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View Full Version : *Official* 7/10 Sox get Ventura'd Official Postgame Thread


CoopaLoop
07-10-2014, 06:32 PM
Taking the bat out of Abreu's hands in extra innings.

Intentional walking a guy hitting .128.

Clownshoes Managing.


Edit: that's right it's double Official!

thomas35forever
07-10-2014, 06:33 PM
Somehow, I knew Gillaspie's home run was merely delaying the inevitable.:(:

cv sox fan
07-10-2014, 06:37 PM
worst bullpen and manager in baseball! just bleeping pathetic

SoxSpeed22
07-10-2014, 06:40 PM
Beckham has been hitting .200 since the start of June and .091 in July, yet they keep putting him out there in the 2 spot. Unfortunately, it's not like they have anybody else out there. Nice job fighting back at least.

JermaineDye05
07-10-2014, 06:43 PM
Dumb managing all around. THREE pitchers used in the 9th inning when your best hope is to go into extra innings.

Bat taken out of Abreu's hands because you have the wrong guy batting 2nd and therefore you have to force him to bunt.

Intentionally walking Stephen Drew in the 10th. I realize you want to set up the double play, but as bad as this bullpen is, you should never be putting anyone on intentionally unless absolutely necessary.

Noneck
07-10-2014, 06:48 PM
They lose the two games against a crap team with their best pitchers who pitched well. I'd like to say its time to back up the truck but the truck is empty.

LITTLE NELL
07-10-2014, 06:53 PM
They lose the two games against a crap team with their best pitchers who pitched well. I'd like to say its time to back up the truck but the truck is empty.

I think it's time to move Beckham, the guy just has never figured it out. 3Ks today, your #2 hitter can't be striking out 3 times a game. Don't know what we get for him but it's time to give Semien or Johnson a shot.

Noneck
07-10-2014, 06:57 PM
I think it's time to move Beckham, the guy just has never figured it out. Don't know what we get for him but it's to give Semien or Johnson a shot.


I agree a dozen po-dos (do they still make them?) would suffice as a return.

LITTLE NELL
07-10-2014, 07:00 PM
I agree a dozen po-dos (do they still make them?) would suffice as a return.

I don't think they make Po-Dos anymore, we will have to settle for some used Top Flites.

Soxman219
07-10-2014, 07:00 PM
Reds SS Brandon Phillips will be out for a while, I think it's time to call Cincy for a trade. I'm ready to see Johnson.

Golden Sox
07-10-2014, 07:11 PM
Steve Stone pointed out that Beckham isn't going to bunt because you don't want to take the bat out of Abreu hands. Sure enough, Beckham bunted and the Red Sox walked Abreu. I don't see how anybody can justify what happened there. Ventura should get a kick in his ass for doing that.

Noneck
07-10-2014, 07:16 PM
Steve Stone pointed out that Beckham isn't going to bunt because you don't want to take the bat out of Abreu hands. Sure enough, Beckham bunted and the Red Sox walked Abreu. I don't see how anybody can justify what happened there. Ventura should get a kick in his ass for doing that.


What else can beckham do in that situation, another strikeout? Its a tough situation having a guy like that batting ahead of Abreu.

SOXBOY
07-10-2014, 07:18 PM
Ventura keeps showing he has no clue for managing the bullpen and late game situations. Pretty frustrating having your two best pitchers keep getting no decisions due the pen and manager after pitching their tails off.

TDog
07-10-2014, 07:30 PM
They lose the two games against a crap team with their best pitchers who pitched well. I'd like to say its time to back up the truck but the truck is empty.

Quintana might have pitched well, but he was outpitched by Lester and should have been the losing pitcher in regulation. Quintana might have won the game if he hadn't walked the leadoff man in the sixth, and maybe some, not me, will blame the umpires for that (and I suppose blame the umpires for not putting Konerko on in front of pinch-hitter Gillaspie in the ninth on a 3-0 pitch above the strike zone), but Quintana let a hitter who didn't seem to have a chance to hit him reach base after retiring the first 15 hitters.

That puts him in the stretch for the first time. He walks the No. 8 hitter, again on a close pitch, but without a runner on first, he is pitching out of the windup. If he challenges the first hitter to get him out, he can challenge the second hitter. The walk changes everything. The second walk probably doesn't happen without the first. The first hit isn't hit well, but it's set up with the situation and deep in the count.

