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View Full Version : *Official* 4/15 Dumb Smarts Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
04-15-2015, 02:11 PM
What was that? Not a sign of a good Major League club.

amsteel
04-15-2015, 02:14 PM
You know how the Royals last year were a mediocre team that was fundamentally sound enough to live on the fringes and squeak by in games they shouldn't have?

The Sox are the 2015 version of that but with poor enough fundamentals to let games like this slip away.

LoveYourSuit
04-15-2015, 02:15 PM
Really worried about Eaton. There is no track record with him. He has been beyond awful on every phase.

Killing the team from the top of the order.

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 02:15 PM
This team is talented, but wildly incompetent. The talent will carry them to wins, but on a day to day basis, that stupidity is going to be the story.

guillensdisciple
04-15-2015, 02:16 PM
Abreu has looked off so far this year. And yes, we still suck at the stuff professionals should not suck at.

JB98
04-15-2015, 02:17 PM
I don't know if it's possible for a major league player to have a worse AB than the one Eaton had in the ninth inning. Ridiculous on multiple levels.

First of all, I don't believe in bunting in that situation. I think it's OK to play for the tie at home, but on the road, you play to take the lead.

And after those first two horrible bunt attempts by Eaton, you have to take the bunt off with two strikes. When I saw he was still bunting with two strikes, I just knew he would strike out bunting foul. As we all saw, that's exactly what happened.

That was a free out for a relief pitcher who looked like he was ready to give up the lead.

Just a very poor performance by the White Sox. No clutch hitting, lousy defense, bad execution, subpar starting pitching. Really, the bullpen was the only part of the team that did well today.

Shoeless Joe
04-15-2015, 02:17 PM
Bad, bad game. Robin with some rough decisions. On to Detroit.

guillensdisciple
04-15-2015, 02:17 PM
Really worried about Eaton. There is no track record with him. He has been beyond awful on every phase.

Killing the team from the top of the order.

Yes. This. I have had that sinking feeling that he may sucK. Tha would set us back a little.

LoveYourSuit
04-15-2015, 02:17 PM
Time to tune in to Rongey so he convinces me of Danks imaginary quality start.

Flight #24
04-15-2015, 02:20 PM
Dear 2015 Sox:
http://www.rottenecards.com/ecards/Rottenecards_60441079_2z5dmy4p5w.png

thomas35forever
04-15-2015, 02:21 PM
This team is talented, but wildly incompetent.
And that's why some change in leadership is needed. I really don't care what. Just something to make the mental abilities of this club catch up to the talent.

amsteel
04-15-2015, 02:21 PM
No unnecessary outs on the basepaths today! PROGRESS

Pitcher wins/losses aren't the best metric, but now 0-3 in games Noesi/Danks have started.

Carneyman14
04-15-2015, 02:23 PM
Giving up 4 runs we should win with our offense (Potential) most of the time. Danks only gave up 3ER. I will take that every time out. 14 Strikeouts and Melky and Eaton slumping as well as mental and physical errors are killing us right now and have been for awhile now.

smac38
04-15-2015, 02:27 PM
Time to tune in to Rongey so he convinces me of Danks imaginary quality start.

I can't listen to him. His "company man" shtick is a joke and embarrassing. Any caller who criticizes Robin is a moron, and anyone who disagrees with him is hung up on. He fits right in at the Score.

On a side note, plate discipline as a team has been a joke to this point. LaRoche had 3 walks today, and I think that almost doubled the team total for the season. Not to mention they swing at everything.

SoxSpeed22
04-15-2015, 02:29 PM
All of our weaknesses wrapped up in a neat little package. I was worried about this team's defense and back of the rotation and it showed today.
I think Eaton needs a day off to slow things down for him, he looks like he's trying to force things out there.

joegraz
04-15-2015, 02:31 PM
And that's why some change in leadership is needed. I really don't care what. Just something to make the mental abilities of this club catch up to the talent.

Cubs (hate by the way) did it right: Hire a couple of stiffs as placeholders, then hire a real manager once the team is ready to contend.

We got the first part right. Only our stiff isn't going anywhere.

Lip Man 1
04-15-2015, 02:36 PM
Just a very poor performance by the White Sox. No clutch hitting, lousy defense, bad execution, subpar starting pitching. Really, the bullpen was the only part of the team that did well today.

Unfortunately we've seen this over and over again for a while now. I don't know what these guys do in spring training and why assuming they do work at these things, it doesn't translate into games that matter.

Very frustrating.

And the top of the order, the top four guys have simply got to start hitting.

Paging Mr. Rodon, your flight is ready to the big leagues.

Lip

Irishsox1
04-15-2015, 02:37 PM
This team has enough talent to be an above .500 team but they will be right around .500 all year.

Soxman219
04-15-2015, 02:43 PM
I'm very worried about Eaton right now.

Standing Ovation
04-15-2015, 02:44 PM
I would love to know who called for Eaton to bunt. The two fastest guys on the team just walked and HBP w/ our third fastest guy at the plate and no outs. And we try to bunt? Makes no sense. Even if it was successful, they walk Melky and try to get Abreu to bounce into DP. I'm not watching this **** all year long.

hoosiersoxfan
04-15-2015, 02:44 PM
I'm watching Inside Look with Adam Eaton that was filmed this spring now and Eaton just said "bunting is the hardest and easiest thing in baseball". Really ironic after what just happened less than an hour ago.

smac38
04-15-2015, 02:48 PM
I would love to know who called for Eaton to bunt. The two fastest guys on the team just walked and HBP w/ our third fastest guy at the plate and no outs. And we try to bunt? Makes no sense. Even if it was successful, they walk Melky and try to get Abreu to bounce into DP. I'm not watching this **** all year long.

The stupid trickles from the top down

Dan Hayes ‏@CSNHayes 20m20 minutes ago
Adam Eaton was asked to bunt w/ 2 strikes. Ventura wanted Cabrera, Abreu up with men on 2nd and 3rd. Said needs to get bunt down.

ChiSoxGal85
04-15-2015, 02:54 PM
Abreu appears to be pressing, as is Eaton.

I've pretty much written off the Danks starts anyways, but bummer of a loss. Too bad so much stupid happened in the 9th.

Standing Ovation
04-15-2015, 03:06 PM
The stupid trickles from the top down

Dan Hayes ‏@CSNHayes 20m20 minutes ago
Adam Eaton was asked to bunt w/ 2 strikes. Ventura wanted Cabrera, Abreu up with men on 2nd and 3rd. Said needs to get bunt down.

Unreal. There's no way Francona gives both Melky and Abreu shots at driving in those runs.

Allen couldn't find the zone. No excuses for Eaton, but it sure is hard to bunt when the pitcher is wild. Ventura can take his bacon on a stick and go home.

aryzner
04-15-2015, 03:22 PM
Eaton has a track record of success all the way back in his minor league days. I am not currently too concerned about him. I think he'll get it together at some point, but hopefully that "some point" is in the not-too-distant future.

TomBradley72
04-15-2015, 03:24 PM
Eaton is melting down in front of our eyes- didn't understand the logic of the long term contract after only one solid (but injury plagued) season.

Ventura is an idiot for calling for the bunt in that situation- give up an out in exchange for one shot by Melky, an intentional walk to Abreu and a shot by LaRoche? Weak.

Danks was OK today- I'm looking forward to Rodon- but that was an OK start.

Noneck
04-15-2015, 03:26 PM
Im not sure if bunting was the way to go in the 9th but what a miserable attempt to do so by Eaton. Amazing that a leadoff slap hitter cant lay down a sacrifice bunt. Something is wrong in basic fundamentals, I know Eaton wasnt groomed in the Sox system so I cant blame them this time.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2015, 03:35 PM
Im not sure if bunting was the way to go in the 9th but what a miserable attempt to do so by Eaton. Amazing that a leadoff slap hitter cant lay down a sacrifice bunt. Something is wrong in basic fundamentals, I know Eaton wasnt groomed in the Sox system so I cant blame them this time.

There is some baseball IQ crippling component to the White Sox uniform. A krypton like substance woven into the uni.

Harry Chappas
04-15-2015, 03:36 PM
How is it even possible to assemble a team full of low baseball IQs? Some of the stuff is just...little league. Making mental errors in a fast-paced sport like football or basketball, I get. But baseball? You get on first and your job is basically to not get picked off. Or if there are 2 outs, you don't try to stretch a double into a triple and make the last out of the inning.

I hate when managers become whipping boys for the crap play of their team, but I do think that this team has sort of adopted Robin's laid back attitude. There's no sense of urgency, cohesion, or focus.

It's a damn shame because while I'm not sure this team is ready to compete for a division title, I think they could at least make it interesting, but that opportunity is being wasted with a manager that is in way over his head.

Hitmen77
04-15-2015, 03:38 PM
Danks hasn't been great in his 2 starts, but he wasn't the main culprit in each of those losses. Lack of offense and awful fundamentals were bigger problems.

Regardless of who is pitching, you're not going to win many games by scoring 1 or 2 runs and making constant blunders throughout the game.

QReedSale88
04-15-2015, 03:50 PM
Cubs (hate by the way) did it right: Hire a couple of stiffs as placeholders, then hire a real manager once the team is ready to contend.

We got the first part right. Only our stiff isn't going anywhere.

One would think that the moment Francona was available we would have canned the walking dead and upgraded. There is no way Fracona passes up the Sox job for Cleveland. I may be the only one here that thinks this, but I would love to have Ozzie back

LoveYourSuit
04-15-2015, 03:58 PM
Eaton has a track record of success all the way back in his minor league days. I am not currently too concerned about him. I think he'll get it together at some point, but hopefully that "some point" is in the not-too-distant future.

Track record for me is ML success.

Beckham had a real good track record pre MLB. He even had one solid season with the Sox but nothing beyond that.

There are way too many unknowns on this team including Eaton. With all the slow starts, it doesn't help alleviate the angst.

doublem23
04-15-2015, 03:59 PM
Eaton has a track record of success all the way back in his minor league days. I am not currently too concerned about him. I think he'll get it together at some point, but hopefully that "some point" is in the not-too-distant future.

I agree. It's one week into the season, here, guys. Everyone on this team is going to have a bad week somewhere along the way. It just blows when you're week is Week #1

Noneck
04-15-2015, 03:59 PM
I may be the only one here that thinks this, but I would love to have Ozzie back


Never will happen, he torched too many bridges with the upper echelon.

QReedSale88
04-15-2015, 04:01 PM
Never will happen, he torched too many bridges with the upper echelon.
Yeah I know, but boy would he be perfect for this team.

doublem23
04-15-2015, 04:02 PM
Track record for me is ML success.

Beckham had a real good track record pre MLB. He even had one solid season with the Sox but nothing beyond that.

There are way too many unknowns on this team including Eaton. With all the slow starts, it doesn't help alleviate the angst.

That's really ridiculous, Eaton's MiLB record is over 1,500 plate appearances over 4 seasons. Beckham's was less than 300 in less than 1 full season.

doublem23
04-15-2015, 04:02 PM
Yeah I know, but boy would he be perfect for this team.

Probably not

DrCrawdad
04-15-2015, 04:06 PM
One would think that the moment Francona was available we would have canned the walking dead and upgraded. There is no way Fracona passes up the Sox job for Cleveland. I may be the only one here that thinks this, but I would love to have Ozzie back

I'm with you on Ozzie

Lip Man 1
04-15-2015, 04:13 PM
You wonder if Adam and Melky are off to very slow starts because they are trying to justify their new contracts?

It's happened before, Julio Cruz immediately comes to mind.

Lip

TomBradley72
04-15-2015, 04:20 PM
One would think that the moment Francona was available we would have canned the walking dead and upgraded. There is no way Fracona passes up the Sox job for Cleveland. I may be the only one here that thinks this, but I would love to have Ozzie back

My knee jerk reaction was "no way"- but you might me right- maybe he's our version of Billy Martin. :cool:

Wedema
04-15-2015, 04:29 PM
My knee jerk reaction was "no way"- but you might me right- maybe he's our version of Billy Martin. :cool:


Ozzie was on the field on Opening Day talking with Kenny.......

http://chicago.suntimes.com/baseball/7/71/516378/relieved-ozzie-guillen-meeting-ken-williams-needed

tstrike2000
04-15-2015, 04:31 PM
Between poor defense, poor fundamentals, and questionable decisions, I fear we'll be pissing too many crucial games away.

slavko
04-15-2015, 04:44 PM
I'm seeing a few of us here who think the idea of getting back together with your ex-wife is a good idea. :D:

As far as the 9th inning strategy goes, letting Eaton hit is the way to go if Eaton isn't hitting the price of a McDouble. Considering that, the sacrifice becomes more logical. I'm still not convinced.

Now the other 9th inning logic. If he gets the bunt down, which baseball axiom does Francona violate, "Don't put the winning run on base," or "Don't let the opponent's best player beat you?" I think the pitch to Melky, walk Abreu route is the one.

thomas35forever
04-15-2015, 04:45 PM
TBGR (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4587)

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 04:50 PM
I can't believe there are people clamoring to get Ozzie back. It's like people have forgotten how awful he was. Mack, Erstad, Swisher, Griffey and Pods in CF, bringing Kotsay back to DH because he's a "good defender", countless bullpen blunders because of a fanatical obsession with lefty/righty matchups, and I'm probably forgetting a whole bunch of stuff, too.

TDog
04-15-2015, 04:57 PM
I don't know if it's possible for a major league player to have a worse AB than the one Eaton had in the ninth inning. Ridiculous on multiple levels.

First of all, I don't believe in bunting in that situation. I think it's OK to play for the tie at home, but on the road, you play to take the lead.

