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doublem23
06-26-2014, 12:09 AM
Yeah, the Sox stink right now, the Clubhouse is not surprisingly a stronghold of doom and gloom, so take a moment out of your day and let's highlight some good ****..

Adam Eaton... Has reached base in 20 consecutive games, hitting .338 with a .424 OBP in those games.

JB98
06-26-2014, 12:12 AM
Yeah, the Sox stink right now, the Clubhouse is not surprisingly a stronghold of doom and gloom, so take a moment out of your day and let's highlight some good ****..

Adam Eaton... Has reached base in 20 consecutive games, hitting .338 with a .424 OBP in those games.

Eaton's OBP for the season is back over .350 now.

I firmly believe he is a long-term solution in CF.

DSpivack
06-26-2014, 12:12 AM
Jose Abreu... still smacking the damn ball.

Foulke You
06-26-2014, 12:18 AM
Conor Gillaspie seems to be improving his defense at 3B to go along with his .333 batting avg.

Boondock Saint
06-26-2014, 12:29 AM
Jose Abreu is the ****.

I'm also super stoked for Carlos Rodon.

And the food at the Cell is the ****.

Soxman219
06-26-2014, 12:48 AM
We have the Rookie of the Year on this team in Abreu and a potential Cy Young candidate in Sale.

tstrike2000
06-26-2014, 01:33 AM
Our loogy will be no more!

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2014, 05:24 AM
Conor Gillaspie seems to be improving his defense at 3B to go along with his .333 batting avg.

Since Gillaspie has not hit for power I would think he would be an ideal #2 hitter. With Eaton leading off getting on base quite a bit it would open up the hole between first and second and maybe lead to a lot more hit and run plays.

Moses_Scurry
06-26-2014, 08:20 AM
I like that the corpseball of pretty much every year since 2008 has been non-existent. I remember agonizing games, especially early in the season where once the opposing team scored 1 run, the game was over. I have not felt that way at all this year. The new hitting coach appears to be a keeper (although having El Oso in the lineup certainly helps).

I feel like with Cooper and Rodon (hopefully) in the fold, the starting pitching won't be as tough to fix. Bullpens are bullpens, so who knows how hard that will be to fix.

The road to contention is a lot smoother with this team when the offense is decent.

beasly213
06-26-2014, 09:02 AM
We still have the best looking uniforms in MLB

Hitmen77
06-26-2014, 09:03 AM
At least the Sox are playing their way to another high draft pick and high international allotment for next year. :shrug:

Abreu and Eaton are both very exciting players to watch. I'm glad they're part of the core that we have moving forward. I'm looking forward to having Garcia rejoin them in 2015. Gillaspie has looked pretty good. I hope this isn't just a "career year" for him.

I'm encouraged that, at least on paper, the Sox had a very good draft this year.

....only about 3 months left on Dunn's awful contract. :waiting:

ChiSoxGal85
06-26-2014, 09:21 AM
Chris Sale is one of the best pitchers in baseball, and we have him for a while.

Adam Eaton is fun to watch, both at the plate and on the field.

I love watching Jose Abreu hit. It's hard to believe he's an MLB rookie.

Conor Gillapsie has been quietly getting the job done - even if he doesn't have power, it's nice to have someone who can get on base, and he makes some pretty decent plays sometimes.

There's some good vibes from me; that makes me feel better for my bout of swearing last night. :D:

amsteel
06-26-2014, 09:25 AM
There will be a 10 game improvement over last season.

kufram
06-26-2014, 10:03 AM
The good news...? We've been in games. It's never nice losing but last year it was almost unbearable the way they lost.

There are pieces to build on. Abreu, Sale, Garcia, Eaton, and Gillaspie.. plus there's an all-star shortstop that is going to be good for a little while yet... even Beckham could be a significant part.

We have a ton of money that will be available soon to spend on starters. I've always known that they aren't going to come from within the system and I'm fine with that. Bullpen? Crap shoot.

Finally, I think Hahn has a handle on things and that there are some pleasant surprises to come, possibly sooner than later.

Irishsox1
06-26-2014, 11:11 AM
Good news, Eaton, Abreau, Gillaspie's bat, Alexi, Beckham, Sale, last year of Paulie and I mean that in a proper sendoff for a great Sox player.

Bad news, no closer, DeAza, Dunn, Flowers, Garcia's injury and Ventura.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2014, 11:18 AM
The league adjusted to Abreu, and he adjusted right back. Even with the DL stint, he's still close to the top in a lot of the offensive categories.

