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View Full Version : Minnesota loses again, are we still in this thing?


SoxxoS
08-11-2002, 08:41 PM
We have 9 games left with the Twins. They have lost 6 out of their last 7. They were horrible after the all star break last year. Their bullpen is REALLY worn down. Cy Mays can beat us, but not much else. They are playing Baltimore and Boston (the teams they lost 6 of 7 to) again in the next week. Then they play us for 3. So lets say, we take the 2 from Texas, take 2 of 3 from Oakland (being optimistic, hopefully well get Harang and Lidle for 2 of three games.) Minnesota loses 5 of 7 (optimistic again, but definitely possible.). We win 4 of 6. Pick up 2.5 more games. Now we are down 10.5 when we play Minnesota. We sweep the Twins at home. Now we are down 7. Here is the kicker-We play:
Tampa Bay
Toronto
Detroit
Toronto
Cleveland
K.C.

The Twins play
K.C.
Seattle
Oakland
Seattle
Oakland
Detroit
Cleveland

In closing what is better than a quote from Dumb and Dumber-

"So you're saying I have a chance???"

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-11-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
We have 9 games left with the Twins. They have lost 6 out of their last 7. They were horrible after the all star break last year. Their bullpen is REALLY worn down. Cy Mays can beat us, but not much else. They are playing Baltimore and Boston (the teams they lost 6 of 7 to) again in the next week. Then they play us for 3. So lets say, we take the 2 from Texas, take 2 of 3 from Oakland (being optimistic, hopefully well get Harang and Lidle for 2 of three games.) Minnesota loses 5 of 7 (optimistic again, but definitely possible.). We win 4 of 6. Pick up 2.5 more games. Now we are down 10.5 when we play Minnesota. We sweep the Twins at home. Now we are down 7.


I don't think we're going to catch Minnesota even though they are doing their patented late season fade. I'll be satisfied if the Sox play good ball the rest of the way & salvage a little dignity out of a failed season.

Daver
08-11-2002, 08:50 PM
It would seem a no brainer the Sox could jump back into the race,till you consider the fact that they got demoralized by the lowly Tiggers and the Royals right after the break.

Needless to say it should prove to be interesting,if the Sox can continue their recent winning ways.

Chisox_cali
08-11-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
We have 9 games left with the Twins. They have lost 6 out of their last 7. They were horrible after the all star break last year. Their bullpen is REALLY worn down. Cy Mays can beat us, but not much else. They are playing Baltimore and Boston (the teams they lost 6 of 7 to) again in the next week. Then they play us for 3. So lets say, we take the 2 from Texas, take 2 of 3 from Oakland (being optimistic, hopefully well get Harang and Lidle for 2 of three games.) Minnesota loses 5 of 7 (optimistic again, but definitely possible.). We win 4 of 6. Pick up 2.5 more games. Now we are down 10.5 when we play Minnesota. We sweep the Twins at home. Now we are down 7. Here is the kicker-We play:
Tampa Bay
Toronto
Detroit
Toronto
Cleveland
K.C.

The Twins play
K.C.
Seattle
Oakland
Seattle
Oakland
Detroit
Cleveland

In closing what is better than a quote from Dumb and Dumber-

"So you're saying I have a chance???"

[soup nazi] "No optimism for You!" [/soup nazi] :)

Really though it would be cool, but if there's a strike, they won't be playing those games anyways.

Also it's baseball you never know what can happen.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-11-2002, 08:57 PM
Here's my take on MLB's labor trouble.

If the Sox mount a comeback, and pull within at least one game of the A.L. Central lead--there will be a strike.

If the Sox simply continue sucking, more or less every game, give or take one or two--the season will drag on for the entire miserable eight weeks that are left.

:gulp:

Chisox_cali
08-11-2002, 08:58 PM
And if we don't catch them, and there is playoffs, it will be nice to see them take the early exit. They are only 10-15 against the +.500 AL Teams. It would be a lugher to have Game 1 of the ALDS Kyle Lohse against Pedro Martinez, or Mark Mulder, or Roger Clemens, or Jamie Moyer, or Freddy Garcia. Gee I wonder who would come out on top there. We already saw what happened when Pedro faced the Twins, he's alittle better pitcher in the playoffs too, and he has experience.

Chisox_cali
08-11-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here's my take on MLB's labor trouble.

If the Sox mount a comeback, and pull within at least one game of the A.L. Central lead--there will be a strike.

If the Sox simply continue sucking, more or less every game, give or take one or two--the season will drag on for the entire miserable eight weeks that are left.

:gulp:

I think it would be more like we are in first place then there is a strike, or even worse we take the central division, and then they strike right before the playoffs.

WhiteSox = Life
08-11-2002, 09:44 PM
It would be spectacular if somehow the White Sox did somehow wind up beating Minnesota to win the Central. If they do that, I believe that with that kind of momentum, they'd be unstoppable, win the WS, and be just like the Mets of '69.

But, even if they do, we all know, that the Tribune will say that while the comeback was good, the Twins didn't play that horribly, just bad enough to lose the division after being 17 (1/2) games up at one point.

Ah, but we all know, more than likely, it ain't gonna happen, so we'll just have to take some vicarious pride and enjoyment out of seeing the Twins getting their butts handed to them on a plate in the playoffs.

:)

TornLabrum
08-11-2002, 09:59 PM
For the optimists out there, here's a little ice water in your face. The Sox play much better at home than on the road. Right now we have left (unless I've forgotten about a make-up game somewhere along the way) 21 games left at home and 21 on the road. If we follow true to form, we'll play under .500 ball.

WinningUgly!
08-11-2002, 10:36 PM
I can see it now...
The Sox will make a monster run at the Twinkies and end up falling short by just a game or two. The media will then rip the Sox for trading away Durham, Alomar, Lofton & Howry...saying they would have been enough to put them over the top. :D:

LongDistanceFan
08-11-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I can see it now...
The Sox will make a monster run at the Twinkies and end up falling short by just a game or two. The media will then rip the Sox for trading away Durham, Alomar, Lofton & Howry...saying they would have been enough to put them over the top. :D:

would you have expected less?

WinningUgly!
08-11-2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


would you have expected less?

Nope! :D:

Chisox_cali
08-11-2002, 10:54 PM
Since we traded Ray Ray on July 25th, which I think of as the start of this new 'Kids Can Play Era' We're 10-6, The Twinkies are 9-7

voodoochile
08-11-2002, 10:56 PM
We'd need to be no worse than 7 games out come September. Ask me again then. Right now, it is nice to see the team showing some life, but no team has ever come from this far back with this much time to play, though the flubbies did see a 17.5 game swing from August to the end of the season in 1969...

:D:

WinningUgly!
08-11-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
the flubbies did see a 17.5 game swing from August to the end of the season in 1969...

:D:

...And haven't been the same since. :D:

voodoochile
08-11-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


...And haven't been the same since. :D:

Actually, they have been pretty much the same for the last 94 years and counting...

Still, I think 1972 was the last time they finished back to back seasons with winning records, so 1969 may just have been the death knell for them...

CubKilla
08-11-2002, 11:44 PM
With all this optimism being batted around, I'm feeling like I reading posts on a sCrUBS board. LOL. But seriously, Minnesota tripping on their proverbial di@%s doesn't surprise me and I don't think it surprises many here. They did it last year. I figured they'd do it this year too. Only difference this year is that they owned a double-digit lead after the All-Star break. It would take a choke reminiscent of the aforementioned '69 Cubs for the White Sox to win the AL Central.

doublem23
08-12-2002, 01:32 AM
If the Twins go rougly .500 (we'll make it a LITTLE easier on the Sox, 21-22 the rest of the way), they will finish the season with a record of 91-71.

That means, as of right now, the Sox would need 34 wins to TIE Minnesota, meaning, they'd need to finish the season 34-9... That's .791 baseball over rougly six weeks, boys.

Generally, I'm a pretty optimisic guy, but damn, the Twins are going to have to completely fall apart if we're going to catch them.

RedPinStripes
08-12-2002, 01:39 AM
Twins will prolly play close to .500 ball. Not looking good for the Sox.

doublem23
08-12-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Twins will prolly play close to .500 ball. Not looking good for the Sox.

Yes, even if the Twins play .400 ball (17-26), the Sox will need to go 30-13 (.698), to tie them.

It's going to take two gargantuan miracles for our Soxies, boys.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If the Twins go rougly .500 (we'll make it a LITTLE easier on the Sox, 21-22 the rest of the way), they will finish the season with a record of 91-71.

That means, as of right now, the Sox would need 34 wins to TIE Minnesota, meaning, they'd need to finish the season 34-9... That's .791 baseball over rougly six weeks, boys.