And after those first two horrible bunt attempts by Eaton, you have to take the bunt off with two strikes. When I saw he was still bunting with two strikes, I just knew he would strike out bunting foul. As we all saw, that's exactly what happened.

That was a free out for a relief pitcher who looked like he was ready to give up the lead.

Just a very poor performance by the White Sox. No clutch hitting, lousy defense, bad execution, subpar starting pitching. Really, the bullpen was the only part of the team that did well today.

I don't know that the bunt was on from the bench with Eaton with two strikes. The fact that he was bunting could well have been his belief that with the infield not focusing on the bunt with two strikes, he had a his best chance of reaching base. I think the fact that Eaton was sacrificing in the first place is a reflection on how he is struggling at the plate, as if bunting is your best chance in that situation. The problem was his failure to execute. This is a hitter who has bunted for hits. Asking him to sacrifice should take some of the pressure off.

If he gets the bunt down, in any of his three attempts, the worst you are going to have is Johnson and Eaton on first and second with one out and Cabrera and Abreu coming up. It's a conservative game, but once you get two on at the bottom of the order, I have no problem with managing to get Abreu up with two on down 4-2 in the ninth.

The problem was the the Sox didn't execute.

For a pitcher who gave up four runs in five innings, Danks didn't pitch badly. The run inning where the Indians sacrificed twice, having had that opportunity in a scoreless game, was of course, unearned. The last run proved big, coming after a two-out stolen base on a pickoff attempt. The difference proved the inning with the two doubles.

But the key to the game was the Sox not scoring with the bases loaded and one out. A couple of timely hits and Danks wouldn't have pitched badly at all. As bady as the Sox played today, up to bat and in the field, on the road in Cleveland with Danks starting, they had their big hitter up in the ninth with the tying run on base. Part of that was the bullpen keeping it close, despite an uncharacteristic error by a solid outfielder.

A tough loss certainly.

Bobby Thigpen
04-15-2015, 05:02 PM
I may be the only one here that thinks this, but I would love to have Ozzie back
Aaaaand...

This just went from ridiculous to beyond stupid. Because those Ozzie teams never did anything stupid did they?

Edit- If I read the word "fire" anywhere, I may puke.

captain54
04-15-2015, 05:18 PM
Everyone on this team is going to have a bad week somewhere along the way.

I wholeheartedly disagree.. the rebuilding has addressed some issues, (rejoicing at the improved bullpen) but not all. This team is being exposed for what it is.. Still defensively weak/mediocre and, for whatever reason, some bad fundamental baseball that has lingered from the 2013/2014 seasons...

QReedSale88
04-15-2015, 05:18 PM
Aaaaand...

This just went from ridiculous to beyond stupid. Because those Ozzie teams never did anything stupid did they?

Good thing I never said I disliked Robin because the teams he's managed did something stupid. My post history would be 30+ pages long if I did. My dislike for Robin is 10% managing and 90% personality. Whether he makes a mistake or not I don't believe he can manage this team to any postseason success. The guy has no fire, he's the ****ing walking dead. We may get a sign of life from him once or twice a year when he berates an umpire but that's about it. My position is simple, I don't want Mr. Rogers managing the Sox.

infohawk
04-15-2015, 05:26 PM
Didn't get to see the game, just a few of the posts. So how'd we do?:tongue:

RCWHITESOX
04-15-2015, 05:27 PM
I don't know that the bunt was on from the bench with Eaton with two strikes. The fact that he was bunting could well have been his belief that with the infield not focusing on the bunt with two strikes, he had a his best chance of reaching base. I think the fact that Eaton was sacrificing in the first place is a reflection on how he is struggling at the plate, as if bunting is your best chance in that situation. The problem was his failure to execute. This is a hitter who has bunted for hits. Asking him to sacrifice should take some of the pressure off.

If he gets the bunt down, in any of his three attempts, the worst you are going to have is Johnson and Eaton on first and second with one out and Cabrera and Abreu coming up. It's a conservative game, but once you get two on at the bottom of the order, I have no problem with managing to get Abreu up with two on down 4-2 in the ninth.

The problem was the the Sox didn't execute.

For a pitcher who gave up four runs in five innings, Danks didn't pitch badly. The run inning where the Indians sacrificed twice, having had that opportunity in a scoreless game, was of course, unearned. The last run proved big, coming after a two-out stolen base on a pickoff attempt. The difference proved the inning with the two doubles.

But the key to the game was the Sox not scoring with the bases loaded and one out. A couple of timely hits and Danks wouldn't have pitched badly at all. As bady as the Sox played today, up to bat and in the field, on the road in Cleveland with Danks starting, they had their big hitter up in the ninth with the tying run on base. Part of that was the bullpen keeping it close, despite an uncharacteristic error by a solid outfielder.

A tough loss certainly.

I could not agree more. I also believe Ramirez and Gillespie were just as guilty today, with poor decisions with the glove as well as the bat. Definitely not happy with this game but hope for better things to come.

captain54
04-15-2015, 05:33 PM
Whether he makes a mistake or not I don't believe he can manage this team to any postseason success. .

My big gripe with Robin and the Sox hierarchy is the seemingly lack of accountability for the choke job the Sox pulled off down the stretch in 2012 when the division there for the taking.. Blame it on the players…? Blame it on Robin..? impossible to ascertain.. Robin is fan friendly and uncontroversial, a Sox legend, and a very good player in his day.. Those qualities are great for a Jerry Reinsdorf owned baseball franchise.. But as a skipper who can take this team to the promised land? That choke job was the last time the Sox have come anywhere near remotely sniffing the playoffs and that was more that 2 yrs ago, now into the 3rd year..

Say what you want about Ozzie, and I certainly don't have fond memories of that train wreck of the last few months of 2011, but he did pull that team together down the stretch when they almost blew a 15 game lead in 05, enroute to possibly one of the biggest choke jobs in history

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 05:36 PM
Good thing I never said I disliked Robin because the teams he's managed did something stupid. My post history would be 30+ pages long if I did. My dislike for Robin is 10% managing and 90% personality. Whether he makes a mistake or not I don't believe he can manage this team to any postseason success. The guy has no fire, he's the ****ing walking dead. We may get a sign of life from him once or twice a year when he berates an umpire but that's about it. My position is simple, I don't want Mr. Rogers managing the Sox.

I'll take a guy who is practically asleep at the wheel as far as "fire" goes, but makes good baseball decisions, over a guy who screams and kicks dirt all the time, but can't manage his way out of a paper bag 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. "Passion", "fire" "grit" and "TWTW" are such foolish things to value in a player or coach over actual ability.

Lip Man 1
04-15-2015, 05:38 PM
To me this quote makes it sound like it was Robin's call, but I can't say that with 100% assurance:

"You expect him to get that down. He has done it with two strikes. He's comfortable doing it. You just have to get it over to the third baseman and move everybody up." — Robin Ventura on Eaton's strikeout / bunting.

Lip

Lip Man 1
04-15-2015, 05:45 PM
FYI...Sun-Times game recap story (Tribune apparently doesn't do them anymore) states that the decision to have Eaton bunt with two strikes was Ventura's.

Lip

QReedSale88
04-15-2015, 05:46 PM
My big gripe with Robin and the Sox hierarchy is the seemingly lack of accountability for the choke job the Sox pulled off down the stretch in 2012 when the division there for the taking.. Blame it on the players…? Blame it on Robin..? impossible to ascertain.. Robin is fan friendly and uncontroversial, a Sox legend, and a very good player in his day.. Those qualities are great for a Jerry Reinsdorf owned baseball franchise.. But as a skipper who can take this team to the promised land? That choke job was the last time the Sox have come anywhere near remotely sniffing the playoffs and that was more that 2 yrs ago, now into the 3rd year..

Say what you want about Ozzie, and I certainly don't have fond memories of that train wreck of the last few months of 2011, but he did pull that team together down the stretch when they almost blew a 15 game lead in 05, enroute to possibly one of the biggest choke jobs in history

This is my #1 reason for my position on Robin. I just can't get that stretch out of my head.

I'll take a guy who is practically asleep at the wheel as far as "fire" goes, but makes good baseball decisions over a guy who screams and kicks dirt all the time, but can't manage his way out of a paper bag 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. "Passion", "fire" "grit" and "TWTW" are such foolish things to value in a player or coach over actual ability.

I should have been more clear with my point. It doesn't even have to be Ozzie or someone like him, I just want someone a step above Robin when it comes to personality. I don't hate the guy, his nonchalant personality just rubs me the wrong way.

QReedSale88
04-15-2015, 05:49 PM
I'll take a guy who is practically asleep at the wheel as far as "fire" goes, but makes good baseball decisions, over a guy who screams and kicks dirt all the time, but can't manage his way out of a paper bag 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. "Passion", "fire" "grit" and "TWTW" are such foolish things to value in a player or coach over actual ability.

Robin hasn't made too many good baseball decisions in his tenure.

BainesHOF
04-15-2015, 05:57 PM
I listened to the ninth inning in my car. It left me dumbfounded. How do you think it's a good idea to bunt to play for the tie on the road, especially with the top of the order up? I was hoping the team would be good enough to overcome Ventura, but it's becoming quickly apparent that it's not. On top of it, he had Eaton bunt with two strikes?!

Eaton has not walked in 34 at-bats. He's a bad baserunner. He's a bad bunter. Brutal for a leadoff man. As I posted a couple days ago, he's killing the team and hurting Abreu, who has been reduced to chasing bad pitches because he's not receiving many good pitches to hit.

Sick of seeing Danks on the mound. Bring up Rodon and send Danks to long relief where he belongs. Now.

Three series into the season and the Sox haven't had a good series yet. (Taking two of three from a horrible Minnesota club at home is not a good series.) It's not going to matter how well Sale, Samardzija, Quintana and the bullpen pitch if the amateur hour elsewhere is allowed to continue.

LoveYourSuit
04-15-2015, 06:00 PM
That's really ridiculous, Eaton's MiLB record is over 1,500 plate appearances over 4 seasons. Beckham's was less than 300 in less than 1 full season.

You missed the point.

MiLB is not Major League Baseball.

I only count track record for people that have had success at this level. I don't care what you did in the minors nor what you did in college (Beckham).

Eaton is still an unknown at the ML level.

Domeshot17
04-15-2015, 06:15 PM
Everyone needs to chill out. We are not going to win every game, I promise you that.

We had a BAD match up today, Danks vs. a really good young arm in Bauer.

Just keep winning 2 of 3, and we will be ok.

Eventually Danks or Noesi is going to the pen when Rodon gets called up.

Eventually the good hitters on the Sox will start hitting, Eaton, Melky are not going to hit .100 all year. Abreu isn't going to hit .220 all year. The team is pressing a little.

I find it absolutely comedic that people want Ozzie back because the Sox lack fundamentals, can't bunt, and play bad defense. Those were staples of the Ozzie Guillen management system. This is the same Ozzie Guillen who couldn't even get an all-star team in Miami to play .500 ball.

Just so people are aware, incase they aren't, your manager is not required to be a former player from your team!

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 06:20 PM
This is my #1 reason for my position on Robin. I just can't get that stretch out of my head.



I should have been more clear with my point. It doesn't even have to be Ozzie or someone like him, I just want someone a step above Robin when it comes to personality. I don't hate the guy, his nonchalant personality just rubs me the wrong way.

Robin hasn't made too many good baseball decisions in his tenure.

I should clarify, myself. I'm not the biggest Ventura fan around here, either. I don't have my torch and pitchfork out, but I know where they are in the shed, if you catch my drift. But exactly none of that has anything to do with personality. I want a manager who puts the team in a position to win, and does it consistently. Robin doesn't appear to be that guy, but Ozzie damn sure isn't that guy, either.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 06:41 PM
Sick of seeing Danks on the mound.

Kenny Williams. Say what you want, it was Buehrle or Danks, and Williams was wrong.

SoxSpeed22
04-15-2015, 06:56 PM
I understand the logic of bunting, because getting them over would've meant second and third, one out and a base hit would've tied the game. With the way Eaton was hitting, I had no faith in him getting a hit.
I don't think Ventura is a bad manager, but I have zero conviction that we can win a world series with him managing.

ricker182
04-15-2015, 06:59 PM
Kenny Williams. Say what you want, it was Buehrle or Danks, and Williams was wrong.

Yeah, but you can't predict injuries. It happens.
Just a stroke of bad luck for us.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 07:17 PM
Yeah, but you can't predict injuries. It happens.
Just a stroke of bad luck for us.

A no hitter, a perfect game, and the ace of a staff that won a Series with a delivery that could (easily) allow him to be durable until he's 40. 29 other orgs would ride that horse until he fell down on the mound. Not Williams.

asindc
04-15-2015, 07:23 PM
Kenny Williams. Say what you want, it was Buehrle or Danks, and Williams was wrong.

To be precise, JR. was wrong.

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 07:23 PM
A no hitter, a perfect game, and the ace of a staff that won a Series with a delivery that could (easily) allow him to be durable until he's 40. 29 other orgs would ride that horse until he fell down on the mound. Not Williams.

One guy was 32, exiting the prime of his career, and the other was 25, and appeared to be a top of the rotation starter in the making. Hindsight is always 20/20.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 07:30 PM
One guy was 32, exiting the prime of his career, and the other was 25, and appeared to be a top of the rotation starter in the making. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Hindsight hell. How about Buehrle as a #4 on this staff? Danks was never approching what Buehrle already had accomplished even when he was healthy. This isn't an argument.

Bobby Thigpen
04-15-2015, 08:44 PM
I would wager every executive in baseball takes Danks over Buehrle in that situation. Factoring in age, salary, stuff and the fact that Buehrle wouldn't stop talking about how he was only pitching a couple more years and then going home to Missouri.

This is getting more ridiculous than a Bears postgame show.

Vernam
04-15-2015, 08:57 PM
This thread makes me very glad I fast-forwarded through the game tonight to watch the Hawks in real time.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 09:10 PM
I would wager every executive in baseball takes Danks over Buehrle in that situation. Factoring in age, salary, stuff and the fact that Buehrle wouldn't stop talking about how he was only pitching a couple more years and then going home to Missouri.

"Here's your two years at $12+M a year for what you've done for us."

NO exec with a brain in baseball would argue that.

Bobby Thigpen
04-15-2015, 09:12 PM
"Here's your two years at $12+M a year for what you've done for us."

NO exec with a brain in baseball would argue that.
It must be awesome to be able to see the future.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 09:19 PM
It must be awesome to be able to see the future.

It's more awesome to see what's in front of your face.

doublem23
04-15-2015, 09:25 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree.. the rebuilding has addressed some issues, (rejoicing at the improved bullpen) but not all. This team is being exposed for what it is.. Still defensively weak/mediocre and, for whatever reason, some bad fundamental baseball that has lingered from the 2013/2014 seasons...

So your thesis is that apparently, nobody on any of the other 29 teams in the league has a **** week?

I'm not necessarily talking about the mistakes we've seen, but come on, people, Adam Eaton's not going to hit .140 the whole ****ing year. Lighten up, Francis.

Brian26
04-15-2015, 09:26 PM
Just ran through the game on DVR and haven't read any other comments here. The Sox might want to consider sending Micah Johnson back down to Charlotte to learn how to play defense. I had read that he needed some work, but I didn't realize how bad he looks on even routine plays. He can't field throws from the catcher on stolen bases. He has no clue on how to apply a swipe tag. He can't pick up a ball bare-handed. The Indians were eating him alive today. The Abreu throw on the pickoff was totally catchable. Anyone laying a bunt down on the right side is going to own him. He absolutely sticks out like a sore thumb.

doublem23
04-15-2015, 09:27 PM
"Here's your two years at $12+M a year for what you've done for us."

NO exec with a brain in baseball would argue that.

Except that Buehrle got 4 years at nearly $15 million per season

Brian26
04-15-2015, 09:33 PM
Sick of seeing Danks on the mound. Bring up Rodon and send Danks to long relief where he belongs. Now.

Danks actually wasn't that bad on the mound today. I'd avocate for Rodon in the starting rotation perhaps to solve Noesi though.

Boondock Saint
04-15-2015, 09:44 PM
Except that Buehrle got 4 years at nearly $15 million per season

Exactly. You can't convincingly make an argument that the Sox were gonna bring back Buehrle to continue his role as ace of our pitching staff and get him to take a 20% pay cut.

TDog
04-15-2015, 10:00 PM
That's really ridiculous, Eaton's MiLB record is over 1,500 plate appearances over 4 seasons. Beckham's was less than 300 in less than 1 full season.

Beckham, a Golden Spikes finalist, never looked as good in college as Eaton did professionally in Reno. It's not even close.

I'm disappointed Eaton is getting off to such a slow start. I'm not worried about him.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2015, 10:05 PM
White Sox losses make me angry.

Losses + Dumb baseball are a toxic mix for me.

rpmorri
04-15-2015, 10:27 PM
Except that Buehrle got 4 years at nearly $15 million per season

4 years at $15M vs 4 years at $12 for a pitcher that hadn't done 1/3 of what Buehrle had done. Sorry, I'd pay performance.

slavko
04-15-2015, 11:06 PM
To be precise, JR. was wrong.

This is true. When MB told JR what he had been offered hoping for a match, he was told to take the money.

MISoxfan
04-15-2015, 11:31 PM
This was probably mentioned on the broadcast, but I couldn't watch today. I was just looking at B-R and noticed John Danks turned 30 today.

kittle42
04-15-2015, 11:58 PM
4 years at $15M vs 4 years at $12 for a pitcher that hadn't done 1/3 of what Buehrle had done. Sorry, I'd pay performance.

The team was looking toward the future. It was the right move at the time, though I don't know if every other GM would have done it, as one poster stated. I think it was the better percentage move based on the facts at the time.

MISoxfan
04-16-2015, 12:20 AM
A lot of people wanted to sign Buehrle over Danks even when it happened. I was in that camp, but I certainly didn't expect it to be this lopsided.

tstrike2000
04-16-2015, 12:34 AM
Just ran through the game on DVR and haven't read any other comments here. The Sox might want to consider sending Micah Johnson back down to Charlotte to learn how to play defense. I had read that he needed some work, but I didn't realize how bad he looks on even routine plays. He can't field throws from the catcher on stolen bases. He has no clue on how to apply a swipe tag. He can't pick up a ball bare-handed. The Indians were eating him alive today. The Abreu throw on the pickoff was totally catchable. Anyone laying a bunt down on the right side is going to own him. He absolutely sticks out like a sore thumb.

He's not an MLB second baseman, period. I'm glad he had a nice spring, has some upside, and has speed, but he hurts us defensively and on the base paths.

JB98
04-16-2015, 01:18 AM
Everyone needs to chill out. We are not going to win every game, I promise you that.

We had a BAD match up today, Danks vs. a really good young arm in Bauer.

Just keep winning 2 of 3, and we will be ok.

Eventually Danks or Noesi is going to the pen when Rodon gets called up.

Eventually the good hitters on the Sox will start hitting, Eaton, Melky are not going to hit .100 all year. Abreu isn't going to hit .220 all year. The team is pressing a little.

I find it absolutely comedic that people want Ozzie back because the Sox lack fundamentals, can't bunt, and play bad defense. Those were staples of the Ozzie Guillen management system. This is the same Ozzie Guillen who couldn't even get an all-star team in Miami to play .500 ball.

Just so people are aware, incase they aren't, your manager is not required to be a former player from your team!

You're not wrong, but it's just hard to pin the loss on that when neither Bauer's performance nor Danks' performance was what stood out about the game.

Bauer gave up two runs in six innings and should have given up more. The Sox had him on the ropes in the fourth inning, but Gillaspie and Soto were up there waving at pitches that were well out of the zone. Both essentially struck themselves out with horrible plate discipline. And Shuck popped out weakly with the bases loaded and one out.

Danks gave up four, but two of those runs were directly attributable to horrible infield defense. He wasn't particularly good, but it wasn't like he got shelled and gave the team no chance.

This was a winnable game regardless of how one feels about the pitching matchup. The Sox kicked it away with miserable execution both offensively and defensively. I'm frustrated with the loss, and I don't blame others who are frustrated.

I do agree 100 percent that calls for Guillen to return are preposterous.

Mohoney
04-16-2015, 01:22 AM
Danks was never approching what Buehrle already had accomplished even when he was healthy.

This is not accurate.

WAR values for Mark Buehrle's first six seasons:

0.6 (only 51 IP, though)
5.9
5.0
2.5
4.2
4.8

WAR values for John Danks' first five seasons:

1.1
6.4
5.0
5.5
1.9

FIP values for Mark Buehrle's first six seasons:

4.24
4.08
4.00
4.10
4.17
3.42

FIP values for John Danks' first five seasons:

5.54
3.44
4.59
3.70
3.82

Before he got hurt, John Danks was indeed well on his way to approaching something similar to Mark Buehrle's career trajectory. Was Buehrle a superior pitcher to John Danks at the time their contracts expired? Of course he was. Was Buehrle a better bet to remain a superior pitcher to John Danks going forward? That is much more debatable.

TomBradley72
04-16-2015, 07:23 AM
He's not an MLB second baseman, period. I'm glad he had a nice spring, has some upside, and has speed, but he hurts us defensively and on the base paths.

I want Sanchez (off to a .368 start at Charlotte)- this team desperately needs someone who can play defense and can execute some of the fundamentals- more than we need extra stolen bases- but 85% of my WSI compatriots want the stolen bases.

TomParrish79
04-16-2015, 09:06 AM
We'll be fine

TheVulture
04-16-2015, 10:58 AM
The team was looking toward the future. It was the right move at the time, though I don't know if every other GM would have done it, as one poster stated. I think it was the better percentage move based on the facts at the time.

I still disagree that it was the right move. They could have signed Buehrle for slightly more than Danks, and turned around and got some very nice pieces for Danks at the time. Team would have been way better off resigning Buehrle.

guillensdisciple
04-16-2015, 11:45 AM
Slight deviation, but I feel like we are having a lot more off days to start the season. I am used to the off day after opening day but we have gotten one after every Sunday and once in the middle of the week. Would be nice to get some more games in. Is this just me, or is this a bit abnormal for a baseball season?

GoSox2K3
04-16-2015, 12:07 PM
You're not wrong, but it's just hard to pin the loss on that when neither Bauer's performance nor Danks' performance was what stood out about the game.

Bauer gave up two runs in six innings and should have given up more. The Sox had him on the ropes in the fourth inning, but Gillaspie and Soto were up there waving at pitches that were well out of the zone. Both essentially struck themselves out with horrible plate discipline. And Shuck popped out weakly with the bases loaded and one out.

Danks gave up four, but two of those runs were directly attributable to horrible infield defense. He wasn't particularly good, but it wasn't like he got shelled and gave the team no chance.

This was a winnable game regardless of how one feels about the pitching matchup. The Sox kicked it away with miserable execution both offensively and defensively. I'm frustrated with the loss, and I don't blame others who are frustrated.


Not that I think Danks is a great pitcher, but anyone who thinks he's been one of our biggest problems so far this season hasn't been paying close attention to the games.

In the two Danks starts, the Sox lost 4-1 and 4-2 respectively. Poor offense, lack of clutch hitting, lousy defense, and sheer stupidity on the basepaths are at issue here. Would people have been happier if Rodon were rushed up to the majors to lose those games by say 2-1 and 3-2?

Until the Sox stop pissing away games by sheer stupidity, I'm not going to worry about Danks costing us a playoff spot. The problem is, I don't think it's nearly has simply as the Sox flipping a "stupid switch" to off and suddenly playing better. I think this is a systemic problem in the organization. We have a manager that continues to look hopelessly under qualified in terms of strategy and leadership and, after failing to refine the fundamentals part of their game in spring training, I don't see them suddenly fixing these issues any time soon.

The lousy play looks worse this year because, for the first time in several seasons, the team actually has a good amount of talent. 10 years after they were touting "smart ball" on the way to the World Series, the Sox are stuck playing "stupid ball". Is anyone in the organization accountable for this mess? They already "fired the players" and brought in a decent amount of talent. Seems like I've been hearing Sox management saying "we need to play smarter" since mid-2006, yet our fundamentals this year look to be as bad as ever.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2015, 12:14 PM
GoSox2K3:

Extremely well thought out post.

Lip

JB98
04-16-2015, 12:26 PM
I want Sanchez (off to a .368 start at Charlotte)- this team desperately needs someone who can play defense and can execute some of the fundamentals- more than we need extra stolen bases- but 85% of my WSI compatriots want the stolen bases.

Count me among that "dumb mother****ing 15 percent," as Lee Elia might say, that wants Sanchez here. Johnson isn't giving the Sox any stolen bases. Frankly, I'm not sure what the hell he's doing out there.

To me, Sanchez is the more polished player. If this season really is about winning now, and it should be, Sanchez needs to be the 2B.

I voted Sanchez in the earlier poll we had on this forum. They picked the wrong 2B coming out of camp.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2015, 01:39 PM
Thinking about some of the things GoSox2K3 was posting about led me to remember.

While a manager doesn't have the same powers he had "back in the day" he can still do something about stupid play or bad base running or not being able to execute simple fundamentals...he can bench players.

"Back in the Day" if you played for a Paul Richards, Al Lopez or Eddie Stanky if you couldn't do the things they asked like advance a runner from second to third with less than two outs, steal a base, lay down a bunt consistently you'd either be fined or benched and those guys never hesitated to do that if needed.

Ozzie would bench a guy occasionally, Alex Rios comes to mind and Robin has the same whip hand to do that. The question is will he if some of this stuff continues?

Lip

dickallen15
04-16-2015, 01:59 PM
Thinking about some of the things GoSox2K3 was posting about led me to remember.

While a manager doesn't have the same powers he had "back in the day" he can still do something about stupid play or bad base running or not being able to execute simple fundamentals...he can bench players.

"Back in the Day" if you played for a Paul Richards, Al Lopez or Eddie Stanky if you couldn't do the things they asked like advance a runner from second to third with less than two outs, steal a base, lay down a bunt consistently you'd either be fined or benched and those guys never hesitated to do that if needed.

Ozzie would bench a guy occasionally, Alex Rios comes to mind and Robin has the same whip hand to do that. The question is will he if some of this stuff continues?

Lip
Robin took Rios out of a game for loafing. It is a lot harder to bench position guys these days with 12 man pitching staffs.

Mohoney
04-16-2015, 02:13 PM
Except that Buehrle got 4 years at nearly $15 million per season

John Danks also agreed to take only $2 million in compensation for the first year of the contract. Mark Buehrle also backloaded his contract with Miami (probably because he knew Miami would be trading him anyway), but agreeing to a base salary of only $500K with a $1.5 million portion of his signing bonus was something that Mark Buehrle might not have been willing to do.

Noneck
04-16-2015, 02:14 PM
Thinking about some of the things GoSox2K3 was posting about led me to remember.

While a manager doesn't have the same powers he had "back in the day" he can still do something about stupid play or bad base running or not being able to execute simple fundamentals...he can bench players.

"Back in the Day" if you played for a Paul Richards, Al Lopez or Eddie Stanky if you couldn't do the things they asked like advance a runner from second to third with less than two outs, steal a base, lay down a bunt consistently you'd either be fined or benched and those guys never hesitated to do that if needed.

Ozzie would bench a guy occasionally, Alex Rios comes to mind and Robin has the same whip hand to do that. The question is will he if some of this stuff continues?

Lip


Lip,

Different times and as a result different measures. Back in our day the players werent making big money with guaranteed contracts and didnt have a union behind them. Managers are kind of hamstrung these days but its a totally different story before they get into the big leagues. The managers and organization has a lot more control over what can be done before a player gets guarantee money. Thats where the problem is in my eyes. I used to think that the lack of fundamentals was a Sox thing but I am seeing that in players coming from other organizations. I dont know what goes on in spring training so its hard for me to chastise the Sox. Is it possible that the Sox have just been unlucky in obtaining baseball stupid players?

JB98
04-16-2015, 02:19 PM
Thinking about some of the things GoSox2K3 was posting about led me to remember.

While a manager doesn't have the same powers he had "back in the day" he can still do something about stupid play or bad base running or not being able to execute simple fundamentals...he can bench players.

"Back in the Day" if you played for a Paul Richards, Al Lopez or Eddie Stanky if you couldn't do the things they asked like advance a runner from second to third with less than two outs, steal a base, lay down a bunt consistently you'd either be fined or benched and those guys never hesitated to do that if needed.

Ozzie would bench a guy occasionally, Alex Rios comes to mind and Robin has the same whip hand to do that. The question is will he if some of this stuff continues?

Lip

Here's my thought on the matter: Do players police themselves anymore?

For example, when Abreu made that ill-advised throw to the plate in the eighth inning Sunday, does any player go to him and say, "You know, Jose, you really put Zach in a tough spot by not taking the sure out there"?

Does any player go to Eaton yesterday and say, "Adam, you gotta get bunts down. You're too good a player for that kind of bull****"?

Does it always have to come from the manager? Because I personally believe players respond more if they are held accountable by one of their peers. And do the Sox possess that kind of leadership? For years, I've suspected they do not, because Konerko didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that.

But Konerko isn't there anymore, so is there a clubhouse leader?

soltrain21
04-16-2015, 02:20 PM
Here's my thought on the matter: Do players police themselves anymore?

For example, when Abreu made that ill-advised throw to the plate in the eighth inning Sunday, does any player go to him and say, "You know, Jose, you really put Zach in a tough spot by not taking the sure out there"?

Does any player go to Eaton yesterday and say, "Adam, you gotta get bunts down. You're too good a player for that kind of bull****"?

Does it always have to come from the manager? Because I personally believe players respond more if they are held accountable by one of their peers. And do the Sox possess that kind of leadership? For years, I've suspected they do not, because Konerko didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that.

But Konerko isn't there anymore, so is there a clubhouse leader?

Bring in Carl Everett to do it.

TomBradley72
04-16-2015, 02:24 PM
Thinking about some of the things GoSox2K3 was posting about led me to remember.

While a manager doesn't have the same powers he had "back in the day" he can still do something about stupid play or bad base running or not being able to execute simple fundamentals...he can bench players.

"Back in the Day" if you played for a Paul Richards, Al Lopez or Eddie Stanky if you couldn't do the things they asked like advance a runner from second to third with less than two outs, steal a base, lay down a bunt consistently you'd either be fined or benched and those guys never hesitated to do that if needed.

Ozzie would bench a guy occasionally, Alex Rios comes to mind and Robin has the same whip hand to do that. The question is will he if some of this stuff continues?

Lip

We just haven't built a team prioritizing defense/fundamentals- Gillaspie is here because Matt Davidson hasn't worked out and Flowers is here because we don't have anything better in the farm system and there really weren't any better catchers available through trade/FA in the offseason.

The self inflicted wound on this team is having Micah Johnson- who's kind of a disaster (at this stage of his development) on defense and on the bases- IF the Sox really prioritized defense/fundamentals- Sanchez would be the 2B while Micah finishes his development at AAA.

I think the balance of the roster is OK- the OF defense should be OK once Eaton pulls out of his tailspin- Ramirez is fine- and Abreu is OK- especially considering the bat he brings to the game and mixing in LaRoche on defense,

The one question I want answered is that in 2012 Ventura used to run practices the 1st day of every road trip to reinforce fundamentals, etc.- it seemed to be working- then he stopped doing it- and I've never heard an explanation as to why he stopped- the one thing he implemented as a manager that seemed like a good idea that was working.

Noneck
04-16-2015, 02:28 PM
Here's my thought on the matter: Do players police themselves anymore?

For example, when Abreu made that ill-advised throw to the plate in the eighth inning Sunday, does any player go to him and say, "You know, Jose, you really put Zach in a tough spot by not taking the sure out there"?

Does any player go to Eaton yesterday and say, "Adam, you gotta get bunts down. You're too good a player for that kind of bull****"?

Does it always have to come from the manager? Because I personally believe players respond more if they are held accountable by one of their peers. And do the Sox possess that kind of leadership? For years, I've suspected they do not, because Konerko didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that.

But Konerko isn't there anymore, so is there a clubhouse leader?


This has been going on for a long time, Im not convinced the Sox have had a clubhouse for quite sometime.

Andrew C White
04-16-2015, 02:41 PM
Thats where the problem is in my eyes. I used to think that the lack of fundamentals was a Sox thing but I am seeing that in players coming from other organizations. I dont know what goes on in spring training so its hard for me to chastise the Sox. Is it possible that the Sox have just been unlucky in obtaining baseball stupid players?

Players don't spend as much time learning their trade in the minors anymore. The Sox have been particularly bad at rushing players through the minors. Beckham being a perfect example that mistake.

Johnson has tremendous speed and talent but I really felt he should have spent this year in AAA working on his defense and seeing what it is like playing against experienced players. Sanchez at least has spent 2 years at AAA and from what I have seen of him is fundamentally a much more sound ballplayer. I had hoped he would win the 2B job. But it was hard to ignore the great spring that Johnson had.

All but the rarest exceptions really ought to play a full 3-5 years in the minors learning the nuances of the game before they come up to the majors. Seems to me that the coaches at each stage should have specific aspects of the game to concentrate on teaching too. No excuse for a player not to know how to play specific situations once they get here.

But the good ones get rushed up with just 1-2 years in the minors and the average ones maybe 3 years spending half a season at a level before being moved along. Their main talents might be ready but their knowledge of the game is not.

Brian Anderson is another example. He was talented but immature and unready. A few more years of seasoning would have seen him age (and hopefully mature some) as well as learn the game. But he was rushed, crashed and burned, and never recovered. Beckham is a repeat of that. Jared Mitchell, Keenyn Walker, and Courtney Hawkins have also been rushed too fast. Hawkins looks like he may recover and the minors are stronger now so the team may give him more time but Mitchell and Walker are trashed. Remains to be seen about Thompson and Barnum. It's particularly bad for the Sox where they love to draft raw athleticism without regard to baseball experience. I am hoping the fact the team has more talent will slow things down now and allow players to actually learn how to play.

TDog
04-16-2015, 03:11 PM
I want Sanchez (off to a .368 start at Charlotte)- this team desperately needs someone who can play defense and can execute some of the fundamentals- more than we need extra stolen bases- but 85% of my WSI compatriots want the stolen bases.

I think you may be right. As much as I've liked Johnson for some time, I don't know that I like him this year. Johnson made the team because he hit so well in spring training and possesses such great speed. He hasn't learned how to play a major league second base. Watching him learn at the major league level could lead to much diatribe on these pages and shedding of tears.

I wondered when the Sox broke camp with both Johnson and Sanchez, if Johnson was going to go down after seeing what he needed to learn to play a major league second base. Maybe that's still the plan up the road, with Sanchez staying sharp to eventually take his place.

Obviously, there is a difference between Alex Rios or Carlos Lee making mistakes and Micah Johnson making mistakes that seem the same on paper. Johnson got picked off of first after his first major league hit, for example, because he had experienced so little of the major league game. When Rios would drop a routine fly or Carlos Lee would get picked off third, it was because they were playing with their heads somewhere that wasn't in the game.

Chez
04-16-2015, 03:22 PM
The one question I want answered is that in 2012 Ventura used to run practices the 1st day of every road trip to reinforce fundamentals, etc.- it seemed to be working- then he stopped doing it- and I've never heard an explanation as to why he stopped- the one thing he implemented as a manager that seemed like a good idea that was working.


I've wondered the same thing many times. Robin was widely applauded by the media at the time for doing this. I wonder if the [veteran] players rebelled.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2015, 03:37 PM
Robin took Rios out of a game for loafing. It is a lot harder to bench position guys these days with 12 man pitching staffs.

Dick:

I distinctly remember Ozzie doing to Rios in Texas as well. Yanked him in the 4th or 5th inning of a game for not hustling.

Lip

Lip Man 1
04-16-2015, 03:42 PM
Here's my thought on the matter: Do players police themselves anymore?

For example, when Abreu made that ill-advised throw to the plate in the eighth inning Sunday, does any player go to him and say, "You know, Jose, you really put Zach in a tough spot by not taking the sure out there"?

Does any player go to Eaton yesterday and say, "Adam, you gotta get bunts down. You're too good a player for that kind of bull****"?

Does it always have to come from the manager? Because I personally believe players respond more if they are held accountable by one of their peers. And do the Sox possess that kind of leadership? For years, I've suspected they do not, because Konerko didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that.

But Konerko isn't there anymore, so is there a clubhouse leader?

JB:

Great point, great point. I don't know if the Sox have any "vocal" leaders anymore along the lines of a Jim Landis, Fisk, Jack McDowell...even A.J.

Guys who were classified as baseball "red-asses" but had the stones to police the clubhouse and get on guys for not doing what they were supposed to be doing.

I've said for years the Sox haven't had guys like that and need some and that's not saying anything against guys like Buehrle, Thome, Konerko. Getting in someone's face or taking a stand in a clubhouse just wasn't their style. They led by example (and sometimes that just isn't enough.)

Lip

Andrew C White
04-16-2015, 05:47 PM
I've wondered that also. They've made a big deal of going after nice guys and "good clubhouse guys" for about a dozen years now but I've wondered if they didn't need an experienced hard ass or two thrown into the mix.

slavko
04-16-2015, 06:18 PM
I've wondered the same thing many times. Robin was widely applauded by the media at the time for doing this. I wonder if the [veteran] players rebelled.

Good avenue to explore there. Wild guess: Robin didn't stop it by himself and there's been silence on the matter since. If only an insider would give us a clue. We need to know. Calling all disgruntled ex-employees!

Brian26
04-16-2015, 08:04 PM
JB:

Great point, great point. I don't know if the Sox have any "vocal" leaders anymore along the lines of a Jim Landis, Fisk, Jack McDowell...even A.J.


If AJ and McDowell were the police, I don't want to know who the criminals were.

Vernam
04-16-2015, 08:51 PM
This turned into a good thread, glad I checked back in.

The self inflicted wound on this team is having Micah Johnson- who's kind of a disaster (at this stage of his development) on defense and on the bases- IF the Sox really prioritized defense/fundamentals- Sanchez would be the 2B while Micah finishes his development at AAA.

And this has an insidious effect throughout the farm system, because EVERY player in the Sox system can see that what gets rewarded with rapid advancement is not fundamentally sound play. When somebody like Johnson gets fast-tracked and Sanchez gets demoted, word gets around very quickly that the Sox don't practice what they preach.

Heck, it has the same effect at the MLB level, too: Bad defense and base running are tolerated here and have been for about as long as most can remember.

I'm by no means convinced the season is doomed to failure, but enough with the constant Hawk and Stone references to how "no manager looks good when his bullpen sucks," which are meant to remind everyone that Robin didn't have much to work with until this year. That's not inaccurate, but even poorly stocked teams can be held accountable for sloppy play. In fact, non-contending teams especially can and should be made accountable, because there's no major penalty in the standings from benching someone or sending him to the minors.

When there's no such culture, upgrading the talent doesn't get you over the hump, not without leadership (by which I'm talking about the coaching staff and players alike). Too early to say it's totally lacking, but the warning signs are there.

rpmorri
04-16-2015, 08:54 PM
For years, I've suspected they do not, because Konerko didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that.

LOL. At the risk of getting banned for starting more $#/!, believe your hunch. That's my problem with Konerko: he never WAS that type, and leaders have to be that way.

jdm2662
04-16-2015, 09:05 PM
The real question I have, when does the ol Hawk walk into Ventura's clubhouse and ask him what's he going to do about the Sox's sloppy play.

JB98
04-16-2015, 11:33 PM
LOL. At the risk of getting banned for starting more $#/!, believe your hunch. That's my problem with Konerko: he never WAS that type, and leaders have to be that way.

I can't blame Konerko for that, though. He never asked to be named "captain," like a baseball team needs a captain anyway, and he can't be something he's not.

doublem23
04-17-2015, 12:13 AM
It's 11 days into the season, the Sox are in 3rd place, and I already have people calling into question the legacy of one of the greatest players in franchise history

http://24.media.tumblr.com/75d0417ffd9fd3f5c8af25e3fe8a8a19/tumblr_mztf7moQ3b1t6r8rko1_250.gif

Hitmen77
04-17-2015, 08:00 AM
The real question I have, when does the ol Hawk walk into Ventura's clubhouse and ask him what's he going to do about the Sox's sloppy play.

:rolling:

POTW

tstrike2000
04-17-2015, 08:56 AM
The real question I have, when does the ol Hawk walk into Ventura's clubhouse and ask him what's he going to do about the Sox's sloppy play.

Inevitably, Yaz would have to be mentioned and maybe if we had Ted Williams, this team would be 8-0.