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duke of dorwood
08-15-2002, 07:56 AM
ARLINGTON, Texas--With the opportunity to look back at the last two seasons, manager Jerry Manuel had regrets about removing Jose Valentin from shortstop.

That call, of course, ultimately was made by general manager Kenny Williams, who traded for Royce Clayton in December of 2000, two months after the Sox had appeared in the playoffs with Valentin at short. It was one of Williams' early deals as Sox GM.

Valentin had committed a staggering 36 errors in that playoff season, and the thought was that a strong fielding shortstop would carry the Sox to the next level.

"We felt, just like everybody felt, that hey, we have improved defensively right there,'' Manuel said. "But it didn't fit right as [Valentin] did the year before. That's hindsight, but that's true.''

Manuel acknowledged Valentin's fielding struggles, but he also praised an intangible that Valentin brings to games.

"Those errors he did make, all errors hurt, but there was one game in Oakland he made them in bunches and he came back out the next day and played solid,'' Manuel said. "When he's there, he seems to be a little more in a leadership role, despite not being as effective as the other guys.

"He can throw some away like that quarterback you want to jerk out of the game, then all of a sudden, bam, there's one down the sideline. That's the way he is, wildfire.''

PaleHoseGeorge
08-15-2002, 08:40 AM
I'm assuming this was an AP story? Probably just another reporter putting his own spin on things. :smile:

But seriously folks...

Manuel is badly mistakened if he believes "everybody felt" moving Valentin was a good idea. Sure, everybody thought signing Alex Rodriguez was a good idea--that's a no-brainer. That was what KW stated he was going to try to do.

But the deal fell through when Reinsdorf, inexplicably, demanded a private meeting with Arod away from his agent Scott Boras.

Oh sure, that's going to happen. Who does Reinsdorf think he's dealing with--Horace Grant?

So after Arod signs with Texas for boxcar numbers, THEN Williams does the deal for Clayton? Whoa!

Sorry, I wasn't on board for that move, and plenty others around here weren't either.

:jerry
"I'm suffering from selective memory."

Jerry_Manuel
08-15-2002, 08:51 AM
I think Manuel knew from day one what a pain the ass Clayton was.

Him speaking out now leads me to believe he feels he may be on his way out the door.

delben91
08-15-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm assuming this was an AP story? Probably just another reporter putting his own spin on things. :smile:



Well, here it is in the Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug152.html)

So, for what it's worth, it may be a local piece and not of AP origin.

cheeses_h_rice
08-15-2002, 09:17 AM
:jerry

It's those damn ice cream bills, I tells ya.

They're killing me!

PaleHoseGeorge
08-15-2002, 09:17 AM
Oh, here's another part I love...

"Those errors he did make, all errors hurt, but there was one game in Oakland he made them in bunches and he came back out the next day and played solid,'' Manuel said.

HUH???

The Sox WON that game, Jerry! Valentin made 4 errors and the Sox won.

I'm not saying the errors didn't hurt; I'm simply noting they weren't the difference in the outcome. And furthermore, Manuel has his facts scrambled to think it did.

April 8 at Oakland. Sox beat Oakland 7-3. Valentin commits four errors.

Sheesh... this guy is a total mess. No wonder the players gave up on him.

From the Sox 2001 media guide...

"The Sox were 17-11 when he [Valentin] committed an error and only 16 of 36 miscues led to runs."

:jerry
"Umm... maybe I ought to brush up on the media guide."

Iwritecode
08-15-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Oh, here's another part I love...



HUH???

The Sox WON that game, Jerry! Valentin made 4 errors and the Sox won.

I'm not saying the errors didn't hurt; I'm simply noting they weren't the difference in the outcome. And furthermore, Manuel has his facts scrambled to think it did.

April 8 at Oakland. Sox beat Oakland 7-3. Valentin commits four errors.

Sheesh... this guy is a total mess. No wonder the players gave up on him.

From the Sox 2001 media guide...

"The Sox were 17-11 when he [Valentin] committed an error and only 16 of 36 miscues led to runs."

:jerry
"Umm... maybe I ought to brush up on the media guide."

Obviously Jerry doesn't read this site. I knew all this a long time ago. Shameless plug (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Iwritecode/ValentinErrors.htm)

Iwritecode
08-15-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by delben91


Well, here it is in the Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug152.html)

So, for what it's worth, it may be a local piece and not of AP origin.

I found the same thing in the cubune.

Valentin a big hit in shortstop role
Manuel believes veteran 'capable' of starting in '03

By Phil Rogers
Tribune baseball reporter

August 14, 2002, 9:29 PM CDT


ARLINGTON, Texas—Football was on Jerry Manuel's mind Wednesday. He provided an interesting analogy when asked about Jose Valentin's fielding at shortstop.

"He's like a quarterback you're looking to yank out of the game and—boom!—he throws one down the sideline to a receiver who takes it in," Manuel said. "He throws two or three away, then pump-fakes and there it is—touchdown. He takes a leadership role at shortstop."

Since third baseman Joe Crede was promoted from Triple-A Charlotte on July 30, Manuel has gotten reacquainted with having Valentin as his primary shortstop. The switch-hitter remains an offensive weapon—he homered from both sides of the plate Tuesday night—but has lost a step in the field since 2000, when he played short for the White Sox's division-winning team.

His range appears especially limited when compared with Royce Clayton, who starts against left-handers. But Valentin makes plays with an above-average arm. He made 36 errors in 2000 and this year has only two in 22 games at short.

"There's no doubt he can be [the starting shortstop in 2003]," Manuel said. "We definitely feel he's capable. That showed with what we did in 2000. Despite making a lot of errors, he also made a lot of big plays. I'd like to see him get back into the rhythm and flow of shortstop. He's not quite there yet. I would hope he can get back to that level of play and maybe be a little better because of his experience and knowing himself."

While Clayton is eligible for free agency, Valentin is signed through 2003. The other option at shortstop is D'Angelo Jimenez, acquired from San Diego in a minor-league trade a month ago. He's hitting .280 with four homers and five stolen bases in 32 games at Triple-A Charlotte.

Taking a breather: Manuel rested Paul Konerko against Texas right-hander Ismael Valdes on Wednesday. It allowed him to give Jeff Liefer a third consecutive start.

Konerko, who hit a three-run homer in Tuesday's 12-3 victory, has a nine-game hitting streak. Yet Manuel said he is "not quite right [mechanically]."

Fast start: Joliet High School product Todd Deininger threw three scoreless innings in Bristol's 5-4 victory over Burlington on Tuesday. He is 0-1 with a 1.72 ERA in 16 appearances for the Sox's affiliate in the rookie-level Appalachian League.

Deininger was a fifth-round pick of the Cubs in the 1999 draft but opted to go to Texas A&M instead. The White Sox selected the 6-foot-3-inch right-hander in the ninth round this year.

"He pitched in a lot of different roles at Texas A&M," Sox scouting director Doug Laumann said. "He was rated as one of the top pitchers in the Cape Cod League last year, but he didn't log too many innings at Texas A&M this year. We kind of went back a little bit on what we saw last summer and ended up taking him on what we saw last year."

Royce Ring, the San Diego State left-hander who was the Sox's first-round pick, continues to pitch well. He is 1-0 with five saves and a 1.45 ERA in 17 appearances for high Class A Winston-Salem.
Copyright © 2002, The Chicago Tribune

CubKilla
08-15-2002, 10:25 AM
JM looks more and more like :wanne as this season drags on.

duke of dorwood
08-15-2002, 11:27 AM
May he end up in Miami too (where he came from)

RedPinStripes
08-15-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
May he end up in Miami too (where he came from)

Not with the sarasota sox like JR wanted i hope!

cheeses_h_rice
08-15-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
JM looks more and more like :wanne as this season drags on.

:jerry

We didn't do DIDDLY-POO last night in Texas!

All the pieces are in place!

CiscoCarlos
08-15-2002, 12:37 PM
Geez all this ripping of Manuel for saying something the vast majority of Sox fans agree with. Incredible.

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by CiscoCarlos
Geez all this ripping of Manuel for saying something the vast majority of Sox fans agree with. Incredible.

We are not upset with Manuel because he admitted it was a mistake to trade for Clayton. Most people are angry because JM waited two years to admit that the deal was a poor decision.

Ken Williams should be fired over the Clayton and Ritchie trades alone. Why he thought Clayton could dangled as trade bait is beyond me. He should have realized that Royce isn't highly thought of in the Major Leagues. KW should have realized he was making a mistake when the Sox were the only team insterested in Clayton. Everyone likes to talk about The Choice's glove, but if he is such an excellent defensive shortstop, why have other teams not shown interest in him. Royce is a cancer in the clubhouse. That incident with the radio and him whining about food proves it.

He is remembered by most as the man who pushed Ozzie Smith out the door in 1996. It was during his time with the Cardinals that his manager started buying him ice cream after games. Manuel has continued this tradition since Clayton joined the Sox.

Sox management continues to cite Valentin's defensive struggles as the reason for the accquisition of The Choice. Funny how they never mention Valentin as the alternative to Royce's lack of power or ability to drive in runs on a regular basis.

If Manuel is so dissapointed with Clayton's production, he should never have given him playing time. When he benched back in June, he should have left him there for the remainder of the season. Instead, Royce cried to the media, and JM caved. He inserted Clayton into the lineup for a Thursday afternoon game against KC, and the rest is history.

I'm sick and tired of Manuel making decisions, only to admit he screwed up later. The sad part is, even when JM is aware of his mistakes, he contines making them. I am reminded of when he said, "I do like to tinker. It usually doesn't work, though."

Yet, he continues to mess with the lineup on a daily basis. Only once in the last ten games has he sent the same lineup out there two days in a row, and that was because Mark Johnson missed a game with an inflamed right big toe.

Again, Manuel should have realized last season that the Clayton trade was a mistake. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that someone hitting .099 on May 23 doesn't deserve to play, let alone start, on a Major League team.

Foulke You
08-15-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by CiscoCarlos
Geez all this ripping of Manuel for saying something the vast majority of Sox fans agree with. Incredible.

The reason he's getting ripped on is because he just realized NOW what most of us Sox fans knew in the 1st month of the 2001 season or immediately after the Clayton trade. Valentin is a gamer, a winner, plays with guts, is super clutch, has a great throwing arm, and we won 95 games and a division title with him at SS. Clayton is a horrid 1st half hitter who gets his average up to respectability during "garbage time", is overrated defensively, has a below average throwing arm, and is a clubhouse cancer who had an instant negative effect on the winning ways of 2000. Aside from the Friends of Choice organization, no Sox fan liked the bum and we all wanted Valentin at SS and either Crede or Herbert Perry at 3B. It just took nearly 2 full seasons for the dim GE bulb above Manuel's head to light up.

:jerry
"Royce didn't bring his A game for the last 2 years."

doublem23
08-15-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Not with the sarasota sox like JR wanted i hope!

Hey, the Sarasota Sox are a Red Sox farm team, so JM can go there if JR insists...

:)

Kilroy
08-15-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


The reason he's getting ripped on is because he just realized NOW what most of us Sox fans knew in the 1st month of the 2001 season or immediately after the Clayton trade.


That he said something NOW doesn't mean that he only just now realized it.

Paulwny
08-15-2002, 01:17 PM
It's hard to believe that Houston isn't interested in Clayton now that Lugo is out for the year.

duke of dorwood
08-15-2002, 01:21 PM
"Houston, you want a problem?"

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


That he said something NOW doesn't mean that he only just now realized it.

What you say is true; however, keep in mind that as the manager of this ballclub, Jerry Manuel reserves the right to bench anyone whom he feels is not performing well. Yet, he continued to give Clayton playing time, in spite of the fact that The Choice hasn't done much with the bat since the Sox traded for him. This leads me, and others, to believe that JM didn't realize how much Clayton's lack of production was hurting the team.

Paulwny
08-15-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


What you say is true; however, keep in mind that as the manager of this ballclub, Jerry Manuel reserves the right to bench anyone whom he feels is not performing well. Yet, he continued to give Clayton playing time, in spite of the fact that The Choice hasn't done much with the bat since the Sox traded for him. This leads me, and others, to believe that JM didn't realize how much Clayton's lack of production was hurting the team.

All you said is true if JM is totally in charge. I think there's pressure from the top, KW.

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


All you said is true if JM is totally in charge. I think there's pressure from the top, KW.

I thought about that, and since you brought it up, I have ask the following quetsion: In the event that Williams is forcing Manuel to start Clayton, what does JM have to lose if he benches The Choice?