Generally, I'm a pretty optimisic guy, but damn, the Twins are going to have to completely fall apart if we're going to catch them.

stats......... there goes my hope.

voodoochile
08-12-2002, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Twins will prolly play close to .500 ball. Not looking good for the Sox.

Hasn't been for a long time.

The whole idea of catching Minnesota would come down to sweeping them in the 9 games we have left or at worst going 8-1. Now, if Minnesota plays .500 in the other games then they would end up with 88 wins. For the Sox to tie they would need to go 31-12 over all and 23-11 in the games other than Minnesota.

Still not very likely, but it feels better than looking at those other numbers...

RedPinStripes
08-12-2002, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Hasn't been for a long time.

The whole idea of catching Minnesota would come down to sweeping them in the 9 games we have left or at worst going 8-1. Now, if Minnesota plays .500 in the other games then they would end up with 88 wins. For the Sox to tie they would need to go 31-12 over all and 23-11 in the games other than Minnesota.

Still not very likely, but it feels better than looking at those other numbers...

Where's the baseball magic when you need it? :D:

Soxheads
08-12-2002, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Where's the baseball magic when you need it? :D:

:nandrolone
"I can hook you up with all the magic you need."

RedPinStripes
08-12-2002, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by Soxheads


:nandrolone
"I can hook you up with all the magic you need."

That's cancer.

oldcomiskey
08-12-2002, 06:24 AM
in the words of the great late LT. COL. Henry Blake----"Gee, I sure hope do"..Radar......Do you think....ah, phooey, nevermind Radar

MaggPipes
08-12-2002, 09:13 AM
Well the only reason i think we have a slight chance is because the up-beat way this club is playig and the Twinks are coasting with in-house problems (Gardenhire and Mientkichifbsjgb however you spell either of those, fighting) There is no pressure on the White Sox, all the pressure is on the Twinks.

delben91
08-12-2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
Mientkichifbsjgb however you spell either of those

I think you left out the silent "q" in Doug's name there. :cool:

Twins8791
08-12-2002, 10:50 AM
The Twins are a .500 club this year - on the road.
Much better at home.

If the Twins can take the lead without their #1 and #3 pitchers,
they can finish the job without #2.

Magic number is 31.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Twins8791
The Twins are a .500 club this year - on the road.
Much better at home.

If the Twins can take the lead without their #1 and #3 pitchers,
they can finish the job without #2.

Magic number is 31.

don't glout too much

Kilroy
08-12-2002, 10:58 AM
Well, it ain't over til it's over. I know that its a long shot, but it could happen that the Twins fold like oragami and the Sox catch them.

Not that I believe it will, but you never know.

It sure would be fun if the gap closed to about 4-5 games tho, wouldn't it?? I'd love to see the young Sox playing with that kind of defecit to erase with maybe 2 weeks to go.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Well, it ain't over til it's over. I know that its a long shot, but it could happen that the Twins fold like oragami and the Sox catch them.

Not that I believe it will, but you never know.

It sure would be fun if the gap closed to about 4-5 games tho, wouldn't it. I'd love to see the young Sox playing with that kind of defecit to erase with maybe 2 weeks to go.

that would be sweet.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


that would be sweet.

I feel like I just walked into a Cubs board.

:KW

"I'd say this was all part of my evil plan, but I'm not that smart."

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I feel like I just walked into a Cubs board.

please explain that. :?:

Iguana775
08-12-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
please explain that. :?:

i think he means that cubs fans seem to be overly optimistic and this is an optimistic thread(a very rare thing around here lately. lol)

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775


i think he means that cubs fans seem to be overly optimistic and this is an optimistic thread(a very rare thing around here lately. lol)

i was going nuts here. i tought he was calling me one, a fan. me! argh......... i have never met a sCrubs fan face that i didn't like to hit. now i am going to get flame for saying that, as i did the last time.

Kilroy
08-12-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Not that I believe it will, but you never know.



Originally posted by TornLabrum
I feel like I just walked into a Cubs board.


Lemme see, even tho I said I didn't believe it would happen, saying that it would be interesting to see is somehow Cub-ish?

So in order to stay on the White Sox tip, I have to say something like "KW is a flippin moron, Klayton sucks, Manuel is a moron, why wasn't Crede up here last year, trade Thomas..." Have I left anything out? Oh wait, how could I forget -- the Ritchie trade blew.

That "Sox" enuf for you?

RKMeibalane
08-12-2002, 01:31 PM
I'm not too concerned about the Sox winning the division. I've thought about them coming from behind to win in these last six weeks, but that is a remote possibility.

The primary goal of the Sox should be to finish out the season on a positive note. Crede and Harris must continue to improve, so they will be ready for a full season in 2003. Parque needs to build on the sucess he had last week. If he can accomplish that, he will be back in the starting rotation next year. His return would give the Sox an excuse to rid themselves of Todd Ritchie, whose stats resemble those of a pitcher who spent an entire season in Coors Field.

FarmerAndy
08-12-2002, 01:35 PM
I can't believe some of what I'm reading here. It's like some people have been smoking the Cubbie Crack.

I hope the Sox can play well for the rest of the way and close the gap a little. It would be nice to end the season above .500 and only single digits behind the Twins. But delusions of winning the divison? Come on people. Even the really good teams will have one or two bad streaks during the season, and the Twins are having one right now, but I don't think they are having a second half collapse like last year.

I hate to say it (REALLY hate to say it), but I think the Twins deserve a little more credit. They are a good team, but nobody wants to believe they are for real. (Kinda like the Sox in 2000.) As far as everybody saying that they want to see them choke in the playoffs, I have to ask why. One of the first things I learned about sports when I was a kid is that if you don't make it to the end, then you want the team that beat you to go on and win it all. At least that way, you know you lost to the best. That's why I wanted the Blue Jays to win the World Series in '93 after we lost in the playoffs.

I guess there's nothing wrong with dreaming. But I hope nobody here really thinks we have a chance to win the division this year, 'cause then I might start to wonder what they're putting in the water on the south side.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I can't believe some of what I'm reading here. It's like some people have been smoking the Cubbie Crack.

I hope the Sox can play well for the rest of the way and close the gap a little. It would be nice to end the season above .500 and only single digits behind the Twins. But delusions of winning the divison? Come on people. Even the really good teams will have one or two bad streaks during the season, and the Twins are having one right now, but I don't think they are having a second half collapse like last year.

I hate to say it (REALLY hate to say it), but I think the Twins deserve a little more credit. They are a good team, but nobody wants to believe they are for real. (Kinda like the Sox in 2000.) As far as everybody saying that they want to see them choke in the playoffs, I have to ask why. One of the first things I learned about sports when I was a kid is that if you don't make it to the end, then you want the team that beat you to go on and win it all. At least that way, you know you lost to the best. That's why I wanted the Blue Jays to win the World Series in '93 after we lost in the playoffs.

I guess there's nothing wrong with dreaming. But I hope nobody here really thinks we have a chance to win the division this year, 'cause then I might start to wonder what they're putting in the water on the south side.

i will be honest with you. having the sox finish strong is sweet and will make me happy. my season for baseball is over when the sox stop playing. so if they don't make it to the playoff, then i really don't care on who what or where about the playoff.

mrwag
08-12-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

One of the first things I learned about sports when I was a kid is that if you don't make it to the end, then you want the team that beat you to go on and win it all. At least that way, you know you lost to the best. That's why I wanted the Blue Jays to win the World Series in '93 after we lost in the playoffs.


That's the same way I felt back then. I think Minnie's got a good team actually, but if we could have done something about Ritchie's horrible year and made those trades a month sooner that they were made, we'd be able to talk about something now. But, unfortunately, we'll be lucky to finish .500 again this year.

Atleast we all know that Clayton will be toast, and we should have a little more fire for next year. The kids will have some more experience, and maybe (cross fingers) our management will be shuffled and maybe we'll even get a decent FA pitcher next year. Who knows, maybe Butter will be the real deal now?

It sure is fun to dream...

Iwritecode
08-12-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I hate to say it (REALLY hate to say it), but I think the Twins deserve a little more credit. They are a good team, but nobody wants to believe they are for real. (Kinda like the Sox in 2000.) As far as everybody saying that they want to see them choke in the playoffs, I have to ask why. One of the first things I learned about sports when I was a kid is that if you don't make it to the end, then you want the team that beat you to go on and win it all. At least that way, you know you lost to the best. That's why I wanted the Blue Jays to win the World Series in '93 after we lost in the playoffs.

Even if (and they probably will) the Twins win the division, I still don't see them doing much in the playoffs. They've fattened their record this year against Cleveland, Detroit, KC and (sadly) the Sox. Yet they still would be in second place if they were put in any other division in the AL. Right now they are just the only AL central team that hasn't sucked quite as much as all the others and the weakest of all the playoff contenders. I will probably be rooting for either the A's, Angels or Red Sox. Possibly the M's.