The sixth and the 10th were the only innings in which a Red Sox hitter reached base. I'm not suggesting the Red Sox would have been no-hit today had Quintana not walked the first hitter in the sixth, but no matter what Quintana did the rest of the late afternoon, he pitched poorly in the sixth inning, and that is the biggest reason the Sox lost today. It wasn't a question of taking him out. It wasn't even a question of intentionally walking Ortiz with first base open and two outs because then he has to face Napoli with the bases loaded and his control in question.

Lester pitched out of more trouble. It wasn't huge trouble, but he didn't drop off dramatically when he had to pitch out of the stretch.

I thought the Sox were going to have to win this game in the 10th if they were going to win it in extra innings. And they needed to get Eaton into scoring position. There was a good chance the Red Sox were going to walk Abreu, but if you're playing percentages, the White Sox have a better chance of scoring with Viciedo up with one out and runner on first and second than they did with Abreu up with one out and a runner on first, even if it is the runner who Abreu drove in from first in the first against a different pitcher (and a bit of a misplay in left). They also have a better chance of scoring multiple runs, which is what would be ideal for the White Sox and makes intentionally walking Abreu a gamble for the Red Sox. Abreu had struck out in his previous at bat against a breaking ball, and breaking balls was all Miller could seem to get over the plate. As it turned out, a superior defensive play prevented Ramirez from coming up with the bases loaded and one out.

The game wasn't lost in the dugout. The game was lost on the field. The game wasn't decided in the sixth, but that's where the White Sox, Quintana mostly, let this game get away.

Maybe if Abreu was batting fourth today, the Sox would have scored multiple runs n the 10th, Belisario would have been relieved, the end of the game being in sight, and all of this would be moot.

SCCWS
07-10-2014, 07:34 PM
Ventura keeps showing he has no clue for managing the bullpen and late game situations. Pretty frustrating having your two best pitchers keep getting no decisions due the pen and manager after pitching their tails off.

I love Q but he walked 2 straight .150 hitters to start the 6th. He was lucky he didn't get a loss the way lester was pitching.

Golden Sox
07-10-2014, 08:11 PM
I want the best hitter on the team batting that inning. Let Beckham swingaway and hope for the best. I want Abreu batting that inning, not being intentionally walked.

DrCrawdad
07-10-2014, 08:18 PM
Sox 0-10 today with RISP.

tstrike2000
07-10-2014, 08:24 PM
They are who we thought they were, and we let 'em off the hook!!

TDog
07-10-2014, 09:36 PM
I want the best hitter on the team batting that inning. Let Beckham swingaway and hope for the best. I want Abreu batting that inning, not being intentionally walked.

And your chances of scoring the go-ahead run in extra innings are diminished.

slavko
07-10-2014, 09:53 PM
And your chances of scoring the go-ahead run in extra innings are diminished.

You're fighting against the argument that Beckham striking out was the desired outcome. Because with any other outcome, they pitch around Abreu or IBB him. And in the eyes of the WSI jury, it's not important that the successful bunt vs. the K diminishes the chances of scoring.

Hitters that can't hit, a bullpen that can't pitch, of course it's the dugout's fault.

Irishsox1
07-10-2014, 10:58 PM
The way Ventura keeps managing I know he won't be back next year. This years team is good enough to make one of the wild cards but it won't happen.

CoopaLoop
07-11-2014, 12:12 AM
I thought the Sox were going to have to win this game in the 10th if they were going to win it in extra innings. And they needed to get Eaton into scoring position. There was a good chance the Red Sox were going to walk Abreu, but if you're playing percentages, the White Sox have a better chance of scoring with Viciedo up with one out and runner on first and second than they did with Abreu up with one out and a runner on first, even if it is the runner who Abreu drove in from first in the first against a different pitcher (and a bit of a misplay in left). They also have a better chance of scoring multiple runs, which is what would be ideal for the White Sox and makes intentionally walking Abreu a gamble for the Red Sox. Abreu had struck out in his previous at bat against a breaking ball, and breaking balls was all Miller could seem to get over the plate. As it turned out, a superior defensive play prevented Ramirez from coming up with the bases loaded and one out.



It's been statistically proven bunting a guy from first to second reduces your odds of scoring.

When you add on the context that you are taking the bat out of your best hitter (by a wide margin) it's just asinine managing.

