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View Full Version : For the love of God, please no more Beckham batting second


BainesHOF
08-02-2014, 02:24 PM
Last night's lineup was silly with Beckham back in the second spot for no apparent reason. Ramirez or Gillaspie should be there.

It's not like the team's second spot is one of sacrifice that is traditional for the No. 2 spot. Eaton is not a big base stealer so it's not necessary for the No. 2 hitter to take a lot of pitches. And you don't want to take the bat out of Abreu's hands so you don't want the No. 2 hitter to sacrifice bunt either. The job of this team's No. 2 hitter is strictly to get on base for Abreu. That's why Ramirez or Gillaspie should be batting No. 2. It's hard to believe that a Major League manager would bat Beckham No. 2, but that's Ventura for you.

Harry Potter
08-02-2014, 02:47 PM
Cool

TheVulture
08-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Last night's lineup was silly with Beckham back in the second spot for no apparent reason. Ramirez or Gillaspie should be there.

It's not like the team's second spot is one of sacrifice that is traditional for the No. 2 spot. Eaton is not a big base stealer so it's not necessary for the No. 2 hitter to take a lot of pitches. And you don't want to take the bat out of Abreu's hands so you don't want the No. 2 hitter to sacrifice bunt either. The job of this team's No. 2 hitter is strictly to get on base for Abreu. That's why Ramirez or Gillaspie should be batting No. 2. It's hard to believe that a Major League manager would bat Beckham No. 2, but that's Ventura for you.

Apparently Ventura would rather have a guy getting on base 26% of the time than bat lefties consecutively. Gillaspie should be batting 2nd or 5th in this lineup, but there is typically a lefty at 1 and 4, so he bats him sixth. Ridiculous in this lineup of stinkers to have your second best hitter batting sixth.

#1swisher
08-02-2014, 03:14 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuDnst4CMAEGCJB.jpg

MisterB
08-02-2014, 03:29 PM
*moves quietly out of range in case BainesHOF's head explodes*

fram40
08-02-2014, 03:46 PM
*moves quietly out of range in case BainesHOF's head explodes*

It's not just BainesHOF. It seems to be quite a few Sox fans - including me. I have bailed on the idea of Ventura as manager.

Batting Beckham second is just one reason. He just shouldn't be batting second.

PaleHoser
08-02-2014, 04:00 PM
I suppose the logic is that he'll get better pitches to hit with Abreu hitting behind him. What's being overlooked is that Beckham can't seem to do anything with them.

ChiSoxGal85
08-02-2014, 04:02 PM
I agree - put Gillapsie or Alexei 2nd. And I'd prefer Gillapsie, who has been a consistent contact hitter this season. IMHO, there's way too much weight placed on the lefty-right stuff.

LoveYourSuit
08-02-2014, 04:39 PM
What's to expect from a dumb ass manager.

It took this clown 3 plus months to finally permanately stick his best hitter in the 3 hole.

Yesterday blew not challenging a sure botched umpire call at 2B when the Twins SS dropped the ball on the transfer.

JB98
08-02-2014, 05:28 PM
Ramirez had grounded into some DPs hitting in the 2 hole, so that's probably why he was moved down in the lineup. Not saying Beckham belongs there: He doesn't. But Ramirez is more suited to hit sixth than second.

TomBradley72
08-02-2014, 05:49 PM
I'd like to see Sierra get a shot at the 2 hole- very surprised he's not starting tonight-

TDog
08-02-2014, 05:56 PM
Apparently Ventura would rather have a guy getting on base 26% of the time than bat lefties consecutively. Gillaspie should be batting 2nd or 5th in this lineup, but there is typically a lefty at 1 and 4, so he bats him sixth. Ridiculous in this lineup of stinkers to have your second best hitter batting sixth.

On-base percentage, as opposed to batting average, isn't really relevant to a No. 2 hitter hitting ahead of Abreu. A pitcher would have to have acute control problems not to throw strikes with Abreu on deck. Joey Cora, who hit No. 2 ahead of Frank Thomas and, with the Mariners, ahead of Ken Griffey Jr. (although he led off for the Mariners as well), got quite a few walks but also had a tiny strike zone.

Beckham this season has been the best No. 2 hitter the White Sox have had. He was hitting No. 2 when he was hitting well. Semien was leading the majors in strikeouts with an abysmal batting average when he ending his tenure as an everyday player. The only thing he was doing right in the No. 2 role (aside from a few big hits late in games) was see a lot of pitches. Ramirez, who is hitting about .280 all over the lineup is hitting about .280 as a No. 2 hitter. His offensive game isn't about looking at a lot of pitches. He also is tied for Viciedo for the team lead in grounding into double plays. Overall, he has grounded into 17 double plays. Konerko hasn't grounded into more than 17 double plays for a season since 2007. Ramirez has grounded into six double plays in the 14 games he has started batting second this year.

Gillaspie looks like he could be a strong No. 2 hitter, and I have been a Gillaspie fan since before the White Sox traded for him, but he is a left-handed hitter vulnerable to left-handed pitching, especially left-handed relievers. He is hitting better this year against left-handed pitching, but he would be hitting nearly .360 if he hit exclusively against righties. When you build a lineup, one of the considerations is how the opposing team will attack it. Managers alternate right- and left-handed hitters to force opposing managers into bullpen management choices. If you are bringing in a lefty to get out of a jam with Eaton coming up, and I don't think he has a hit against a southpaw reliever all season, you are doing the other manager a favor by hitting Gillaspie behind him. Especially when you have Adam Dunn, in the lineup or on the bench, your objective is to force the other manager to burn through his lefty relievers. That is one of the reasons Gillaspie has been hitting third so much of the season. Gillaspie doesn't get on base as much as Abreu because pitchers pitch around Abreu so much. Abreu has been intentionally walked 11 times this season, the last two times after Ramirez hits. There is no way to tell how many times Abreu was semi-intentionally walked.

If Gillaspie approached being the same hitter against lefties, he would be an ideal No. 2 hitter, especially pulling the ball behind Eaton when he gets on. You need a right-handed hitter in that role, and the only time the Sox have had consistent success in the No. 2 position in the lineup this season is with Beckham there.

Tragg
08-02-2014, 06:33 PM
Alexei was fine at #2. Not as good as Gillaspie, but better than most alternatives.
Somehow, though, Ventura manages to bat his worst hitter 2nd.

TheVulture
08-02-2014, 07:05 PM
On-base percentage, as opposed to batting average, isn't really relevant to a No. 2 hitter hitting ahead of Abreu.

I would have to disagree. Hitting in front of Abreu, OBP is far and away the most important thing. What good is 0 for 5 in front of Abreu?!? We'd be better off with Dunn batting second rather than Beckham.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-02-2014, 07:18 PM
Alexei was fine at #2. Not as good as Gillaspie, but better than most alternatives.
Somehow, though, Ventura manages to bat his worst hitter 2nd.

Who does Robin think he is, Bevington ?

ZombieRob
08-02-2014, 09:18 PM
Hahn deserves to hire his own management team. Robin is just in over his head.

TDog
08-02-2014, 10:49 PM
I would have to disagree. Hitting in front of Abreu, OBP is far and away the most important thing. What good is 0 for 5 in front of Abreu?!? We'd be better off with Dunn batting second rather than Beckham.

A hitter who draws a lot of walks hitting sixth or seventh will draw far fewer walks hitting second if Abreu is hitting third. Where you hit in the order, who is on deck when you hit, affects your on-base percentage.

Dunn wouldn't walk nearly as much if he were hitting in front of Abreu.

Tonight, of course, Beckham had two more hits than Dunn, and neither of them walked.

Mohoney
08-03-2014, 01:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to Beckham not batting anywhere at all, let alone second. Now that the trade deadline has passed, any idea of "showcasing" him is done. Let Semien get the at-bats up here. Beckham can play once or twice a week and come in late as a defensive replacement.

MountainCur
08-03-2014, 08:16 PM
Not saying Bacon should hit second. But Ventura's reasoning in not putting Alexei there has to be the GIDP.

In 62 plate appearances Ramirez has GIDP 5 times while batting second.

Bacon has GIDP 9 times in 276 PA when batting second - a rate well over twice as good as Ramirez's.

It is interesting though that when Gillaspie has bat second he has a 435/462/565 line - with no GIDP.

But that is a mesley 26 PA.

JB98
08-03-2014, 08:39 PM
Not saying Bacon should hit second. But Ventura's reasoning in not putting Alexei there has to be the GIDP.

In 62 plate appearances Ramirez has GIDP 5 times while batting second.

Bacon has GIDP 9 times in 276 PA when batting second - a rate well over twice as good as Ramirez's.

