PDA

View Full Version : Alexei, LaRoche, Flowers


Konerko05
05-21-2015, 07:58 PM
Almost every single one of their at-bats is infuriating.

guillensdisciple
05-21-2015, 08:01 PM
Hahahahahahahahahah. Love it. Not laughing at your thread at all. I just came here expecting a very deep and angry paragraph. Instead I get a perfect sentence. I agree, and thank you for the laugh.

white sox bill
05-22-2015, 07:34 AM
At least in the NL when a pitcher who is hitting .100 comes up you expect an out due to what they are. Isnt there some team possibly worse than us that can swap a catcher if we give them a bag of balls???

smac38
05-22-2015, 09:12 AM
I keep hearing the "LaRoche will come back to his career norms" but see no signs of improvement. Sound familiar?

eriqjaffe
05-22-2015, 09:22 AM
I keep hearing the "LaRoche will come back to his career norms" but see no signs of improvement. Sound familiar?1B/DH...former National...first name Adam...

I fail to see any connection.

RCWHITESOX
05-22-2015, 02:14 PM
I keep hearing the "LaRoche will come back to his career norms" but see no signs of improvement. Sound familiar?

I believe LaRoche will have his normal numbers at season end but Flowers is another story. I'm tired about hearing how hard he works and what a good guy he is. He isn't getting any better as a hitter or a catcher. He has to have the weakest arm of all the MLB catchers. As for Ramirez he is just horrible in the cold months and that has been his MO ever since they signed him.

JB98
05-22-2015, 02:33 PM
I believe LaRoche will have his normal numbers at season end but Flowers is another story. I'm tired about hearing how hard he works and what a good guy he is. He isn't getting any better as a hitter or a catcher. He has to have the weakest arm of all the MLB catchers. As for Ramirez he is just horrible in the cold months and that has been his MO ever since they signed him.

Yeah, LaRoche is hitting .265 in May and taking his walks, although I'd like to see more power. When you hit .191 in April, the overall numbers aren't going to look good at this point.

To me, Cabrera has been more disappointing. The guy hit .301 last year with 35 doubles and 16 home runs. This year? .252 with one homer and two doubles about 25 percent of the way into the season. That's a big drop, and it's almost going unnoticed.

It's just very frustrating when players who have hit for other teams suddenly go to hell as soon as they put on Sox uniforms. They just dutifully begin sucking and contribute to these team-wide hitting slumps that seem to last for ages.

infohawk
05-22-2015, 02:59 PM
I believe LaRoche will have his normal numbers at season end but Flowers is another story. I'm tired about hearing how hard he works and what a good guy he is. He isn't getting any better as a hitter or a catcher. He has to have the weakest arm of all the MLB catchers. As for Ramirez he is just horrible in the cold months and that has been his MO ever since they signed him.

Flowers definitely "is what he is." That said, really good catchers are a difficult commodity to come by. There just aren't that many of them and a lot of teams probably get less than stellar production from that position. I would actually prefer a really good defensive catcher that doesn't produce much offensively than a catcher that is so-so offensively and defensively. There's value to being able to handle a staff, shut down the running game, and block balls in the dirt. A guy like that can hit less than .200 and still help a club.

Andrew C White
05-22-2015, 03:01 PM
Flowers definitely "is what he is." That said, really good catchers are a difficult commodity to come by. There just aren't that many of them and a lot of teams probably get less than stellar production from that position. I would actually prefer a really good defensive catcher that doesn't produce much offensively than a catcher that is so-so offensively and defensively. There's value to being able to handle a staff, shut down the running game, and block balls in the dirt. A guy like that can hit less than .200 and still help a club.

Someone like this guy perhaps...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/karkoro01.shtml

DumpJerry
05-22-2015, 03:07 PM
It's just very frustrating when players who have hit for other teams suddenly go to hell as soon as they put on Sox uniforms. They just dutifully begin sucking and contribute to these team-wide hitting slumps that seem to last for ages.


http://media.cleveland.com/tribe_impact/photo/12290863-large.jpg
Yeah, baby.

white sox bill
05-22-2015, 03:54 PM
Someone like this guy perhaps...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/karkoro01.shtml
Officer Karkovice, not just another pretty face!!

Moses_Scurry
05-23-2015, 05:32 AM
It's just very frustrating when players who have hit for other teams suddenly go to hell as soon as they put on Sox uniforms. They just dutifully begin sucking and contribute to these team-wide hitting slumps that seem to last for ages.

:jaime:XL

Pitchers can have a seat at this table, too!

