to actually want to watch the Cubs over the Sox?

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 10:32 AM
The Sox were Tanner's first MLB managerial job. I take it your point really isn't with experience or lack of it.

Yes and no, I mention guts and fundamentals as main points but also remember Tanner at least managed for years in the minor leagues.

I'd prefer major league experience but at this point if the individual has the other two points and has minor league experience that would be a major step-up in my opinion from what the franchise has now.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 10:34 AM
I wonder how many experienced ex-managers would accept a managerial position with the sox unless they had full control to choose their coaching staff.

That's a great point.

Lip

Dan H
06-17-2015, 11:12 AM
What happened to the thread about the fan being wrong about Robin Ventura?

Irishsox1
06-17-2015, 11:26 AM
What happened to the thread about the fan being wrong about Robin Ventura?


His basement got flooded out because of all the rain so he's off the grid and hasn't seen the Sox score 1 run in the last 3 games.

He's still bullish on Ventura.

Foulke You
06-17-2015, 11:39 AM
These guys have been passed over so many times by other teams, Ill pass.
This is hardly a smoking gun that Alomar and Martinez wouldn't be good candidates. They simply haven't gotten their opportunity to manage yet and many teams look for experienced managers first before taking a chance on an unproven bench coach.

Foulke You
06-17-2015, 11:44 AM
I want to give Hahn a chance, but this organization needs a house cleaning from the top down. They need to take whoever Mozeliak's right hand man is with the Cards. The Cardinals,(minus the hacking bit) are everything I wish the Sox would be. They make smart decisions in free agency and have good scouting and player development. IMO when it comes to on the field personnel decisions, they are the model franchise in MLB.
The Giants would be a good organization to plunder from as well. 3 championships in the last 5 years makes them the Blackhawks of MLB.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 11:54 AM
The Giants would be a good organization to plunder from as well. 3 championships in the last 5 years makes them the Blackhawks of MLB.

As would the Tigers, Rays and Angels in my opinion. All those franchises including the Giants and Cardinals have had sustained success over the past decade. They must be doing something right.

Lip

Dan H
06-17-2015, 12:04 PM
This goes deeper than Ventura and I think most fans are more than aware of that. After 2011 when the team disappointed, and Ozzie ran off at the mouth, something dramatic should have been done to shake things up. What did the Sox do? With almost no consideration of other managerial candidates, they hired Robin Ventura.

I realize that Hahn and the upper management had to give the team a chance to pull out of its losing ways. Now there is no excuse for any further waiting, something decisive has to be done. Since the team can't be fixed quickly, management must demonstrate they are no longer in denial. The first way to do that is fire Robin Ventura.

JB98
06-17-2015, 12:29 PM
I'll ask that you explain further but "how they handle the media" and "perception of the team" would rank 9th and 10th in my Top 10 most important things about the team.

Look, I don't care whether they fire Ventura today or let him manage the rest of the year. The season is over. Firing Robin and promoting one of the goofs on his coaching staff to interim status is not going to make this team play .550 or .600 ball the rest of the year. It's just not.

JB98
06-17-2015, 12:31 PM
Cooper's mouth and attitude towards the fans are part of the reason I haven't gone to a game since OD. Yes, the Sox suck right now, it's hard to support the team and will be for the rest of the summer. Cooper doesn't need to go on the radio and start blasting the fans (again) for not coming out to watch this mess.

Another thing, the 'Coop will fix em' mystique needs to end. Coop hasn't fixed anyone lately, and his staff over the last several years has been in the bottom half/bottom third of pitching statistics. He seems to have a lot of influence in the organization and I don't understand why.

Agreed. It's ridiculous that he's attendance shaming the fans. He needs to shut the **** up and figure out why Jeff Samardzija can't make it through the first inning without giving up runs, among other problems.

Vernam
06-17-2015, 12:34 PM
Eh, FWIW, if Jimmy turns down the max deal right now, I think that is less a reflection on the Bulls and more a reflection of the economics of basketball. Everyone is trying to align themselves to be free agents in the summer of 2017. The salary cap is going to explode. Barring any changes to the CBA, the Bulls will still be able to give Jimmy more money than anyone else, it just might be literally tens of millions of more dollars than what they can offer him today. Jimmy turned down what was considered a pretty reasonable extension offer last summer and bet that he could earn himself a bigger payday. I think he's just doing it again.

Excellent points, but I doubt the media would hold back on theorizing that Butler hates Forman, Pax, Reinsdorf, the parking attendants, etc.

doublem23
06-17-2015, 12:42 PM
Excellent points, but I doubt the media would hold back on theorizing that Butler hates Forman, Pax, Reinsdorf, the parking attendants, etc.

I'm sure they would, that sounds like a great overblown story to sell papers and get web clicks, but who cares what the media, especially the sports media, thinks? I can't remember the last time I read something on traditional sports media that made me think, "oh, very insightful." Especially not at the local level.

Noneck
06-17-2015, 12:46 PM
Cooper doesn't need to go on the radio and start blasting the fans (again) for not coming out to watch this mess.



Has he done this again recently?

JB98
06-17-2015, 12:50 PM
Has he done this again recently?

Yeah, he popped off about the fans on The Score last week during the Houston series. Basically said the crowds should be bigger on the day Sale pitches, and that fans don't appreciate Sale.

Noneck
06-17-2015, 12:58 PM
Yeah, he popped off about the fans on The Score last week during the Houston series. Basically said the crowds should be bigger on the day Sale pitches, and that fans don't appreciate Sale.


Yea its real fun to see a guy give it his all and watch his team mates let it go to waste. Thats a fun evening at the ball park.

I still think cooper is the new mouthpiece for the chairman.

captain54
06-17-2015, 02:44 PM
What happened to the thread about the fan being wrong about Robin Ventura?

From years of following Sox fan forums, it's pretty common to witness the onslaught of "Fire Ozzie, Fire Manuel, Fire Robin" threads when the success of the team goes south..

As as indication of how far of a dark hole this franchise has fallen into, I really get the vibe that most fans could care less whether the manager is fired, since the problems and issues run far deeper..

Vernam
06-17-2015, 03:07 PM
I'm sure they would, that sounds like a great overblown story to sell papers and get web clicks, but who cares what the media, especially the sports media, thinks? I can't remember the last time I read something on traditional sports media that made me think, "oh, very insightful." Especially not at the local level.

Have to admit that Barry Rozner is lately striking me as a talented writer who is thought-provoking without being a dick for dick's sake. I'll probably get reamed for this, but Rosenbloom wrote some of the best Hawk playoff analysis, you just have to dig for it because his main Trib gig is to write inane squibs for page 2 of the Trib sports page.

joegraz
06-17-2015, 03:14 PM
Reinsdorf looks like the King of the Dysfunctional Franchises right now, so I would suspect anyone with zero connection to the Sox organization would think long and hard about stepping into this quagmire on the south side..

Maybe that's why he can only hire friends. People on the outside take one look and say no thanks.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-17-2015, 03:27 PM
Wow. I came in looking for a new manager but now (after reading all your comments) I am now thinking I need a whole new team to cheer for!

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 04:35 PM
I still think cooper is the new mouthpiece for the chairman.

Still think it's Hawk.

Lip

Mohoney
06-17-2015, 04:44 PM
Another thing, the 'Coop will fix em' mystique needs to end. Coop hasn't fixed anyone lately, and his staff over the last several years has been in the bottom half/bottom third of pitching statistics. He seems to have a lot of influence in the organization and I don't understand why.

Spot on. Don Cooper is living off reputation from 2005 more than anyone else in this organization. Most pitching coaches would have been fired by now with the results he's had since then.

PaleHoser
06-17-2015, 05:39 PM
Robin needs to go, but the Sox won't fire him. Maybe he'll resign after the season. One can hope.