Now please put him back in the third spot.

kittle42
06-26-2014, 11:37 AM
There is no better deal in ballpark concessions at any of the many stadiums I have visited than $9.75 for a XL (approx. 22 oz.) Anti-Hero or Lagunitas IPA draft down the right field line at the Cell. I really wish they had them on draft at more than one stand. It is a total steal for the customer.

Domeshot17
06-26-2014, 11:39 AM
We have a good core to build around, thats the truth. It really has not been a bad year, some people just have really unrealistic expectations.

You have an overall bad OF, especially with Avi going down, but next year you have 2/3 of a GOOD OF in Eaton and Avi....

You have 2 guys in the IF who have peaked their trade value but are not part of the long term plan, and thats great for us (Ramirez and Gordon)

You have one of the best sluggers in baseball at 1b
You have one of the top 3 SP in baseball
You have a top 5 SP prospect the minute he signs who is almost MLB ready

You have some young, talented arms in the pen who are going through growing pains

You also have money to spend next year.

hawkjt
06-26-2014, 01:42 PM
We have a good core to build around, thats the truth. It really has not been a bad year, some people just have really unrealistic expectations.

You have an overall bad OF, especially with Avi going down, but next year you have 2/3 of a GOOD OF in Eaton and Avi....

You have 2 guys in the IF who have peaked their trade value but are not part of the long term plan, and thats great for us (Ramirez and Gordon)

You have one of the best sluggers in baseball at 1b
You have one of the top 3 SP in baseball
You have a top 5 SP prospect the minute he signs who is almost MLB ready

You have some young, talented arms in the pen who are going through growing pains

You also have money to spend next year.


Agree. I am no where nearly as depressed about the franchise as I was last year at this time.

We have some good younger pieces to build around now, unlike last year.

Eaton, Garcia, Abreu, Gillaspie, Rodon, are all good additions over the last two seasons.
Sale, Quintana, Danks, and even Noesi have pitched well at times...giving us a possibility of a decent rotation next year.

The bullpen is full of young power arms, who cannot locate now, but that can change.

As you say, a few more july trades, another draft or two, and this team can contend next season or year after.

34 Inch Stick
06-26-2014, 01:47 PM
The Sox may have the AL leader in each of the categories of BA, HR and RBI on the roster and locked in for the long term.

34 Inch Stick
06-26-2014, 01:50 PM
Conor Gillapsie has been quietly getting the job done - even if he doesn't have power,

he has power, just not home run power

He has to be one of the top players in doubles per at bat in the AL

PaleHoser
06-26-2014, 02:17 PM
Hats off to this club for leading MLB in 9th inning runs scored. They make it worth tuning in until the very end.

Almost forgot to compliment Alexei Ramirez on his bounce back season and being the best shortstop in the American League.

shingo10
06-26-2014, 03:46 PM
-Coop apparently did fix Hector Noesi.

-Alexei is having a great season

-Eaton is having a great season

-Abreu is a monster

-Sale, Jake P, and Putnam are all having very good years

-The one game I was able to make this year, the hot dogs were excellent

captain54
06-26-2014, 11:28 PM
You're not really serious about this thread, are you?

MISoxfan
06-26-2014, 11:38 PM
We have a stud batting 3rd and a stud SP.

kufram
06-27-2014, 01:38 AM
It's funny. The title has the words "good vibes threads" and yet still one or two posters just can't leave it alone and bring sarcasm. Misery is optional.

doublem23
06-27-2014, 03:05 AM
You're not really serious about this thread, are you?

I am and I would *highly* advise you to keep your insights out of it

You want to be doom and gloom in literally EVERY OTHER ****ING THREAD in the Clubhouse, that's great. Not this one.

asindc
06-27-2014, 05:44 AM
You're not really serious about this thread, are you?

It's funny. The title has the words "good vibes threads" and yet still one or two posters just can't leave it alone and bring sarcasm. Misery is optional.

I am and I would *highly* advise you to keep your insights out of it

You want to be doom and gloom in literally EVERY OTHER ****ING THREAD in the Clubhouse, that's great. Not this one.

Some people just simply can't help themselves, huh?

harwar
06-27-2014, 07:19 AM
he has power, just not home run power

He has to be one of the top players in doubles per at bat in the AL


Whether it's leading off an inning, or driving in runs, i think that there is nothing so beautiful in baseball as a ringing double in the gap or down the line .. i hope that Conner never changes .. winning teams need players that can consistently hit for high average .. i just wonder if he is one of those players that can do it..

beasly213
06-27-2014, 08:10 AM
$1 hot dog day will make an epic return on July 4th


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140624&content_id=81390248&vkey=pr_cws&c_id=cws

XplodingScorbord
06-27-2014, 12:33 PM
I am and I would *highly* advise you to keep your insights out of it

You want to be doom and gloom in literally EVERY OTHER ****ING THREAD in the Clubhouse, that's great. Not this one.

I'm glad this thread exists. There's plenty to be optimistic about. Also, many people on this board could find fault if the team went 100-62 every year.

I like this board, and happily pay money to support it, but man all the dark cloud stuff gets old after a while.

I've enjoyed watching this team. We're in year one of a remodeling process. Anyone who can't see the improvement in terms of our long-term viability is blind. There's still plenty of work to do reshaping this team, but we added some good pieces, and subtracted some bad ones. I look forward to more, likely at the deadline this year, and certainly in the offseason.

Crestani
06-27-2014, 03:55 PM
Abreau and Sale make me still want to watch the games because they are exciting. I can't leave the screen, or the ESPN zone on my cell phone every time Abreau comes up...That in and of itself, is worth all the rest of the misery I endure at the usual conclusion of the game(s), lately..!!

kittle42
06-27-2014, 04:42 PM
It's funny. The title has the words "good vibes threads" and yet still one or two posters just can't leave it alone and bring sarcasm. Misery is optional.

Some people get good vibes through misery and sarcasm. I like it!

kittle42
06-27-2014, 04:43 PM
I like this board, and happily pay money to support it, but man all the dark cloud stuff gets old after a while.

Doesn't the team have to be competing/good for someone to really be a dark cloud? I mean, the great majority of us expected nothing but rebuilding this year, so we can be a little more objective.

kittle42
06-27-2014, 04:51 PM
You want to be doom and gloom in literally EVERY OTHER ****ING THREAD in the Clubhouse, that's great. Not this one.

We are all going to die some day. All of us.

SI1020
06-27-2014, 06:13 PM
We are all going to die some day. All of us. "There is no cure for birth and death, save to enjoy the interval." -- George Santayana

doublem23
06-27-2014, 08:28 PM
We are all going to die some day. All of us.

That's a little too meta for this thread, we're just talking about the Sox.

But knock it off

kufram
06-28-2014, 06:19 AM
Some people get good vibes through misery and sarcasm. I like it!

Yes, I suppose... they are usually about 12 years old.

Dan H
06-28-2014, 08:09 AM
It is okay to be optimistic but realism is needed too. Last place is last place and there is no way to sugar coat that. The Sox will be heading into 2015, and exactly 10 years after the World Series win, there has been only one playoff appearance, and one game won in the post-season. You can't sugar coat that. The up coming off season needs to be a good one or more losing will continue. No one can sugar coat that, either.

doublem23
06-28-2014, 08:55 AM
It is okay to be optimistic but realism is needed too. Last place is last place and there is no way to sugar coat that. The Sox will be heading into 2015, and exactly 10 years after the World Series win, there has been only one playoff appearance, and one game won in the post-season. You can't sugar coat that. The up coming off season needs to be a good one or more losing will continue. No one can sugar coat that, either.

:gah:

Ok, I thought I was being pretty clear here but apparently there is still some confusion, you can be doomy and gloomy all you like in literally every other thread on this entire forum. That's fine. Free country, Bill of Rights, Bald eagles, all that bull****... I can't stop you.

This thread is for people who sure, understand the Sox aren't all that great, but need a reprieve from the constant negativity and a small little escape, even if that means "sugar coating" or being "unrealistic" or whatever else you want to call it. This thread is specifically for "good vibes," if you want to be a sourpuss, that's fine, just not in here. I swear to ****ing god I am not going to explain this again.

doublem23
06-28-2014, 08:56 AM
Anyways, back to the spirit of things, enjoy watching our Cubans blast the Blue Jays

http://m.mlb.com/cws/video/topic/8879206/v34098377/cwstor-sox-blast-four-homers-in-win-vs-blue-jays/?c_id=cws

TomBradley72
06-28-2014, 10:34 AM
It is okay to be optimistic but realism is needed too. Last place is last place and there is no way to sugar coat that. The Sox will be heading into 2015, and exactly 10 years after the World Series win, there has been only one playoff appearance, and one game won in the post-season. You can't sugar coat that. The up coming off season needs to be a good one or more losing will continue. No one can sugar coat that, either.

Please start a "bad vibes" or dark clouds thread-

Thanks-

SI1020
06-28-2014, 11:28 AM
Anyways, back to the spirit of things, enjoy watching our Cubans blast the Blue Jays

http://m.mlb.com/cws/video/topic/8879206/v34098377/cwstor-sox-blast-four-homers-in-win-vs-blue-jays/?c_id=cws Thoroughly enjoyed that. Much needed after the way the road trip has gone.