ChiSoxNationPres
05-23-2015, 09:54 AM
There are catchers who I believe are available. Would be very happy getting D. Navarro from the Jays or one of 3 pretty decent guys on the Rockies (Rosario, Hundley, or McKendry).

soxfanreggie
05-23-2015, 10:22 AM
I believe LaRoche will have his normal numbers at season end but Flowers is another story. I'm tired about hearing how hard he works and what a good guy he is. He isn't getting any better as a hitter or a catcher. He has to have the weakest arm of all the MLB catchers. As for Ramirez he is just horrible in the cold months and that has been his MO ever since they signed him.

It doesn't matter how hard some people work. You could run a mile in 6 minutes after training for years to improve your speed. Then you have people who can come close to 5 without a heck of a lot of work. Some people just have elite talent and others don't. Flowers may be a serviceable back-up catcher, but he's no longer cheap at $2.675 million. Maybe when we was $500k or even $950k, he was more of a bargain, but I don't see him being much better than some other back-up we could get for $750k-$1.5 million.

We have a starting catcher who is -0.6 WAR. What about going to get that replacement player? I think we could find plenty of guys with similar or better defense who could do better than .207 BA, .253 OBP, and 3 AB/K.

Andrew C White
05-23-2015, 11:26 AM
If Flowers/Soto aren't going to hit then we really need to at least have a solid defensive catcher out there capable of hitting .200 just like they are.

It's gotta start with defense up the middle. And the catcher is a big part of that.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2015, 11:56 AM
Agreed on all the talk about catchers. SOMEBODY has got to be available who is better this off season. (Can't see the Sox doing anything during it barring something very unexpected.)

And regarding Swisher and Wells...adding insult to injury is the fact that as soon as they left the Sox "suddenly" they got good again and starting producing.

Lip

soxfanreggie
05-23-2015, 11:56 AM
If Flowers/Soto aren't going to hit then we really need to at least have a solid defensive catcher out there capable of hitting .200 just like they are.

It's gotta start with defense up the middle. And the catcher is a big part of that.

Flowers has over 1,100 plate appearances and over 1,000 official at-bats. He's hitting .217 with almost 400 Ks. That's a lot of at-bats where we're not even putting a ball in play to move a runner. His OBP is .284, but continued play like he has been and that will continue to dip. I think he's been given his chances. If he continues to regress from last year, I think the only option is to cut him. If someone is stupid enough to trade for a catcher who cannot hit, play defense, and will soon be 30, I'll gladly take whatever bag of balls for him.

TDog
05-23-2015, 03:09 PM
...
To me, Cabrera has been more disappointing. The guy hit .301 last year with 35 doubles and 16 home runs. This year? .252 with one homer and two doubles about 25 percent of the way into the season. That's a big drop, and it's almost going unnoticed.

It's just very frustrating when players who have hit for other teams suddenly go to hell as soon as they put on Sox uniforms. They just dutifully begin sucking and contribute to these team-wide hitting slumps that seem to last for ages.

I have never been a big Cabrera fan and I thought fans were expecting too much out of him when the Sox signed him. I was hoping the Sox would pursue Cespedes to play left, although I don't think the White Sox were going to be able to put together what the Red Sox wanted for him, just as the White Sox weren't able to get Castro from the Astros a couple of off-seasons ago and got Eaton essentially for what they were offering.

That being said, Cabrera should be a very good No. 2 hitter. He switch hits, so you aren't stacking left-handed hitters at the top of the lineup. He can hit and handle the bat well, he can bunt and he has good speed while being able to play a good left field.

This year, he has hit into too many double plays in front of Abreu, even with two on and none out. But he grounded into 19 double plays last year. Cabrera has had a few moments, though, such as the home run to tie the comeback win against the Tigers and the walk-off hit against the Indians. I thought last year, Cabrera benefited from being in a solid hitting lineup with pitchers working to get him out the way they did the previous season, to which he had adjusted. Except for his PED years and his free agent season, this is about what Cabrera has done for his career.

LaRoche is getting off to the sort of start he got off to for the Nationals two seasons ago, when in fact he hit less than .240 for the season. Fans expected last year's LaRoche, but what he has done this season isn't atypical for him. He is hitting betting in May, though. He is vulnerable against good left-handed pitchers, which is not unusual either. When he has men on base and Garcia hitting well behind him, as has been the case more frequently in May, he seems a better hitter. LaRoche isn't doing what he did last year, and fans expect that when the team goes out and signs a free agent he do in perpetuity what he did last year.

It isn't unusual for Ramirez to start off slowly offensively, either. Flowers, though, doesn't seem to have an upside. It's as if the Braves figured out that Flowers has too many holes to be a good hitter and will never be a strong defensive catcher, similar to what the Diamondbacks figured out about Matt Davidson.

TDog
05-23-2015, 03:27 PM
Agreed on all the talk about catchers. SOMEBODY has got to be available who is better this off season. (Can't see the Sox doing anything during it barring something very unexpected.)

And regarding Swisher and Wells...adding insult to injury is the fact that as soon as they left the Sox "suddenly" they got good again and starting producing.

Lip

Swisher really wasn't very good before he came to the Sox. Watching him with the A's, I could see why the A's wanted to get rid of him and what he would and wouldn't do with the Sox. I think I posted as much shortly after the trade. His act had worn thin with the A's, and the White Sox looked at his numbers and expected him to do things he wasn't capable of doing.

Swisher didn't do well with the Yankees until he focused on hitting instead of walking and started swinging the bat instead of working the count. But he was really only a good hitter with the Yankees for one season when he was surrounded by better hitters. His best major league season was the one where he had the lowest frequency of walks. He hasn't been very good since leaving the Yankees.

David Wells, of course, simply didn't want to pitch for the Sox, and it showed.

joegraz
05-23-2015, 03:48 PM
Agreed on all the talk about catchers. SOMEBODY has got to be available who is better this off season. (Can't see the Sox doing anything during it barring something very unexpected.)

And regarding Swisher and Wells...adding insult to injury is the fact that as soon as they left the Sox "suddenly" they got good again and starting producing.

Lip

And that's been happening for years. What's the common denominator?

cards press box
05-23-2015, 06:04 PM
Man, the Sox need a better catcher than Flowers. He is just not a starting major league catcher.

Andrew C White
05-23-2015, 07:02 PM
the White Sox looked at his numbers and expected him to do things he wasn't capable of doing.

This is a key point about Swisher. The White Sox asked him to play CF and lead-off. He isn't a CF and certainly isn't a lead-off hitter. They set him to fail... and he did.

That said, the trade for him was a bad trade even before I learned what it was they were expecting of him.

DonnieDarko
05-23-2015, 07:06 PM
Agreed on all the talk about catchers. SOMEBODY has got to be available who is better this off season. (Can't see the Sox doing anything during it barring something very unexpected.)

Wieters is the best FA C next offseason. After that it's a looooooong drop in talent. Out of those available, I'm not sure who I would want over Flowers.

Dan H
05-23-2015, 08:16 PM
I am tired of Alexei and his awful starts. You can't have a guy wait until June before his does anything. Having a player like him is okay for defense if you have great hitting team. Obviously the Sox are not a great hitting team.

cards press box
05-23-2015, 08:26 PM
I am tired of Alexei and his awful starts. You can't have a guy wait until June before his does anything. Having a player like him is okay for defense if you have great hitting team. Obviously the Sox are not a great hitting team.

At 22, Tim Anderson is hitting .305 at AA with 15 stolen bases. Anderson is the heir apparent at SS. It's only a matter of time before he takes over the position.

Wedema
05-23-2015, 08:29 PM
Man, the Sox need a better catcher than Flowers. He is just not a starting major league catcher.

When Flowers falls behind a good pitcher like Perkins today and Kluber on Monday he is completely overmatched and can't even get the bat off of his shoulders.

cards press box
05-23-2015, 08:40 PM
When Flowers falls behind a good pitcher like Perkins today and Kluber on Monday he is completely overmatched and can't even get the bat off of his shoulders.

I know -- he is just a bad major league player. Don't get me wrong. It's so hard to get to the big leagues that it's hard to even be a bad big leaguer. But the Sox shouldn't kid themselves. He's a bad catcher, he can't hit and he can't throw. He should not be a starting catcher for a big league club.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2015, 09:14 PM
At 22, Tim Anderson is hitting .305 at AA with 15 stolen bases. Anderson is the heir apparent at SS. It's only a matter of time before he takes over the position.

Ramirez's deal is up in 2016. Anderson should take his place then.

Lip

Andrew C White
05-23-2015, 09:58 PM
Ramirez's deal is up in 2016. Anderson should take his place then.

Lip

Assuming Anderson is learning to properly play SS (footwork, etc) then the timing appears to be just right. 2015 at AA where he appears to be hitting well, 2016 at AAA then 2017 in Chicago.

Alexei's 2016 year is an option but an inexpensive one for someone of his quality. I fully expect the Sox to pick it up. It's on the Sox to ensure that Anderson is ready in 2017.

Tragg
05-23-2015, 10:09 PM
Agreed on all the talk about catchers. SOMEBODY has got to be available who is better this off season. (Can't see the Sox doing anything during it barring something very unexpected.)

And regarding Swisher and Wells...adding insult to injury is the fact that as soon as they left the Sox "suddenly" they got good again and starting producing.

Lip

There were catchers available last offseason at reasonable prices. Probably will be this year as well.

TDog
05-26-2015, 04:26 PM
This is a key point about Swisher. The White Sox asked him to play CF and lead-off. He isn't a CF and certainly isn't a lead-off hitter. They set him to fail... and he did.

That said, the trade for him was a bad trade even before I learned what it was they were expecting of him.

Swisher was playing center for the A's in his last season there. He replaced the injured (and never the same) Mark Kotsay. The Sox traded for him to play center, according to the post-trade press conference. Acquiring a centerfielder was an objective of the offseason, and the Sox had previously courted Torii Hunter, Aaron Rowand and Kosuke Fukudome, all of whom signed with other teams. The leadoff idea was based on his high on-base percentage.

The problem is, the Sox apparently never watched Swisher play except in the few games he played against them, which isn't that uncommon. Many GMs look at players stats without considering what it is about the player and his situation that led to those stats.

The A's stuck him in center without regard to his defense he was better in center than the other outfielders they wanted in the lineup. He walked a lot because he took so many pitches with the idea that he was working the pitcher. On the plus side, he walked a lot because he was generally hitting in front of weaker hitters. The Sox shouldn't have expected him to have the same on-base percentage leading off. He was challenged more, and by working the count, he only put himself in a hole that made it more difficult for him to hit.

The Sox could see in spring training that they could do better in center. On opening day, a Cuban the Sox signed in the offseason was starting in center because of his defense. Alexei Ramirez, however ended up at second base with Swisher in center to get Carlos Quentin into the lineup and to move Uribe over to third with Crede hurting. That, of course, was the year Orlando Cabrera was the everyday shortstop. Swisher was the everyday leadoff hitter into the first week of May when Cabrera took over and led off the rest of the season except for a few games led off by Ramirez and Dewayne Wise.

Except for Swisher, the Sox played very well that year and had a heroic run to make it to the division series. The Quentin injury hurt them, as did losing Joe Crede for most of August and September. Take away any of that or replace Swisher with Torii Hunter, and the Rays may well have not gone to the World Series. That's assuming the Sox would have signed Ramirez after signing Hunter.

That said, any deal for Nick Swisher, as I believe I expressed when the deal came down, doesn't help your team, with the possible exception of the Yankees. He had his moments with the Yankees and was even benched from a World Series game because of poor play. The Yankees was sort of like military school for him. He changed his approach to the game. Of course, after the Yankees parted ways with him, he became the same old Nick Swisher.

Andrew C White
05-26-2015, 05:44 PM
Speaking of Uribe... I see that he is available from the Dodgers. They just tried to trade him for Alberto Callaspo. He's certainly not the solution for this team but he can field 3B.

TDog
05-26-2015, 06:11 PM
Speaking of Uribe... I see that he is available from the Dodgers. They just tried to trade him for Alberto Callaspo. He's certainly not the solution for this team but he can field 3B.

If there is one problem on the 2015 White Sox that if eliminated would put the team in the thick of the divisional race, it is poor starting pitching, specifically starting pitchers giving up big innings early in games, often the first inning. It began on opening day in Samardzija's first start and very pitcher has been guilty of it. Even Sale gave up four early runs Sunday. Quicker hooks wouldn't make a difference because it happens too quickly for a reliever to be warmed up, and the starters often shut down the other team after the big inning, doing better, if not at least as well, as the relievers would do if they were yanked from the game.

Put your team at a big early deficit, and it hurts the offense, although the Sox have come back a few times this year.

No matter what you do to improve the team, it won't make a difference if the White Sox are down four, five or six runs in the first, second or third innings.

A. Cavatica
05-26-2015, 08:05 PM
Speaking of Uribe... I see that he is available from the Dodgers. They just tried to trade him for Alberto Callaspo. He's certainly not the solution for this team but he can field 3B.

He's an alumnus who has some power, strikes out a ton, and is paid for past achievement.

He's perfect!

A. Cavatica
05-26-2015, 08:08 PM
Catchers at Charlotte:

Kevan Smith (88 AB) - .273/.369/.398
George Kottaras (31 AB) - .323/.511/.516

Better than Soto? Better than Flowers?