If Williams decides to fire Manuel, the Sox are still obligated to pay him for the remainder of his contract (through 2004, I believe). Manuel would still get his money, and he would have more than enough time to look for another job when his contract expired.

duke of dorwood
08-15-2002, 01:49 PM
Does anyone know how long KW has a contract for?

voodoochile
08-15-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


The reason he's getting ripped on is because he just realized NOW what most of us Sox fans knew in the 1st month of the 2001 season or immediately after the Clayton trade. Valentin is a gamer, a winner, plays with guts, is super clutch, has a great throwing arm, and we won 95 games and a division title with him at SS. Clayton is a horrid 1st half hitter who gets his average up to respectability during "garbage time", is overrated defensively, has a below average throwing arm, and is a clubhouse cancer who had an instant negative effect on the winning ways of 2000. Aside from the Friends of Choice organization, no Sox fan liked the bum and we all wanted Valentin at SS and either Crede or Herbert Perry at 3B. It just took nearly 2 full seasons for the dim GE bulb above Manuel's head to light up.

:jerry
"Royce didn't bring his A game for the last 2 years."

Beyond all that, even if it wasn't his fault that the Sox acquired Royce, it definitely is his fault that Royce kept/keeps playing. No one says he has to play a player just because KW was dumb enough to trade for them. How come it took 4 months to bench Ritchie, but almost 2 years to bench Royce?

:jerry
"My sister gets upset if I don't play her son on a regular basis, and Royceee gets upset if he doesn't get his ice cream on a regular basis. How can I buy him ice cream if he doesn't play? This isn't little league, you have to earn your ice cream on the Sox."

:manos
"I never get ice cream even when I drive in 6 RBI's and hit a grand slam. Heck, I'm lucky if I even get to play the next day."

:jerry
"That's it, Jose, back to the bench. I'm tired of that surly attitude. I'm starting my nephew, even if he was a mistake."

:hitless
(sticks out his tongue at jose)"Nyah nyah nyah nyah. I wuv my Uncle Jerry, but the rest of these idiots make me sick to my stomach. None of them can hold my jock."

:bart
"bite me, hitless."

Foulke You
08-15-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Beyond all that, even if it wasn't his fault that the Sox acquired Royce, it definitely is his fault that Royce kept/keeps playing. No one says he has to play a player just because KW was dumb enough to trade for them. How come it took 4 months to bench Ritchie, but almost 2 years to bench Royce?

:jerry
"My sister gets upset if I don't play her son on a regular basis, and Royceee gets upset if he doesn't get his ice cream on a regular basis. How can I buy him ice cream if he doesn't play? This isn't little league, you have to earn your ice cream on the Sox."

:manos
"I never get ice cream even when I drive in 6 RBI's and hit a grand slam. Heck, I'm lucky if I even get to play the next day."

:jerry
"That's it, Jose, back to the bench. I'm tired of that surly attitude. I'm starting my nephew, even if he was a mistake."

:hitless
(sticks out his tongue at jose)"Nyah nyah nyah nyah. I wuv my Uncle Jerry, but the rest of these idiots make me sick to my stomach. None of them can hold my jock."

:bart
"bite me, hitless."

That little back and forth probably is not too far from the truth...

Hey! I've got an idea! Why don't we have an "End of Choice" magic number meter on the top of WSI to countdown the days til the end of the Royce Clayton era on the Sox? At least we can have something to "clinch" at the end of the season. Then we can have our "End of Royce The Choice Era: 2001-2002" collector's clubhouse t-shirt that can be sold on the last day of the season! Hey, it ain't a central division title shirt but at this point...

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Beyond all that, even if it wasn't his fault that the Sox acquired Royce, it definitely is his fault that Royce kept/keeps playing. No one says he has to play a player just because KW was dumb enough to trade for them. How come it took 4 months to bench Ritchie, but almost 2 years to bench Royce?

:jerry
"My sister gets upset if I don't play her son on a regular basis, and Royceee gets upset if he doesn't get his ice cream on a regular basis. How can I buy him ice cream if he doesn't play? This isn't little league, you have to earn your ice cream on the Sox."

:manos
"I never get ice cream even when I drive in 6 RBI's and hit a grand slam. Heck, I'm lucky if I even get to play the next day."

:jerry
"That's it, Jose, back to the bench. I'm tired of that surly attitude. I'm starting my nephew, even if he was a mistake."

:hitless
(sticks out his tongue at jose)"Nyah nyah nyah nyah. I wuv my Uncle Jerry, but the rest of these idiots make me sick to my stomach. None of them can hold my jock."

:bart
"bite me, hitless."

This would be funnier if it weren't so close to the truth.

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Hey! I've got an idea! Why don't we have an "End of Choice" magic number meter on the top of WSI to countdown the days til the end of the Royce Clayton era on the Sox? At least we can have something to "clinch" at the end of the season. Then we can have our "End of Royce The Choice Era: 2001-2002" collector's clubhouse t-shirt that can be sold on the last day of the season! Hey, it ain't a central division title shirt but at this point...

That's a good idea. Also, anyone from WSI who attends the final Sox home game can sing "Nah, nah, hey, hey, goodbye whenever Royce steps in for his last at bat, assuming he plays that day.

BTW, you may have noticed how the two of us made similar comments to the post about Royce, Manuel, and Valentin. LOL!

FarmerAndy
08-15-2002, 03:11 PM
Has anybody heard the new "Around the Diamond" on ESPN Radio 1000? It pretty much points out that both Royce and Jose should get bent.

It kinda goes like this:

:hitless

Even though the White Sox are paying $4.5 Million of their money, when I play I am just auditioning for other teams. I don't even have to worry about helping the Sox win, they just pay me $4.5 million to show my stuff for other teams. Sweet deal, eh?



:manos

I am not a babysitter. It's not my job to help Willie Harris or Joe Crede. I get payed to play baseball. $5 million big one's for a .235 batting average, I've done my part.




So we have one shortstop who doesn't feel he owes anything to the team that pays his salary , he just thinks he needs to use his time to impress other teams. And we have another shortstop who feels he is only paid to play, and it isn't his job to help the younger players. That's real nice.

hold2dibber
08-15-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Has anybody heard the new "Around the Diamond" on ESPN Radio 1000? It pretty much points out that both Royce and Jose should get bent.

It kinda goes like this:

:hitless

Even though the White Sox are paying $4.5 Million of their money, when I play I am just auditioning for other teams. I don't even have to worry about helping the Sox win, they just pay me $4.5 million to show my stuff for other teams. Sweet deal, eh?



:manos

I am not a babysitter. It's not my job to help Willie Harris or Joe Crede. I get payed to play baseball. $5 million big one's for a .235 batting average, I've done my part.




So we have one shortstop who doesn't feel he owes anything to the team that pays his salary , he just thinks he needs to use his time to impress other teams. And we have another shortstop who feels he is only paid to play, and it isn't his job to help the younger players. That's real nice.

I'm confused - are the radio announcers just offering their opinion that these two have the thoughts/attitudes you attribute to them, or are they using quotes/interview footage in which these guys actually made comments to that effect?

FarmerAndy
08-15-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I'm confused - are the radio announcers just offering their opinion that these two have the thoughts/attitudes you attribute to them, or are they using quotes/interview footage in which these guys actually made comments to that effect?

He was commenting on interview quotes from both of them.

Foulke You
08-15-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


That's a good idea. Also, anyone from WSI who attends the final Sox home game can sing "Nah, nah, hey, hey, goodbye whenever Royce steps in for his last at bat, assuming he plays that day.

BTW, you may have noticed how the two of us made similar comments to the post about Royce, Manuel, and Valentin. LOL!

I noticed that too. I swear I'm not copying though. :D: Assuming they don't strike, I'll bet they will be singing "Hey hey hey good bye" to Royce. Especially late in the game. So long Royce and good riddance.

As far as Valentin's comments on young players go, I think Jose was showing his frustration with the team. The way the team has jerked him around. One minute he's an integral part of a division winning team starting every day at SS, batting 2nd. Then they move him to center field in 2001 and third base in 2001 and 2002. They then drop him to 7th in the lineup this year, cut his playing time, platoon him with Royce and Graffanino so he only faces right handed pitching, and then hears rumors that he endures the whole month of July hearing he is going to be traded to make room for youngster D'angelo Jimenez. The Sun-Times reported that he was so sure he was traded that Jose had a box in the clubhouse "just in case". I can't imagine why Jose would be upset at the Sox organization and not want to help their youngsters so they can dump his salary to another team and make room for the young players?

FarmerAndy
08-15-2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You


As far as Valentin's comments on young players go, I think Jose was showing his frustration with the team. [/COLOR]

I can understand Jose's frustrations, but that doesn't justify those comments.

As far a getting jerked around, both of these guys have been jerked around. It was a dumb move for the Sox to sign their shortstop to a 3 year deal, and then go out and sign another shortstop for two years. No matter which one you like or dislike, you can't blame either one for wanting to play, or being upset when they don't play.

After getting jacked around, Royce has opened his big mouth and said alot of stupid stuff. Jose, for the most part, has played it cool and kept his mouth shut. However, that doen't mean Jose should get a free pass when he does open his mouth and spew crap like that. Royce was ridiculed here everytime he shot his mouth off, and it was well deserved. Jose, and ANY player who spouts off like that, should be given the same ridicule.

Honestly, I was shocked when I heard the comment. Jose's greatest strength has been his positive attitude and leadership skills. I could imagine him being critical of how the Sox have handled him, but not saying crap like that. Helping young players, like Crede and Harris, is part of what makes a player like Valentin a valuable asset, and helps make up for some of his other short-comings. So to hear him say that he's not a baby sitter and that he's just paid to play is inexcusable. I

doublem23
08-15-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Jose, and ANY player who spouts off like that, should be given the same ridicule.

:walnuts
I guess I should be first in line.

RKMeibalane
08-15-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
As far as Valentin's comments on young players go, I think Jose was showing his frustration with the team. The way the team has jerked him around. One minute he's an integral part of a division winning team starting every day at SS, batting 2nd. Then they move him to center field in 2001 and third base in 2001 and 2002. They then drop him to 7th in the lineup this year, cut his playing time, platoon him with Royce and Graffanino so he only faces right handed pitching, and then hears rumors that he endures the whole month of July hearing he is going to be traded to make room for youngster D'angelo Jimenez. The Sun-Times reported that he was so sure he was traded that Jose had a box in the clubhouse "just in case". I can't imagine why Jose would be upset at the Sox organization and not want to help their youngsters so they can dump his salary to another team and make room for the young players?

Valentin has been given the shaft by Sox management. When he was accquired prior to the 2000 season, everyone thought he would be the starting shortstop for the next four seasons. Instead, he has spent the better part of the past two seasons fighting to remain in the lineup.

Royce supporters like to point out that Valentin has a lower batting average than Clayton this season. However, I don't think that would be the case if Jose were given a chance to play everyday.

I don't condone his reluctantance to help Joe Crede, but I do understand it. I don't think Valentin has anything against Crede personally. I think Joe's call-up serves as a reminder that Valentin isn't going to get as much playing time if he has to platoon with Clayton. Manos probably doesn't want to work with Crede because he's afraid his playing time will be reduced even further.

Assuming Clayton is gone after the season, this shouldn't be a problem in 2003. Valentin will be back at shortstop full time, and Crede will be at third. Graffanino will fill in at second, short, and third as needed.

Clayton's departure will go a long way towards solving several prolems the Sox are having on the field and in the clubhouse. I don't think anyone will be sorry when The Choice becomes another team's problem.

hold2dibber
08-15-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

As far a getting jerked around, both of these guys have been jerked around. It was a dumb move for the Sox to sign their shortstop to a 3 year deal, and then go out and sign another shortstop for two years. No matter which one you like or dislike, you can't blame either one for wanting to play, or being upset when they don't play.


Does anyone know what happened first, the Sox re-signing Jose after the 2000 season or the Sox trading to acquire Clayton after the 2000 season?

Paulwny
08-15-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I thought about that, and since you brought it up, I have ask the following quetsion: In the event that Williams is forcing Manuel to start Clayton, what does JM have to lose if he benches The Choice?

If Williams decides to fire Manuel, the Sox are still obligated to pay him for the remainder of his contract (through 2004, I believe). Manuel would still get his money, and he would have more than enough time to look for another job when his contract expired.

An article was posted last week in which JM told a reporter he didn't know that Ritchie had a physical problem or that he'd miss his next start. KW's running part of the show.
JM's mentor, Alou wasn't offered a managerial spot. Not playing ball with a gm could get you black balled, other gm's will think you're uncooperative.

Daver
08-15-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Does anyone know what happened first, the Sox re-signing Jose after the 2000 season or the Sox trading to acquire Clayton after the 2000 season?

Valentin was signed to an extension first.

FarmerAndy
08-15-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Does anyone know what happened first, the Sox re-signing Jose after the 2000 season or the Sox trading to acquire Clayton after the 2000 season?

They had already signed Jose when they went out and signed Clayton.

FarmerAndy
08-15-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Clayton's departure will go a long way towards solving several prolems the Sox are having on the field and in the clubhouse. I don't think anyone will be sorry when The Choice becomes another team's problem.

As long as the same people who got us into this mess are still in charge, we are a long way from solving anything.

doublem23
08-15-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


As long as the same people who got us into this mess are still in charge, we are a long way from solving anything.

I'll agree with that.

:reinsy
Muhahahahahaha