MisterB
06-28-2014, 12:12 PM
Anyways, back to the spirit of things, enjoy watching our Cubans blast the Blue Jays

http://m.mlb.com/cws/video/topic/8879206/v34098377/cwstor-sox-blast-four-homers-in-win-vs-blue-jays/?c_id=cws

Well, it makes sense: Smokin' Cubans are perfectly legal in Canada.

:tongue:

doublem23
06-29-2014, 10:08 PM
Sox take 3 of 4 on the road from the leaders of the mighty AL East

3GwjfUFyY6M

soxfanreggie
06-29-2014, 10:34 PM
What I'm excited about:

Alexei busting out this year after he had a rough personal and professional year last year. One thing that gets overlooked, he's 13-16 in SBs. Not the best % on the team, but he has the most steals.

Sale continues to show Cy Young potential, and we're not having to pay him $25-30 million a year for it.

Abreu is showing MVP hitting ability, and we're not having to pay him $25-30 million a year for it. Both Sale and Abreu's contracts could be HUGE steals for us.

Quintana is overshadowed by another lefty, but he is throwing good, solid ball this year.

Garcia is making good progress in his recovery. He will be an integral part of the outfield next year.

Conor is having a great year. We needed a 3B, and he's been a welcomed surprise. It's not like he's hitting almost .320 after 100 at-bats. He's at about 225 ABs, and he's leading the team in two-baggers.

Both Dunn and Flowers are hitting about 30-40 points higher than I thought they would. They still strike out a ton and neither is good on defense, but hey, a lot better than hovering around .200.

sunofgold
06-29-2014, 11:06 PM
We are undefeated since going to the CBC (Closer by Committee)

Parity in the AL. 84 wins might get you a wildcard berth

Got rid of Downs. Heard we are close to signing Ups.

Quintana is getting even better. Trade for another solid starter and this team could still sneak into the playoffs

SCCWS
06-30-2014, 07:43 AM
What I'm excited about:

Alexei busting out this year after he had a rough personal and professional year last year. One thing that gets overlooked, he's 13-16 in SBs. Not the best % on the team, but he has the most steals.

Sale continues to show Cy Young potential, and we're not having to pay him $25-30 million a year for it.

Abreu is showing MVP hitting ability, and we're not having to pay him $25-30 million a year for it. Both Sale and Abreu's contracts could be HUGE steals for us.

Quintana is overshadowed by another lefty, but he is throwing good, solid ball this year.

Garcia is making good progress in his recovery. He will be an integral part of the outfield next year.

Conor is having a great year. We needed a 3B, and he's been a welcomed surprise. It's not like he's hitting almost .320 after 100 at-bats. He's at about 225 ABs, and he's leading the team in two-baggers.

Both Dunn and Flowers are hitting about 30-40 points higher than I thought they would. They still strike out a ton and neither is good on defense, but hey, a lot better than hovering around .200.

I agree with most of your points but we are only at the end of June. June was not kind to Alexei( .230 ish) or Flowers ( .130 ish). Even Conor took a big dip to .260 for the month. If those 3 have a bad July then the early showing may have been a hot streak in the cool weather.

Now if the Sox can find one everyday player at AAA who can get called up and hit at least .250.

kufram
06-30-2014, 08:43 AM
Even with the dip in hitting we were a few good closes away from a successful road trip.

Procol Harum
06-30-2014, 09:21 AM
Now that the Sox are coming home there will be a significant increase in churro consumption among WSI devotees--oh yeah.

MISoxfan
06-30-2014, 11:46 AM
I agree with most of your points but we are only at the end of June. June was not kind to Alexei( .230 ish) or Flowers ( .130 ish). Even Conor took a big dip to .260 for the month. If those 3 have a bad July then the early showing may have been a hot streak in the cool weather.

Now if the Sox can find one everyday player at AAA who can get called up and hit at least .250.

I'm not sweating a .260 June for Conor. Even perennial .300+ hitters have months where they hit .260.

TomBradley72
07-03-2014, 08:58 AM
Matt Davidson is coming on at AAA-hitting .306 with 1.141 OPS over his past 10 games-steady improvement month by month- .167 (April), .198(May), .239(June), .333(July)- if he can solidify his place on the 2015 WSox with a continued rebound at AAA and hopefully doing well in a September call up- would be a nice piece in the long term puzzle along with Eaton, A. Garcia and Abreu (and probably Micah Johnson).

He's only 23 yo- one of the younger prospects at AAA-

doublem23
07-08-2014, 12:26 AM
1 ER over the last 30 innings, 2 shut outs in a row, 4 games under .500, and amazingly just 6 games out of the final wild card spot...

