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voodoochile
06-09-2015, 10:31 PM
Not saying they are a good team but not a lot of quit in them either. Too bad they can't play the best team in baseball every night...

:soxwin:

tstrike2000
06-09-2015, 10:34 PM
We just need to play the Astros all the time. Simple solution.

Lip Man 1
06-09-2015, 10:38 PM
I am pleasantly shocked this team could get two runs off a stud pitcher.

Many folks say Hawk is JR's 'mouthpiece'; if that's the case some players need to start stepping lightly. When Hawk starts talking about how bad the team is with the bases loaded you know the man at the top is getting pissed.

And is it just me or does Zach Duke now give up a home run every time he comes into a game. He started the year off so well now his ERA is ballooning. He's turning into another Jennings.

Still lots of work to do, but thankful they somehow won the game.

Lip

shes
06-09-2015, 10:38 PM
Rodon as he is now is a legit #3.

If he ever develops a third pitch/fixes his control issues he's going to be one of the best pitchers in baseball.

Zakath
06-09-2015, 10:39 PM
Rodon with his fourth straight outing of 1 earned run or less. Still throwing a lot of pitches though (116 through 6).

Duke made it interesting in the ninth, giving up Correa's first career HR after Eaton, Garcia, and Bonifacio completed the Bermuda Triangle on a Carter pop-up.

Offense continues its mighty struggles, leaving bases loaded in the second and the eighth after loading them with no one out. Fortunately, Melky did plate a couple in that eighth before Flowers, Bonifacio, and Eaton all whiffed. Good thing Melky came through, as those proved to be the game-winning RBI's.

Abreu hits his 10th, but the Sox still sit in 28th in the majors with only 40 homers through the first 57.

MISoxfan
06-09-2015, 10:47 PM
Eh, it's not exactly like we scored no runs on bases loaded with no outs, we still scored 2 runs. It should have been more, but if we get bases loaded no outs and score two via sacrifice flies and a strike out nobody is complaining.

russ99
06-09-2015, 11:03 PM
We never get home team calls, so my complaints about Vanover's ginormous strike zone tonight will have to wait for the next time we get jobbed by that.

Good to see Rodon pitch well, the Sox win and Correa's first big league HR didn't hurt us.

Lip Man 1
06-09-2015, 11:04 PM
By the way Paul Sullivan has an interesting column tonight in the Tribune comparing the total rebuild of the Astros and Cubs to what the Sox did.

I shot him an e-mail with my thoughts on it, which are as follows:

"Great column today comparing the Astros / Cubs to the White Sox.


The problem is most think Hahn wasn't allowed to do a total rebuild.


Most of these off-season moves (while logical) have a "go for it" smell to them...meaning Kenny Williams is continuing to screw up this franchise yet again.


The real question is, what happens in a month when the Sox have a sell-off? How far back does that put Hahn's rebuild plan? Another two years? Three? And the minor league system, while better still can't produce everyday hitters and position players, only pitchers it seems.


I'm sure JR also had a hand in things trying to goose season ticket sales, but really what's the difference between the 20 thousand they are averaging now and the 15 thousand they'd average during a rebuild? It's not like the Sox are losing money either way.


In fairness to all concerned two points.


First you mention attendance but the weather has blown just about every time the Sox have been home. Given the last several years I can't blame the fans for not turning out in 53 degree weather in mid May or rainy nights like Monday.


Second, this organization, because of the interference from above, probably couldn't complete a successful rebuild even if they wanted to. Your partner Gonzo has told me numerous times how JR has stepped in to "recommend" who the Sox should be drafting. JR knows about as much of the drafting / development process as Anderson Cooper (LOL)


The bottom line Sully and you've watched this franchise for enough years, is that until new ownership comes in or the organization ends this keeping it "in the family" approach and starts hiring people from successful organizations to run things without interference things aren't going to change.

Lip

The Immigrant
06-09-2015, 11:10 PM
I am pleasantly shocked this team could get two runs off a stud pitcher.

Many folks say Hawk is JR's 'mouthpiece'; if that's the case some players need to start stepping lightly. When Hawk starts talking about how bad the team is with the bases loaded you know the man at the top is getting pissed.

And is it just me or does Zach Duke now give up a home run every time he comes into a game. He started the year off so well now his ERA is ballooning. He's turning into another Jennings.

Still lots of work to do, but thankful they somehow won the game.

Lip

Give it a ****ing rest for one night at least. They won the game.

BainesHOF
06-09-2015, 11:12 PM
Rodon is a bulldog.

The team has some great talent and tons of garbage. It's not going anywhere.

TDog
06-09-2015, 11:18 PM
Not saying they are a good team but not a lot of quit in them either. Too bad they can't play the best team in baseball every night...

:soxwin:

The White Sox are only as good as their pitching. Rodon actually pitched better tonight than he did the first time he faced the Astros, although only one of the three runs he gave up was unearned.

The Sox have looked a lot better than the Astros so far in their two series. Part of it may be the Astros aren't as good as their record indicates and the White Sox are probably better than theirs. The one game the Astros won in Houston was the shutout pitched by one of the league's top pitchers, their ace who Rodon was matching tonight before the Abreu home run. But the Astros haven't been winning a lot lately, and I don't think they could continue winning the way they were winning. The Sox are probably fortunate they didn't play the Astros earlier in the season.

If the Sox hadn't scored two in the bottom of the eighth tonight, the ending might have had less drama. Robertson would have come in for the save and probably ended the game without the Astros lineup turning over.

Of course, if the White Sox had scored maybe six in the eighth, Robertson wouldn't have been an issue. The Sox three times tonight had the bases loaded and none out. Only Cabrera's double got any runs out of it. The bottom third of the lineup could have put this game away. In the second, the bottom three White Sox hitters were facing Keuchel, who came into the game with an ERA under 2. In the eighth, especially after Cabrera's double, for the Sox it was more about sending up the hitters wanted for defense in the top of the ninth than hitting matchups.

Mohoney
06-09-2015, 11:22 PM
Even in this win, it is still evident that this team is going nowhere. A good team turns this into a laugher in the 8th inning, especially after failing twice already with the bases loaded and nobody out. This team runs Tyler Flowers and Emilio Bonifacio up there, who both promptly strike out. Sure enough, the Astros add two runs in the 9th, and we're forced to use Robertson.

ricker182
06-09-2015, 11:27 PM
Even in this win, it is still evident that this team is going nowhere. A good team turns this into a laugher in the 8th inning, especially after failing twice already with the bases loaded and nobody out. This team runs Tyler Flowers and Emilio Bonifacio up there, who both promptly strike out. Sure enough, the Astros add two runs in the 9th, and we're forced to use Robertson.

We're 3 games out of the wildcard. Lots of teams in front of us, but we're right in it.

voodoochile
06-09-2015, 11:32 PM
Give it a ****ing rest for one night at least. They won the game.

Lip is allowed to have his opinion. You are free to ignore him or put him on ignore if you choose. We wold prefer posters not swear directly at other posters.

Thanks.

MISoxfan
06-09-2015, 11:46 PM
It will be a sad day when we have six teams trying to win the world series and 24 teams trying to out-tank each other.

kittle42
06-09-2015, 11:55 PM
We're 3 games out of the wildcard. Lots of teams in front of us, but we're right in it.

Yes to the former. Not really to the latter.

Foulke You
06-09-2015, 11:57 PM
-Melky with a very nice game tonight. A right handed base hit, a 2 RBI double from the left side, took his first walk since May 15, and had a nice catch on a line drive. Hopefully, this is the start of a hot streak for him.

-Flowers with a poor game. Botched 2 foul pop ups, threw a ball into CF on a steal attempt, and struck out twice with the bases loaded. Flowers in bases loaded situations is now 3 for 29 with 18Ks in his career.

-This was a nice win to get against a nasty pitcher. Sox refuse to bury themselves this year even when it felt like an extended skid was on the horizon.

-I wonder if Chad Qualls has nightmares about the Sox. Seems like we always have his number.

-When Rodon finds that change up command, AL hitters are in big trouble.

slavko
06-10-2015, 12:13 AM
Lip
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the S. O. S. reload. It's organizational philosophy, IMO. (That means JR) As to whether you should do a 5 year plan with Sale and Abreu in place is another question. Would you? Would I?

Flowers is not a contact hitter, but Fields (once a Sox property?) was throwing BB's. And Sanchez takes charge of the play on that popup double. Where was he in the 9th? Robertson fooled exactly one of the four hitters he faced, the hopeless Colby Rasmus. I'm worried about him.

Andrew C White
06-10-2015, 12:24 AM
Rodon is getting better but he still needs better command. What I liked tonight is that I saw him throw some changeups. That's good. As someone else said, when that becomes a reliable third pitch he's going to be joining the elite. Well... when that becomes a reliable third pitch and he throws strikes consistently. But you can see it coming.

Montas threw a 7 inning no-hitter in Birmingham today. Be real nice if he turns into a major league starter too.

Missing that pop-up at the end was ugly (as was Tyler missing the foul pop-up eariler) but outfielders were wandering around after fly balls all night long. I don't recall Stone or Hawl saying anything about the wind but it was clearly messing with balls high in the air. Almost ever catch you saw the fielders wandering this way and that after the ball. I'll cut the guys some slack for the missed ones tonight.

voodoochile
06-10-2015, 12:28 AM
Lip
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the S. O. S. reload. It's organizational philosophy, IMO. (That means JR) As to whether you should do a 5 year plan with Sale and Abreu in place is another question. Would you? Would I?

Flowers is not a contact hitter, but Fields (once a Sox property?) was throwing BB's. And Sanchez takes charge of the play on that popup double. Where was he in the 9th? Robertson fooled exactly one of the four hitters he faced, the hopeless Colby Rasmus. I'm worried about him.

The Josh Fields who played for the Sox was a 3B.

Noneck
06-10-2015, 12:30 AM
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the S. O. S. reload. It's organizational philosophy, IMO. (That means JR) As to whether you should do a 5 year plan with Sale and Abreu in place is another question. Would you? Would I?



Then there is the relevancy factor, a rebuild would put the Sox in the same boat as the Chicago Fire. Also attendance would be between 1m -1.25m. Then there is the TV contract coming up, maybe soon after the rebuild or during it. I dont often agree with j.r. but this time I do.

slavko
06-10-2015, 12:33 AM
The Josh Fields who played for the Sox was a 3B.

Yeah, I know him. Showed power, flopped. But I'm thinking of the "second" Josh Fields. Off to Baseball Reference....

Edit: Nope, I thought this guy was in the minors when we had the flop 3B up here. He was, but not in our system.

Noneck
06-10-2015, 12:37 AM
Yeah, I know him. Showed power, flopped.


Yea he was the guy that that reminded the carnival barker of Harmon Killebrew.

thomas35forever
06-10-2015, 12:54 AM
Rodon pitches fine in the windup, but seems to have trouble finding the zone when he goes into the stretch. If he can correct that, the sky's the limit for him.

Great game to be at. The weather was nice and the offense, as frustrating as it was, came through at the right times. Would have preferred a better ninth inning, but as long as fireworks are exploding at the end of it, I'm happy.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 01:44 AM
Give it a ****ing rest for one night at least. They won the game.

Which is what I said they did, they won the game. But it's cool.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 01:49 AM
MOD EDIT - This post deleted

Noneck:

I wasn't sure that was allowed since it circumvents the Tribune's process so I thought the best thing to do was not do what you suggest. It's not quite kosher but if the mods allow it, I will in the future.

Lip

EDIT - Appreciate your thoughtfulness, Lip, this website does not condone sneaking around the Tribune's paywall. It is what it is.

TDog
06-10-2015, 01:54 AM
Rodon pitches fine in the windup, but seems to have trouble finding the zone when he goes into the stretch. If he can correct that, the sky's the limit for him. ...

You actually see that a lot in young pitchers, and it can get in the way of their development because they are successful enough before they don't get enough work out of the stretch and/or difficulties pitching out of the stretch doesn't show up in their numbers. Amateur coaches, and even Giants announcer former pitcher Mike Krukow, often focus on the importance of somehow getting opposing pitchers in the stretch when they seem unhittable. You simply see a lot of pitchers who are very successful before they get to the majors have trouble pitching in the majors with a motion that will keep baserunners honest.

That may be why the White Sox apparently decided to develop Rodon at the major league level, early on bringing him in relief with Noesi putting runners on base in the middle innings. There is some belief that David Price became the pitcher he is in part because he was used in relief in the 2008 postseason, never starting an inning until the loss of the World Series in desperation.

The fact that the White Sox plan to occasionally skip Rodon in the rotation in favor of Noesi further shows the organization is making Rodon's development at the major league level a priority for the major league season, which seems a thin line when fans see the priority as winning games. For example, Scott Carroll is better suited for long relief and could do a better job of keeping the Sox in some ballgames, but he isn't going to supplant Noesi in the occasional starting rotation.

TDog
06-10-2015, 02:11 AM
By the way Paul Sullivan has an interesting column tonight in the Tribune comparing the total rebuild of the Astros and Cubs to what the Sox did. ...

It's interesting if you it fits your agenda.

Jerome Holtzman wrote a column in 1971 stating the resurgent White Sox, pre-Dick Allen, were closer to winning a World Series than the oh-so-talented and oh-so-close Cubs.

And, as it turned out, he was right.

Given another 3.5 decades, maybe Paul Sullivan, who I know is held in high esteem on WSI, will be right.

JB98
06-10-2015, 02:14 AM
Tonight's game was going to be interesting because Rodon was facing Houston for a second time. You always wonder how rookies will fare "the second time through the league." I'd say Rodon did pretty well. I'm know some say he was rushed, but the kid looks like a big leaguer to me.

Isn't it interesting how the game always seems to find Flowers? I believe he is 3 for 29 with 18 strikeouts when hitting with the bases loaded in his career. Hitting with the bases loaded is supposed to be an advantage, since the pitcher has no place to put you, you know?

The Sox should have scored more tonight, but four was enough thanks to effective pitching.

TomBradley72
06-10-2015, 06:26 AM
Lip
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the S. O. S. reload. It's organizational philosophy, IMO. (That means JR) As to whether you should do a 5 year plan with Sale and Abreu in place is another question. Would you? Would I?

Flowers is not a contact hitter, but Fields (once a Sox property?) was throwing BB's. And Sanchez takes charge of the play on that popup double. Where was he in the 9th? Robertson fooled exactly one of the four hitters he faced, the hopeless Colby Rasmus. I'm worried about him.


I think the whole assumption that the "reload" in the offseason somehow is in conflict with long term rebuilding is a false premise.

They had payroll room to add Robertson (FA- no other option in the system to be closer), Duke (FA- no other option in the system for LH reliever), Cabrera (FA- no other options in the system until maybe Hawkins is ready),
LaRoche (FA- no other DH options in the system).

The trades to acquire Shark and Jennings only gave up marginal prospects that are not important for the long term.

I don't see how losing a few draft choices this year will derail the long term rebuild- and with the "window' of having Abreu, Sale and Quintana locked up in cost effective contracts- burning a few years in complete rebuild mode would have been a waste of an opportunity.

I don't think the issue with the 2015 White Sox is so much how Hahn's acquisitions have performed- the real issue has been the drop off of Gillaspie vs. last year, Eaton vs. last year, Flowers vs. the 2nd Half 2014 version of Flowers, and Ramirez (hitting and defense) vs. last year- IF those guys were performing at their 2014 levels- we'd be a few games over .500 and solidly in the race.

ChiSoxGal85
06-10-2015, 07:31 AM
Somehow I edited this out of the TBGR, but I noted that Astros hitters fouled off a LOT of Rodon's pitches. Whether that will be a characteristics of his outings, I suppose remains to be seen. I was really impressed with how Rodon battled through it all last night.

Yeah, Flowers? Not so impressed, although behind the scenes he may be contributing to Rodon's success. So I'll give him a very small pass.

asindc
06-10-2015, 08:02 AM
Then there is the relevancy factor, a rebuild would put the Sox in the same boat as the Chicago Fire. Also attendance would be between 1m -1.25m. Then there is the TV contract coming up, maybe soon after the rebuild or during it. I dont often agree with j.r. but this time I do.

Yep. As much criticism and blame JR and KW have gotten (and earned in some cases), I would love for any fan advocating a full-scale tear down and rebuild to have to explain it face-to-face to Sale and Abreu. And please come back and report to the rest of us how it went.

Railsplitter
06-10-2015, 08:04 AM
Small steps...
:bandance::bandance:

asindc
06-10-2015, 08:10 AM
Rodon is getting better but he still needs better command. What I liked tonight is that I saw him throw some changeups. That's good. As someone else said, when that becomes a reliable third pitch he's going to be joining the elite. Well... when that becomes a reliable third pitch and he throws strikes consistently. But you can see it coming.

Montas threw a 7 inning no-hitter in Birmingham today. Be real nice if he turns into a major league starter too.

Missing that pop-up at the end was ugly (as was Tyler missing the foul pop-up eariler) but outfielders were wandering around after fly balls all night long. I don't recall Stone or Hawl saying anything about the wind but it was clearly messing with balls high in the air. Almost ever catch you saw the fielders wandering this way and that after the ball. I'll cut the guys some slack for the missed ones tonight.

I also thought the wind was a major factor (Hawk and Stone should have mentioned it), but that 9th inning pop up was inexcusable, considering that there were no baserunners at the time so Bonafacio had no other responsibilities to concern himself with. And Flowers must be the worst bases-loaded hitter I"ve ever seen. I hate to use the C-word, but his terrible plate coverage only explains part of it.

As for the rest of the game, Rodon pitched his best game yet. He seemed to adjust very well to hitters. If they were timing his fastball, he went slider/change, if they were looking slider, then fastball (usually inside). He saved his best fastballs for the right situations. When that change becomes consistent, well... I hope Melky's good night provides a springboard for him. The plan all along was to have the top 5-6 in the lineup carry the team, and he is a vital cog, of course. Also a thumbs-up to Avi, who continues to play big.

russ99
06-10-2015, 08:21 AM
Somehow I edited this out of the TBGR, but I noted that Astros hitters fouled off a LOT of Rodon's pitches. Whether that will be a characteristics of his outings, I suppose remains to be seen. I was really impressed with how Rodon battled through it all last night.

After a hot start the Astros hitters are really scuffling right now.

Forcing them to have to swing out of the zone early in at-bats due to the enlarged strike zone didn't help them much either.

I hope they break out of it on Friday. :D:

Golden Sox
06-10-2015, 08:30 AM
1) I saw Paul Sullivan at the Cell walking around the concourse at last years PK day and I asked him what he thought the White Sox would do to improve the team in the off season. He said the White Sox don't have the money to sign any free agents. They would start a youth movement. The White Sox then went out and signed 4 free agents.
2) Other than Bryant and MAYBE Russell are there any young players the bad guys have you would want on the White Sox?
3) How would have White Sox fans felt about spending over $200 million on Edwin Jackson and Jon Lester? (Lester is 4-5 with a ERA over 4.00)
4) Maybe Sullivan is trying to become the new Jay "Woman Beater" Mariotti with his constant bashing of the White Sox.
5) Although this has been a disturbing start to the 2015 White Sox season the bad guys on the Northside have won only 3 more games than the White Sox. If this team ever starts hitting we'll win more games than the bad guys on the Northside.
6) Is he going to tell me the Cubs wouldn't want Sale, Rodon and Quintana in their rotation? Or Robertson in their bullpen?
7) In otherwords screw him.

Dan H
06-10-2015, 08:48 AM
I don't read Sullivan because he hates Sox fans and ends up beating that tiresome attendance drum. I save myself from raising blood pressure by not reading him. Objectivity doesn't exist with him and he's nothing but a Cub lover who likes the Sox lose. I don't even know why Lip bothers reasoning with him. It's useless.

Concerning the Sox offseason moves: I don't have any problem with any of them despite the fact they haven't worked out so far. This was not "going for it." This was an example of seeing a team having so many holes to fill and so something was done. Something had to be done. Did anyone want to see Viciedo in left field again? And just who was to provide power from the left side?

The Sox have a long way go, everyone knows that. It is painful to watch this team. At least they have two solid pitchers in Sale and Rodon. And Garcia is developing. All is not bad. It is just hard to suffer through another non-contending season.

If Hahn is a good baseball man, I would hope that the organization would let him do his job and give it a real shot at rebuilding this team. Meanwhile the Cubs and Astros have not won a single playoff game since 2005, Sullivan.

voodoochile
06-10-2015, 09:00 AM
Noneck:

I wasn't sure that was allowed since it circumvents the Tribune's process so I thought the best thing to do was not do what you suggest. It's not quite kosher but if the mods allow it, I will in the future.

Lip

You can always posts links. It's the quotes that cause issues. Links and summaries are never a problem and are the preferred method.

kobo
06-10-2015, 09:02 AM
By the way Paul Sullivan has an interesting column tonight in the Tribune comparing the total rebuild of the Astros and Cubs to what the Sox did.


There was absolutely nothing interesting in that column. And again Sullivan has to bring up attendance when talking about the Sox.

slavko
06-10-2015, 09:22 AM
Respect? Respect? For Sully? He's a Cubbie Lover who yanked the wrong boss's chain and was sentenced to work on the south side for two years back when. He's been getting even ever since.

Tragg
06-10-2015, 09:51 AM
I think the whole assumption that the "reload" in the offseason somehow is in conflict with long term rebuilding is a false premise.
I agree and certainly no conclusions can be drawn until one of the 3 makes the playoffs.
I never thought this team was fully reloaded this year. Too many holes. They needed another year of reloading. Should have moved Alexei off of a near career year at 32. The Shark rent was a "cherry on top" move, falsely signalling that the team was ready.
Also strange is last year they keep inexpensive Semien, and insist on playing defensively dependable Leury. And yet this year, they had enough of Leury and replace him with a $4 million utility infielder.
The Sox passed on the best hitter in the draft, when the best part of the upper minors and major league team is pitching. And then they pick more pitchers.
I have to think some moves are coming.
The Pirates got Cervelli for a relief pitcher...hopefully we can find moves like that (although I'm willing to accept an offensive hole at C).

BTW, the Astros did make some "go for it moves" last winter. They loaded up with a veteran pen. They traded 3 sold second tier prospects for Gattis, a poor defender boom/bust hitter who would infuriate Sox fans.

GoSox2K3
06-10-2015, 10:38 AM
Yea he was the guy that that reminded the carnival barker of Harmon Killebrew.

Do you mean Kenny or Hawk?

Noneck
06-10-2015, 10:54 AM
Do you mean Kenny or Hawk?

harrelson

Williams is Charlie McCarthy

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 10:54 AM
Respect? Respect? For Sully? He's a Cubbie Lover who yanked the wrong boss's chain and was sentenced to work on the south side for two years back when. He's been getting even ever since.

Not defending Sully but he covered the Sox over a lot longer than two years. When I interviewed him for the web site he told me in actuality he is a Sox fan, grew up a Sox fan and that some of his best baseball memories were at Comiskey Park. He was in the stands for example during Hawkins' lost no-hitter. He said he requested leaving the Sox beat back in the day because he couldn't stand being around Bevington any longer. And I can also tell you his personal e-mail has a Sox reference in it for what that may be worth to you.

I think since he's become the national baseball writer (not specific to any one team) his material has gotten much better but that's just me.

Lip

Foulke You
06-10-2015, 10:58 AM
I think the whole assumption that the "reload" in the offseason somehow is in conflict with long term rebuilding is a false premise.

They had payroll room to add Robertson (FA- no other option in the system to be closer), Duke (FA- no other option in the system for LH reliever), Cabrera (FA- no other options in the system until maybe Hawkins is ready),
LaRoche (FA- no other DH options in the system).

The trades to acquire Shark and Jennings only gave up marginal prospects that are not important for the long term.

I don't see how losing a few draft choices this year will derail the long term rebuild- and with the "window' of having Abreu, Sale and Quintana locked up in cost effective contracts- burning a few years in complete rebuild mode would have been a waste of an opportunity.

I don't think the issue with the 2015 White Sox is so much how Hahn's acquisitions have performed- the real issue has been the drop off of Gillaspie vs. last year, Eaton vs. last year, Flowers vs. the 2nd Half 2014 version of Flowers, and Ramirez (hitting and defense) vs. last year- IF those guys were performing at their 2014 levels- we'd be a few games over .500 and solidly in the race.
Excellent post. 100% agree.

WhiffleBall
06-10-2015, 11:14 AM
Not defending Sully but he covered the Sox over a lot longer than two years. When I interviewed him for the web site he told me in actuality he is a Sox fan, grew up a Sox fan and that some of his best baseball memories were at Comiskey Park. He was in the stands for example during Hawkins' lost no-hitter. He said he requested leaving the Sox beat back in the day because he couldn't stand being around Bevington any longer. And I can also tell you his personal e-mail has a Sox reference in it for what that may be worth to you.

I think since he's become the national baseball writer (not specific to any one team) his material has gotten much better but that's just me.

Lip

While he won't be winning any Pulitzers anytime soon Sullivan is a fun read. He is so much better than Phil Rogers. Phil Rogers was/is just opinion, rumors, and some stats while Sullivan adds a bit of inside knowledge and humor. You are right that he gets a bad rap as being a cubbie mouthpiece when in fact he covered the Sox before the cubs. The reason these journalists bring up the Sox attendance issue is because it is a real problem. 27th in attendance in a metropolitan area the size of Chicagoland is pretty sad.

doublem23
06-10-2015, 11:31 AM
Tonight's game was going to be interesting because Rodon was facing Houston for a second time. You always wonder how rookies will fare "the second time through the league." I'd say Rodon did pretty well. I'm know some say he was rushed, but the kid looks like a big leaguer to me.

I agree, it looked like maybe a panic move backfired when Carlos came up and looked pretty much like a deer in the headlights his first few starts, but he's really turned a nice corner. Looks like time spent with the MLB coaching staff is paying off. Sky's still the limit on how good he can be.

shingo10
06-10-2015, 11:41 AM
Anyone else surprised Rodon was allowed to throw 116 pitches? I shudder to think about what this place will turn to if he goes on the DL like Sale did last year after game against Boston.

Also, is he on an innings count? Will suck if he pitches his last game of the season in August and we're forced to relive Danks/Noesi combo again.

Again, I'm amazed at how close to .500 this team given how bad they have looked seemingly all year. Hope this is the start of catching fire.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 11:46 AM
Anyone else surprised Rodon was allowed to throw 116 pitches? I shudder to think about what this place will turn to if he goes on the DL like Sale did last year after game against Boston.

Also, is he on an innings count? Will suck if he pitches his last game of the season in August and we're forced to relive Danks/Noesi combo again.

Again, I'm amazed at how close to .500 this team given how bad they have looked seemingly all year. Hope this is the start of catching fire.

I think the Sox have told the media they are trying to watch his innings (which is why Noesi is still making the occasional start) but I've never heard them say he throws a specific number and then he's done (a la Strasberg a few years back)

Lip

cards press box
06-10-2015, 12:04 PM
This team runs Tyler Flowers and Emilio Bonifacio up there, who both promptly strike out. Sure enough, the Astros add two runs in the 9th, and we're forced to use Robertson.

I was at the game last night. Soto was the DH, so they really couldn't pinch hit for Flowers. They could have pinch hit Shuck for Bonifacio, though, and put Sanchez at 2B for the 9th inning. At the time, I thought that Shuck had a better chance at knocking in at least one run than Bonifacio did.

I think the whole assumption that the "reload" in the offseason somehow is in conflict with long term rebuilding is a false premise. They had payroll room to add Robertson (FA- no other option in the system to be closer), Duke (FA- no other option in the system for LH reliever), Cabrera (FA- no other options in the system until maybe Hawkins is ready), LaRoche (FA- no other DH options in the system).

The trades to acquire Shark and Jennings only gave up marginal prospects that are not important for the long term.

I don't see how losing a few draft choices this year will derail the long term rebuild- and with the "window' of having Abreu, Sale and Quintana locked up in cost effective contracts- burning a few years in complete rebuild mode would have been a waste of an opportunity.

I don't think the issue with the 2015 White Sox is so much how Hahn's acquisitions have performed- the real issue has been the drop off of Gillaspie vs. last year, Eaton vs. last year, Flowers vs. the 2nd Half 2014 version of Flowers, and Ramirez (hitting and defense) vs. last year- IF those guys were performing at their 2014 levels- we'd be a few games over .500 and solidly in the race.

Bingo. To me, the most important part of a rebuild is pitching. In the near future, the Sox could have the following starting pitchers

Chris Sale
Carlos Rodon
Carson Fulmer
Frankie Montas
Spencer Adams
Jose Quintana

Houston and the Cubs may have prospects (including Carlos Correa who looks a star in the making) but does either team project a similar starting staff? I don't think so.

And given the progress that Montas has made this year (including a no-hitter last night for Birmingham), it wouldn't exactly surprise me if he Sox dealt Jeff Samardzija before the trading deadline for some prospects.

Yes, the Sox dealt Marcus Semien to get Samardzija. But Semien is a good hitting middle infielder who can't field all that well. I'd be surprised if the Sox dealt the Shark mid-season and didn't get back a prospect or prospects with a higher ceiling than Semien.

I don't read Sullivan because he hates Sox fans and ends up beating that tiresome attendance drum. I save myself from raising blood pressureby not reading him. Objectivity doesn't exist with him and he's nothing but a Cub lover who likes the Sox lose. I don't even know why Lip bothers reasoning with him. It's useless.

Concerning the Sox offseason moves: I don't have any problem with any of them despite the fact they haven't worked out so far. This was not "going for it." This was an example of seeing a team having so many holes to fill and so something was done. Something had to be done. Did anyone want to see Viciedo in left field again? And just who was to provide power fromthe left side?

The Sox have a long way go, everyone knows that. It is painful to watch this team. At least they have two solid pitchers in Sale and Rodon. And Garcia is developing. All is not bad. It is just hard to suffer through another non-contending season.

If Hahn is a good baseball man, I would hope that the organization would let him do his job and give it a real shot at rebuilding this team. Meanwhile the Cubs and Astros have not won a single playoff game since 2005, Sullivan.

I agree that Sullivan does have a Cub slant. Put it this way, if the Cubs had premised their rebuild on developing a pitching staff and had developed the starters that the Sox have, he would certainly be lauding the Cubs for that. He is hardly lauding the Sox for drafting the best college starter in 2010 (Chris Sale), 2014 (Carlos Rodon) and 2015 (Carson Fulmer).

With that, let me also say that last night's game was a lot of fun!

:winner

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 12:28 PM
Cards:

You make a lot of valid points but I'd also add pitching may be the most important part of the program but it's not the only part and as history shows the Sox have done a poor job finding and developing solid major league positional players in quantity and quality since the days of Ordonez, Lee, Rowand, Crede et al.

The Sox could have the reincarnation of their brilliant staffs of the 1950's and 1960's but without balance, good hitters as well as good pitchers they are going to have a hard time winning championships. (Although at this point in time I'd be doing back flip for a winning season even if it was just a few games over .500)

Lip

Tragg
06-10-2015, 02:08 PM
Tonight's game was going to be interesting because Rodon was facing Houston for a second time. You always wonder how rookies will fare "the second time through the league." I'd say Rodon did pretty well. I'm know some say he was rushed, but the kid looks like a big leaguer to me.
Also, the he was the second lefty in a row the Astros faced, so he lost some of the unfamiliarity aspect there too that sometimes lefties get. See how Q does today, with 3 in a row.
Glad to see he threw several changeups.

FielderJones
06-10-2015, 02:33 PM
The reason these journalists bring up the Sox attendance issue is because it is a real problem.

Absolutely not. The White Sox stadium and TV deals keep them profitable unless attendance were to reach 1970 levels.

The real reason journalists bring up Sox attendance is that it was part of the Tribune Company marketing strategy. Chicago's Very Own Media Monopoly that happened to own a crappy baseball team used all their outlets to subtly or not-so-subtly denigrate the Sox while marketing their old ballpark. 37 year old habits die hard.

Mohoney
06-10-2015, 05:01 PM
I was at the game last night. Soto was the DH, so they really couldn't pinch hit for Flowers. They could have pinch hit Shuck for Bonifacio, though, and put Sanchez at 2B for the 9th inning. At the time, I thought that Shuck had a better chance at knocking in at least one run than Bonifacio did.

It's not the fact that these two weren't lifted for pinch-hitters that upsets me. The fact that these two utterly useless baseball players are on the roster in the first place is what upsets me.

ricker182
06-10-2015, 05:26 PM
Absolutely not. The White Sox stadium and TV deals keep them profitable unless attendance were to reach 1970 levels.

The real reason journalists bring up Sox attendance is that it was part of the Tribune Company marketing strategy. Chicago's Very Own Media Monopoly that happened to own a crappy baseball team used all their outlets to subtly or not-so-subtly denigrate the Sox while marketing their old ballpark. 37 year old habits die hard.

Exactly. The stadium could be empty every game and the Sox would still turn a sizable profit.

Stadium attendance is practically irrelevant besides maybe the players not getting "pumped up", but it looks like a full stadium doesn't help them either.

ricker182
06-10-2015, 05:29 PM
Lip,

I assume you must subscribe to the trib online, a lot here dont. If you could just copy and paste the name of the article you refer to, it will help others out.



Astros and Cubs total rebuild doing better than White Sox's reload




I disagree.
For one, we're in a tough division.
The cubs are a ~.500 team and the Sox will be a ~.500 team.

I have no idea what the Astros will do, but my gut tells me they'll actually be under .500 by season's end.

Noneck
06-10-2015, 05:43 PM
I disagree.
For one, we're in a tough division.
The cubs are a ~.500 team and the Sox will be a ~.500 team.

I have no idea what the Astros will do, but my gut tells me they'll actually be under .500 by season's end.


I dont think you understood my post.

Lip Man 1
06-10-2015, 05:45 PM
Absolutely not. The White Sox stadium and TV deals keep them profitable unless attendance were to reach 1970 levels.

From a financial standpoint I agree with you 100%, from a relevance to the Chicago sports fan (which also leads to marketing / advertising opportunities) I think the Sox have a real problem.

I posted this a few weeks ago and I'll say it again, I was told in mid-May that JR simply can not understand why fans won't come out despite heavily discounted tickets. When the owner is feeling that way I have to assume that he believes it to be a problem, despite the financial situation. If it wasn't why would he even care?

Lip

TDog
06-10-2015, 07:15 PM
From a financial standpoint I agree with you 100%, from a relevance to the Chicago sports fan (which also leads to marketing / advertising opportunities) I think the Sox have a real problem.

I posted this a few weeks ago and I'll say it again, I was told in mid-May that JR simply can not understand why fans won't come out despite heavily discounted tickets. When the owner is feeling that way I have to assume that he believes it to be a problem, despite the financial situation. If it wasn't why would he even care?

Lip


How "relevant" would the White Sox be if they had two or more consecutive 100-loss seasons while telling fans they were rebuilding? The Astros had three straight 100-loss seasons before losing 92-last year.

If you are concerned about relevance, doing what the Cubs or Astros would render the team hopelessly irrelevant, no matter how promising their prospects might be.

Mohoney
06-10-2015, 07:28 PM
How "relevant" would the White Sox be if they had two or more consecutive 100-loss seasons while telling fans they were rebuilding? The Astros had three straight 100-loss seasons before losing 92-last year.

If you are concerned about relevance, doing what the Cubs or Astros would render the team hopelessly irrelevant, no matter how promising their prospects might be.

Nothing a few World Series titles wouldn't fix. There weren't many franchises in pro sports more irrelevant than the Blackhawks were about a decade ago. Look at them now, after stockpiling high-end talent through the draft and trades.

MISoxfan
06-10-2015, 07:57 PM
Intentionally tanking is gross. If you don't want to spend money in an off season because you aren't ready, by all means don't spend the money, but setting out to be the worst team in the league like the Cubs did is gross.

voodoochile
06-10-2015, 08:15 PM
Exactly. The stadium could be empty every game and the Sox would still turn a sizable profit.

Stadium attendance is practically irrelevant besides maybe the players not getting "pumped up", but it looks like a full stadium doesn't help them either.

This is just flat wrong...

Brian26
06-10-2015, 09:27 PM
Exactly. The stadium could be empty every game and the Sox would still turn a sizable profit.

Stadium attendance is practically irrelevant besides maybe the players not getting "pumped up", but it looks like a full stadium doesn't help them either.

Major League Baseball's global media arm is stretched out now so that their online platform is being used by other sporting leagues and Hollywood to stream live events. They might as well have a printing press set up at MLB Headquarters. To some extent, what you say above is true. It doesn't matter if the Sox sell thousands of $7 seats in the upper deck every game in tandem with hotdogs and beverages. The money they are making from their media efforts, along with the television deals, is remarkable compared to the ticket, parking and concession sales. Those profits aren't irrelevant, but they are absolutely less relevant than they used to be.

Noneck
06-10-2015, 09:40 PM
I doubt any profits are irrelevant to the Sox.

TDog
06-10-2015, 10:00 PM
Nothing a few World Series titles wouldn't fix. There weren't many franchises in pro sports more irrelevant than the Blackhawks were about a decade ago. Look at them now, after stockpiling high-end talent through the draft and trades.

I don't follow the NHL and don't know anything about the Black Hawks, but I know that baseball teams that tank for a few years and do a total rebuild don't turn around and start winning World Series titles. I don't know the dynamics of NHL rosters, and I didn. I've seen teams become competitive. I've seen the A's trade all of their good young players for players who turned out to be even better before trading them for prospects that put them back in the cellar.

I have never seen teams win a few World Series titles after tanking for multiple 100-loss seasons to restock talent. The idea that this is a good plan in baseball is a fantasy. The idea that anyone aside from me and a few posters here would get excited about the White Sox having a chance to be contend after multiple 100-loss seasons is unrealistic.

Hitmen77
06-11-2015, 10:26 AM
Lip,

I assume you must subscribe to the trib online, a lot here dont. If you could just copy and paste the name of the article you refer to, it will help others out.


Astros and Cubs total rebuild doing better than White Sox's reload



If one puts this into google search , it can be read without a subscription.

But, the Astros and Cubs have been in "rebuild" for longer, no? Of course it's easy to say they're ahead of the White Sox "reload" effort. The Sox won 85 games in 2012 while the Cubs and Astros had triple digit losses that year. The Cubs and Astros also lost 91 and 107 games, respectively, in 2011.

For columnists to say that those other teams are "ahead" of the White Sox when they've had a 2 year head start on 90+ loss seasons is misleading.

Absolutely not. The White Sox stadium and TV deals keep them profitable unless attendance were to reach 1970 levels.

The real reason journalists bring up Sox attendance is that it was part of the Tribune Company marketing strategy. Chicago's Very Own Media Monopoly that happened to own a crappy baseball team used all their outlets to subtly or not-so-subtly denigrate the Sox while marketing their old ballpark. 37 year old habits die hard.

I think attendance is legitimately a long-term concern, but for people to beat the attendance drum now when the Sox are coming off of 99 loss and 89 loss seasons (and are off to a sometimes-frustrating start this season) is complete nonsense. You're right that reports like to keep beating that drum even now because it's an easy way to denigrate the White Sox and Sox fans.

I think reporters know full well how the dynamics of attendance works and how it takes a while to bounce back after several disappointing seasons. Yet, they willfully ignore the realities of ticket demand because it makes better headlines for them to keep bashing Sox attendance.

Mohoney
06-11-2015, 10:40 AM
But, the Astros and Cubs have been in "rebuild" for longer, no? Of course it's easy to say they're ahead of the White Sox "reload" effort. The Sox won 85 games in 2012 while the Cubs and Astros had triple digit losses that year. The Cubs and Astros also lost 91 and 107 games, respectively, in 2011.

For columnists to say that those other teams are "ahead" of the White Sox when they've had a 2 year head start on 90+ loss seasons is misleading.

Plus, the fact that this wasn't even Rick Hahn's team until the bottom fell out in 2013 is completely ignored. Then again, this is what happens when people expect a Frodo Sullivan column to serve any more useful purpose than lining the bottom of a bird cage.

jdm2662
06-11-2015, 10:57 AM
Plus, the fact that this wasn't even Rick Hahn's team until the bottom fell out in 2013 is completely ignored. Then again, this is what happens when people expect a Frodo Sullivan column to serve any more useful purpose than lining the bottom of a bird cage.

Yeah, remember when everyone was questioning that the Sox had no plan while Theo was a genius, etc? Obviously, the Sox have work to do, but Hahn has made some nice moves. And unlike some, I was in favor of all the moves in the off season. They had money to spend, and I fail to see improving the roster is a bad thing. It's not like they signed a bunch to guys to long ass contracts. Sometimes, off season moves don't work out as you expect them.

jdm2662
06-11-2015, 11:20 AM
I think attendance is legitimately a long-term concern, but for people to beat the attendance drum now when the Sox are coming off of 99 loss and 89 loss seasons (and are off to a sometimes-frustrating start this season) is complete nonsense. You're right that reports like to keep beating that drum even now because it's an easy way to denigrate the White Sox and Sox fans.

I think reporters know full well how the dynamics of attendance works and how it takes a while to bounce back after several disappointing seasons. Yet, they willfully ignore the realities of ticket demand because it makes better headlines for them to keep bashing Sox attendance.

Season ticket/advance tickets are not very high. 20,000 aren't going to flock to the ball park on a nice night for the hell of it. That's not how it works, and it never has. There is little incentive right now to buy tickets in advance. They aren't in high demand. I haven't bought tickets in advance since the 2011 season. Why? Because, I don't need to. I can go as a I please. And really, the demand is high when ticket brokers gobble up the tickets, ala in 2006 and 2007.

My brother and his friend got a ticket package right before the Blackhawks took off. It's a small number of maybe 7 or 11 games, I'm not sure. They both have small children now, and can't go to games at will anymore. They can sell more than half of their games and make enough money to pay for the entire package. Tickets that I used to pay $8 for, they can sell for over $150 for a week night game. You can hardly do that with Sox games.