BainesHOF
07-11-2014, 12:21 AM
Three legitimate all-stars including one who's having an historic season, but the team is still a joke. There's a black cloud hanging above the club and it's Ventura.

Mohoney
07-11-2014, 12:25 AM
The way Ventura keeps managing I know he won't be back next year. This years team is good enough to make one of the wild cards but it won't happen.

There are offensive liabilities at catcher, second base, two outfield spots, and DH. The pitching staff is 25th in the majors in ERA, 28th in WHIP, 27th in strikeouts, and leading major league baseball in walks allowed. The defense is laughable, too, ranking 26th in fielding percentage and errors committed.

This team is nowhere near good enough this year to be playing postseason baseball.

RCWHITESOX
07-11-2014, 12:43 AM
There are offensive liabilities at catcher, second base, two outfield spots, and DH. The pitching staff is 25th in the majors in ERA, 28th in WHIP, 27th in strikeouts, and leading major league baseball in walks allowed. The defense is laughable, too, ranking 26th in fielding percentage and errors committed.

This team is nowhere near good enough this year to be playing postseason baseball.

That pretty much sums it up the year so far. Sad but all so true.

kobo
07-11-2014, 07:36 AM
The way Ventura keeps managing I know he won't be back next year. This years team is good enough to make one of the wild cards but it won't happen.
They most definitely are not. This is not a good team. If they finish .500 this year I will be surprised. But given the injuries, the unreliable bullpen, the fact Beckham and Flowers are everyday players I don't see how anyone thinks this is a team that win one of the wild card spots. They really are not that good.

amsteel
07-11-2014, 08:00 AM
Also, I'm not sure how much I like the decision to give Konerko one of his spot starts against the ace of Boston's staff.

I get it that Robin's married to the platoon, but still, maybe don't throw him out there cold against a #1 starter.

hawkjt
07-11-2014, 11:04 AM
Also, I'm not sure how much I like the decision to give Konerko one of his spot starts against the ace of Boston's staff.

I get it that Robin's married to the platoon, but still, maybe don't throw him out there cold against a #1 starter.


PK has been swinging well of late, and Dunn had no shot vs Lester with that curveball....c'mon...hindsight like this is too easy.

Quintana was sharp, right until he walked that guy...he actually has more trouble walking lefties, with his arm angle.
The ump screwed him on the second walk...if he gets that strikeout, game is different.
Jose has struggled out of the stretch his whole career...loses his rythmn when he cannot do his full windup ''hitch''...but cannot bag on him, as he has been great for awhile.

Not walking Popi was a big mistake, but every manager can be dissected every game...especially losses.

I did note that yesterday in his weekly interview on the Score, Coop actually deflected the questions about taking Sale out the nite before saying it was Robins call...and he sounded like he was not on board with it.

As they say, success has a thousand parents, while failue is an orphan.

TDog
07-11-2014, 01:31 PM
It's been statistically proven bunting a guy from first to second reduces your odds of scoring.

When you add on the context that you are taking the bat out of your best hitter (by a wide margin) it's just asinine managing.

If you want to talk about statistics, it is statistically proven that your chances of scoring a run are better with runners on first and second and 1 out than they are with a runner on first and one out. If the Red Sox had been playing the percentages, they would have pitched to Abreu because they increased the White Sox chances of scoring by walking him. Your chances of scoring multiple runs in an inning are greater with men on first and second with one out than they are with a man on first and one out.

The sacrifice bunt is preferred statistically over any kind of out that doesn't advance the runner. If Beckham makes an out without advancing the runner, the chances of scoring are not as good as they would be with a runner on second and one out. The statistics that label the sacrifice bunt asinine do not take into consideration the percentages of Beckham not making an out. The percentages you are looking at lump all sacrifice situations together. They are out of context.

Quintana let the game get away from him. That is the reason the White Sox lost. Ventura didn't make a mistake by leaving him in too long. He had retired the first 15 hitters, relatively efficiently before walking two at the bottom of the order that set up the three-run rally. It could have been worse if Quintana, with his control issues out of the stretch, had faced Napoli with the bases loaded and the game tied. Ventura sent up Gillaspie to pinch-hit when many were probably questioning why he wasn't pinch-hitting Dunn, and that decision sent the game to the 10th.

Take all the percentages into consideration, sacrificing Beckham is the percentage move to make. The move was unpopular, but I have to respect a manager who makes unpopular moves in an effort to win games rather than playing the CYA game with the fans and media.

TomBradley72
07-11-2014, 01:38 PM
All this Ventura bashing is a joke- yes he's made some mistakes- but the 2014 White Sox have at least 3 every day starters with ZERO trade value (De Aza, Flowers and Dunn) and 2 more with very little trade value (Beckham(maybe TOR) and Viciedo(maybe SEA))- when 5/9th's of your starters suck- that's a roster issue, not the manager's fault.

For our pitching- 2/5ths of the starting rotation is scrap heap stuff (Noesi (showing some promise) and Carroll (29 yo minor league lifer), there is NO closer, and no real LOOGY (when a good team would have two).

On top of that we have a part time/semi retired 1B/DH (PK- who I love and don't mind having in this team, because we suck any way) and our utility guy (L. Garcia) is hitting .182 (after hitting .198 in 111 PA's in 2013), our other back up OF (Sierra) was a waiver claim, and our back up catcher should be at AA- but we'd lose him due to Rule V.

All of this waiver claim and zero trade value crap is on our major league roster because our minor league system (above A ball) is a complete disaster.

Other than a few middle infield prospects at AAA and Matt Davidson (.203 BA), there are no other pitching or position player prospects at AAA/AA that can help us.

Ventura is making questionable game decisions- but seems to be keeping the fighting spirit with this team. Hahn is making the best of the situation with acquisitions like Abreu, Eaton, A. Garcia, Rodon, etc.

Our overall run production has improved- but we have some of the worst pitching and defense in MLB- not due to coaching/managing- but due to mediocre talent.

But this guy left a huge mess behind him both at the major league and minor league level- and it will be a while before we climb out of it.

:KW

JB98
07-11-2014, 01:54 PM
There are offensive liabilities at catcher, second base, two outfield spots, and DH. The pitching staff is 25th in the majors in ERA, 28th in WHIP, 27th in strikeouts, and leading major league baseball in walks allowed. The defense is laughable, too, ranking 26th in fielding percentage and errors committed.

This team is nowhere near good enough this year to be playing postseason baseball.

Yeah, they are what their record says they are. This roster has holes in it like Swiss cheese, and no manager ever made would be able to get this bunch to the postseason. I do disagree with the bunt yesterday in the 10th, but if Viciedo or Ramirez could have knocked in a big run for a change the point would be moot.

When Gillaspie went deep to tie it, my first reaction was not joy or elation. It was more along the lines of "Great, now we'll get walked off again." The bullpen is terrible.

LITTLE NELL
07-11-2014, 01:57 PM
All this Ventura bashing is a joke- yes he's made some mistakes- but the 2014 White Sox have at least 3 every day starters with ZERO trade value (De Aza, Flowers and Dunn) and 2 more with very little trade value (Beckham(maybe TOR) and Viciedo(maybe SEA))- when 5/9th's of your starters suck- that's a roster issue, not the manager's fault.

For our pitching- 2/5ths of the starting rotation is scrap heap stuff (Noesi (showing some promise) and Carroll (29 yo minor league lifer), there is NO closer, and no real LOOGY (when a good team would have two).

On top of that we have a part time/semi retired 1B/DH (PK- who I love and don't mind having in this team, because we suck any way) and our utility guy (L. Garcia) is hitting .182 (after hitting .198 in 111 PA's in 2013), our other back up OF (Sierra) was a waiver claim, and our back up catcher should be at AA- but we'd lose him due to Rule V.

All of this waiver claim and zero trade value crap is on our major league roster because our minor league system (above A ball) is a complete disaster.

Other than a few middle infield prospects at AAA and Matt Davidson (.203 BA), there are no other pitching or position player prospects at AAA/AA that can help us.

Ventura is making questionable game decisions- but seems to be keeping the fighting spirit with this team. Hahn is making the best of the situation with acquisitions like Abreu, Eaton, A. Garcia, Rodon, etc.

Our overall run production has improved- but we have some of the worst pitching and defense in MLB- not due to coaching/managing- but due to mediocre talent.

But this guy left a huge mess behind him both at the major league and minor league level- and it will be a while before we climb out of it.

:KW

Excellent analysis of the team but I for one still thinks that Robin is not a very good manager.

TomBradley72
07-11-2014, 03:06 PM
Excellent analysis of the team but I for one still thinks that Robin is not a very good manager.

I'm a huge Ventura fan- but I have to say I agree with you-but Al Lopez wouldn't have this team in much better shape than Ventura-

FielderJones
07-11-2014, 03:47 PM
I'm a huge Ventura fan- but I have to say I agree with you-but Al Lopez wouldn't have this team in much better shape than Ventura-

How many more wins would Earl Weaver get with this team?

Exactly.

Harry Chappas
07-11-2014, 04:37 PM
I don't think the argument is whether or not the Sox are a good team. They're not. But Ventura isn't a good manager and hasn't shown much in the way of improvement. If this were a more complete team - Avisail Garcia, new LF, 2B, catcher, and DH with a legitimate bullpen, Ventura's inadequacies wouldn't be tolerated.

My fear is that Hahn puts together the pieces in '15 for a play-off run and they're held back by poor managing. I'm frustrated now but that will be truly awful.

ricker182
07-11-2014, 05:05 PM
Does no one remember the collapse of 2012? That was the first indicator.
Robin has made many poor decisions and has thrown away a handful of games this season through his poor decision making.

TDog
07-11-2014, 05:53 PM
I'm a huge Ventura fan- but I have to say I agree with you-but Al Lopez wouldn't have this team in much better shape than Ventura-

Eddie Stanky wouldn't.

Noneck
07-11-2014, 06:08 PM
In the days of Lopez and Stanky we would have known who was actually making the decisions and who was at fault.

BainesHOF
07-12-2014, 03:38 AM
How many more wins would Earl Weaver get with this team?

Exactly.

Not "exactly." Weaver, or any other competent manager, would have easily turned a handful of losses into wins -- not that he was a magician, but Ventura has turned a handful of wins into losses. And then you'd have some little things improve, too, that would result in a couple more wins.

And De Aza would never see the field.

TomBradley72
07-12-2014, 08:03 AM
And De Aza would never see the field.

So after A. Garcia was injured- he would have played Sierra and L. Garcia exclusively in the outfield?

SCCWS
07-12-2014, 08:31 AM
I don't question some of the Robin bullpen choices since I think they are all about equal. On any given night they are effective and the next night awful. The bullpen is full of mediocrity. But the lack of defense and poor fundamentals continue. Some of that can be blamed on the hand he was dealt. But I wonder how much this teams works on these shortcomings. I hear on the message board fans say the ML is not the place to work on these. well we just saw a Boston team play 5 rookies in the starting lineup and most are 20-21 not 24-25. So their approach is on-the-job training.
Hahn has to decide if Robin is the guy or not this season. This year looks to be another 90+ loss season so next year the team needs to take the next step and try to get near .500. Another bad year and the seats will be empty and we will soon be talking about the Havana White Sox

kufram
07-12-2014, 08:52 AM
There are definitely some managerial shortcomings in game management but right now Robin Ventura gives people, particularly here, a face to vent at after every loss whereas the team provides different reasons for losing games. Not so easy a target.

Obviously, there are players getting to the major leagues without some basic, sound baseball skills particularly in the outfield. How that is possible I cannot fathom.

asindc
07-12-2014, 09:44 AM
Not "exactly." Weaver, or any other competent manager, would have easily turned a handful of losses into wins -- not that he was a magician, but Ventura has turned a handful of wins into losses. And then you'd have some little things improve, too, that would result in a couple more wins.

And De Aza would never see the field.

"Easily?"

kittle42
07-12-2014, 12:41 PM
The game wasn't lost in the dugout. The game was lost on the field. The game wasn't decided in the sixth, but that's where the White Sox, Quintana mostly, let this game get away.

I do enjoy your detailed analyses in your gamethread posts, but I take issue with the fact that you always seem to just blame the pitching. In 1-0 losses, you blame the pitcher who "knew he had to be perfect." The game is always lost on the field by the players playing it, but the manager can greatly change the likelihood of his team performing successfully by making or not making certain moves. The moves Ventura made contributed to his team losing the game much as Quintana's 6th inning did. It doesn't have to all all one or the other, as many posters here seem to like to shorthand it. Robin has a hand in a lot of these losses, and he deserves to take the grilling when it occurs.

Brian26
07-12-2014, 12:51 PM
So after A. Garcia was injured- he would have played Sierra and L. Garcia exclusively in the outfield?

If Garcia doesn't get injured, the outfield consistently would have been Viciedo/Eaton/Avisail. Interesting to consider though- the Sox may not have even picked Sierra up. L Garcia and DeAza would be bench guys.