RCWHITESOX
07-08-2014, 12:38 AM
1 ER over the last 30 innings, 2 shut outs in a row, 4 games under .500, and amazingly just 6 games out of the final wild card spot...

Kind of looking at house you can't quite afford; but at least you can dream.

hawkjt
07-08-2014, 01:07 PM
Matt Davidson is coming on at AAA-hitting .306 with 1.141 OPS over his past 10 games-steady improvement month by month- .167 (April), .198(May), .239(June), .333(July)- if he can solidify his place on the 2015 WSox with a continued rebound at AAA and hopefully doing well in a September call up- would be a nice piece in the long term puzzle along with Eaton, A. Garcia and Abreu (and probably Micah Johnson).

He's only 23 yo- one of the younger prospects at AAA-


Now there is a some good news.....Davidson needs to be the real deal in a year or three.

SoxNation05
07-08-2014, 01:50 PM
Now there is a some good news.....Davidson needs to be the real deal in a year or three.

Yeah well he's been terrible since that post. If Davidson isn't contributing three years from now the Sox will have given up on him.

Golden Sox
07-13-2014, 07:33 AM
It looks like the White Sox hit a home run with the signing of Jose Abreu. I've never seen a hitter in my lifetime like him. I can't think of anybody else like him. He hits the ball harder and longer to the opposite field better than anyone else consistently. Barring injuries, he looks like he's going to have a special career. I'm already starting to worry if the White Sox are going to be able to resign him after his six year contract is up. The White Sox have had two great hitters in my lifetime, Frank Thomas and Dick Allen. It looks like Jose Abreu is the third.

veeter
07-13-2014, 08:26 AM
I find myself making time to watch these guys again. Hahn has done a great job. They have so many young bright spots it's ridiculous. The White Sox are going to be VERY good within a short time.

TomBradley72
07-13-2014, 09:11 AM
We're improved this year- and we'll add A. Garcia, Rodon and Davidson (hopefully his improvement at AAA continues)- adding young/quality RF, 3B and a starter will be major upgrades.

Hahn needs to find a closer and a decent catcher via trade and/or free agency-

WSox597
07-13-2014, 09:31 AM
Gillaspie has been showing flashes of home run power lately. He hit a couple right down the right field line at Fenway.

Maybe he'll hit 10 or 12 home runs in addition to batting around .300. That's not too bad really. His defense seems to be improving as well.

I like the moves Rick Hahn has made so far. Hopefully he can get somebody to bite on Dunn later this month. Addition by subtraction.

Frater Perdurabo
07-13-2014, 10:58 AM
Injuries really hurt the Sox this year. Returning those injured players, plus expected contributions from upcoming talent, should make this club competitive by 2016, if not 2015.

TomBradley72
07-13-2014, 05:13 PM
Matt Davidson looks to be back on track- 17th home run today, average now up to .213, hitting over .250 for July- he's improved every month after the dismal April start- 7 game hitting streak-

If he keeps it up- we'll have 3 significant/young upgrades in the 2015 Opening Day roster- Davidson, Rodon and A. Garcia-

frankie_ventura
07-13-2014, 05:56 PM
Matt Davidson looks to be back on track- 17th home run today, average now up to .213, hitting over .250 for July- he's improved every month after the dismal April start- 7 game hitting streak-

If he keeps it up- we'll have 3 significant/young upgrades in the 2015 Opening Day roster- Davidson, Rodon and A. Garcia-


I am excited by the idea that so many incompetent players can be off the books next year (Beckham, Viciedo, De Aza, Flowers, Dunn, the entire bullpen except for Jones) and that Hahn should have some money to sign an outfielder, a catcher, a least one reliable starter, and some bullpen arms. He should try to see if he can anything decent for the incompetents this month. Worse case he gets rid of them in the offseason and not have to worry about owing them money.

He should dangle Danks as well this month. It would be great to have his 14 million salary for rebuilding. I am still not confident in his arm. Worse case is that he stays and we have a quality starter for next year.

In summary, I am excited that Hahn has some players for the core (Sale, Abreau, Quintana, and possibly Garcia, Eaton, Gillaspie, Ramirez) and will have resources next year to add more quality players.

MISoxfan
07-13-2014, 06:21 PM
You want to get rid of the ENTIRE bullpen? They ruin many of my days, too, but that's not going to happen. I think Jones, Putnam, Petricka, and one of Webb/Guerra are all likely to be back in pen next year. We'll probably sign an arm or two and maybe replace one of those guys depending on how the rest of this season goes, but there is no way we are just keeping one RP.