It is interesting though that when Gillaspie has bat second he has a 435/462/565 line - with no GIDP.

But that is a mesley 26 PA.

I would bat Gillaspie in the 2 hole. But then again, I don't care about the lefty-righty stuff all that much, and stacking Eaton and Gillaspie together doesn't bother me. I guarantee that would bother the White Sox braintrust. They believe in that lefty-righty stuff to a fault.

TheVulture
08-03-2014, 09:38 PM
A hitter who draws a lot of walks hitting sixth or seventh will draw far fewer walks hitting second if Abreu is hitting third. Where you hit in the order, who is on deck when you hit, affects your on-base percentage.

Dunn wouldn't walk nearly as much if he were hitting in front of Abreu.

Tonight, of course, Beckham had two more hits than Dunn, and neither of them walked.
You're probably right. Anyone in front of abreu probably wouldn't get on base more than Beckham. If Gillespie batted 2nd he'd probably walk negative times and reach base no more than 26%. In fact, the way I remember it during Frank's tenure the sox employed a dummy to bat second since there's no way anyone batting in front of a hitter like that was going to reach base anyway.

Domeshot17
08-03-2014, 09:42 PM
You're probably right. Anyone in front of abreu probably wouldn't get on base more than Beckham. If Gillespie batted 2nd he'd probably walk negative times and reach base no more than 26%. In fact, the way I remember it during Frank's tenure the sox employed a dummy to bat second since there's no way anyone batting in front of a hitter like that was going to reach base anyway.

haha. I agree completely. The idea that Gordon only gets on base 26% of the time because of Abreu is hysterical. If the argument is for batting average... then What the hell... he is barely above the Mendoza line...

I am not saying the Sox need to go Vegan, but its time to remove Bacon from the menu..

TDog
08-04-2014, 05:06 PM
You're probably right. Anyone in front of abreu probably wouldn't get on base more than Beckham. If Gillespie batted 2nd he'd probably walk negative times and reach base no more than 26%. In fact, the way I remember it during Frank's tenure the sox employed a dummy to bat second since there's no way anyone batting in front of a hitter like that was going to reach base anyway.

You are missing the point. Adam Dunn doesn't walk because he has a small strike zone. He actually has a pretty big strike zone. Historically, he has walked a lot because there is a greater risk of getting hurt if you throw him strikes. Put him in front of Abreu, and he will see more strikes because Abreu presents a bigger threat. What you would be left with for Dunn getting on base would be his batting average and a smattering of walks due to pitchers being wild. There is a chance that batting Dunn in front of Abreu could turn him into a .300 hitter, but it isn't a realistic one. Pitchers would rather pitch to Dunn than Abreu. In the first homestand of the year, Abreu was intentionally walked twice with Dunn hitting behind him.

If you had someone who was identical to Abreu in every way hitting behind Abreu, you would see Abreu getting fewer walks.

SI1020
08-04-2014, 05:37 PM
I agree - put Gillapsie or Alexei 2nd. And I'd prefer Gillapsie, who has been a consistent contact hitter this season. IMHO, there's way too much weight placed on the lefty-right stuff. Thank you. I find that etched in stone rule ever so tiresome.

Maximo
08-04-2014, 06:02 PM
You are missing the point. Adam Dunn doesn't walk because he has a small strike zone. He actually has a pretty big strike zone. Historically, he has walked a lot because there is a greater risk of getting hurt if you throw him strikes. Put him in front of Abreu, and he will see more strikes because Abreu presents a bigger threat. What you would be left with for Dunn getting on base would be his batting average and a smattering of walks due to pitchers being wild. There is a chance that batting Dunn in front of Abreu could turn him into a .300 hitter, but it isn't a realistic one. Pitchers would rather pitch to Dunn than Abreu. In the first homestand of the year, Abreu was intentionally walked twice with Dunn hitting behind him.

If you had someone who was identical to Abreu in every way hitting behind Abreu, you would see Abreu getting fewer walks.

Let's hope that's A. Garcia next year.

34 Inch Stick
08-05-2014, 10:00 AM
The Sox were talking about hitting Garcia second during spring training.

If they were insistent on l-r, would it be foolish to drop Abreu to fourth and bat Gillaspie third? That is a nice first four but I'm not sure I'd want to keep Abreu from batting in the first inning and more often.

#1swisher
08-22-2014, 03:19 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvqdYQlCUAAejEl.jpg