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thomas35forever
07-13-2014, 03:09 PM
I mean, what the hell?

harwar
07-13-2014, 03:13 PM
Well, Danks looked good once again .. it's a shame that no one seems to be able to hold a late inning lead..

captain54
07-13-2014, 03:17 PM
It's amazing how a bad bullpen can completely negate anything positive that occured during the previous innings...

I'd be interested to know where the Sox bullpen rank in leads surrendered in the later innings.. and where they would be in the Central if they were even near average

fuzzy_patters
07-13-2014, 03:18 PM
It doesn't help when you can't score, either. There isn't much margin for error when you only score two runs, and your clean up hitter taking strike three right down the middle in the ninth is inexcusable.

thomas35forever
07-13-2014, 03:22 PM
It's amazing how a bad bullpen can completely negate anything positive that occured during the previous innings...

I'd be interested to know where the Sox bullpen rank in leads surrendered in the later innings.. and where they would be if it ranked even near average
According to MLB.com, we rank last in the AL with a 5.12 ERA in the 8th inning or later and last in close, late games at 4.98.

Noneck
07-13-2014, 03:23 PM
It doesn't help when you can't score, either. There isn't much margin for error when you only score two runs, and your clean up hitter taking strike three right down the middle in the ninth is inexcusable.


How true, there has to be more hitting but after looking at the lineup, I see why there isnt.

JermaineDye05
07-13-2014, 03:28 PM
On a positive note, Abreu continues to get better and better.

Has hit in 26/27 games. With three more hits today, he's raised his average to .292. Since coming off the DL his average has gone up by 32 points!

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but the Sox really have themselves a special hitter.

Dick Allen
07-13-2014, 03:29 PM
It's amazing that, even with all the holes in the lineup, this team would be in the thick of things with just a middle-of-the-road bullpen. :angry:

SI1020
07-13-2014, 03:31 PM
According to MLB.com, we rank last in the AL with a 5.12 ERA in the 8th inning or later and last in close, late games at 4.98. That is horrible.

Noneck
07-13-2014, 03:35 PM
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but the Sox really have themselves a special hitter.

I was just thinking that if Abreu year end stats were what they are now, I would have said the Sox did an outstanding job in signing him.

LITTLE NELL
07-13-2014, 03:47 PM
On a positive note, Abreu continues to get better and better.

Has hit in 26/27 games. With three more hits today, he's raised his average to .292. Since coming off the DL his average has gone up by 32 points!

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but the Sox really have themselves a special hitter.

I just hope he doesn't wind up like Ernie Banks, great career with not one post season appearance.

joegraz
07-13-2014, 04:22 PM
Terry Francona has figured out that when you have a H**** S*** DH like Swisher, it's best batting him further down the lineup. Hey Robin....Great Falls Rookie League called...they'd like you to come down and coach 1st for about 5 years.

ChiSoxGal85
07-13-2014, 04:24 PM
What a pile of poop. Here's your TBGR. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4542) I'll update it later, after voodoo posts the PTC and I'm done being disgusted. :D:

soxfanreggie
07-13-2014, 04:25 PM
On a positive note, Abreu continues to get better and better.

Has hit in 26/27 games. With three more hits today, he's raised his average to .292. Since coming off the DL his average has gone up by 32 points!

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but the Sox really have themselves a special hitter.

With Tanaka facing the potential to be out for a while, he may win the AL ROY. Depending on each player's health, this could be one heck of a race for it.

As far as this game, what a crock of crap. Hopefully our pen takes this All-Star break to regroup and find something for the second half.

captain54
07-13-2014, 04:29 PM
It's amazing that, even with all the holes in the lineup, this team would be in the thick of things with just a middle-of-the-road bullpen. :angry:

Hahn, a month or so ago, eluded to the fact that the bullpen is a work in progress and is experiencing growing pains.. So, then the approach is, throw the season away while conducting on-the-job training..Frustrating to watch..

Soxman219
07-13-2014, 05:18 PM
At least there's many home games coming up, excited to see Abreu for the first time up close on Friday.

veeter
07-13-2014, 05:32 PM
The Gillaspie base running gaffe pisses me off. Not the first time for him. I just think they play dopey under Robin. The pen isn't his fault IMO. Conor got the game off to a crappy start. I'm thinking Robin will be like Savard with the Hawks. Once they're ready to be serious contenders, launch Robin for a manager who can lead them to the next level.

frankie_ventura
07-13-2014, 05:39 PM
Hahn, a month or so ago, eluded to the fact that the bullpen is a work in progress and is experiencing growing pains.. So, then the approach is, throw the season away while conducting on-the-job training..Frustrating to watch..

It is frustrating that Ventura just allows the same mistakes to occur without any consequences. If a reliever fails to get the needed outs, just seems to say "oh well" and puts the reliever back out there. The bullpen by committee approach never works but it seems like he is content to keep doing it. Also, players continuously make the same mistakes (striking out, not taking pitches, fail to move up the runners) and they keep playing.

Ventura seems to be playing the part of Alan Trammel when he was the manager of the Tigers. Management has him there for the fans and the tradition hoping that he can distract the fans from the product on the field. No tough managing is required. Next year, Hahn will have the cash to get a new 2B, LF, C, starting pitching, and bullpen pitching. Hopefully he makes some good moves with those positions and gets a new manager as well to make sure they do the little things to win.

soxfanreggie
07-13-2014, 05:58 PM
It is frustrating that Ventura just allows the same mistakes to occur without any consequences. If a reliever fails to get the needed outs, just seems to say "oh well" and puts the reliever back out there. The bullpen by committee approach never works but it seems like he is content to keep doing it. Also, players continuously make the same mistakes (striking out, not taking pitches, fail to move up the runners) and they keep playing.


Speaking to the bullpen by committee approach: if none of our current pitchers can currently close or be developed to close here quickly, what do you expect the manager to do after the injuries we have had? When you trade away the closer from the year prior and then have injuries to the next two closers, it's hard to blame Ventura for not having a guy in there to go. That's on the GM to make something happen and give the manager someone to use.

I'm not saying that Robin has been a great manager, but I don't look at our present bullpen and say that he's fully responsible for their performance.

amsteel
07-13-2014, 06:03 PM
Just think of it, if the bullpen was average we'd be in the thick of it to go on the road for one playoff game!

frankie_ventura
07-13-2014, 06:31 PM
Speaking to the bullpen by committee approach: if none of our current pitchers can currently close or be developed to close here quickly, what do you expect the manager to do after the injuries we have had? When you trade away the closer from the year prior and then have injuries to the next two closers, it's hard to blame Ventura for not having a guy in there to go. That's on the GM to make something happen and give the manager someone to use.

I'm not saying that Robin has been a great manager, but I don't look at our present bullpen and say that he's fully responsible for their performance.

You are absolutely right, responsibility does fall on management to get more bodies out there. It is frustrating as management is content to hide behind the "we are rebuilding" excuse and not do anything. I would like to see management keep trying. Francisco and Downs did stink so you get rid of them and find more bodies. Heck, give Putz another try. He was DFA'd last week. It is not going to hurt you.

For manager, I would rather see Ventura establish someone as a closer for a couple of weeks and see how they do. If they screw up one time, they will know that they have a couple of more chances. Just like he did for Bellasario. Put Petricka or Putnam or even Webb in there as closer, establish roles for everyone else, see what happens for a few weeks and then make changes if necessary. With that strategy, everyone would at least know their roles for a few weeks and not look over their shoulder every time they screw up. If Guerra for example knows he is the 8th inning guy if they have a lead and can prepare for it. As of right now, no one knows their role.

Bullpen by committee makes everyone in the pen anxious and unsure of their position. I can not think of another team that uses it. The A's, Giants, Angels and Pirates have all gone through multiple closers this year but they do not have a bullpen where everyone is in flux. With his audition, Bellasario was awful so you remove him and try someone else. Make a decision and stick with it for a while. I would hate to see this kind of indecision continue the rest of the year.

captain54
07-13-2014, 06:44 PM
Closer is not the only issue. The BP overall cannot hold a lead in the late innings when the Sox are ahead.

I'm still of the opinion that even with a healthy Jones and Lindstrom, the BP situation was shaky at best. Shame on the ownership/general management for putting such a woefully shaky product on the field

shingo10
07-13-2014, 07:15 PM
Just think of it, if the bullpen was average we'd be in the thick of it to go on the road for one playoff game!


It's so much bull**** when people act like making the playoffs as the second wildcard is just extending the season by a game. Not when you have a Cy Young caliber pitcher and not when you have a monster hitter in the middle of your lineup.

The A's have been the best team the past couple of years and they've been bounced in the divisional round. The Tigers squeaked their way into the playoffs in 2012 (thanks to us choking) and made it to the World Series. Baseball is a funny game and it is not like mediocre teams can't get hot at the right time. The 2006 Cardinals did it.

I find it far from meaningless to "go on the road for one playoff game." Good teams give themselves that chance. With a bullpen it possibly could have been us this year but very unlikely now.

lpneck
07-13-2014, 07:46 PM
Just think of it, if the bullpen was average we'd be in the thick of it to go on the road for one playoff game!

The White Sox have only played in 29 postseason games in the last 64 years, and 12 of them were in one year. They have a postseason record of 4-13 in non-2005 seasons during that time.

I don't think I would dismiss the value of a wild card playoff game to this franchise so easily.

Brian26
07-13-2014, 08:08 PM
I've been a Sox fan since 1981. This might be the worst bullpen I've ever seen in those 33 and a half years.

SCCWS
07-13-2014, 08:11 PM
Closer is not the only issue. The BP overall cannot hold a lead in the late innings when the Sox are ahead.

I'm still of the opinion that even with a healthy Jones and Lindstrom, the BP situation was shaky at best. Shame on the ownership/general management for putting such a woefully shaky product on the field

The product may be shakey but the investmernt wasn't. Lindstrom-Downs-Belisario combined got almost $11 Mil. So you cannot say Hahn ignored the bullpen. You can say he made bad decisions. Combined w his trade of Reed and no replacement and you could say he really screwed it up. But it is not uncommon for buulpens to emplode since consisent bullpen performers do not grow on trees.

Brian26
07-13-2014, 08:14 PM
The White Sox have only played in 29 postseason games in the last 64 years, and 12 of them were in one year. They have a postseason record of 4-13 in non-2005 seasons during that time.

I don't think I would dismiss the value of a wild card playoff game to this franchise so easily.

I understand where you're coming from, but that stat applies equal value to all playoff games in the past 64 years. Sox fans know that the '59 World Series games were more important than the '83 ALCS games, which were more important than the 2000 and 2008 ALDS games, which were more important than the '08 Blackout Game. In hindsight, the Blackout Game was fun and memorable, but sort of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The diluted playoff picture makes it difficult to put any true emphasis on the Wild Card Game. If they won the game and went on to win another series, that would be great. If they lost the game, it would be completely forgotten. Hell, the 2000 ALDS is almost completely forgotten now...as is the 2008 ALDS. They actually beat TB in one game. I bet most Sox fans don't even remember that.

Tragg
07-13-2014, 08:17 PM
The bullpen is bad, the depth is bad, the starting pitching is razor thin (with zero in the minors) and a few positions are bad.
But we have a couple of great players and a couple of real good ones to pull us through to somewhat respectability.

JB98
07-13-2014, 08:18 PM
Closer is not the only issue. The BP overall cannot hold a lead in the late innings when the Sox are ahead.

I'm still of the opinion that even with a healthy Jones and Lindstrom, the BP situation was shaky at best. Shame on the ownership/general management for putting such a woefully shaky product on the field

Well, this is a 75-win team. In fact, the Sox are on pace for 76 wins right now, and that would be a 13-game improvement over last year. That's significant.

I'm sure you'll counter and say that's not good enough, but don't you think the front office knows that? Given the problems that existed in 2013, it wasn't realistic to think they could fix them all in one offseason. They fixed 1B and they fixed leadoff hitter and CF. That's a start. They might have fixed RF, too, but too bad Garcia got hurt. They have one great starting pitcher and two decent-to-good starting pitchers in place, too.

You are correct that thinking Jones or Lindstrom could close was a dubious proposition at best, but what sense would it have made for them to go out and spend millions on relief pitching?

At least management was smart enough to cut its losses on dead weight such as Keppinger and Downs. I know the prevailing theme is that the Sox are cheap and stupid, but at least we've seen progress in them not keeping horse**** players on the roster just for financial purposes.

Brian26
07-13-2014, 08:19 PM
The product may be shakey but the investmernt wasn't. Lindstrom-Downs-Belisario combined got almost $11 Mil. So you cannot say Hahn ignored the bullpen. You can say he made bad decisions. Combined w his trade of Reed and no replacement and you could say he really screwed it up. But it is not uncommon for buulpens to emplode since consisent bullpen performers do not grow on trees.

It's tough to blame Hahn. They picked Sergio Santos off the scrap heap and made him a successful closer. Sale came up and was ready to be lights out at closer. They groomed Santiago and Jones to close for awhile. Reed took over with much success. They knew Webb was coming up. For the last five years, it's looked like our farm system has been growing closers on trees. Everyone they've tried has been at least moderately successful. You could even argue Santiago could have stayed in that role, but they sort of needed him to come in and fill the 5th starter position.

It's just terrible luck that they trade the best closer they've had in awhile, and the team gets crushed with injuries and **** performances out of the pen.

TDog
07-13-2014, 08:22 PM
I just hope he doesn't wind up like Ernie Banks, great career with not one post season appearance.

Jose Abreu has played 82 major league games. Ernie Banks played in 2,528. It's a bit pessimistic to be concerned that Abreu will never get to a postseason. And, really, I would be disappointed to see Abreu play for another team just to get in the postseason. That isn't pessimism, just a what-if scenario.

Fun fact, if barely off topic: Ernie Banks, one of the great power hitters of his time hit one home run for every 4.9 games he played in his major league career. Jose Abreu has hit one home run for every 2.8 games. That also is an unfair comparison.

What impresses me about Abreu almost as much as the home runs is that his rising batting average seems to show that he is improving as an all-around hitter while continuing to hit home runs.

Brian26
07-13-2014, 08:30 PM
Abreu has now hit in 26 of the last 27 games.

Longest hitting streak ever - CLee 2004 w/ 28.

We'll never know, but you wonder if Abreu could have gotten a hit off that weak Seattle bullpen last weekend.

chisoxfanatic
07-13-2014, 08:51 PM
I've been a Sox fan since 1981. This might be the worst bullpen I've ever seen in those 33 and a half years.
I could probably say the same. The bullpen really is the only major aspect of the game that has never seemed to get it together, yet they are such a crucial aspect of the game. This team would've been no less than right up there with Detroit if it weren't for the bullpen. I was hoping Hawk would've lid into the bullpen a little more at the end of today's broadcast.

TDog
07-13-2014, 08:58 PM
It's tough to blame Hahn. They picked Sergio Santos off the scrap heap and made him a successful closer. Sale came up and was ready to be lights out at closer. They groomed Santiago and Jones to close for awhile. Reed took over with much success. They knew Webb was coming up. For the last five years, it's looked like our farm system has been growing closers on trees. Everyone they've tried has been at least moderately successful. You could even argue Santiago could have stayed in that role, but they sort of needed him to come in and fill the 5th starter position.

It's just terrible luck that they trade the best closer they've had in awhile, and the team gets crushed with injuries and **** performances out of the pen.

I think the bullpen in 1977 was worse and was one of the reasons the season was so frustrating. Some Sox fans will tell you that it's silly to lament Reed's loss because he has 5 blown saves. He also has 21 saves. The White Sox this season have 5 more wins than the Diamondbacks but as a team only have 19 saves.

If you take the two fulltime closers who were labeled closers for the longest out of the White Sox bullpen, Belisario has 8 saves and 4 blown saves. Lindstrom has 6 saves with 3 blown saves. Both had only a 2-1 ratio of saves to blown saves, although I would have to look it up to see if all of those failed save opportunities were closing out the last inning. If you include saves blown by Sox relievers in the eighth, it feels like the Sox have had weeks with five blown saves.

Still, I didn't read anyone who suggested the Sox needed to improve their bullpen over the offseason. What I mostly read was that the bullpen wouldn't be a concern because the Sox wouldn't be contending in enough games for the bullpen, particularly a closer, to make a difference.

And the fact is, if you didn't see the Sox contending this year, you really shouldn't care if they lose games in the bullpen. Bullpens are ephemeral things. Rarely anymore do great bullpens stay great with the same pitchers for very long. The 2005 White Sox bullpen was very, very good. The same pitchers were not nearly as good in 2006. Damaso Marte wasn't especially good in 2005, but over his career, he had been great out of the bullpen until he wasn't very good. Look at what's happened to Sergio Santos since the Sox traded him.

If you are building a team for the future in the 21st century, the bullpen isn't where you start. It can be the quickest to fix and it is the aspect most likely to fall apart and perform below expectations. That is part of what leads so many teams who lose a lot of close games one year to win so many close games the next year, and vice versa.

The bullpen problems are frustrating, but not as frustrating as they would be if I had been planning a baseball vacation in Chicago this October.

kittle42
07-13-2014, 09:34 PM
Some Sox fans will tell you that it's silly to lament Reed's loss because he has 5 blown saves. He also has 21 saves.

That is such an incomplete analysis of Reed's performance this season. I know you have zero belief in peripherals at all, but maybe you haven't watched him, either. I have. He has been pretty terrible and is only still the D-backs closer because the in-house options are basically junk and they are basically eliminated from contention already. Regardless, Ziegler will have the job in the next month, I would bet.

The bullpen problems are frustrating, but not as frustrating as they would be if I had been planning a baseball vacation in Chicago this October.

Right - we knew the deal ahead of time. If anyone was planning a baseball vacation in Chicago in October before this season started, they are some of the stupidest people in the country, and that is saying a lot.

wxkid23
07-13-2014, 09:42 PM
According to MLB.com, we rank last in the AL with a 5.12 ERA in the 8th inning or later and last in close, late games at 4.98.

I've been looking for a stat to really explain to others the problems we are having. This really sums it up

kittle42
07-13-2014, 09:50 PM
Just watched the Gillaspie play. He's a moron, and Ventura-managed teams have done this **** for a while now. I am happy to see the Ventura sentiment here turning negative lately. It is well-deserved.

doublem23
07-13-2014, 10:18 PM
Some Sox fans will tell you that it's silly to lament Reed's loss because he has 5 blown saves.


That's roughly an 80% save rate which is terrible for a closer. That's a BS once in every 5 save attempts.

thomas35forever
07-13-2014, 10:25 PM
I've been looking for a stat to really explain to others the problems we are having. This really sums it up
These numbers have been updated and are now a respective 5.19 and 5.07. No lead feels safe with this group these days.

slavko
07-13-2014, 10:41 PM
Just watched the Gillaspie play. He's a moron, and Ventura-managed teams have done this **** for a while now. I am happy to see the Ventura sentiment here turning negative lately. It is well-deserved.

It's one dumb play. One dumb play with a first base coach right in front of his eyeballs doing nothing to accelerate his base runner until it was too late. Lets not go to the nuclear option about it. I want Conor on the Sox.

TDog
07-13-2014, 11:20 PM
That's roughly an 80% save rate which is terrible for a closer. That's a BS once in every 5 save attempts.

Lindstrom and Belisario were each 67 percent. Nathan is worse than Reed because he has 19 saves with 5 blown saves. That is still much better than White Sox closers this season. Sergio Romo of the Giants, who saved a deciding game of a World Series, has 22 saves and 5 blown saves.

Of course, that's terrible for a closer. Most teams have save-blown save ratios that are terrible. And they are still appreciably better than the White Sox. Just about any closer you ride hard is going to fail you eventually. Even Rich Gossage's most memorable moment in Chicago, home of the team that developed him, involves Robin Ventura and not getting the final out. Jason Grilli had 33 saves for the Pirates last year, and this year they shipped him out of town after he saved just 11 games while blowing 4, which would still be an improvement over Belisario.

There are very few closer who can live up to closing with continual success. If the White Sox had one this year, he probably wouldn't be as effective next year. Everyone raved about Andrew Bailey and how he "missed bats," but the Red Sox would be a better team today if they had missed the buzz around him. Just because closers put up great numbers in a year or even a partial year while pitching only a relatively few number of innings does not make them Gossage. If they do it before the All-Star break, you can't even be sure they will be able to do it in August and September.

TDog
07-13-2014, 11:27 PM
It's one dumb play. One dumb play with a first base coach right in front of his eyeballs doing nothing to accelerate his base runner until it was too late. Lets not go to the nuclear option about it. I want Conor on the Sox.

It wasn't really a dumb play. It was an incredible throw that is rarely even attempted. Gillaspie has his back to the play running to the base. It's the coach's responsibility to get him back get him back to the base quicker.

Tragg
07-13-2014, 11:54 PM
Good gracious it was worth the risk to trade an average closer for a top 3B prospect.
I also think it's worth the risk to trade a good, not great, SS for good prospects......

tstrike2000
07-14-2014, 12:26 AM
i've been a sox fan since 1981. This might be the worst bullpen i've ever seen in those 33 and a half years.

+1

tstrike2000
07-14-2014, 12:35 AM
Just watched the Gillaspie play. He's a moron, and Ventura-managed teams have done this **** for a while now. I am happy to see the Ventura sentiment here turning negative lately. It is well-deserved.

Which means he'll be kept here 10 more years.

TomBradley72
07-14-2014, 07:49 AM
No doubt the bullpen has sucked- but the offense over the past month (30 days) has been killing us:

Leury Garcia (.138)
Tyler Flowers (.138 w/.316 OPS)
Gordon Beckham (.146 w/.521 OPS)
Ramirez (.212 w/.546 OPS)
Viciedo (.223 w/.703 OPS)
Dunn (.192 w/.714 OPS)
A horse**** bullpen with 5/9 every day starters (3/9 under .200) not producing will put any manager in a tough position-

The good news? None of these guys is part of the rebuilding plan-

kittle42
07-14-2014, 09:35 AM
It's one dumb play. One dumb play with a first base coach right in front of his eyeballs doing nothing to accelerate his base runner until it was too late. Lets not go to the nuclear option about it. I want Conor on the Sox.

OK, I could have said "It's a moronic play." Nowhere did I mean to imply that Gillaspie sucks or that I want him off the team.

ChiSoxGal85
07-14-2014, 09:46 AM
OK, I could have said "It's a moronic play." Nowhere did I mean to imply that Gillaspie sucks or that I want him off the team.
I agree. It was stupid and I don't know what Gillapsie was thinking, except that he may have thought the ball was going to drop fair. It was pretty close to the line when the catch was made. He also slipped when he turned back to first...but what was Boston doing on that play?

Gillapsie has had his fielding issues, but on this team his bat has been pretty valuable this season. If he's turned a corner, I want him on the team.

Chez
07-14-2014, 11:39 AM
If we would have won that game in Boston last Wednesday and in Cleveland yesterday, we'd all be fired up and happy. I need an All-Star break!

harwar
07-14-2014, 11:59 AM
What impresses me about Abreu almost as much as the home runs is that his rising batting average seems to show that he is improving as an all-around hitter while continuing to hit home runs.


He's showing that he's a smart enough hitter, to not only make adjustments from game to game, but pitch to pitch .. and it was also interesting to see him change his approach, and swing, yesterday to just make light contact going the other way .. i imagine that he could be a perennial .333 or above, hitter if he didn't mind losing those amazing power numbers .. but i suppose that he is just so strong that those line drives will leave the yard .. he's a great natural hitter who seems to have a high baseball IQ .. one wonders just how far this man may go..

TDog
07-14-2014, 12:13 PM
Good gracious it was worth the risk to trade an average closer for a top 3B prospect.
I also think it's worth the risk to trade a good, not great, SS for good prospects......

Of course it was worth the risk to trade a closer, even if he was just an average closer by current MLB standards, for a third-base prospect, even if he is looking a lot more suspect at Charlotte than he did when I was impressed with him in the Pacific Coast League. Going back to last offseason, I still would have made that trade even though I am wondering if Davidson will develop into a good major league hitter.

But if you have no problem with trading an average closer for a prospect because it's about building for the future, you can't really complain about the Sox not having a closer who is saving at least four of five opportunities. That would be like trading your shortstop and then complaining that you don't have a shortstop.

I don't think the Sox will trade Ramirez, though. I believed in the offseason that Ramirez would be important to have on the team for the sake of Abreu, and I still believe that. Also, one of the holes in the White Sox during the last couple of years has been a quality backup shortstop that could spell Ramirez occasionally. I think overall Ramirez means more to the Sox this year and next than what the Sox would get for him in trade.

joegraz
07-14-2014, 01:41 PM
It's one dumb play. One dumb play with a first base coach right in front of his eyeballs doing nothing to accelerate his base runner until it was too late. Lets not go to the nuclear option about it. I want Conor on the Sox.

I'm with you....Conor has won me over. But is this ineptitude on the Darryl Boston's part? I haven't observed him too closely, so I am not sayin'...but is it possible the best (only) qualification when applying for a job with the WS is to be an ex-WS? Reduces the available talent pool significantly.

Crestani
07-14-2014, 02:04 PM
Just watched the Gillaspie play. He's a moron, and Ventura-managed teams have done this **** for a while now. I am happy to see the Ventura sentiment here turning negative lately. It is well-deserved.


What the hell is Daryl Boston doing..?? He is watching the play right in front of him and he doesn't yell at Gillaspie to hustle..??

I don't recall anyone getting on Boston for all his gaffe's this year with the terrible plays right in front of him..!!

kittle42
07-14-2014, 02:11 PM
I don't recall anyone getting on Boston for all his gaffe's this year with the terrible plays right in front of him..!!

I think the 1B coaches are easily forgettable, but I agree with you.

Foulke You
07-14-2014, 02:13 PM
I've been a Sox fan since 1981. This might be the worst bullpen I've ever seen in those 33 and a half years.
So far, this bullpen certainly ranks up there but I think collectively, the 2007 bullpen was worse than 2014. The '07 squad did get a nice season out of Bobby Jenks but just about every other arm they had in the setup and middle relief roles were beyond horrendous. Mike MacDougal, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco, Dewon Day, Boone Logan, Ryan Bukvich, Bret Prinz, and the ghost of Mike Myers were all so mind numbingly bad and were a huge reason why we lost 90 games that year along with all the injuries to position players.

amsteel
07-14-2014, 03:14 PM
So far, this bullpen certainly ranks up there but I think collectively, the 2007 bullpen was worse than 2014. The '07 squad did get a nice season out of Bobby Jenks but just about every other arm they had in the setup and middle relief roles were beyond horrendous. Mike MacDougal, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco, Dewon Day, Boone Logan, Ryan Bukvich, Bret Prinz, and the ghost of Mike Myers were all so mind numbingly bad and were a huge reason why we lost 90 games that year along with all the injuries to position players.

SURVEY SAYS:
Depending on you preferred measure of pitching performance you could make an argument for either 2007 or 2014 being the worse of the 2 bullpens. However 1987 and 1995 were much worse than either 2014 or 2007.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2014&month=0&season1=1980&ind=1&team=4,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d

Tragg
07-14-2014, 04:29 PM
I don't think the Sox will trade Ramirez, though. I believed in the offseason that Ramirez would be important to have on the team for the sake of Abreu, and I still believe that. Also, one of the holes in the White Sox during the last couple of years has been a quality backup shortstop that could spell Ramirez occasionally. I think overall Ramirez means more to the Sox this year and next than what the Sox would get for him in trade.

I don't think they will either. Partially because of Abreu, perhaps (he's a big boy, though and that shouldn't be a consideration; Sox are too sentimental an organization anyway). Partially because the Sox frequently wait too late to trade. And I also sense that the Sox still have that tendency to try to patch and thus might grab a few veterans this offseason and try to put out a marginal contender (81-85 win team) out there for next year, that will only be an injury or 2 or a bad year or 2 away from floundering.

SI1020
07-14-2014, 04:48 PM
I don't think they will either. Partially because of Abreu, perhaps (he's a big boy, though and that shouldn't be a consideration; Sox are too sentimental an organization anyway). Partially because the Sox frequently wait too late to trade. And I also sense that the Sox still have that tendency to try to patch and thus might grab a few veterans this offseason and try to put out a marginal contender (81-85 win team) out there for next year, that will only be an injury or 2 or a bad year or 2 away from floundering. That does seem to be their modus operandi doesn't it? I was hoping for different from Hahn and I'm OK with his so far, but I guess we'll just have to see what happens in the next year or two.

Tragg
07-14-2014, 04:59 PM
That does seem to be their modus operandi doesn't it? I was hoping for different from Hahn and I'm OK with his so far, but I guess we'll just have to see what happens in the next year or two.

I don't think it's all up to Hahn. He's tempered by Williams and JR who want to see a competitive team soon. I don't mind a few offseason Free Agent patches - I think it's actually a good idea (especially if they don't get a QA). What I don't want at this time are trades of prospects for patches when the injuries/bad seasons inevitably occur.
And I think we just have to trade off veterans who aren't that great when they still have value (like Alexei).

TDog
07-14-2014, 05:11 PM
I don't think they will either. Partially because of Abreu, perhaps (he's a big boy, though and that shouldn't be a consideration; Sox are too sentimental an organization anyway). Partially because the Sox frequently wait too late to trade. And I also sense that the Sox still have that tendency to try to patch and thus might grab a few veterans this offseason and try to put out a marginal contender (81-85 win team) out there for next year, that will only be an injury or 2 or a bad year or 2 away from floundering.

I think part of the reason Abreu is having such a good start to his career is his comfort on the team, which I think has a lot to do with Ramirez. I don't know if he would have signed with the Sox if not for the presence of Ramirez. The Sox could trade Ramirez and tell Abreu to suck it up, but that seems an unnecessary adjustment to request. In the meantime, Ramirez is enjoying the best season of his career, and part of that may be the presence of Abreu. Ramirez's more recent slump is likely because he's been overplayed because the Sox don't have, haven't for awhile, a dependable backup shortstop.

Trade Ramirez, and you are going to see a substantial drop in White Sox shortstop play, offensively and defensively, perhaps for a couple of years absent a move to bring someone else into the organization.

If there was as much out there for Ramirez a month ago as some seemed to believe there could be, I think the Sox very well could have traded him. I don't think there was ever a trade for Ramirez out there that would bring in more than Ramirez is worth to them for the next couple of years.

Noneck
07-14-2014, 05:25 PM
I think part of the reason Abreu is having such a good start to his career is his comfort on the team, which I think has a lot to do with Ramirez. I don't know if he would have signed with the Sox if not for the presence of Ramirez. The Sox could trade Ramirez and tell Abreu to suck it up, but that seems an unnecessary adjustment to request.


Is this something you know for a fact or are speculating? If speculating the opposite can be true also. How many kids go away to college with a kid from their high school and after the 1st semester dont even talk to the kid anymore? It happens a lot, this could be the same unless you have inside info.

TDog
07-14-2014, 09:04 PM
Is this something you know for a fact or are speculating? If speculating the opposite can be true also. How many kids go away to college with a kid from their high school and after the 1st semester dont even talk to the kid anymore? It happens a lot, this could be the same unless you have inside info.

My post was based on what I've read. Different sources, but all very consistent. When I saw Abreu at the Sox mini-camp in Glendale in January, he wasn't hanging out with Ramirez, so maybe everything I read was bogus.

kittle42
07-14-2014, 09:14 PM
When I saw Abreu at the Sox mini-camp in Glendale in January, he wasn't hanging out with Ramirez, so maybe everything I read was bogus.

Not much of a sample size, there, to either support or refute your position.

Foulke You
07-15-2014, 10:55 AM
SURVEY SAYS:
Depending on you preferred measure of pitching performance you could make an argument for either 2007 or 2014 being the worse of the 2 bullpens. However 1987 and 1995 were much worse than either 2014 or 2007.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2014&month=0&season1=1980&ind=1&team=4,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d
Interesting. I didn't realize 1995's pen stuck out that much as being terrible. I associate that season more with John Kruk, Chris Sabo, and Gene Lamont's firing. It might be fun to check the bullpen stats again at the end of 2014 to see where it stacks up in recent bullpen history. The book is still being written on this year's pen. They have a lot of room to improve or...(gulp)...get worse! :o:

TDog
07-15-2014, 11:02 AM
Not much of a sample size, there, to either support or refute your position.

You are right. The mini-camp consisted of coaches working with some younger White Sox players on hitting and defensive skills for a few days in January. Abreu was among them. I was told he volunteered to come. The fact that Ramirez didn't come to the training facility to hang out with him that week is too small a sample size to indicate anything about their relationship.