I'm mostly okay with it, too. Petricka and Putnam have been more than serviceable, and Webb is still young. Guerra's blown a couple of games lately, but if he's the worst guy on your pen you're in decent shape. If we had 1 or two guys to slide everyone down a position I think our bullpen would be fine.

Obviously we need some lefties.

frankie_ventura
07-13-2014, 06:34 PM
You want to get rid of the ENTIRE bullpen? They ruin many of my days, too, but that's not going to happen. I think Jones, Putnam, Petricka, and one of Webb/Guerra are all likely to be back in pen next year. We'll probably sign an arm or two and maybe replace one of those guys depending on how the rest of this season goes, but there is no way we are just keeping one RP.

I'm mostly okay with it, too. Petricka and Putnam have been more than serviceable, and Webb is still young. Guerra's blown a couple of games lately, but if he's the worst guy on your pen you're in decent shape. If we had 1 or two guys to slide everyone down a position I think our bullpen would be fine.

Obviously we need some lefties.

You have a valid point. You can not get rid of an entire bullpen. I would like to see him get a couple of established bullpen guys and then everyone can move down. I think they would like Webb to eventually be the closer but he has to reduce his walks.

kufram
07-14-2014, 12:02 PM
I just hate that baseball is so much about bullpens these days. I'll never think 3 or 4 guys all built to throw 1 inning or to one guy should influence the game to the degree they do. Mind you, I do wish we had one or two of them since it is the case.

Noneck
07-14-2014, 12:18 PM
I just hate that baseball is so much about bullpens these days. I'll never think 3 or 4 guys all built to throw 1 inning or to one guy should influence the game to the degree they do. Mind you, I do wish we had one or two of them since it is the case.


I have been thinking the same. It just doesnt seem like the game should depend on lower tier pitchers. There are a few reliefers that are upper tier pitchers but the vast majority are not.

LITTLE NELL
07-14-2014, 01:08 PM
I just hate that baseball is so much about bullpens these days. I'll never think 3 or 4 guys all built to throw 1 inning or to one guy should influence the game to the degree they do. Mind you, I do wish we had one or two of them since it is the case.

Thats one of the big changes that Ive seen in my following Baseball and the Sox since 1953. First they went to a 5 man staff and then they baby them more with pitch limits. Give me a break when a guy goes out there and pitches 6 innings, allows 3 runs and its considered a quality start. Most staffs had 9 pitchers during the Go Go White Sox years, now its more like 12 or 13. Complete games are just about going the way of the dinosaurs. We will never ever see a Billy Pierce piching 16 innings or a Juan Marichal going 18 innings.

I know that teams have so very much money invested with these pitchers with big contracts but they are still winding up with sore arms and some kind of surgery. Maybe they are babying them too much.

SI1020
07-14-2014, 01:34 PM
I just hate that baseball is so much about bullpens these days. I'll never think 3 or 4 guys all built to throw 1 inning or to one guy should influence the game to the degree they do. Mind you, I do wish we had one or two of them since it is the case.

I have been thinking the same. It just doesnt seem like the game should depend on lower tier pitchers. There are a few reliefers that are upper tier pitchers but the vast majority are not.

Thats one of the big changes that Ive seen in my following Baseball and the Sox since 1953. First they went to a 5 man staff and then they baby them more with pitch limits. Give me a break when a guy goes out there and pitches 6 innings, allows 3 runs and its considered a quality start. Most staffs had 9 pitchers during the Go Go White Sox years, now its more loike 12 or 13. Complete games are just about going the way of the dinosaurs. We will never ever see a Billy Pierce piching 16 innings or a Juan Marichal going 18 innings.

I know that teams have so very much money invested with these pitchers with big contracts but they are still winding up with sore arms and some kind of surgery. Maybe they are babying them too much.

Tony LaRussa changed the game and not for the better IMHO. Now you've got your 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy and your closer. Don't forget you need to put in your LOOGY when necessary. Heaven help any manager that does things differently as that places his job in immediate jeopardy. In spite of having 12 or 13 pitchers on the roster there are extra inning games where managers run out of pitchers. Even more important pitchers seem psychologically conditioned to this type of thinking. You can't have a Kent Tekulve go 2 2/3 or a Mike Marshall go three and then think nothing of calling upon them to go an inning or so the next day. You can't mix and match a Lown and Staley in the late innings. Every one has their role and we must have order. While I'm on the soapbox let me conclude by saying rosters that are top heavy with pitchers restrict the number of late inning moves a manager can make with his position players, particularly in the AL because of the DH.

DSpivack
07-14-2014, 01:35 PM
Thats one of the big changes that Ive seen in my following Baseball and the Sox since 1953. First they went to a 5 man staff and then they baby them more with pitch limits. Give me a break when a guy goes out there and pitches 6 innings, allows 3 runs and its considered a quality start. Most staffs had 9 pitchers during the Go Go White Sox years, now its more loike 12 or 13. Complete games are just about going the way of the dinosaurs. We will never ever see a Billy Pierce piching 16 innings or a Juan Marichal going 18 innings.

I know that teams have so very much money invested with these pitchers with big contracts but they are still winding up with sore arms and some kind of surgery. Maybe they are babying them too much.

That seems to assume that pitchers in the past didn't get injured, or got injured at a lesser rate, or that pitcher's careers were longer then. I'm not sure what correlation there is between pitcher use over time in the sport and the frequency of injury. It's such an unnatural act for the human body to perform that I expect injuries to be fairly common in all eras.

russ99
07-14-2014, 03:53 PM
You have a valid point. You can not get rid of an entire bullpen. I would like to see him get a couple of established bullpen guys and then everyone can move down. I think they would like Webb to eventually be the closer but he has to reduce his walks.

I think if the Sox can somehow solve closer, the rest of the pen will fall into place with an addition or two.

The second half is time to try these guys and see how they do.

Personally I'd prefer the Sox add an established arm to close next year, and that and a LF/RF who can play decent defense and really hit well for average are their two biggest holes to fill for next season.

LITTLE NELL
07-14-2014, 04:05 PM
That seems to assume that pitchers in the past didn't get injured, or got injured at a lesser rate, or that pitcher's careers were longer then. I'm not sure what correlation there is between pitcher use over time in the sport and the frequency of injury. It's such an unnatural act for the human body to perform that I expect injuries to be fairly common in all eras.

They were a lot less fragile then than they are now, why I don't know.

DSpivack
07-14-2014, 04:08 PM
They were a lot less fragile then than they are now, why I don't know.
I'm not sure that's exactly true, though. How long was the average career, then?

TomBradley72
07-14-2014, 04:09 PM
I think if the Sox can somehow solve closer, the rest of the pen will fall into place with an addition or two.

The second half is time to try these guys and see how they do.

Personally I'd prefer the Sox add an established arm to close next year, and that and a LF/RF who can play decent defense and really hit well for average are their two biggest holes to fill for next season.

I would go with an establishe closer (I agree that the rest of the pen could be decent if they plugged this hole).

The other glaring need is catcher- the mediocrity from Flowers (both on defense and at the plate) is killing us.

LITTLE NELL
07-14-2014, 04:46 PM
I'm not sure that's exactly true, though. How long was the average career, then?

Guys like Feller, Pierce, Ford, Wynn, Spahn, Drysdale, Roberts, Burdette, Bunning, Marichal, Gibson just to name a few hung on a long time. The one great pitcher whose career was cut short was of course Koufax.

DSpivack
07-14-2014, 05:02 PM
Guys like Feller, Pierce, Ford, Wynn, Spahn, Drysdale, Roberts, Burdette, Bunning, Marichal, Gibson just to name a few hung on a long time. The one great pitcher whose career was cut short was of course Koufax.
Right, but I'm thinking of the league as a whole, not just star players.

LITTLE NELL
07-14-2014, 05:26 PM
Right, but I'm thinking of the league as a whole, not just star players.

OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then.

kufram
07-14-2014, 05:31 PM
I heard somewhere the problem goes back to pitch counts introduced at young ages and the arms are never built up to the strength those guys had. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be protected, it is just something I heard on a broadcast. I would be interested in the trend of pitcher longevity over the years, but I think pitchers like the guys listed in a previous post can't be produced so much any more. They didn't all die young of arm failure did they?

I can live with changing times and pitchers getting some kind of commendable stat for pitching a few innings... I don't value it much, but who am I? I just don't like the game being controlled so much, especially every close game, by guys that don't go one inch outside of a certain role. They come in fresh and strong and only in situations that favour them and face guys that have been actually, you know, playing the whole game. It would be fair if a manager could pinch hit with specialist hitters 3-4 times in in the 8th and again in the 9th inning in close games but those guys don't have to play the field. A bench full of hitters to match up spontaneously with whatever pitcher is brought in.

But then, I don't understand why a pitcher that only works one inning or less can't do that every night or at least several in a row. I guess it shows how little I know.

SI1020
07-14-2014, 05:48 PM
OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then. Friend like Lolich on the Tigers was a real workhorse. Great control pitcher. Much better than his W-L and I hope that is not opening another can of worms.

WhiteSox5187
07-14-2014, 07:16 PM
I heard somewhere the problem goes back to pitch counts introduced at young ages and the arms are never built up to the strength those guys had. I'm not saying that players shouldn't be protected, it is just something I heard on a broadcast. I would be interested in the trend of pitcher longevity over the years, but I think pitchers like the guys listed in a previous post can't be produced so much any more. They didn't all die young of arm failure did they?

I can live with changing times and pitchers getting some kind of commendable stat for pitching a few innings... I don't value it much, but who am I? I just don't like the game being controlled so much, especially every close game, by guys that don't go one inch outside of a certain role. They come in fresh and strong and only in situations that favour them and face guys that have been actually, you know, playing the whole game. It would be fair if a manager could pinch hit with specialist hitters 3-4 times in in the 8th and again in the 9th inning in close games but those guys don't have to play the field. A bench full of hitters to match up spontaneously with whatever pitcher is brought in.

But then, I don't understand why a pitcher that only works one inning or less can't do that every night or at least several in a row. I guess it shows how little I know.

MLB Network had a really good roundtable on this at the beginning of the season and the writers, former players and a few doctors really emphasized that point above. The consensus was that the damage is done waaay before a pitcher even signs their first professional contract.

MISoxfan
07-15-2014, 12:00 AM
I would think that if anything young pitchers (pre-mlb) throw more often and much differently than they did 50 years ago.

kufram
07-18-2014, 01:46 AM
That seems to assume that pitchers in the past didn't get injured, or got injured at a lesser rate, or that pitcher's careers were longer then. I'm not sure what correlation there is between pitcher use over time in the sport and the frequency of injury. It's such an unnatural act for the human body to perform that I expect injuries to be fairly common in all eras.

Is it unnatural? The shoulder developed as it did in humans because they needed to be able to throw to survive... to kill for food. Perhaps the baseball is too light for the strength of the shoulder so the elbow gets the strain. Where on the body do most pitcher's injuries occur?

doublem23
07-18-2014, 02:02 AM
Is it unnatural? The shoulder developed as it did in humans because they needed to be able to throw to survive... to kill for food. Perhaps the baseball is too light for the strength of the shoulder so the elbow gets the strain. Where on the body do most pitcher's injuries occur?

The motion is not necessarily unnatural but doing it 100 times in the course of 2-3 hours probably is

kufram
07-18-2014, 05:32 AM
The motion is not necessarily unnatural but doing it 100 times in the course of 2-3 hours probably is

Sure, that goes without saying... any labour comes with strain. Ask somebody who lays bricks, or pulls concrete and that is 8 hours a day without a break every 15-20 minutes.

That is why the arm strength needs to be built up slowly from a young age and maintained over years.

My point was that the human shoulder and arm was built to throw as a primary purpose.

34 Inch Stick
07-18-2014, 09:20 AM
Sure, that goes without saying... any labour comes with strain. Ask somebody who lays bricks, or pulls concrete and that is 8 hours a day without a break every 15-20 minutes.
.

bad union

Milw
07-18-2014, 02:17 PM
OK, thinking back on guys that I would call journeymen types, you had Donovan, Ray Herbert, Joel Horlen, Gary Peters on the Sox, then guys like Bob Rush and Dick Ellsworth and Kenny Holtzman on the Cubs. Stottlemeyer, Grim, Terry and Larsen on the Yankees. Johnny Podres on the Dodgers, Face and Friend on the Pirates, I could name a lot more but yes I think pitchers lasted longer back then.
My guess isn't so much that they "lasted longer," it's that the medical expertise didn't exist to identify injuries when they happened (or, more likely, there was external pressure from either the organization or the player to "just patch it up"). A lot of these guys with arm injuries could pitch through them if they really wanted/needed to, at least for awhile. They're smart not to, of course, but I really don't buy the idea that today's pitchers are somehow more injury prone.

RCWHITESOX
07-18-2014, 02:34 PM
I think if the Sox can somehow solve closer, the rest of the pen will fall into place with an addition or two.

The second half is time to try these guys and see how they do.

Personally I'd prefer the Sox add an established arm to close next year, and that and a LF/RF who can play decent defense and really hit well for average are their two biggest holes to fill for next season.

Your on target but you forgot to include catcher. Please not another year of watching Tyler Flowers pathetic play.

Whitesox029
07-18-2014, 04:26 PM
Running with the theme, the Sox are 6 games better than they were last year. Also, if nothing else were different, but they had a better bullpen, I think they would be .500. Everything else has been better than a lot of people expected.

kufram
07-18-2014, 04:35 PM
The All Star break has been a harbinger of a change in fortunes many times for many teams ... not a good change for the White Sox often enough. It is the start of the real season. Maybe this time the trend can be a start with some wins.