Originally posted by FarmerAndy I guess there's nothing wrong with dreaming. But I hope nobody here really thinks we have a chance to win the division this year, 'cause then I might start to wonder what they're putting in the water on the south side.

The only thing I can say is that this is baseball and just about anything can happen. I doubt it will though...

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i was going nuts here. i tought he was calling me one, a fan. me! argh......... i have never met a sCrubs fan face that i didn't like to hit. now i am going to get flame for saying that, as i did the last time.

So you'd walk up and slug my 86-year-old aunt?

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


So you'd walk up and slug my 86-year-old aunt?

it would be tempting but i would be afraid that she will kick my arse. :D:

WillieHarris12
08-12-2002, 03:07 PM
I am hoping for a 10 game winning streak, then we can see what happens from there. :)

voodoochile
08-12-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Even if (and they probably will) the Twins win the division, I still don't see them doing much in the playoffs. They've fattened their record this year against Cleveland, Detroit, KC and (sadly) the Sox. Yet they still would be in second place if they were put in any other division in the AL. Right now they are just the only AL central team that hasn't sucked quite as much as all the others and the weakest of all the playoff contenders. I will probably be rooting for either the A's, Angels or Red Sox. Possibly the M's.


I understand the Angels and Red Sox, but how can any Sox fan root for the A's or the M's? The A's used to be in our division and regularly were cocky and arrogant about their dominance of the up and coming Sox in the early 90's. The M's I just find annoying. After Lou's trips to first base and the batting circle a few years ago in the playoffs, I just can't find it in me to root for them...


Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


it would be tempting but i would be afraid that she will kick my arse. :D:

My guess is she would smack you a LOT harder than you would ever smack her, so you are probably right...

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile



My guess is she would smack you a LOT harder than you would ever smack her, so you are probably right...

oh yeah i got this visualization of her holding my hair pulling my head down and her giving me all uppercuts. with me begging that i would convert.

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I feel like I just walked into a Cubs board.

:KW

"I'd say this was all part of my evil plan, but I'm not that smart."

Just being optimistic, does NOT make someone a Flubs fan. It makes them a Fan, like every fan in the world. There is no rulebook on being a Fan of a Team that says all White Sox Fans have to hate players and management and can never be happy about anything. We're all Fans of the Chicago White Sox Baseball Club, That's what brought us here. Let the people have there thoughts of Optimism if they wan't.....They're Fans.

Iwritecode
08-12-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I understand the Angels and Red Sox, but how can any Sox fan root for the A's or the M's? The A's used to be in our division and regularly were cocky and arrogant about their dominance of the up and coming Sox in the early 90's. The M's I just find annoying. After Lou's trips to first base and the batting circle a few years ago in the playoffs, I just can't find it in me to root for them...

I really don't have any problems with the A's. I guess mostly it's cause Ray is there now. He deserves it. God knows he would never have gotten anywhere staying here. I only said the M's cause I had to root for them last year when they played the Tribe. They were the lesser of 2 evils...

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Just being optimistic, does NOT make someone a Flubs fan. It makes them a Fan, like every fan in the world. There is no rulebook on being a Fan of a Team that says all White Sox Fans have to hate players and management and can never be happy about anything. We're all Fans of the Chicago White Sox Baseball Club, That's what brought us here. Let the people have there thoughts of Optimism if they wan't.....They're Fans.

Remember when Bruce Kimm took over from Don Baylor and the Cubs fans were calling up the sportstalk stations yapping about how they were back in the playoff race? Remember how far they were out? I do. Just about as far out as we were this weekend. But they had about 20 more games to catch up than we do now. So if you want me to be brutally honest, this so-called "optimism" is a whole lot worse than I've heard lately from any Flubs fan.

:KW

"Gee, you were right, Mr. Reinsdorf!"

:reinsy

"Like I told you, Kenny, my mentor Mr. Barnum was right. There is one born every minute."

Ol Aches & Pains
08-12-2002, 08:39 PM
Considering the Sox were fortunate to salvage a split with the Tampa Bay Double-A's last week, I think it's wildly optimistic to expect they can catch the Twins.

Ol Aches & Pains
08-12-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I understand the Angels and Red Sox, but how can any Sox fan root for the A's or the M's?

The M's for one reason: Ichiro. If you don't like Ichiro, you don't like baseball.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


The M's for one reason: Ichiro. If you don't like Ichiro, you don't like baseball.

He's a real throwback. I love watching the guy play.

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Remember when Bruce Kimm took over from Don Baylor and the Cubs fans were calling up the sportstalk stations yapping about how they were back in the playoff race?

Well No, Since I live in California I don't get Chicago Sports Talk.

Your saying this like Optimism is a Bad thing, and Your making it sound like only Flub Fans are optimistic, and with that they are Bad and Wrong. Every Person who is a fan of a team in any sport Football Basketball Hockey etc. Are Optimistic about the team that they follow, Everyone here is optimistic about the Sox because they are Fans of the White Sox, makes 100% chance to me, they are Fans of the Team, Not a hard concept for me to follow. Maybe because your an elder Sox fan and have had to deal with this team for Longer than I, but you know what? Your Here. At a Chicago White Sox FAN website. So in a way your Optimistic, I mean would you really waste your time writing articles about a team--whether they are positive or negative-- that you hate?

Iwritecode
08-12-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


The M's for one reason: Ichiro. If you don't like Ichiro, you don't like baseball.

Well, I don't like him cause he aways beats the crap out of the Sox (along with every other team I guess...). Gotta respect his skills though.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Well No, Since I live in California I don't get Chicago Sports Talk.

Your saying this like Optimism is a Bad thing, and Your making it sound like only Flub Fans are optimistic, and with that they are Bad and Wrong. Every Person who is a fan of a team in any sport Football Basketball Hockey etc. Are Optimistic about the team that they follow, Everyone here is optimistic about the Sox because they are Fans of the White Sox, makes 100% chance to me, they are Fans of the Team, Not a hard concept for me to follow. Maybe because your an elder Sox fan and have had to deal with this team for Longer than I, but you know what? Your Here. At a Chicago White Sox FAN website. So in a way your Optimistic, I mean would you really waste your time writing articles about a team--whether they are positive or negative-- that you hate?

Sometimes I wonder why I'm a Sox fan, and then I think about the local alternative. Then I need to take a Prozac.

voodoochile
08-12-2002, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Remember when Bruce Kimm took over from Don Baylor and the Cubs fans were calling up the sportstalk stations yapping about how they were back in the playoff race? Remember how far they were out? I do. Just about as far out as we were this weekend. But they had about 20 more games to catch up than we do now. So if you want me to be brutally honest, this so-called "optimism" is a whole lot worse than I've heard lately from any Flubs fan.

I don't see anyone screaming, "World Series here we come!" in this thread. Probably the Sox have been so pathetic this season after so much optimism to start that any sign of life is reason to celebrate. Well, recently the Sox have shown signs of life, playing good solid baseball against playoff bound teams. They won series from the M's and Angels and have won more series in the last 2 weeks than in the 2 months prior to it (at least it feels that way).

Will the Sox make the playoffs? Almost definitely not, but why is it a bad thing for the fans to feel good about the team and to start looking toward the future with hope? I remember a couple of years ago when the Angels blew a 9 game lead in the last month of the season (6 games with 2 weeks to play I believe and 4 games in the last week or something similar). Hope springs eternal in a baseball fans heart - isn't that why they play 162 games each and every season?

No flubbie fans here, just some fans who are finally seeing their favorite team show some signs of life late in the season and enjoying the ride...

GO SOX!!!

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Sometimes I wonder why I'm a Sox fan, and then I think about the local alternative. Then I need to take a Prozac.

Well just because you live in Chicago doesn't mean you have to root for a team from Chicago. I live in California and I follow a team from Chicago...

Also I'll take it that you think optimism is bad, since you chose to ignore that part of my reply.

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I don't see anyone screaming, "World Series here we come!" in this thread. Probably the Sox have been so pathetic this season after so much optimism to start that any sign of life is reason to celebrate. Well, recently the Sox have shown signs of life, playing good solid baseball against playoff bound teams. They won series from the M's and Angels and have won more series in the last 2 weeks than in the 2 months prior to it (at least it feels that way).

Will the Sox make the playoffs? Almost definitely not, but why is it a bad thing for the fans to feel good about the team and to start looking toward the future with hope? I remember a couple of years ago when the Angels blew a 9 game lead in the last month of the season (6 games with 2 weeks to play I believe and 4 games in the last week or something similar). Hope springs eternal in a baseball fans heart - isn't that why they play 162 games each and every season?

No flubbie fans here, just some fans who are finally seeing their favorite team show some signs of life late in the season and enjoying the ride...

GO SOX!!!

Thank You...

Iwritecode
08-12-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
Well No, Since I live in California I don't get Chicago Sports Talk.

Your saying this like Optimism is a Bad thing, and Your making it sound like only Flub Fans are optimistic, and with that they are Bad and Wrong. Every Person who is a fan of a team in any sport Football Basketball Hockey etc. Are Optimistic about the team that they follow, Everyone here is optimistic about the Sox because they are Fans of the White Sox, makes 100% chance to me, they are Fans of the Team, Not a hard concept for me to follow. Maybe because your an elder Sox fan and have had to deal with this team for Longer than I, but you know what? Your Here. At a Chicago White Sox FAN website. So in a way your Optimistic, I mean would you really waste your time writing articles about a team--whether they are positive or negative-- that you hate?

There is a fine line between optimism and blind faith. I can hope the Sox come back without actually expecting it to come true. I aways hope for the Sox to win. Do I actually expect it though? No usually.

Ol Aches & Pains
08-12-2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


it would be tempting but i would be afraid that she will kick my arse. :D:

Your arse ? Goodness me, you are a Long Distance Fan, aren't you? Which side of the pond are you on? :smile:

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


There is a fine line between optimism and blind faith. I can hope the Sox come back without actually expecting it to come true. I aways hope for the Sox to win. Do I actually expect it though? No usually.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines...

fan-(n) Infromal An ardent devotee; enthusiastic

optimism-(n) A tendancy to expect the best possible outcome or dwell on the most hopeful aspects of a situation.

Kind of goes hand in hand in my opinion. My ponit stays the same All Fans are Optimistic if they truly are Fans of the team, It's what it's all about, Thats why you follow the team!!!!

Let the people think what they want, because I don't have a time machine and can't tell you if the Sox will get to the playoffs or if they'll win a World Series, it's all speculation. That's why they play the games, You never know what's gonna happen.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


Your arse ? Goodness me, you are a Long Distance Fan, aren't you? Which side of the pond are you on? :smile:

i am a wannebe.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I don't see anyone screaming, "World Series here we come!" in this thread. Probably the Sox have been so pathetic this season after so much optimism to start that any sign of life is reason to celebrate. Well, recently the Sox have shown signs of life, playing good solid baseball against playoff bound teams. They won series from the M's and Angels and have won more series in the last 2 weeks than in the 2 months prior to it (at least it feels that way).

Will the Sox make the playoffs? Almost definitely not, but why is it a bad thing for the fans to feel good about the team and to start looking toward the future with hope? I remember a couple of years ago when the Angels blew a 9 game lead in the last month of the season (6 games with 2 weeks to play I believe and 4 games in the last week or something similar). Hope springs eternal in a baseball fans heart - isn't that why they play 162 games each and every season?

No flubbie fans here, just some fans who are finally seeing their favorite team show some signs of life late in the season and enjoying the ride...

GO SOX!!!

I can't get excited about the annual salary drive. Sorry.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Well just because you live in Chicago doesn't mean you have to root for a team from Chicago. I live in California and I follow a team from Chicago...

Also I'll take it that you think optimism is bad, since you chose to ignore that part of my reply.

I've been a Sox fan for 47 years of my 52. I've seen one pennant in that time. We've played in and lost one world series. I was in fourth grade. I have seen three additional playoff appearances in which we've won zero home games and been knocked out in the first round every time. Stick around that long and tell me how optimisitic you are. The last time the Sox won the World Series my parents weren't born. One of them has been dead for seven years. The last time the Sox won the pennant my grandfather, who died 31 years ago at the age of 82 was 28 years old. He saw the Sox play in three more World Series than I did, and those extras all came by the time he was 30.

We've had at least one Sox fan in that line of the family for the entire history of the ball club, and that's all this pathetic excuse for a major league franchise has managed to accomplish.

I don't think optimism is bad, but you tell me what there is to be optimisitic about!

:gallas

"Coming soon to a ballpark near you: 'The Kids Can Play III'!"

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum




I don't think optimism is bad, but you tell me what there is to be optimisitic about!


Obviously not much for you. Your either a Fan or Not, that's the bottom line. I'm here, Your Here, You Write Columns About this Team, unless you get a kick out of writing columns badmouthing the team that your supposedly a Fan for...

There's such a thing as too much optimism, I'll give you that, but how much farther down the scale the opposite way does the line blur between Fan or Not? Too pessimistic also exsists.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


The American Heritage Dictionary defines...

fan-(n) Infromal An ardent devotee; enthusiastic

optimism-(n) A tendancy to expect the best possible outcome or dwell on the most hopeful aspects of a situation.

Kind of goes hand in hand in my opinion. My ponit stays the same All Fans are Optimistic if they truly are Fans of the team, It's what it's all about, Thats why you follow the team!!!!

Let the people think what they want, because I don't have a time machine and can't tell you if the Sox will get to the playoffs or if they'll win a World Series, it's all speculation. That's why they play the games, You never know what's gonna happen.

Oh, I'm a fanatic, which is the word from which "fan" is derived. I bleed when the Sox lose. I do a lot of bleeding.

Am I pessimistic or optimistic. Well, considering the two local options in the sport, I think the Sox have a better chance at winning anything before the Cubs do. Unfortunately, I think that the Sox will do it when hell freezes over and the Cubs will follow about 100 years later.

As far as not knowing what's going to happen, you are wrong. There is something called H. Vickery's law which covers that. Simply put it is that if anything good happens to the Sox, it will be followed immediately by a disaster of epic proportions.

Some examples:

Sox win World Series in 1906. Sox don't see another one for 11 years.

Sox put together a juggernaut that wins 100 games in 1917. WWI drops them to sixth place.

Sox come back to win the pennant in 1919. Players sell off the World Series for 30 pieces of silver and win nothing for 40 years.

Sox win first pennant in 40 years. Bill Veeck sells off all his prospect for a bunch of losers.

Sox lead for most of the season in 1967, collapse the final week and within three years lose 106 games.

Sox win division by 20 games in 1983. Collapse in 1984.

After wandering in the desert for about 5-6 years, Sox hire Larry Himes as GM. He makes four brilliant first round draft picks and is fired for being unable to bring the Sox to Point C.

Sox win division in 1993, lose in playoffs, seem poised to win again in 1994 when their owner plays Lead Hawk in forcing players to strike. Sox collapse when they come back in 1995.

Sox win division in 2000, barely and hire Prof. Chaos as new GM.

And that's just what I could think of in a couple of minutes off the top of my head. Starting to get the picture about this team?

It's a fundamental law of nature, folks.

Those of us who are longtime Sox fans obviously are latent mashochists.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Obviously not much for you. Your either a Fan or Not, that's the bottom line. I'm here, Your Here, You Write Columns About this Team, unless you get a kick out of writing columns badmouthing the team that your supposedly a Fan for...

There's such a thing as too much optimism, I'll give you that, but how much farther down the scale the opposite way does the line blur between Fan or Not? Too pessimistic also exsists.

There is a difference between pessimism and realism, too. I have become a realist. Chicago has such great fans that the owners can and do get away with murder and the fans just say, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" every time they get kicked in the butt. I've come to the time in my life where I've had to say, "No more."

voodoochile
08-12-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I can't get excited about the annual salary drive. Sorry.

Salary drive for who? Everyone who matters is either already signed, years away from arbitration or has been good all year. Which one of these players is actively performing better because they are looking for a better paycheck?

voodoochile
08-12-2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I've been a Sox fan for 47 years of my 52. I've seen one pennant in that time. We've played in and lost one world series. I was in fourth grade. I have seen three additional playoff appearances in which we've won zero home games and been knocked out in the first round every time. Stick around that long and tell me how optimisitic you are. The last time the Sox won the World Series my parents weren't born. One of them has been dead for seven years. The last time the Sox won the pennant my grandfather, who died 31 years ago at the age of 82 was 28 years old. He saw the Sox play in three more World Series than I did, and those extras all came by the time he was 30.

We've had at least one Sox fan in that line of the family for the entire history of the ball club, and that's all this pathetic excuse for a major league franchise has managed to accomplish.

I don't think optimism is bad, but you tell me what there is to be optimisitic about!

:gallas

"Coming soon to a ballpark near you: 'The Kids Can Play III'!"

The math is all wrong on your grandfathers info. The last pennant was in 1959 and if your grandfather died when he was 82 in 1971, then there is no way he was 28 in 1959 nor was the final one of the 3 pennants before he was 30...

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Salary drive for who? Everyone who matters is either already signed, years away from arbitration or has been good all year. Which one of these players is actively performing better because they are looking for a better paycheck?

Here is a list of people who are only signed through 2002:

Biddle
Buehrle
CLAYTON (think he might want to put some free agency numbers up?)
Crede
Garland
Ginter
Glover
Harris
Johnson
Konerko
Liefer
Parque
Paul
Ritchie (well, he's obviously not on one)
Rowand
Wright

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


The math is all wrong on your grandfathers info. The last pennant was in 1959 and if your grandfather died when he was 82 in 1971, then there is no way he was 28 in 1959 nor was the final one of the 3 pennants before he was 30...

First off, that was a typo which should have said the last World Series occurred before he was 30.

I'll repeat the other part in question:
He saw the Sox play in three more World Series than I did, and those extras all came by the time he was 30.

Now it stands to reason that my grandfather is older than I am, and that if he is deceased, which he has been for 31 years, that the additional pennants he saw were all before I was born. They were. And they were all by the time he was 30.

Chisox_cali
08-12-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum




As far as not knowing what's going to happen, you are wrong. There is something called H. Vickery's law which covers that. Simply put it is that if anything good happens to the Sox, it will be followed immediately by a disaster of epic proportions.




Yeah because we all know that is a widely understood and agreeded on principle that's in all the books

Whatever that's just an assumption and observation. You can assume that they will suck but you don't know for sure, it's physically impossible. Assumption is the mother of all F up's and of course it makes an ass out of You and Me.

But who cares! If you don't want to be a White Sox Fans anymore go ahead, I could care less if you are or not, I'm not gonna tell you to be pessimistic or optimistic. If other fans want to be either So be it.

We were all brought here based on one thing, and if since then you've abandoned that that's your choice. I'll be rooting for these guys till the day I die and not a milli-second sooner. Maybe you can use that law to make an assumption for when I'm gonna die, cause I'd like to know when I should stop rooting for my team, no matter what.


GO SOX!!!!!!!

Mathew
08-12-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


The M's for one reason: Ichiro. If you don't like Ichiro, you don't like baseball.

Chalk me up for not liking baseball then. I hate Seattle as much as I hate New York and Cleaveland/Minny. I know he is a good baseball player, however I don't see our right fielder parading around like a pop star. I am glad he doesn't go by just Magglio. I don't like the fans in Seattle one bit, that series we had there made me sour on them. This is a bitter rant on a winning team by a fan of a losing one, but I really don't like Ichiro and certainly don't like Seattle.

TornLabrum
08-12-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali



Yeah because we all know that is a widely understood and agreeded on principle that's in all the books

Whatever that's just an assumption and observation. You can assume that they will suck but you don't know for sure, it's physically impossible. Assumption is the mother of all F up's and of course it makes an ass out of You and Me.

But who cares! If you don't want to be a White Sox Fans anymore go ahead,

Did I say I didn't want to be a White Sox fan? Speaking of assuming!!!!!!!!!

And as far as H. Vickery's law is concerned, it's as much a part of the fabric of the universe as Newton's laws of motion or the law of universal gravitation. It is not a guess. it is a statement that under a given set of conditions a certain phenomenon will occur. It has never failed. Not once.

I could care less if you are or not, I'm not gonna tell you to be pessimistic or optimistic. If other fans want to be either So be it.

Not to nitpick (but yes, I am nitpicking again), but the phrase is "I couldn't care less. Otherwise you are telling me that you do care whether or not we are optimists or pessimists.

We were all brought here based on one thing, and if since then you've abandoned that that's your choice. I'll be rooting for these guys till the day I die and not a milli-second sooner. Maybe you can use that law to make an assumption for when I'm gonna die, cause I'd like to know when I should stop rooting for my team, no matter what.

Again with the assumption that I've abandoned anything. The only thing I've abandoned is childish/Cubbyish optimism that we're going to do anything like win more than one pennant every 40-50 years.

So how many times have you seen the Sox in the World Series? What is the Sox record on the road this year? (They have 21 or 22 of those games left, you know.) Tell me what there is to be optimistic about? Is The Chairman going to sell the team tomorrow?

I should probably point out that I have a peculiar quirk in my personality. I am extremely loyal to those people and those causes to which I become attached. I'm loyal, sir. But just I'm not blind.

voodoochile
08-13-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Here is a list of people who are only signed through 2002:

Biddle
Buehrle
CLAYTON (think he might want to put some free agency numbers up?)
Crede
Garland
Ginter
Glover
Harris
Johnson
Konerko
Liefer
Parque
Paul
Ritchie (well, he's obviously not on one)
Rowand
Wright

Of that list, only Clayton (who is gone) is an unrestricted FA. Of the rest, most of them aren't even arbitration eligible yet. My point stands. Of the players who really matter to this team, most of them are already signed or are at most arbitration eligible.

Konerko and Buehrle have both had great years all year long, so saying they are suddenly on a salary drive is ridiculous. Here is my break down of the rest...

Biddle (unimportant to the future of the team - having a crappy season anyway)
Buehrle (doing it all year long)
CLAYTON (think he might want to put some free agency numbers up?) (he's gone - and benched, who cares)
Crede (Can have his contract renewed - not arbitration eligible)
Garland (renewable)
Ginter (renewable)
Glover (renewable)
Harris (renewable)
Johnson (arbitration only - having a lousy year and is playing less than 50% of the time)
Konerko (Doing it all year long)
Liefer (arbitration - bench player)
Parque (arbitration - possible salary drive candidate)
Paul (arbitration or renewable, I don't know which, but not a factor)
Ritchie (well, he's obviously not on one) (arbitration only - probably gone - not currently playing)
Rowand (is he arbitration eligible yet? If so, possible salary drive candidate)
Wright (renewable)

Your argument doesn't hold water under the current CBA. Of course who knows what the new one will bring...

Chisox_cali
08-13-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

Did I say I didn't want to be a White Sox fan? Speaking of assuming!!!!!!!!!

All right you got me there I'll admit.

And as far as H. Vickery's law is concerned, it's as much a part of the fabric of the universe as Newton's laws of motion or the law of universal gravitation. It is not a guess. it is a statement that under a given set of conditions a certain phenomenon will occur. It has never failed. Not once.

Alright, In your mind, whatever. It really doesnt say anything about the future, it just assumes that if something good happens eventually something bad will. It doesnt say when these things could happen. By that logic you could say that because airplanes were invented it was a sign that they would be used as weapons on 9/11. A sox example Mark Buehrle it was good that he won 16 games in his first full season,, nothing bad happened this year, he's probably better, but I'm sure if when he's 45 and he gets into a car crash or something that 2001 season is to blame right?
Sorry I just don't buy it.


Not to nitpick (but yes, I am nitpicking again), but the phrase is "I couldn't care less. Otherwise you are telling me that you do care whether or not we are optimists or pessimists.

Whatever Teach, You get the point.

So how many times have you seen the Sox in the World Series? What is the Sox record on the road this year? (They have 21 or 22 of those games left, you know.) Tell me what there is to be optimistic about? Is The Chairman going to sell the team tomorrow?

Let's see none, I'm only 18, 18 is not a long period of time. Like I said I think optimism comes with being a fan if your not optimistic in any degree, I really don't think your a fan. But that's just me. I like our Young Team. They are exciting to watch. But I'm sure that they'll all be traded in one huge group intentionally for no players in return right?

I should probably point out that I have a peculiar quirk in my personality. I am extremely loyal to those people and those causes to which I become attached. I'm loyal, sir. But just I'm not blind.

I don't get how loyalty equals badmouthing the team publically and not beleive they will accomplish anything. But I'm sure it's just me.

All you Elder Doom and Gloom Sox fans can depress the Hell out of Me.

doublem23
08-13-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali



Yeah because we all know that is a widely understood and agreeded on principle that's in all the books


Actually, cali...

H. Vickery's Law (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=H)...

:)

Though I agree with VC and Cali. I like to be optimistic, and I always like to, at least, hope that all will be good for the Sox. Realistically speaking? This team is as dead as the flagpole dancers.

A kid can dream, can't he?

Chisox_cali
08-13-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Actually, cali...

H. Vickery's Law (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=H)...

:)

Though I agree with VC and Cali. I like to be optimistic, and I always like to, at least, hope that all will be good for the Sox. Realistically speaking? This team is as dead as the flagpole dancers.

A kid can dream, can't he?

I didn't mean here at WSI, I meant in the world. At least I'm not alone, I was begining to feel like I was the only one ... :)

DVG
08-13-2002, 05:45 AM
I'll make a prediction. I say sometime this month or next (perhaps
the last homestand was the start) the team will get hot and play very well, finishing above .500 and/or a respectable distance
behind Minnesota. There is precedence for my prediction. There
have been years where the team starts out poorly, then when
they are so far out of it that you need a telescope to find them,
they suddenly catch fire and look like a completely different team.
1987, 1989, 1997 and 1998 are years that come to mind. And
2001, as well. I say they'll finish a close enough distance behind
the Twins that we'll spend the winter playing our usual game of
"if only..." ("if only they had played well in June and July..." etc.)

TornLabrum
08-13-2002, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Of that list, only Clayton (who is gone) is an unrestricted FA. Of the rest, most of them aren't even arbitration eligible yet. My point stands. Of the players who really matter to this team, most of them are already signed or are at most arbitration eligible.

Konerko and Buehrle have both had great years all year long, so saying they are suddenly on a salary drive is ridiculous. Here is my break down of the rest...

Biddle (unimportant to the future of the team - having a crappy season anyway)
Buehrle (doing it all year long)
CLAYTON (think he might want to put some free agency numbers up?) (he's gone - and benched, who cares)
Crede (Can have his contract renewed - not arbitration eligible)
Garland (renewable)
Ginter (renewable)
Glover (renewable)
Harris (renewable)
Johnson (arbitration only - having a lousy year and is playing less than 50% of the time)
Konerko (Doing it all year long)
Liefer (arbitration - bench player)
Parque (arbitration - possible salary drive candidate)
Paul (arbitration or renewable, I don't know which, but not a factor)
Ritchie (well, he's obviously not on one) (arbitration only - probably gone - not currently playing)
Rowand (is he arbitration eligible yet? If so, possible salary drive candidate)
Wright (renewable)

Your argument doesn't hold water under the current CBA. Of course who knows what the new one will bring...

I'll bet it doesn't bring about a fundamental change in the general principle that when you are year to year you get paid based on your performance, which often boils down to the player arguing his stats, which are really nice to build up as the season winds down. Every one of those "renewable" guys is going to offer the club a figure. Just what do you think the players' figures are going to be based on? Congeniality?

TornLabrum
08-13-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


[Regarding H. Vickery's law]

Alright, In your mind, whatever. It really doesnt say anything about the future, it just assumes that if something good happens eventually something bad will. It doesnt say when these things could happen. By that logic you could say that because airplanes were invented it was a sign that they would be used as weapons on 9/11. A sox example Mark Buehrle it was good that he won 16 games in his first full season,, nothing bad happened this year, he's probably better, but I'm sure if when he's 45 and he gets into a car crash or something that 2001 season is to blame right?
Sorry I just don't buy it..

Au contraire, it does predict the future. I formulated the law in the early '90s, before the '94 strike in fact. It has predicted disaster after both decent teams.

Also, the law applies to large scale events, what will happen to the Sox as a team, not what will happen to individual players.

Your analogy is like saying the second law of thermodynamics is wrong because of the decrease in entropy within organisms, ignoring the overall increase in the entropy of the universe.

Regarding World Series appearances: Let's see none, I'm only 18, 18 is not a long period of time. Like I said I think optimism comes with being a fan if your not optimistic in any degree, I really don't think your a fan. But that's just me. I like our Young Team. They are exciting to watch. But I'm sure that they'll all be traded in one huge group intentionally for no players in return right?

Okay, I'm approximately three times your age and I've seen one more World Series than you on the South Side. That should tell you something about misplaced optimism. Of course we Sox fans are a resiliant bunch. We all started out just like you are now. it takes decades of being beaten down to get us to the point I'm at. Nearly five decades in my case.

On loyalty: I don't get how loyalty equals badmouthing the team publically and not beleive they will accomplish anything. But I'm sure it's just me.

Let me ask you something. Is criticism of things that are wrong within an institution disloyal? Criticism does not imply disloyalty. It implies dissatisfaction with the way things are and the hope for a change in the situation to improve conditions.

All you Elder Doom and Gloom Sox fans can depress the Hell out of Me.

Watching the White Sox go 43 years now without a World Series appearance depresses me. You'll learn, though. That's the one thing that's inevitable. The optimism of youth eventually gives way to experience. Those who never learn from experience are call Cubs fans.

voodoochile
08-13-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I'll bet it doesn't bring about a fundamental change in the general principle that when you are year to year you get paid based on your performance, which often boils down to the player arguing his stats, which are really nice to build up as the season winds down. Every one of those "renewable" guys is going to offer the club a figure. Just what do you think the players' figures are going to be based on? Congeniality?

If they renewed Buehrle last year at $310K (down from their initial offer of #325 which he rejected) what makes you think that their stats have anything at all to do with the contract they will be offered?

:reinsy
"God I love young players. It almost feels like I own them..."

TornLabrum
08-13-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


If they renewed Buehrle last year at $310K (down from their initial offer of #325 which he rejected) what makes you think that their stats have anything at all to do with the contract they will be offered?

:reinsy
"God I love young players. It almost feels like I own them..."

Buehrle was a first year player and was offered a salary increase of roughly 63 percent, which he turned down. I'd love to get that kind of percentage raise after one year on the job!

voodoochile
08-13-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Buehrle was a first year player and was offered a salary increase of roughly 63 percent, which he turned down. I'd love to get that kind of percentage raise after one year on the job!

The point is that none of these guys is due to make big money next year and there is nothing they can do about it. Regardless of how they perform, the club holds all the cards. The final offer was down from the $325K they initially offered because Buehrle rejected it, so they renewed him at a lower price to make a statement about control. Heck Parque got a 2 year $2 million contract after having a worse first year than Buehrle did.

By all standards for pitchers, Buehrle was and is underpaid after the season he had. Yes, it was his first year. Yes, it was a substantial percentage raise, but a guy who wins 16 games with an ERA in the mid-3's deserves more than $310K. That is obvious and if you stop playing devil's advocate, you will admit it. By the standards of the "real world" it is a generous raise. By the standards of MLB it was cheap. You know as well as anyone that analogys between people who have "real jobs" and people who play professional sports for a living just don't work...

Jerry_Manuel
08-13-2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
They are exciting to watch. But I'm sure that they'll all be traded in one huge group intentionally for no players in return right?

All you Elder Doom and Gloom Sox fans can depress the Hell out of Me.

As long as Reinsdorf owns the team, and they have higher paid players on the team, they'll be moved.

Depress ya, eh? Wait awhile, it'll get worse.



Originally posted by doublem23
I like to be optimistic, and I always like to, at least, hope that all will be good for the Sox.

It's easier to expect nothing like in 2000, and if they do well go along for the ride.

Originally posted by TornLabrum
Okay, I'm approximately three times your age and I've seen one more World Series than you on the South Side. That should tell you something about misplaced optimism. Of course we Sox fans are a resiliant bunch. We all started out just like you are now. it takes decades of being beaten down to get us to the point I'm at. Nearly five decades in my case.


Once Reinsdorf takes his act out of town things will look up. Unless he puts his son in charge of the team.

Chisox_cali
08-13-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Au contraire, it does predict the future. I formulated the law in the early '90s, before the '94 strike in fact. It has predicted disaster after both decent teams.

Hmmm seems like you may have doubted your own theory if it took you that long of a time to formulate it. If it is so logical you could have come up with iy when you were my age. And when I mean future, I'm talking about names, dates, etc. You can use instances in the past to predict weather patterns to, doesn't always mean that the weatherman is right.



Your analogy is like saying the second law of thermodynamics is wrong because of the decrease in entropy within organisms, ignoring the overall increase in the entropy of the universe.

Ok we get the point your waaaaaaaaaaaaaay older, and waaaaay smarter than me. You don't need to go over my head to avoid the point.

TornLabrum
08-13-2002, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Hmmm seems like you may have doubted your own theory if it took you that long of a time to formulate it. If it is so logical you could have come up with iy when you were my age. And when I mean future, I'm talking about names, dates, etc. You can use instances in the past to predict weather patterns to, doesn't always mean that the weatherman is right.

Okay, you obviously don't understand how a scientific law or principle works. It's not like Miss Cleo or Irene Hughes. The law of gravity doesn't have to predict that a ball will be thrown in the air on August 23, 2036 at 5:00 p.m. CDT it will travel at 32 ft/sec and will land at precisely 5:00:02. What it does have to predict is that any time a ball is thrown into the air at 32 ft/sec, it will land two seconds later. It always happens. You don't even have to specify the initial speed. You can just say it will land. And it always will unless it's traveling faster than 8 km/s with some horizontal component of velocity.

Similarly, if the Sox have any kind of stroke of good fortune AS A TEAM, it will backfire on them almost immediately. It always happens. I don't have to specify the exact circumstances. Just that so-called good fortune is always followed by disaster (see Hayes, Jackie).

Ok we get the point your waaaaaaaaaaaaaay older, and waaaaay smarter than me. You don't need to go over my head to avoid the point.

Not avoiding the point. Your interpretation was incorrect, as I pointed out.

Dadawg_77
08-13-2002, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Similarly, if the Sox have any kind of stroke of good fortune AS A TEAM, it will backfire on them almost immediately. It always happens. I don't have to specify the exact circumstances. Just that so-called good fortune is always followed by disaster (see Hayes, Jackie).


So I guess our only hope is that there is something that isn't fully understood with the H. Vickery's Law. So like law of gravity, Vickery's law can be modified when our universe as Sox fans is more fully understood in the future. Like in today's world there is some evidence (faster then light speed existing) that the Theory of Relativity is as correct as we think it is. For those who might not know, this could totally change the way we view our universe.

TornLabrum
08-13-2002, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


So I guess our only hope is that there is something that isn't fully understood with the H. Vickery's Law. So like law of gravity, Vickery's law can be modified when our universe as Sox fans is more fully understood in the future. Like in today's world there is some evidence (faster then light speed existing) that the Theory of Relativity is as correct as we think it is. For those who might not know, this could totally change the way we view our universe.

Now here's a guy that understands the laws of the universe! One thing I noticed is that the folks who seem to have discovered that light from a quasar is slowing down are from Australia. That immediately makes me suspicious because they're all standing on their heads there anyway so they can be right-side up. I think the blood rushes to it and that causes their perceptions to be faulty. Say I'll have another Foster's. :gulp:

Dadawg_77
08-13-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Now here's a guy that understands the laws of the universe! One thing I noticed is that the folks who seem to have discovered that light from a quasar is slowing down are from Australia. That immediately makes me suspicious because they're all standing on their heads there anyway so they can be right-side up. I think the blood rushes to it and that causes their perceptions to be faulty. Say I'll have another Foster's. :gulp:

LOL, I guess I will :gulp:

Iwritecode
08-14-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Sox win World Series in 1906. Sox don't see another one for 11 years.

Ya know, if the Sox were to win the WS in the next few years and then don't see another one for 11 years, I would be perfectly happy. :D:

34 Inch Stick
08-14-2002, 09:56 AM
At least if it was once every 30 years or so, you could believe they were getting their fair share. It's shocking to think Minnesota, K.C. and Detroit have all won world series in my lifetime but the Sox have not.

TornLabrum
08-14-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Ya know, if the Sox were to win the WS in the next few years and then don't see another one for 11 years, I would be perfectly happy. :D:

And here I was thinking Chicago fans had low expectations!

Dadawg_77
08-14-2002, 11:38 AM
While I would rather see one sooner just winning one in my lifetime would add happiness.

KingXerxes
08-14-2002, 09:24 PM
I've been away for a bit, but it looks as though the ship has been righted (at least for now). The fact that we have only one team to catch and pass is significant, and you never know what can happen. Will we catch Minnesota? It's not probable, but it certainly is possible - we'll see.

Ol Aches & Pains
08-15-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
At least if it was once every 30 years or so, you could believe they were getting their fair share. It's shocking to think Minnesota, K.C. and Detroit have all won world series in my lifetime but the Sox have not.

You have to learn to be patient. They just won it 85 years ago.

:muddy

This team could give a dead man the blues.

Iwritecode
08-16-2002, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
It's not probable, but it certainly is possible - we'll see.

The Sox just gained 1/2 a game tonight and they didn't even play! Woo Hoo! AL central championship here we come!

On a serious note, did the Twins just lose a series (at home no less) to the O's? How bad are they going to fade this year?

voodoochile
08-16-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


The Sox just gained 1/2 a game tonight and they didn't even play! Woo Hoo! AL central championship here we come!

On a serious note, did the Twins just lose a series (at home no less) to the O's? How bad are they going to fade this year?

I think they just lost their third straight series and not to great teams either. Still, for the Sox to even have a chance to get close, the Twins have to completely fall apart. I mean they need a good 6 or 7 game losing streak to start and the Sox need to counter it with a equally long winning streak. Of course next week in Chicago, if the Sox sweep that would be take care of part of those streaks. Still it would be highly unlikely that a team that is still under .500 in mid August would win its division. Has that even happened before?

Going on Tuesday, wish me luck...

GO SOX!

SoxxoS
08-16-2002, 12:50 AM
OK, everything is going as planned in the original post, except for our loss yesterday. Nice to see the Parque we know and love. :(:

RedPinStripes
08-16-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I think they just lost their third straight series and not to great teams either. Still, for the Sox to even have a chance to get close, the Twins have to completely fall apart. I mean they need a good 6 or 7 game losing streak to start and the Sox need to counter it with a equally long winning streak. Of course next week in Chicago, if the Sox sweep that would be take care of part of those streaks. Still it would be highly unlikely that a team that is still under .500 in mid August would win its division. Has that even happened before?

Going on Tuesday, wish me luck...

GO SOX!

I might be going tuesday with Guido. wanna get together for a beer? :gulp:

delben91
08-16-2002, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode

On a serious note, did the Twins just lose a series (at home no less) to the O's? How bad are they going to fade this year?

At the same time, didn't our buzzsaw of a team lose consecutive series to the royals, tigers and those same orioles a few weeks back? And then split with the devil rays? Not to say I don't enjoy the "dream" of the sox catching those twinkies, but seriously folks.....

Iwritecode
08-16-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by delben91
At the same time, didn't our buzzsaw of a team lose consecutive series to the royals, tigers and those same orioles a few weeks back? And then split with the devil rays? Not to say I don't enjoy the "dream" of the sox catching those twinkies, but seriously folks.....

Yes, but the Sox are not longer considered "in the race". Contending teams (which the Twins are supposed to be)shouldn't be losing series after series to bad teams. It's painful to know that the biggest reason the Twins are in first is that the rest of the division sucks so bad this year. They are the tallest midget in the AL central...

voodoochile
08-16-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I might be going tuesday with Guido. wanna get together for a beer? :gulp:

I'll send you an e-mail or a private message...

duke of dorwood
08-16-2002, 12:01 PM
Based on the news of today, they just clinched.

yyz
08-16-2002, 01:16 PM
Getting back to the original scenario posited in this thread (get to 10.5 back by next Monday, sweep the Twins, and then see where it goes):

If 5 of the 6 relevant games this weekend go the right way, we will be right on track. Pedro is going tonight against the Twins - I'm putting that one in the bag. A split of the other two Twins - BoSox games seems reasonable, which leaves it all on the Sox - sweep the A's, avenge the losses in Oakland that turned us around April, and the Twins series next week will be a whole lot more interesting.

I realize this is wildly optimistic, but if you can't hope for a best-case scenario on these boards, where can you? And keep in mind that on August 5th we were 17 games back, now we're 12.5.

TornLabrum
08-16-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by yyz
Getting back to the original scenario posited in this thread (get to 10.5 back by next Monday, sweep the Twins, and then see where it goes):

If 5 of the 6 relevant games this weekend go the right way, we will be right on track. Pedro is going tonight against the Twins - I'm putting that one in the bag. A split of the other two Twins - BoSox games seems reasonable, which leaves it all on the Sox - sweep this A's, avenge the losses in Oakland that turned us around April, and the Twins series next week will be a whole lot more interesting.

I realize this is wildly optimistic, but if you can't hope for a best-case scenario on these boards, where can you? And keep in mind that on August 5th we were 17 games back, now we're 12.5.

Um...haven't you heard? They're going on strike on August 30. Ain't gonna be a rest of the season after that.

Iwritecode
08-16-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Um...haven't you heard? They're going on strike on August 30. Ain't gonna be a rest of the season after that.

So we should definetly expect the Sox to make a good run at the division. I figure they will be 2-3 games out when the strike hits. Just because that's the only thing that could make the strike hurt worse...

Soxheads
08-16-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


So we should definetly expect the Sox to make a good run at the division. I figure they will be 2-3 games out when the strike hits. Just because that's the only thing that could make the strike hurt worse...

For that to happen, wouldn't Minnesota have to drop nearly all their games up until then, and the Sox nearly win them all?

They haven't clinched this division yet!

yyz
08-16-2002, 03:49 PM
Setting a strike date is a bargaining tool. The fact that they needed to use this tool is not a good development, but it does not mean that there *will* be a strike.

Daver
08-16-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by yyz
Setting a strike date is a bargaining tool. The fact that they needed to use this tool is not a good development, but it does not mean that there *will* be a strike.

Every single time a strike date has been set in MLB,there has been a strike,history tells us there will be a strike.

RedPinStripes
08-16-2002, 04:28 PM
I didn't think they were going to strike a while back. I thought they couldn't be that stupid, but after hearing Tom Glavin speak his mind on the way things are going, I can't see how they're going to settle.

These idiots will NOT get what they want by striking. I think fans will stay away much longer this time. I will until JR sells. That will be the only thing that gets me excited enough to go to Comiskey and watch these spoiled brats.

yyz
08-16-2002, 04:36 PM
It's also true that every time they've had labor negotiations in the last 20 years, there has been a strike, but that doesn't mean you could have predicted one with certainty before the season started. In keeping with my earlier spirit of optimism, I still don't think there will be one.

Jason Stark hays a pretty good Q&A on ESPN.com. He says:

"Finally, what are the odds of a strike?
Ah, thought you'd never ask. We still think that despite the lack of progress in the past week, the odds of avoiding a strike are far better than they were eight years ago."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1418650.html

Of course, he also goes on to say:

"In the end, the man who will most determine the fate of this dispute is (who else?) the commish."

So maybe there will be one. If the Sox aren't within 8 games by August 30th, I don't really care. I'll just re-watch last years World Series and start getting up some false hopes and do this:
:gulp:

Twins8791
08-16-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by yyz
Pedro is going tonight against the Twins - I'm putting that one in the bag.

Mays throws a 2-hit CG shutout.
Magic number 28 - for the moment...

Soxheads
08-17-2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Twins8791


Mays throws a 2-hit CG shutout.
Magic number 28 - for the moment...

You seem to be a Twins fan.

RedPinStripes
08-17-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Twins8791


Mays throws a 2-hit CG shutout.
Magic number 28 - for the moment...

Please let him stay. You guys kill trolls too fast.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-17-2002, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Twins8791


Mays throws a 2-hit CG shutout.
Magic number 28 - for the moment...


What? You mean mommy gave you the password to your computer?? Too bad you're wasting the last few minutes before your bed time being a twins troll.

doublem23
08-17-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Please let him stay. You guys kill trolls too fast.

Well, I don't think he's a troll (yet).....

A troll would be all like, "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! You stupid Sox fans! Magic Number is 27, beeeeeeeeeeetches! Go Twins! We are the best team ever! Yeah! Twins! Whoo! Yeah! I like the Twins! Whee! Best! Ever! Yeah! Twins! All right! I like the Twins! Torii! Go Twins! Gnarly! How bout them Twins! Whoo! Go Twins! I love the Twins! Super! Twins! Yeah! Guess who's in first?! That's right, da Twins! Yeah! We're the Twins! Whee! Go Twins! All right, Twins! Screw the Sox! Go Twins, the best baseball team in the whole world! Yeah, Twins!

and it goes on like that.

As far as I'm concerned, he can stay and chat, as long as he doesn't morph into that. /\

voodoochile
08-17-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
A troll would be all like, "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! You stupid Sox fans! Magic Number is 27, beeeeeeeeeeetches! Go Twins! We are the best team ever! Yeah! Twins! Whoo! Yeah! I like the Twins! Whee! Best! Ever! Yeah! Twins! All right! I like the Twins! Torii! Go Twins! Gnarly! How bout them Twins! Whoo! Go Twins! I love the Twins! Super! Twins! Yeah! Guess who's in first?! That's right, da Twins! Yeah! We're the Twins! Whee! Go Twins! All right, Twins! Screw the Sox! Go Twins, the best baseball team in the whole world! Yeah, Twins!

Why did you let JM have your password?

:D:

Daver
08-17-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND



What? You mean mommy gave you the password to your computer?? Too bad you're wasting the last few minutes before your bed time being a twins troll.

Just to set the record straight,just because you are not a fan of the Sox does not mean you are a troll.

Right now we have an Indians fan that is a member,as well as a couple of Twins fans,a couple of Cub fans,and at least one Tigers fan.Being a fan of another team does not mean someone is a troll,this board is for baseball discussion,it is not limited to Sox fans,this site is a biased site for the Sox,but we are not adverse to letting intelligent discussion from anyone being posted here.

Yes we do kill trolls for trolling,but intelligent baseball discussion is welcomed ,no matter what team they are a fan of.

doublem23
08-17-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Why did you let JM have your password?

:D:

Little overboard? :)

voodoochile
08-17-2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Little overboard? :)

Are you saying that my joke is a little overboard, or that your pro-Twinkies rant was too realistic?

If it is the former, I was just taking a chance to rub JM's nose in the fact that he didn't pick the Sox this year and have the guts and decency to go down with the rest of us fans who bravely road on the SS Soxtanic this year...

If it is the latter, nevermind...

doublem23
08-17-2002, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Are you saying that my joke is a little overboard, or that your pro-Twinkies rant was too realistic?

If it is the former, I was just taking a chance to rub JM's nose in the fact that he didn't pick the Sox this year and have the guts and decency to go down with the rest of us fans who bravely road on the SS Soxtanic this year...

If it is the latter, nevermind...

It's the latter....

JM is sooooooooooooo a Twins fan... LMAO! :)

Jerry_Manuel
08-17-2002, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why did you let JM have your password?

:D:

My post wouldn't have been as long. :smile:

Originally posted by daver
This site is a biased site for the Sox,but we are not adverse to letting intelligent discussion from anyone being posted here.


Intelligent discussion. Are you sure I have not been banned? Intelligent thoughts will not be seen or heard from yours truly.

Jerry_Manuel
08-17-2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If it is the former, I was just taking a chance to rub JM's nose in the fact that he didn't pick the Sox this year and have the guts and decency to go down with the rest of us fans who bravely road on the SS Soxtanic this year...

If it is the latter, nevermind...

I won't pick the Sox next year either, unless they do something major. I picked the Twins in March, way before we knew how bad this team would be. I was pretty damn excitied at SoxFest, then the team played a few games and I lost that excitement.


Originally posted by doublem23
It's the latter....

JM is sooooooooooooo a Twins fan... LMAO! :)

You laugh at odd things.

TornLabrum
08-17-2002, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I won't pick the Sox next year either, unless they do something major. I picked the Twins in March, way before we knew how bad this team would be. I was pretty damn excitied at SoxFest, then the team played a few games and I lost that excitement.

One thing there is hope for next year is the continued development of Jon Garland and Danny Wright. Garland looks poised to make the leap next year. Wright is more iffy, but I trust Don Cooper a whole lot more than I did Nardi Contreras. At least the main concern now seems to be something other than pitch count!

:nardi

"Jerry made me do it!"

:KW

"We went to absolutely no expense to develop a white paper report on the injuries suffered by our pitchers in 2001. If we ever get those results, you can be sure that we won't let you suckers in on it."

Twins8791
08-17-2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by daver


Just to set the record straight,just because you are not a fan of the Sox does not mean you are a troll.

Right now we have an Indians fan that is a member,as well as a couple of Twins fans,a couple of Cub fans,and at least one Tigers fan.Being a fan of another team does not mean someone is a troll,this board is for baseball discussion,it is not limited to Sox fans,this site is a biased site for the Sox,but we are not adverse to letting intelligent discussion from anyone being posted here.

Yes we do kill trolls for trolling,but intelligent baseball discussion is welcomed ,no matter what team they are a fan of.

My only two posts so far have contained one opinion (on my team's chances without a full pitching staff) and facts (results and standings) and those only as a counterpoint to the thread's theme.

I would never be as hard on the Sox as some of the posts I have read in this forum. I find it interesting that no one is as harsh talking about a team's flaws as the fans of that team. Or the team's GM. Or manager. Or owner.

I can only commiserate with a group of fans going through this year what I have gone through so many years with my own team and enjoying its current success, knowing it will be short-lived. This is the fate of almost all teams and their fans.

voodoochile
08-17-2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Twins8791


My only two posts so far have contained one opinion (on my team's chances without a full pitching staff) and facts (results and standings) and those only as a counterpoint to the thread's theme.

I would never be as hard on the Sox as some of the posts I have read in this forum. I find it interesting that no one is as harsh talking about a team's flaws as the fans of that team. Or the team's GM. Or manager. Or owner.

I can only commiserate with a group of fans going through this year what I have gone through so many years with my own team and enjoying its current success, knowing it will be short-lived. This is the fate of almost all teams and their fans.

Excellent points. Personally, I couldn't understand what upset everyone about your last post, but I think the Magic Number may have set them off. It reminds many of us what life was like on the ESPN board where trolls used to bombard the site with troll posts all of which contained references to Magic Numbers when applicable.

Personally, I think you got it wrong anyway. The Magic number will never get to zero this year. We should be counting down to the end of baseball as we know it. Personally I think we should all get together and throw a party when it happens. Baseball is giving us our summer evenings back. How cool is that?

Soxheads
08-17-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Twins8791


My only two posts so far have contained one opinion (on my team's chances without a full pitching staff) and facts (results and standings) and those only as a counterpoint to the thread's theme.

I would never be as hard on the Sox as some of the posts I have read in this forum. I find it interesting that no one is as harsh talking about a team's flaws as the fans of that team. Or the team's GM. Or manager. Or owner.

I can only commiserate with a group of fans going through this year what I have gone through so many years with my own team and enjoying its current success, knowing it will be short-lived. This is the fate of almost all teams and their fans.

Well then, welcome aboard. :smile: