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Lip Man 1
06-02-2015, 10:38 PM
In the wake of Kenny's comments to the Sun-Times Tuesday morning now comes Rick Hahn's turn:

http://m.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article/128167772/white-sox-formulating-deadline-contingencies

Hahn also used the dreaded phrase, "there's time" in the story. :rolleyes:

I wish it were otherwise but I still expect a sell off of players in about a month.

There's no way in hell even if all these guys started playing to their "norms" as Rick thinks they'll do, that the Sox will be able to pass two, three or four teams and get in the race. Division is brutal, much harder than anticipated (I mean the Twins? Really???)

It was hard enough with Kansas City and Detroit. The brutal, lethargic start which had its seeds planted in a terrible spring training took their toll and destroyed any real momentum this team had from the off season.

The comments from both Kenny and Hahn to me sound like "whistling past the grave yard" in an effort from having the Sox completely fall off the radar in a few weeks.

Lip

Soxman219
06-02-2015, 10:43 PM
We're in trouble. Losing all those divisional games early in the season is already coming back to haunt us.

JB98
06-02-2015, 11:02 PM
I wouldn't expect him to say anything different. That's pretty much what he has to say. But realistically, the Sox have struggled from spring training up until now. We can talk about how guys should come back to career norms, but they have some players -- most notably Cabrera and Ramirez -- who are looking just as bad as they have all season.

It sucks, but there's no hope for this year, and I hope they can get some decent value for the veterans they are able to deal.

kittle42
06-02-2015, 11:16 PM
It sucks, but there's no hope for this year, and I hope they can get some decent value for the veterans they are able to deal.

That is correct. Step two is to fire the manager and the coaches.

Lip Man 1
06-02-2015, 11:19 PM
That is correct. Step two is to fire the manager and the coaches.

Kittle:

But remember Kenny says they are not to blame right? :D:. (Of course I wouldn't expect him to say anything along those lines publicly since hiring Ventura was his idea completely. Rip Ventura and it makes him look bad.)

Lip

tstrike2000
06-03-2015, 10:09 AM
Ventura's not going anywhere unless Jerry finally sells the team or Robin quits.

Irishsox1
06-03-2015, 01:23 PM
Until Rick Hahn fires Ventura (which he should have done after last year) and hires his own manager, he appears to be Kenny's puppet. Hahn should fire Ventura now and let him hire whomever he wants to hire.

Part of this whole nonsense reminds me so of the Bulls with Jerry Krause from 1999 to 2003. Success in the past but a horrible present, too much loyality from Jerry Reinsdorf and a head coach/manager who's clearly a bad coach.

Church Turtle
06-03-2015, 01:37 PM
http://www.canajunfinances.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Farm-Film-Report-300x200.jpg
The boys at the Farm Film Report say "It's time to Blow it Up Real Good"
"Yup, REEEAL GOOOOD."

LITTLE NELL
06-03-2015, 02:05 PM
Nothing to worry about, "The team is built for the long haul".

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 04:45 PM
Doug Padilla ‏@ESPNChiSox (https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox) 3m3 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox/status/611287519037100035)

GM Rick Hahn says the status of manager Robin Ventura has not changed. "We're all in this together," Hahn said.

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 04:46 PM
Chuck Garfien ‏@ChuckGarfien (https://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien) 29s29 seconds ago (https://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/611288604090961920)

Rick Hahn says that trade chatter has recently picked up.

Rick Hahn on Jerry Reinsdorf: "From a frustration standpoint, he's right there with all the rest of us."

ricker182
06-17-2015, 05:33 PM
Doug Padilla ‏@ESPNChiSox (https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox) 3m3 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox/status/611287519037100035)

GM Rick Hahn says the status of manager Robin Ventura has not changed. "We're all in this together," Hahn said.

THAT'S THE BLEEPING PROBLEM! :angry:

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 05:43 PM
Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin) 10m10 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/611300360578277377)

Hahn: "We are all accountable together and we are all doing everything in our energy and efforts to put ourselves...
. in the best position to win. Should we get to the point where any of that changes, you’ll know and we’ll explain why."

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 05:46 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen ‏@CST_soxvan (https://twitter.com/CST_soxvan) 19m19 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/CST_soxvan/status/611298889510055937)

Rick Hahn: "We need to clean that stuff (defense, baserunning) up but the larger issue right now for me is the offensive performance.''

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 05:54 PM
In short EVERYTHING is just about screwed up with this team.

Lip

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 05:58 PM
Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin) 9m9 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/611304226178867201)

Ventura: "I have rant and raved before. You don't get to see that."


Ventura: "I'm not going to do it for everybody else to see just because they want to see it. Inside there, they get to see it."

cards press box
06-17-2015, 05:58 PM
I wish it were otherwise but I still expect a sell off of players in about a month.

If the Sox are buried come late July, then there is nothing else to do.

Who exactly would they move on the trade market? The most likely guys to go, based on what they would bring back, would be Jeff Samardzija, Alexei Ramirez and Adam LaRoche. Lip, do you see anyone else going?

#1swisher
06-17-2015, 06:01 PM
Colleen Kane ‏@ChiTribKane (https://twitter.com/ChiTribKane) 10m10 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ChiTribKane/status/611305090629115906) Here's what White Sox GM Rick Hahn had to say about Robin Ventura's job today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHvKvbCWcAEwlUP.jpg

XplodingScorbord
06-17-2015, 06:58 PM
Ventura's not going anywhere unless Jerry finally sells the team or Robin quits.

Oh please. The Sox haven't fired a manager in the 35 years Reinsdorf has owned the team?

BainesHOF
06-17-2015, 07:04 PM
Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin) 9m9 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/611304226178867201)

Ventura: "I have rant and raved before. You don't get to see that."


Ventura: "I'm not going to do it for everybody else to see just because they want to see it. Inside there, they get to see it."

This is beside the point and a defense to a strawman argument. It's about results.

Tragg
06-17-2015, 07:33 PM
THAT'S THE BLEEPING PROBLEM! :angry:

yep - all in the family.


And no one says Ventura has to rant and rave. He needs to win some games.

WhiteSox5187
06-17-2015, 07:44 PM
Oh please. The Sox haven't fired a manager in the 35 years Reinsdorf has owned the team?

In Jerry's 35 years he's fired Tony La Russa, and we know how that turned out, and Gene Lamont, who they replaced with Terry Bevington.

Tragg
06-17-2015, 07:46 PM
JR will fire Ventura.
But that does little.
Will he fire Williams? That's the culture change.
It wouldn't surprise me if this all in the family and chemistry nonsense affects their drafting and player acquisition. "We loved his makeup; he really wants to win."

WhiteSox5187
06-17-2015, 07:49 PM
JR will fire Ventura.
But that does little.
Will he fire Williams? That's the culture change.
It wouldn't surprise me if this all in the family and chemistry nonsense affects their drafting and player acquisition. "We loved his makeup; he really wants to win."

I don't think he will fire either.

Noneck
06-17-2015, 08:40 PM
If Williams ever gets fired or leaves that should also be the end of Hahn and Ventura. Thats of course if its not another puppet put in that position. Guys of that position want their own guys beneath them.

Domeshot17
06-17-2015, 08:45 PM
JR is like an old man just concerned about surrounding himself with people he likes being around until he passes away.

Hahn is a great GM, its a shame he will likely show that elsewhere. What he has been doing with our farm is nothing short of amazing.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2015, 08:59 PM
In Jerry's 35 years he's fired Tony La Russa, and we know how that turned out, and Gene Lamont, who they replaced with Terry Bevington.

Lamont was no loss. (Should have hired a better replacement.)

Noneck
06-17-2015, 09:24 PM
JR is like an old man just concerned about surrounding himself with people he likes being around until he passes away.



It may be that but its also people he can control. A top notch baseball guy wouldnt want meddling from the owner, he wants to have total control of all baseball operations. What I have always heard is that the chairman is a day to day operations guy, that includes baseball operations.

amsteel
06-17-2015, 10:01 PM
Ventura won't get fired. He'll be relieved of manager duties and given a made up front office position to ride out his contract.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 10:07 PM
GM Rick Hahn says the status of manager Robin Ventura has not changed. "We're all in this together," Hahn said.

Translation: "JR (or Kenny) won't allow me to fire him..."

Going to be a very enjoyable final three months isn't it?

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-17-2015, 10:09 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if this all in the family and chemistry nonsense affects their drafting and player acquisition. "We loved his makeup; he really wants to win."

I suspect that it does make an impact. No way to know for sure however.

Lip

Dan H
06-18-2015, 05:40 AM
The title of this thread is "Hahn speaks," and by now I don't care what he or anyone in the organization has to say.

What really matters is what the fans say at this point, and this goes far beyond fans being unhappy with a losing team. Fans, even die-hard fans, don't have faith in this organization. They see the team in a free-fall and doubt that anyone with the White Sox can turn things around.

The White Sox can do what they want. It's their team. Fire Ventura, keep Ventura, whatever. But I don't want to hear any cry baby complaints about attendance if they can't convince their fan base that they have a plan that will work.

soxfanreggie
06-18-2015, 06:29 AM
Ventura won't get fired. He'll be relieved of manager duties and given a made up front office position to ride out his contract.

Like KW being promoted out of the GM role? Although it appears he still has some power.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2015, 07:55 AM
Like KW being promoted out of the GM role? Although it appears he still has some power.

I think, unfortunately, Kenny still has a LOT of power and a lot of say in what happens with this team. I'd feel a lot better about this organization's future if I didn't think Kenny were so involved.

Golden Sox
06-18-2015, 08:07 AM
On my way to the game last night I heard two announcers on the Score say that the White Sox should consider trading Sale and Abreu for young prospects. I realize that one of those mopes is a Cubs fan but still can you think of a more PR disaster if they traded their 2 best players for prospects? Taking everything into account I would like to think they could get a decent return for David Robertson. Robertson is basically useless on a last place team. If we can get some good players for him I would think he's gone.

Tragg
06-18-2015, 08:13 AM
Taking everything into account I would like to think they could get a decent return for David Robertson. Robertson is basically useless on a last place team. If we can get some good players for him I would think he's gone.

Robertson (and the rest of the pen) is someone we should trade; but 4 a year contract will likely mute his value. Prob get more for him in a year or 2.
Sox wait so long on Alexei that they'll get a Rios return - i.e. zero.
Shark is probably where it's at.

Jerko
06-18-2015, 08:22 AM
I'm sorry but every time Hahn, Williams, or Ventura speak lately all I hear is Charlie Brown's teacher.

Golden Sox
06-18-2015, 10:23 AM
Before last nights game I went into the Chicago Sports Depot store. Much to my surprise I saw Hahn walking around the store looking at the store items. He was with 2 young kids. People in the store knew who he was and I noticed that nobody said anything to him. I thought somebody would say something to him but nobody did. I don't envy him. He has a big job ahead of him trying to create something out of this mess of a team.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 11:17 AM
I think, unfortunately, Kenny still has a LOT of power and a lot of say in what happens with this team. I'd feel a lot better about this organization's future if I didn't think Kenny were so involved.

Completely agree.

Lip

BigHurtGuy2
06-18-2015, 12:59 PM
In the wake of Kenny's comments to the Sun-Times Tuesday morning now comes Rick Hahn's turn:

http://m.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article/128167772/white-sox-formulating-deadline-contingencies

Hahn also used the dreaded phrase, "there's time" in the story. :rolleyes:

I wish it were otherwise but I still expect a sell off of players in about a month.

There's no way in hell even if all these guys started playing to their "norms" as Rick thinks they'll do, that the Sox will be able to pass two, three or four teams and get in the race. Division is brutal, much harder than anticipated (I mean the Twins? Really???)

It was hard enough with Kansas City and Detroit. The brutal, lethargic start which had its seeds planted in a terrible spring training took their toll and destroyed any real momentum this team had from the off season.

The comments from both Kenny and Hahn to me sound like "whistling past the grave yard" in an effort from having the Sox completely fall off the radar in a few weeks.

Lip
Until Jerry tells Kenny to step out of the day to day baseball operations stuff that Rick Hahn is supposed to be doing we'll never know if Hahn can improve this team, the players that were brought in last year namely Cabrera & LaRouche have Kenny Williams written all over it.

Flight #24
06-18-2015, 01:21 PM
JR will fire Ventura.
But that does little.
Will he fire Williams? That's the culture change.
It wouldn't surprise me if this all in the family and chemistry nonsense affects their drafting and player acquisition. "We loved his makeup; he really wants to win."

I've never been one to go out of my way to slam the org, esp for any individual decisions as long as there was a reasonable basis to make them.

That said, the recent "era" of WS baseball, and I include pretty much all of the KW/Hahn era (2001 on), includes 2 playoff appearances and the 1 WS title. 2 playoff appearances in 14 years (and gonna be 15 barring a pretty surprising turnaround). That is unacceptable.

During that time, I can't recall a single position player that the Sox drafted and developed who was an upper-tier player let alone a star. The best guys they had were international FAs like Abreu/Ramirez.

To their credit, they have consistently found/developed pitchers including on this team, Sale, Quintana, Rodon. But the lack of internal development of young cheap cornerstones on the field and at bat continues to kill this team.

Top it off with the fact that they're pretty consistently poor defensively despite the platitudes spouted by management.

This org needs a dramatic change ala the Hawks when they brought in McDonough. Need to find a baseball guy to run the org (LaRussa?) and raid a team that has been consistent at acquiring/drafting young talent and then developing it and redo the org from the bottom up. Trade everyone who won't be around and contributing in 3 years when your guys theoretically start to arrive. So basically everyone but Sale, Rodon, Abreu is up for grabs. I'm sick of it.

Chez
06-18-2015, 02:03 PM
That said, the recent "era" of WS baseball, and I include pretty much all of the KW/Hahn era (2001 on), includes 2 playoff appearances and the 1 WS title. 2 playoff appearances in 14 years (and gonna be 15 barring a pretty surprising turnaround). That is unacceptable.

During that time, I can't recall a single position player that the Sox drafted and developed who was an upper-tier player let alone a star. The best guys they had were international FAs like Abreu/Ramirez.

To their credit, they have consistently found/developed pitchers including on this team, Sale, Quintana, Rodon. But the lack of internal development of young cheap cornerstones on the field and at bat continues to kill this team.



Rowand and Crede were both pretty good, but your point is well-taken.

TaylorStSox
06-18-2015, 03:02 PM
People act as if Hahn is being held hostage. If he's just a puppet, why doesn't he leave? Before his failures as GM, he was a hot commodity. He could easily get a job in a different organization. People have really begun to project their fantasies into their posts.

doublem23
06-18-2015, 03:02 PM
That said, the recent "era" of WS baseball, and I include pretty much all of the KW/Hahn era (2001 on), includes 2 playoff appearances and the 1 WS title. 2 playoff appearances in 14 years (and gonna be 15 barring a pretty surprising turnaround). That is unacceptable.

The irony is that this is also basically the Golden Era of White Sox baseball.

captain54
06-18-2015, 03:15 PM
The irony is that this is also basically the Golden Era of White Sox baseball.

No it's not.. throughout the majority of the 50s and 60s the White Sox were contenders practically every year.. From 1951 to 1967 they didn't have one losing season..in 1964 they won 98 games.. you either finished at the top or your league, or went home..

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 03:16 PM
The irony is that this is also basically the Golden Era of White Sox baseball.

I disagree. To me the "Golden Era" was 51-67.

Yes they only made one World Series appearance and lost. However they had 17 straight winnings seasons, seven of them over 90+ wins (and some of those were at a time when they only played 154 games), they got the lion's share of media attention in the town because usually they were very competitive, they had stars --nationally known players and future Hall of Famers on the team (Aparicio, Fox, Wynn, Lopez, Wilhelm) and guys who should have been admitted by now (Minoso, Pierce.)

Those who are younger simply don't have any conception (and this is understandable) how popular the Sox were in this area.

Here's one example Billy Pierce and I talked about. Every year they had the "free fair" around 47th and Damen in the Back of the Yards. Just a huge fair with rides, concessions, booths for games like ring-toss. It was a major event in the summer. Usually lasted 10 days or so.

Every year on one night they'd have "White Sox Night" I used to beg my parents to take me on that night because Sox players would show up.

It was unbelievable how many people turned out, thousands of them just for the chance to get to hear the guys at the mic and maybe meet them.

Billy told me he and Nellie used to take their families but had to stop doing it because they couldn't actually get on any rides and do things...so many fans wanted to say hello, get an autograph. (And Billy wasn't complaining.)

It was an amazing time.

When I spent time with Pete Ward last January in Portland we talked about the same thing. He said it was no different in the early 60's.

Under different circumstances if baseball had expanded playoffs back then the Sox would have made the post season at least six times in that stretch.

Despite only getting to the Series once they had some exceptional teams and they did it over a sustained period of time.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 03:20 PM
People act as if Hahn is being held hostage. If he's just a puppet, why doesn't he leave? Before his failures as GM, he was a hot commodity. He could easily get a job in a different organization. People have really begun to project their fantasies into their posts.

Taylor:

All I can tell you is I what I've been told from sources for whatever that's worth to you.

In addition, Kenny himself told the mainstream media last month that before Hahn can do anything he and his staff have to discuss player issues with him.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that Hahn does not have the authority to do what he pleases. To me it's an unwieldy system.

As far as why Hahn doesn't leave? Maybe he's a loyal person too. Maybe he wanted to see if he could be the guy to turn it around much like individuals have been taking the Cubs jobs for decades trying to do the same thing.

Lip

Noneck
06-18-2015, 03:21 PM
The irony is that this is also basically the Golden Era of White Sox baseball.

Wrong, See Lips post above.

TaylorStSox
06-18-2015, 03:24 PM
Taylor:

All I can tell you is I what I've been told from sources for whatever that's worth to you.

In addition, Kenny himself told the mainstream media last month that before Hahn can do anything he and his staff have to discuss player issues with him.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that Hahn does not have the authority to do what he pleases. To me it's an unwieldy system.

As far as why Hahn doesn't leave? Maybe he's a loyal person too. Maybe he wanted to see if he could be the guy to turn it around much like individuals have been taking the Cubs jobs for decades trying to do the same thing.

Lip
Unnamed sources are meaningless to me.

Hahn has been a part of the organization as long as KW. They've been a team for over a decade. They're both responsible.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 03:27 PM
Unnamed sources are meaningless to me.

Hahn has been a part of the organization as long as KW. They've been a team for over a decade. They're both responsible.

Understand your view and no I'm not going to name them but that doesn't change Kenny's direct comments to the media either. And Kenny is Rick's boss and has been a part of the organization longer than Hahn has.

Lip

TaylorStSox
06-18-2015, 03:31 PM
Understand your view and no I'm not going to name them but that doesn't change Kenny's direct comments to the media either. And Kenny is Rick's boss and has been a part of the organization longer than Hahn has.

Lip

They've worked as a team for over a decade, correct? Outside of signing team friendly contracts, Hahn has been worse as a GM than KW. Let them both walk.

Most of the organization is short sighted. The offseason moves were short sighted. The team has no direction. To say Hahn doesn't have fault in that is disingenuous.

doublem23
06-18-2015, 03:32 PM
No it's not.. throughout the majority of the 50s and 60s the White Sox were contenders practically every year.. From 1951 to 1967 they didn't have one losing season..in 1964 they won 98 games.. you either finished at the top or your league, or went home..

Hm, I hear what you're saying, but this is the collection of White Sox World Series rings from that era:

http://ak3.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4375619/preview/stock-footage-human-hand-counting-from-zero-to-five-white-background.jpg

Maximo
06-18-2015, 03:39 PM
I disagree. To me the "Golden Era" was 51-67.

Yes they only made one World Series appearance and lost. However they had 17 straight winnings seasons, seven of them over 90+ wins (and some of those were at a time when they only played 154 games), they got the lion's share of media attention in the town because usually they were very competitive, they had stars --nationally known players and future Hall of Famers on the team (Aparicio, Fox, Wynn, Lopez, Wilhelm) and guys who should have been admitted by now (Minoso, Pierce.)

Those who are younger simply don't have any conception (and this is understandable) how popular the Sox were in this area.

Here's one example Billy Pierce and I talked about. Every year they had the "free fair" around 47th and Damen in the Back of the Yards. Just a huge fair with rides, concessions, booths for games like ring-toss. It was a major event in the summer. Usually lasted 10 days or so.

Every year on one night they'd have "White Sox Night" I used to beg my parents to take me on that night because Sox players would show up.

It was unbelievable how many people turned out, thousands of them just for the chance to get to hear the guys at the mic and maybe meet them.

Billy told me he and Nellie used to take their families but had to stop doing it because they couldn't actually get on any rides and do things...so many fans wanted to say hello, get an autograph. (And Billy wasn't complaining.)

It was an amazing time.

When I spent time with Pete Ward last January in Portland we talked about the same thing. He said it was no different in the early 60's.

Under different circumstances if baseball had expanded playoffs back then the Sox would have made the post season at least six times in that stretch.

Despite only getting to the Series once they had some exceptional teams and they did it over a sustained period of time.

Just my opinion.

Lip

They also had this thing during the winter called the "Sox Caravan". A bus load full of Sox players would come to your community and make speeches and sign autographs for 3-4 hours in some large 'events buliding'. It was Soxfest, but they came to you and it was the highlight of the off-season.

We never missed it when we were kids and no......I don't remember the Cubs doing the same thing. At least not in South Bend.

captain54
06-18-2015, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=doublem23;3187948]Hm, I hear what you're saying, but this is the collection of White Sox World Series rings from that era:

If you look at the span of 1951 - 1967, the White Sox would probably have qualified for NUMEROUS post season berths under the playoff berth system of the last 15 or so years.., thus chances to win a WS ..

Back then, the best record in each league went to the World Series..Now, the best record in the league could feasibly get you knocked out of the first round..

Apples and Oranges, my friend..

RCWHITESOX
06-18-2015, 03:57 PM
I disagree. To me the "Golden Era" was 51-67.

Yes they only made one World Series appearance and lost. However they had 17 straight winnings seasons, seven of them over 90+ wins (and some of those were at a time when they only played 154 games), they got the lion's share of media attention in the town because usually they were very competitive, they had stars --nationally known players and future Hall of Famers on the team (Aparicio, Fox, Wynn, Lopez, Wilhelm) and guys who should have been admitted by now (Minoso, Pierce.)

Those who are younger simply don't have any conception (and this is understandable) how popular the Sox were in this area.

Here's one example Billy Pierce and I talked about. Every year they had the "free fair" around 47th and Damen in the Back of the Yards. Just a huge fair with rides, concessions, booths for games like ring-toss. It was a major event in the summer. Usually lasted 10 days or so.

Every year on one night they'd have "White Sox Night" I used to beg my parents to take me on that night because Sox players would show up.

It was unbelievable how many people turned out, thousands of them just for the chance to get to hear the guys at the mic and maybe meet them.

Billy told me he and Nellie used to take their families but had to stop doing it because they couldn't actually get on any rides and do things...so many fans wanted to say hello, get an autograph. (And Billy wasn't complaining.)

It was an amazing time.

When I spent time with Pete Ward last January in Portland we talked about the same thing. He said it was no different in the early 60's.

Under different circumstances if baseball had expanded playoffs back then the Sox would have made the post season at least six times in that stretch.

Despite only getting to the Series once they had some exceptional teams and they did it over a sustained period of time.

Just my opinion.

Lip

I agree 100% The Sox were competitive year in and year out . It was the Yankees, Sox, battling it out most of the time. The Sox were built on pitching and defense and the Yankee's on power and using Kansas City as a farm team. Casey Stengel once said the Sox were made up of little bats giant gloves and great pitching.

Flight #24
06-18-2015, 05:20 PM
Rowand and Crede were both pretty good, but your point is well-taken.

FWLIW, I think both of those were under Schueler (I know KW was director of player development then but it seems like Sox did a lot better when Schu was GM than when KW took over).

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 05:40 PM
Hm, I hear what you're saying, but this is the collection of White Sox World Series rings from that era:

http://ak3.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4375619/preview/stock-footage-human-hand-counting-from-zero-to-five-white-background.jpg

Well if World Series rings is the criteria (or getting to the World Series is a big part of it) then the "Golden Era" of White Sox baseball was early in the 20th century.

Three World Series appearances and two championships between 1906 and 1919. They haven't come close to that since.

I feel there's more to defining an era than that myself but to each his own.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 05:42 PM
They've worked as a team for over a decade, correct? Outside of signing team friendly contracts, Hahn has been worse as a GM than KW. Let them both walk.

Most of the organization is short sighted. The offseason moves were short sighted. The team has no direction. To say Hahn doesn't have fault in that is disingenuous.

I'm sure he's played a part but the final decisions are not his. And in fact he's not had a long enough time in his position of some authority to make a judgment on in my opinion yet.

Considering where the Sox were two years ago to today there has been progress just not on the field yet.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 05:43 PM
They also had this thing during the winter called the "Sox Caravan". A bus load full of Sox players would come to your community and make speeches and sign autographs for 3-4 hours in some large 'events buliding'. It was Soxfest, but they came to you and it was the highlight of the off-season.

We never missed it when we were kids and no......I don't remember the Cubs doing the same thing. At least not in South Bend.

I remember that as well. Only a few teams did that at the time or even now.

Lip

Maximo
06-18-2015, 07:29 PM
I remember that as well. Only a few teams did that at the time or even now.

Lip

Players are different today and that's one of the reasons why if you want a "meet and greet", you have to go to them now days. (Soxfest)

Back then it was a way to build and maintain some semblance of a fan base outside the city of Chicago, so management believed you needed to reach out to the fans by sending the players to them.

My point being that I also agree with the notion that, in my lifetime, the 50's/early 60's were the "Golden Age" as you put it. They were not only competitive, but respected and appreciated by a fandom that stretched from Iowa to Indiana, as well.

whitesoxfan1986
06-18-2015, 08:18 PM
I really don't give a crap what Hahn says. He needs to go.(If they are not going to clean house though, I would like to see what he could do without KW hanging over his head) Along with KW and Buddy Bell. This organization needs an enema to get all of the crap out. I'd give the Phillies more of a chance of winning something than the Sox right now. I give thanks for 2005 otherwise I don't know what I'd have to hang my hat on. Honestly the Sox with their combo of loyal to a fault management and lack of position player talent, have nobody in their system currently(barring a major surprise, and I wouldn't count on it at this point) who will be around for the next Sox division title. And also, more than likely Rodon/Fulmer(if Fulmer signs and they become as good as we hope) will reach FA before that happens. If I were him I wouldn't sign here. IMO the Sox are at least 6 years from winning anything, and probably closer to 8, due to ownership's loyalty to management. We, as fans, have to wait until they get smart and fire KW/Hahn/Bell which is probably 3 years away, and then the 3-5 to rebuild the team under new management. So, we're probably looking at 15+ years without a playoff appearance. Grim, yes, sad, yes, but reality.

I looked at this team before the season and said that if everything goes right, they could win 85. Most likely they will win 78. and if everything goes wrong 70. Well, at this point everything goes wrong looks optimistic, and we're looking at a top 3 pick again. I also think that there is a possibility that the Sox are so bad that by the end of the season Hawk's whole schtick "You're going to win 60 and lose 60" may be proven wrong because the Sox fail to win 60. We might be looking at '76 level here, with no end in sight. JR might be running this joint so far into the ground that we have no Sox when he kicks the bucket because new ownership moves, and that would be a sad day. If the Cubs turn out to actually be a juggernaut then it is likely.

HOWEVER: We don't want the Sox to turn into the '93-2012 Pirates, because that is where they're going. My question is: is there anything, as fans, that we can do, indirectly to tell management to WAKE UP and realize that they are running the team into the damn ground? Obviously dollar votes don't work as the Cell is already empty.

Tragg
06-18-2015, 08:46 PM
FWLIW, I think both of those were under Schueler (I know KW was director of player development then but it seems like Sox did a lot better when Schu was GM than when KW took over).

The drafting and development were a lot better in the late 80s and through the 90s.
This org. is far too concerned about personalities over talent and skill.

Shoeless
06-18-2015, 09:33 PM
If Hahn doesn't try to move everyone outside of Rodon, Sale, and Abreu for prospects, my faith in him is gone and he needs to go. Period.

Also, he needs to fire that idiot at the helm.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2015, 10:15 PM
Players are different today and that's one of the reasons why if you want a "meet and greet", you have to go to them now days. (Soxfest)

Back then it was a way to build and maintain some semblance of a fan base outside the city of Chicago, so management believed you needed to reach out to the fans by sending the players to them.

My point being that I also agree with the notion that, in my lifetime, the 50's/early 60's were the "Golden Age" as you put it. They were not only competitive, but respected and appreciated by a fandom that stretched from Iowa to Indiana, as well.

The Sox had one of the largest radio networks in MLB during that time period as well. Over 100 stations if I remember correctly. Stretched from Southern Wisconsin, through Illinois, Indiana and Iowa all the way surprisingly to Jackson, Mississippi and of course Sarasota and Tampa Florida because the Sox trained in those locations in the spring.

Lip

Andrew C White
06-18-2015, 10:36 PM
http://m.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article/131278860/hahn-performance-will-dictate-timing-of-white-sox-moves

"That's part of the likelihood of being able to get back into the race, but it's more than just a number," Hahn said. "It's about what you're seeing with your eyes in terms of player performance and likelihood of them being able to achieve more, or is this the level you're going to get?"

"This team has shown itself to be underachieving offensively," Hahn said. "So now you need to decide is it reasonable to expect them to get better based on the track records, or is there some reason this isn't going to click from an offensive standpoint, which is going to make it that much more difficult going forward? We just haven't had guys perform at the level that one, they're capable of, and two, more importantly, that we've seen out of them in years past.

"It's getting to the point where it's not early anymore. There is still ample season left. We've still seen numerous teams over a number of years who have gone on tremendous second-half runs, who have gone, even starting in August, to put themselves in a position to go deep into the postseason.

"You can't bank on that though," Hahn said. "As much as we like to look at guys' track records and believe it's going to get better, we're getting to the point where these series or games we're giving away, we're going to have to make up more quickly than just saying it's going to happen out in the future.""or is this the level you're going to get?" - Obviously it is.

That sounds to me like a guy that knows this entire thing has gone south and a sell off is coming as soon as the offers start coming in.

Samardzija, Alexei, LaRoche, maybe Melky, maybe Gillaspie and if we're lucky maybe Danks.

They could bring in some young talent... though it's too bad Alexei wasn't traded when his value was high during the off season following a Silver Slugger and All-Star year. Still, he has a track record, isn't old yet, and is better than a lot of other SS in the league when he doesn't have his head up his ass.

San Diego needs a SS and they have a young defensive catcher. Harder to find a good young lefty 3B that we could actually trade for (that kid in Texas would be great to get but I don't know if we could swing a trade for him). Some young pitching could be had for those veterans though.

And even though the Sox have Hawkins planned for LF and Anderson for SS in a couple years reality is you don't know if they will make it or not so if someone else (and particularly someone better defensively at SS) is major league ready and available then I'd pull the trigger on getting them and deal with the problem of our own guys being ready in a couple years later.

But I'd keep Eaton, Garcia, Abreu, Johnson, Sanchez, Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Robertson and the young guys in the bullpen as the pieces to build around. But I might trade Quintana if it would help bring someone like Gallo from Texas.

Dan H
06-18-2015, 10:47 PM
At this point, if anyone in this organization still thinks there is any chance this team will have even a dead even season this year, that person is not in denial but is delusional. And while it is easy to say "blow it up," it makes no sense to pretend that the team has any chance of turning things around. Hahn can't do anything magical, but having the appearance of sitting around and hoping for the best is absurd. Any changes that can be made should be made even if they don't bring dramatic results.

Andrew C White
06-18-2015, 10:58 PM
At this point, if anyone in this organization still thinks there is any chance this team will have even a dead even season this year, that person is not in denial but is delusional. And while it is easy to say "blow it up," it makes no sense to pretend that the team has any chance of turning things around. Hahn can't do anything magical, but having the appearance of sitting around and hoping for the best is absurd. Any changes that can be made should be made even if they don't bring dramatic results.

Any changes that can be made should be made looking towards the future. Preferably major league ready or near ready youngsters at the positions we need with the hope of competing within the next few years.

This years team stinks and it's going to stink more if we trade away veterans but that's ok cuz it is too late to save this year without a widespread miracle in the dugout. So don't worry about what results this year. It's bad and it's gonna be bad. Get good young fundamentally sound young players and build a team.

Flight #24
06-19-2015, 01:35 PM
But I'd keep Eaton, Garcia, Abreu, Johnson, Sanchez, Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Robertson and the young guys in the bullpen as the pieces to build around. But I might trade Quintana if it would help bring someone like Gallo from Texas.

I'm not as high on this team's short-medium term. I'm looking at the roster and thinking: Who will be there for a potential contending team in 3-4 years? Looking at that and factoring in age, I'm holding on to Sale, Rodon, Abreu, Garcia, maybe Quintana. Anyone else is available for picks/prospects.

Of course, before making ANY trades for kids, I'd want to revamp my development system, which has delivered essentially ZERO position players that I would consider cornerstones in 10+years. Abreu/Garcia/Ramirez don't count as they were either signed or traded for and virtually immediately brought up.

I hate to say it, but I'd want to go get guys like those who identified young talent on the Cubs. At the moment (and yes it's early), most of their bets are panning out and panning out huge. Whereas the Sox have under KW had either no hype/no return or at best some hype/no return from positional prospects. So no point in dealing for someone else's guys if you can't really develop them.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2015, 02:06 PM
I hate to say it, but I'd want to go get guys like those who identified young talent on the Cubs. At the moment (and yes it's early), most of their bets are panning out and panning out huge. Whereas the Sox have under KW had either no hype/no return or at best some hype/no return from positional prospects. So no point in dealing for someone else's guys if you can't really develop them.

Not just the Cubs but I'd take the scouting / front office / developmental people from either the Cardinals, Angels, Tigers or Rays or Giants in a heart beat.

But that's part of the problem too. The Sox don't go (or refuse to go) outside "the family."

Lip

KingXerxes
06-19-2015, 02:25 PM
the sox don't go (or refuse to go) outside "the family."

lip

bingo!

Domeshot17
06-19-2015, 03:57 PM
Not just the Cubs but I'd take the scouting / front office / developmental people from either the Cardinals, Angels, Tigers or Rays or Giants in a heart beat.

But that's part of the problem too. The Sox don't go (or refuse to go) outside "the family."

Lip

Yup, and when you breed/promote from within, and you have a history of being a team that never gets it done, doesn't win with any cosnsitency, you just further worsen the problem.

tstrike2000
06-19-2015, 05:24 PM
Oh please. The Sox haven't fired a manager in the 35 years Reinsdorf has owned the team?

Maybe, someone else would be fired, but not Robin Ventura.