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ChiSoxBobette
08-17-2002, 05:19 PM
Saturday Afternoon and after reading about Mark Buehrle losing 1-0 but pitching very well , I turn on the White Sox and what do I see but everybodies favorite "he's only 22 years old"Sox pitcher Jon Garland we should have known when we see who we got him from even they gave up on the guy . I think the guy stinks you can keep all of these scrub pitchers on the White Sox except Buehrle he 's the only sure thing pitcher we have. Yeah I know some idiot is going to see this and probably go crazy but how long has the guy been in the big league now I don't care if he's only 22 as far as I'm concerned the guy sucks, yeah he shows flashes of being a good pitcher emphasis on good not great and so far he's nothing. Every game he's 1&2 , 0&2 on batters and then he loads the count or he throws one down the middle and bada bing whos ever up lights him up like a christmas tree. Next year the Sox should go into spring training with only one sure starting pitcher MARK BUEHRLE the rest of these guys gotta go- Wright, Garland, Glover,Biddle,Ritchie,Ginter THEY ALL STINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

Soxheads
08-17-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Saturday Afternoon and after reading about Mark Buehrle losing 1-0 but pitching very well , I turn on the White Sox and what do I see but everybodies favorite "he's only 22 years old"Sox pitcher Jon Garland we should have known when we see who we got him from even they gave up on the guy . I think the guy stinks you can keep all of these scrub pitchers on the White Sox except Buehrle he 's the only sure thing pitcher we have. Yeah I know some idiot is going to see this and probably go crazy but how long has the guy been in the big league now I don't care if he's only 22 as far as I'm concerned the guy sucks, yeah he shows flashes of being a good pitcher emphasis on good not great and so far he's nothing. Every game he's 1&2 , 0&2 on batters and then he loads the count or he throws one down the middle and bada bing whos ever up lights him up like a christmas tree. Next year the Sox should go into spring training with only one sure starting pitcher MARK BUEHRLE the rest of these guys gotta go- Wright, Garland, Glover,Biddle,Ritchie,Ginter THEY ALL STINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:angry: :angry: :angry:
Yes, I totally agree! They all suck! Get 'em outta here!

WillieHarris12
08-17-2002, 09:25 PM
But this isn't going to happen, I hate the way this works. It seems as though we buy crap and then we can't get rid of it. I remember Jamie Navarro, he was C-R-A-P. And you know why we never got rid of him? A) Money and B) Smart GM's. Money, because we didn't want to pay 4 million to dump him and all of the other GM's in the world of Major League Baseball seem to pick on us somehow. We are always dealt crap for talent. Ritchie is just Navarro part two. I say we just send all of their sorry butts to the minors. The only 3 pitchers we have that can get hitters out are Buehrle, Foulke (who is getting back to normal), and Marte (who can be wild).

doublem23
08-17-2002, 10:31 PM
Garland will be a star.

Lip Man 1
08-17-2002, 10:37 PM
Bottom line fans is this. The Sox "an't miss kids" were overhyped, thrown to the wolves of MLB without a lot of minor league experience and received very little guidance when they got to the majors because the coaching staff themselves had a mediocre track record at best.

If you are going to go with "can't miss kids" for a pitching staff, you have to hire the best possible manager and pitching coach. You also have to have a solid defense around them to help them through the rough spots.

The Sox as usual, have done NONE of these things. Compounding the problem is that they won't go out and get a top quality pitcher to lead the way.

David Wells was a risk. He was overweight and had a bad back. Todd Ritchie had a 4 plus ERA in the N.L. A league where the pitcher bats.

The Sox haven't gone out and gotten solid pitchers since the early 90's when every year they picked up a Kirk McCaskill, Charlie Hough, Kevin Tapani or Scott Sanderson and they all came through. As long as current ownership refuses to spend money to augment the "can't miss kids" with some solid low risk veteran starting pitchers, this problem will continue ad infanitum.

Lip

RedPinStripes
08-17-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bottom line fans is this. The Sox "an't miss kids" were overhyped, thrown to the wolves of MLB without a lot of minor league experience and received very little guidance when they got to the majors because the coaching staff themselves had a mediocre track record at best.

If you are going to go with "can't miss kids" for a pitching staff, you have to hire the best possible manager and pitching coach. You also have to have a solid defense around them to help them through the rough spots.

The Sox as usual, have done NONE of these things. Compounding the problem is that they won't go out and get a top quality pitcher to lead the way.

David Wells was a risk. He was overweight and had a bad back. Todd Ritchie had a 4 plus ERA in the N.L. A league where the pitcher bats.

The Sox haven't gone out and gotten solid pitchers since the early 90's when every year they picked up a Kirk McCaskill, Charlie Hough, Kevin Tapani or Scott Sanderson and they all came through. As long as current ownership refuses to spend money to augment the "can't miss kids" with some solid low risk veteran starting pitchers, this problem will continue ad infanitum.

Lip

You are correct!

WinningUgly!
08-18-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Yeah I know some idiot is going to see this and probably go crazy but how long has the guy been in the big league now I don't care if he's only 22 as far as I'm concerned the guy sucks, yeah he shows flashes of being a good pitcher emphasis on good not great and so far he's nothing.

You're right, young pitchers never get better with time & experience. Just ask LA or Montreal about Pedro. :D:

ChiSoxBobette
08-18-2002, 07:22 PM
Jon Garland, Dan Wright & Gary Glover , you are comparing them to Pedro Martinez thay are'nt even in Mark Buehrle's class and they've been pitching longer or as long as Mark. Today Sat. Aug 17th Dan Wright (or should I say Wrong) gets a lead granted it was only 1-0 but he was pitching against Zito who probably has been pitching in the league as long or maybe even shorter than Garland or Wright and what doe mr. Wrong do the very next inning ...Gives Up 3 Runs. I'm tired of hearing probably die hard Sox fans saying we have to give these guys time how much time do we give them if they are'nt really that good , someone earlier posted something saying we should just keep Buehrle, Foulke & Marte I stiil don't know about Foulke but Buehrle & Marte thats about it the rest can be scrapped , but to compare Garland Wright & Glover to Pedro Martinez come on those three don't and have'nt shown anything, before the trade deadline I never read or heard on the radio talk sports shows about any of the teams that are still in the pennant or wild card races beating down the White Sox door asking about those three. If anything Wright & Glover may have a future in the bullpen but Garland is just a flub bust that the flubs dumped on us. I'm sure someone will post something about him being only 22 years old but the guy's been pitching in the majors for what 2 or 3 years how long do we wait. DUMP THE GUY HE'S DEAD WEIGHT!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

Daver
08-18-2002, 07:29 PM
[i]Garland is just a flub bust that the flubs dumped on us. I'm sure someone will post something about him being only 22 years old but the guy's been pitching in the majors for what 2 or 3 years how long do we wait. DUMP THE GUY HE'S DEAD WEIGHT!
:angry: :angry: :angry: [/B]

And you base your analysis on what? Is it a flaw is his delivery that your seeing and no one else does? Do you have an opinion about his mechanics being good or bad? Can you offer us a reason as to why he has no future as a pitcher in this league?

When you can answer these questions I will consider giving your opinions any credence.

GASHWOUND
08-18-2002, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Garland is just a flub bust that the flubs dumped on us. I'm sure someone will post something about him being only 22 years old but the guy's been pitching in the majors for what 2 or 3 years how long do we wait. DUMP THE GUY HE'S DEAD WEIGHT!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

That's a retarded statement with nothing to back it up..yeah, he's had his share of bad starts this year, but he's had more good, quality starts than bad..

here are some pitching lines for yo of the starts he's had this year

7.0inn 3er
5.0inn 0er
8.0inn 0er
7.0inn 3er
6.2inn 0er
6.2inn 1er
6.0inn 1er
7.0inn 4er
6.0inn 1er
7.0inn 3er
6.2inn 3er

Yaer, just dead weight
he's also had some starts where he piched o.k. and kept them in the game.

5.2in 3er
5.1inn 4er
6.2inn 4er
6.0inn 4er
6.2inn 4er

Sooo, you still want to get rid of him??
Doublem is right, the guy will be a star

soxtalker
08-18-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bottom line fans is this. The Sox "an't miss kids" were overhyped, thrown to the wolves of MLB without a lot of minor league experience and received very little guidance when they got to the majors because the coaching staff themselves had a mediocre track record at best.

If you are going to go with "can't miss kids" for a pitching staff, you have to hire the best possible manager and pitching coach. You also have to have a solid defense around them to help them through the rough spots.

The Sox as usual, have done NONE of these things. Compounding the problem is that they won't go out and get a top quality pitcher to lead the way.

David Wells was a risk. He was overweight and had a bad back. Todd Ritchie had a 4 plus ERA in the N.L. A league where the pitcher bats.

The Sox haven't gone out and gotten solid pitchers since the early 90's when every year they picked up a Kirk McCaskill, Charlie Hough, Kevin Tapani or Scott Sanderson and they all came through. As long as current ownership refuses to spend money to augment the "can't miss kids" with some solid low risk veteran starting pitchers, this problem will continue ad infanitum.

Lip

Good points about the importance of having coaches and a veteran pitcher than can help the young pitchers learn. Actually, I was (probably one of the few) sorry to see that the Sox didn't try to keep David Wells during the off season for precisely this reason. Buehrle used to talk to him all the time about pitching, and I would have liked to see the other young pitchers take advantage of his advice.

TornLabrum
08-18-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


Good points about the importance of having coaches and a veteran pitcher than can help the young pitchers learn. Actually, I was (probably one of the few) sorry to see that the Sox didn't try to keep David Wells during the off season for precisely this reason. Buehrle used to talk to him all the time about pitching, and I would have liked to see the other young pitchers take advantage of his advice.

Can you imagine a conversation between Buehrle and Ritchie?

:ritchie

"Mark, can you give me some pointers? I can't seem to get anyone out."

:burly

"Sure, kid. Be glad to help."

WinningUgly!
08-19-2002, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Jon Garland, Dan Wright & Gary Glover , you are comparing them to Pedro Martinez thay are'nt even in Mark Buehrle's class

No I'm not comparing them to Pedro & they will never be in Pedro's class. My point (which you obviously missed) was about giving up on a young pitcher. Maybe a better comparison would have been to say...Kip Wells or Josh Fogg?

I'm curious now, you get to wear Kenny's GM hat...you just scrapped Garland, Wright & Glover. Who are you planning on plugging into the rotation? I'm sure you have a deal in the works with Arizona for Schilling & Johnson. :D:

guillen4life13
08-19-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Jon Garland, Dan Wright & Gary Glover , you are comparing them to Pedro Martinez thay are'nt even in Mark Buehrle's class and they've been pitching longer or as long as Mark. Today Sat. Aug 17th Dan Wright (or should I say Wrong) gets a lead granted it was only 1-0 but he was pitching against Zito who probably has been pitching in the league as long or maybe even shorter than Garland or Wright and what doe mr. Wrong do the very next inning ...Gives Up 3 Runs. I'm tired of hearing probably die hard Sox fans saying we have to give these guys time how much time do we give them if they are'nt really that good , someone earlier posted something saying we should just keep Buehrle, Foulke & Marte I stiil don't know about Foulke but Buehrle & Marte thats about it the rest can be scrapped , but to compare Garland Wright & Glover to Pedro Martinez come on those three don't and have'nt shown anything, before the trade deadline I never read or heard on the radio talk sports shows about any of the teams that are still in the pennant or wild card races beating down the White Sox door asking about those three. If anything Wright & Glover may have a future in the bullpen but Garland is just a flub bust that the flubs dumped on us. I'm sure someone will post something about him being only 22 years old but the guy's been pitching in the majors for what 2 or 3 years how long do we wait. DUMP THE GUY HE'S DEAD WEIGHT!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

no offense, man, but as someone pointed out earlier... you have absolutely no physical evidence to back your points up. and please... there are VERY few pitchers who ever have such success so early in a career as mark buehrle. i can make no guarantee that garland is going to be a star, but he will at least be a solid #2-#3 starter, if not better. and now that don cooper is the pitching coach, I think we are going to see much better things out of jon than we have before.


Originally posted by TornLabrum


Can you imagine a conversation between Buehrle and Ritchie?

:ritchie

"Mark, can you give me some pointers? I can't seem to get anyone out."

:burly

"Sure, kid. Be glad to help."


lol!!

ChiSoxBobette
08-19-2002, 11:32 AM
As I said Sox Fans posting comments about my opinion about Garland, Wright, Glover- No I don't know who the Sox can get to fill the starting rolls of the above mentioned pitchers, but I think all of you who are saying I'm wrong about them especially Garland are missing the point HOW LONG DO WE GO WITH THESE GUYS especially Garland who are idiot G.M. tryed to trade during the spring why do you think that was ,I know we needed a leadoff hitter but starting pitchers are something you should'nt trade(except if thier names are Kip Wells / Josh Fogg but thats another story)I just don't think Garland will ever be that good/maybe great starting pitcher I don't think he has the smarts just look at the way he pitches with his stuff and the time he's been in the majors I think he would have been a lot better than he's shown.
Maybe I'm wrong and maybe like someone said on ESPN radio Sunday before the Sox game the most disappointing thing this year about the Sox is the G.M., Manager and the coaching staff and if the manager & his coaches are the problem then I don't care how much talent Garland, Wright or Glover have if there're not brought along correctly then the only way thay're going to live up to their potential is to be traded look at Wells & Fogg look at what they're doing in Pittsburgh but they could'nt do it here only expalinantion is manager & coaches. In that case lets hope Manuel & his staff are evaluated this off season and given thier walking papers. But I don't know about Garland the other two well I think Farmio is right about Dan Wright he could be a good stopper short reliever because thats all he does now he gives you about 3/4 quality inning and thats it, Gary Glover well he's already proved he's a better short/long reliever than a starter.

hold2dibber
08-19-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
As I said Sox Fans posting comments about my opinion about Garland, Wright, Glover- No I don't know who the Sox can get to fill the starting rolls of the above mentioned pitchers, but I think all of you who are saying I'm wrong about them especially Garland are missing the point HOW LONG DO WE GO WITH THESE GUYS especially Garland who are idiot G.M. tryed to trade during the spring why do you think that was ,I know we needed a leadoff hitter but starting pitchers are something you should'nt trade(except if thier names are Kip Wells / Josh Fogg but thats another story)I just don't think Garland will ever be that good/maybe great starting pitcher I don't think he has the smarts just look at the way he pitches with his stuff and the time he's been in the majors I think he would have been a lot better than he's shown.
Maybe I'm wrong and maybe like someone said on ESPN radio Sunday before the Sox game the most disappointing thing this year about the Sox is the G.M., Manager and the coaching staff and if the manager & his coaches are the problem then I don't care how much talent Garland, Wright or Glover have if there're not brought along correctly then the only way thay're going to live up to their potential is to be traded look at Wells & Fogg look at what they're doing in Pittsburgh but they could'nt do it here only expalinantion is manager & coaches. In that case lets hope Manuel & his staff are evaluated this off season and given thier walking papers. But I don't know about Garland the other two well I think Farmio is right about Dan Wright he could be a good stopper short reliever because thats all he does now he gives you about 3/4 quality inning and thats it, Gary Glover well he's already proved he's a better short/long reliever than a starter.

You seem to be all over the map here. First you say Garland sucks and should be dumped, but then you criticize KW for trying to trade him to Anaheim during the off season. Which is it? But I do understand your frustration with Garland - it seems like he has been around forever and he still hasn't gotten over the hump. But the fact remains, he is VERY young - most of his contemporaries are pitching in double A ball still. And if you add that to the fact that he has had many quality starts, I think it would be foolish to give up on him. How long do you give him? That's a tougher question. If they had been in the race this year (he'd be, at best, the number 5 starter right now, but more likely would be in the pen). But the only way this team is going to be competitive any time in the near future is for the young pitching to come around. You know that JR isn't going to find pitching via the free agent market and you know KW is unlikely to be able to deal any of these young pitchers for good starting pitching. So no matter what you think of Garland, you had better hope he (and Wright and Biddle and Ginter and Glover) can turn his potential into performance, or its going to be a long decade. Again.

Soxheads
08-19-2002, 04:18 PM
Bob-

Would you rather have Matt Karchner here?