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View Full Version : This team is so disappointing


Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 10:50 AM
I just wanted to point out what a shame it is that our team is so loaded w/ talent and ability and is, yet, mired in mediocrity at the .500 level, again.

Careful management and motivating of our hitters and pitchers shoulda, woulda and coulda put us in a spot to contend. Look at the talent on this club, even with the injuries. We have good starters, good relievers, and many good hitters.

Careful management could have kept the hitters on task in a way that they would have been more aptly working counts, not swinging on 3-1 pitches w/ the bags jammed, not always swinging for fences, scoring runners from third, not ALWAYS bunting foul. Further proper management would have concluded that Royce should have been in a batting cage during April and May instead of between the chalklines, and that Baines was a legend in the 80's and early 90's and NOT the 00's. They'd have realized that Ramirez was barely good enough for AA or AAA and not good enough for the Sox. We could all realize this. Why couldn't they? Couldn't they see Rowand belonged up here as soon as he got hot in April/May? Why stick w/ Baines?

Why hasn't Manuel moved pitchers around a little more this year? Why did it take a stick of dynamite under his @$$ to put Lowe in as a starter? To pull Wells from the rotation? To pull Biddle? To start Glover? These are all very inexperienced pitchers and are extremely prone to hot and cold streaks. If Manuel really wants to win, then he needs to be willing to rotate the young guys in and out of the pen. When a youngster like KWells gets cold, it can last a couple of months. It all just seems like common sense.

So many questions. It's all pretty sad. We could and should be in much better shape right now. Thank goodness our future looks bright.

voodoochile
08-09-2001, 10:57 AM
Manual has done that with the pitchers. What do you want him to do, bench someone everytime they have a bad start? You have to give a kid a few bad starts before you put him in the pen, otherwise they never develop into major leaguers. Yes, it is unfortunate that the Sox have not had as much offensive success as they expected this year, but the whole team was in a slump the first two months and Franks loss was like a cannon shot right throught the gut of the ship. Personally I'm pretty impressed with Manual and the other coaches (Ward doesn't blow me away) for the way they have managed to keep the team in the playoff hunt even after losing 60% of their opening day starters and over half their opening day bullpen for the season in the first two+ months...

Are you expecting a miracle? Maybe it is still coming...

doublem23
08-09-2001, 02:33 PM
I think Manuel is doing a decent job with the staff. Lets face it, we want to see if guys like Kip, Garland, and Buerhle can be the cornerstone of our team, not guys like Sean Lowe and Gary Glover. Given that, I don't understand why you think it helps pitchers out at all to dump them in the 'pen after 1 bad start.

Good thing we didn't do that, cuz Buerhle had a 7.02 ERA after like, 4 starts or something. THANK GOOD WE DIDN'T STICK HIM IN THE PEN!

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 03:11 PM
I certainly don't feel that they ought to "dumped" in the pen after a bad start. Of course they need time to develop and get their wings as a starter. My point is that I don't see anything wrong w/ shuffling them back and forth as a part of learning to play in the majors. The history of many of these young pitchers has been that they go into 1-2 month long slumps and then they snap out of it w/ a vengeance. I've not yet seen one of our young starters snap out of his slump by continuing to start. I have, however, seen lots of them get hot by getting spot innings in the pen until they had their confidence and location back.

I'm not sure why you make reference to how we shouldn't be trying to see what Glover or Lowe can do as starters. Lowe is an excellent starter so why not let him keep starting? Glover is a 24 yr old kid who's been a starter at all levels except in his time on the Sox. How do we know if he's not the next superstar if we don't try to find out? He looks like he could be anywhere from an adequate to a stud starter. Let's see what we have and let KWells get his location and confidence back while in the pen.

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Lets face it, we want to see if guys like Kip, Garland, and Buerhle can be the cornerstone of our team, not guys like Sean Lowe and Gary Glover

Why not Lowe and Glover? Why can't they be our cornerstones? I'd rather have the best guys be our cornerstones, and right now, Lowe and Glover fit right in w/ our "best guys."

Kilroy
08-09-2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Careful management could have kept the hitters on task in a way that they would have been more aptly working counts, not swinging on 3-1 pitches w/ the bags jammed, not always swinging for fences, scoring runners from third, not ALWAYS bunting foul.

Are you kidding? Come on man. There's a lot of ground between telling someone to do something and them actually doing what you said. Players have to want to do it. And sometimes, no amount of motivation is enuf...

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Personally I'm pretty impressed with Manual and the other coaches (Ward doesn't blow me away) for the way they have managed to keep the team in the playoff hunt even after losing 60% of their opening day starters and over half their opening day bullpen for the season in the first two+ months...

Are you expecting a miracle? Maybe it is still coming...

What has Manuel done that impresses you? He's lucky that the Sox have such a deep stable of pitching talent, but I don't think Manuel has anything to do w/ that. Canseco comes along and hits homers and scores runs and Manuel didn't have a lot to do w/ that. Our players don't try to work counts or get walks. They swing for homers most of the time, and I feel that is the manager's responsibility.

There is no reason that this team isn't 10 games over .500 right now, with or without Frank. We have way way way too much hitting on this team to have scored fewer runs than the Cubs this season. I put that on the manager's shoulders.

Paulwny
08-09-2001, 03:23 PM
I had a high school baseball coach who would constantly yell "You gotta wanna" whenever we were batting.

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Are you kidding? Come on man. There's a lot of ground between telling someone to do something and them actually doing what you said. Players have to want to do it. And sometimes, no amount of motivation is enuf...

You've hit my nail on the head. It is a manager's job to get his players to perform at their maximum output. Pinella, Torre, etc...they get their guys to do what they say. If they players don't do or TRY to do what the manager is asking/telling, then the manager is failing.

Clarkdog
08-09-2001, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


It is a manager's job to get his players to perform at their maximum output. Pinella, Torre, etc...they get their guys to do what they say. If they players don't do or TRY to do what the manager is asking/telling, then the manager is failing.

I'd agree with that. I'll give Manuel his props for the way he has managed personel in the face of so many injuries. But I am not sure that this ballclub wouldn't be in the same predicament of mediorcity without the injuries.

I'll say it again, I like Manuel the same way I liked Doug Collins when he was with the Bulls. Good with a young team, tries to bring excitement and aggresiveness in the team's play. I also believe that the Sox are in the same place the Bulls were when the decided to fire Collins. Young with talent a plenty, but no focus or direction on how to play and win as a team. That is what Pinella, Torre, etc. really are masters of. Pinella proved that when the Mariners swept the Sox in the 2000 playoffs.

I just don't think Manuel has that.