I'd also like to point out that much of this misery was triggered by replacing the diamond sock patch with the Sox logo on the sleeve on the road uniforms in 2011. Bring back the diamond sock patch on the road jersey and the tuxedo stripes on the road pants and we might remember how to score and win on the road again.

No teal implied here...don't mess with the mojo.

Noneck
06-17-2015, 06:28 PM
Still think it's Hawk.

Lip


Yes, I should have said another new mouthpiece.

MISoxfan
06-17-2015, 07:04 PM
Spot on. Don Cooper is living off reputation from 2005 more than anyone else in this organization. Most pitching coaches would have been fired by now with the results he's had since then.

I've been thinking about this lately, too. My only hesitation is that the Sox pitchers have been remarkably healthy over his tenure. Whether that is due to him or Herm, I don't know, but I would hate to see that end.

TheVulture
06-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Another thing, the 'Coop will fix em' mystique needs to end. Coop hasn't fixed anyone lately, and his staff over the last several years has been in the bottom half/bottom third of pitching statistics.

I don't know about anyone else, but every time I've seen that comment the last couple years, at least, I've taken that as a blatant display of tongue in cheek irony.

Mohoney
06-17-2015, 09:10 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but every time I've seen that comment the last couple years, at least, I've taken that as a blatant display of tongue in cheek irony.

It's tongue-in-cheek around here, but it's definitely a part of organizational philosophy. Look at all the pet projects like Maikel Cleto, Hector Noesi, and Javy Guerra. Even after proving that they can't hack it, guys like that get a lot more innings in this organization than they would get in other organizations.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2015, 09:11 PM
I'm reluctantly on board with this, as I was after the Twins debacle in May. So I put it to you, wizened veterans of White Sox fandom: who should be the next (non-interim) manager of your Chicago White Sox? I'm legitimately curious in hearing ideas. I suspect we'll get a fair bit of Ozzie and Gardenhire responses. I'd love other names and arguments for them.

If the replacement is Ozzie, I'd rather keep Ventura.

soxfanreggie
06-17-2015, 09:41 PM
And this team continues to embarrass the organization. They better be ready for an awful July-September attendance figure with this crapfest on the field.

Tragg
06-17-2015, 10:45 PM
If the replacement is Ozzie, I'd rather keep Ventura.
Amen to that.

Brian26
06-17-2015, 10:51 PM
It's tongue-in-cheek around here, but it's definitely a part of organizational philosophy. Look at all the pet projects like Maikel Cleto, Hector Noesi, and Javy Guerra. Even after proving that they can't hack it, guys like that get a lot more innings in this organization than they would get in other organizations.

One needs to look no further than Francisco Liriano, who has had an ERA in the 3.xx range for the Pirates over the past three years and has reinvented himself. Liriano was a great pickup by the Sox in 2012, a guy who should have put the Sox over the top. He stunk. Cooper couldn't work any magic with him with the pennant on the line, yet this guy goes to Pittsburgh and puts together three outstanding seasons in a row.

ChicagoG19
06-18-2015, 01:51 AM
One needs to look no further than Francisco Liriano, who has had an ERA in the 3.xx range for the Pirates over the past three years and has reinvented himself. Liriano was a great pickup by the Sox in 2012, a guy who should have put the Sox over the top. He stunk. Cooper couldn't work any magic with him with the pennant on the line, yet this guy goes to Pittsburgh and puts together three outstanding seasons in a row.

That ERA would be in the 4+ range in the AL and then it doesn't sound so great.

soxfanreggie
06-18-2015, 03:55 AM
That ERA would be in the 4+ range in the AL and then it doesn't sound so great.

Huh? Liriano'e ERAs with the Pirates:

2013: 3.02
2014: 3.38
2015: 2.94

So you're saying his ERA would jump 1+ runs per game switching leagues? Even if his ERA was 4.00 or 4.20, it's still a lot better than what we would get out of Danks/Noesi the last few years.