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LongDistanceFan
08-10-2002, 07:23 PM
why is it only in the second half of the season, we see a resurgence of clayton. this yr he is now batting 250 and last yr he came on really strong. why is it?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-10-2002, 07:40 PM
Clayton was quoted in the Cubune earlier this week on this very subject. Royce says it's not how you start, it's how you finish.

This will come as news to teammates who were in first-place April 30, fading back May 31, and out of it June 30.

Then again, I highly doubt any of them were surprised to hear Royce's perspective on his play. Strange--I thought finishing strong only counted when you''ve given your best effort the entire length of the competition.

I wonder if Royce would say after passing somebody on the last lap at Indy to finish 32nd? Would he pout over not winning a prize?

:gulp:

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-10-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
why is it only in the second half of the season, we see a resurgence of clayton. this yr he is now batting 250 and last yr he came on really strong. why is it?

He's just a typical worthless dirtbag. He can only do something (still almost nothing) when it doesn't matter anymore.

Roycie is as worthless as a 3 dollar bill.

idseer
08-10-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Clayton was quoted in the Cubune earlier this week on this very subject. Royce says it's not how you start, it's how you finish.

This will come as news to teammates who were in first-place April 30, fading back May 31, and out of it June 30.

Then again, I highly doubt any of them were surprised to hear Royce's perspective on his play. Strange--I thought finishing strong only counted when you''ve given your best effort the entire length of the competition.

I wonder if Royce would say after passing somebody on the last lap at Indy to finish 32nd? Would he pout over not winning a prize?

:gulp:


"it's not how you start, it's how you finish. " sounds more to me like a flippant answer meant to deflect the point of the question. i highly doubt he is suggesting he doesn't try hard from start to finish. i'm sure he just doesn't have an answer . i don't think he's been like this his whole career, tho i haven't checked that.
besides, "it's not how you start, it's how you finish. " is generally a truism. if he in fact ends up at or around his career average, he's done his job. i think any player would agree.

i hope you're not putting the blame for the sox's swoon solely on royce. i'm sure he knows he stunk it up the first half.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-10-2002, 08:47 PM
Judge for yourself what Royce is saying about the relevance of playing well early versus playing well late...

:gulp:

08/03/2002 00:15 am ET
Clayton refuses to go quietly
Shortstop hitting .316 over last 33 starts

By Bob Bellone / Special to MLB.com


ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- The moving men probably haven't finished their summer chores in the home clubhouse at Comiskey Park.

White Sox shortstop Royce Clayton has watched as teammates Ray Durham, Kenny Lofton, Sandy Alomar Jr. and Bob Howry packed their belongings and left in the wake of a flurry of moves before Wednesday's non-waiver trading deadline.

Despite his recent improvement at the plate, Clayton could be next to toddle out of town. And he might not mind.

"I just want an opportunity to play every day because I know I can help a team win," Clayton said after going 3-for-6 and scoring the winning run in the 12th inning of Friday night's 8-5 victory over the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in the opener of a four-game series at Tropicana Field.

"I think I've earned the right to do that," he continued. "Whether it's here or somewhere else, I just want to play baseball."

Clayton has reached base safely in 13 consecutive games and 30 of his last 33 starts, hitting .316 (37-for-117) with 17 runs scored during that span.

"We have two months of baseball to go and I'm going to try to max it out," he said. "I feel kind of left for dead because, even though I'm leading the league in fielding, they always want to say I'm struggling at the bat.

"I'm ahead of last year's pace so I'm just going to try to stay focused whenever I get an opportunity to go in there and make the best of it. I feel like it may be my last game or it's desperation time, and I'm going to fight."

Jerry Manuel isn't surprised by Clayton's recent batting surge.

"He's been a second-half type of player for most of his career," the White Sox manager said. "He had some lapses early in the season -- prolonged lapses -- but when he gets it going, he seems to be able to maintain it for an extended period of time. It was good to see him come through tonight."

Clayton led off the 12th inning with a single and eventually scored the deciding run on a double by Aaron Rowand.

He had a chance for heroics in the ninth inning with runners on first and third and one out, but fireballing right-hander Esteban Yan struck him out to leave the score tied at 5.

Whether a hero or goat in the short term, the slick-fielding infielder is bound for free agency after this season, and the Chicago skyline may soon be in his rearview mirror.

Meanwhile, third baseman Jose Valentin is under contract through next season and seems destined to relocate only a matter of steps to his left while clearing a path to the hot corner for phenom Joe Crede.

Valentin is hitting only .235, but he has contributed 14 home runs and driven in 50 runs. Clayton has six homers and 33 RBIs.

"I've kind of been through a lot the past two months with speculation of being traded and a youth movement where my time may be limited," Clayton said. "But I've always been a guy that finishes strong, and I firmly believe that it's not really how you start, it's how you finish."

Just where, it seems, is another matter.

soxtalker
08-10-2002, 09:10 PM
At this point, I'm very happy to see Clayton really heat up. Maybe it will encourage one of the contending teams to trade for him.

idseer
08-10-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Judge for yourself what Royce is saying about the relevance of playing well early versus playing well late...

:gulp:

08/03/2002 00:15 am ET
Clayton refuses to go quietly
Shortstop hitting .316 over last 33 starts

By Bob Bellone / Special to MLB.com


ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- The moving men probably haven't finished their summer chores in the home clubhouse at Comiskey Park.

:snip:

"I've kind of been through a lot the past two months with speculation of being traded and a youth movement where my time may be limited," Clayton said. "But I've always been a guy that finishes strong, and I firmly believe that it's not really how you start, it's how you finish."

Just where, it seems, is another matter.

i can see how you could take this as being a non-productive attitude, especially considering the lack of success the team has had since his acquisition. but i don't read that much into what he said. i'm sure he'd rather start off strong and finish even stronger.
if it's true he's always done better in the second half, then what other attitude could he take? how would anyone else react? you try to put a positive spin on the way things go.
i certainly don't read into what he said that he doesn't care about his 1st half performance or that he doesn't try as hard as anyone else. he just isn't a very good hitter.

CubKilla
08-10-2002, 11:57 PM
So I guess it's not important to produce early on in the season when your team is struggling. What matters is that you finish strong after your team is, for all intents and purposes, eliminated. Someone tell Royce to take a long walk off a short pier. "F" this guy!

idseer
08-11-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
So I guess it's not important to produce early on in the season when your team is struggling. What matters is that you finish strong after your team is, for all intents and purposes, eliminated. Someone tell Royce to take a long walk off a short pier. "F" this guy!

what is your point here killa? did you not understand what i was saying?
are you suggesting if magglio has a poor first half ... he must not care about producing early?
before simply replying with 'f' this guy or that guy try to get a grasp on the conversation.

CubKilla
08-11-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by idseer


what is your point here killa? did you not understand what i was saying?
are you suggesting if magglio has a poor first half ... he must not care about producing early?
before simply replying with 'f' this guy or that guy try to get a grasp on the conversation.

I read the entire thread before I posted. And I understand what you were saying. But if Maggs or Konerko have a poor start, it doesn't take them until July to get things going. You think Royce has always been a second half guy so you don't blame him for saying what he said about, "it's not how you start, it's how you finish." What I'm saying is that for two seasons now, Clayton has done the same thing at the plate in the first half. Nothing. That is when this Sox team needed him to produce the most. I'll even give Choice a reprieve for this Aprils' lousy BA because the Sox were above .500. What Clayton is saying, in essence, is if JM is going to platoon SS the entire season, then JM would be better off starting Valentin in the first half. Then..... change the entire situation around for Choice in the second half because Choice has always been a "second half" guy. If JM started Valentin the majority of the time in the first half, Choice would be crying about his playing time, just like he did when he was "benched" for not producing earlier in the year. Choice is telling Sox fans to put up with a .100-something average for the first half because he'll catch fire, like he has done his whole career, in the second half. I'm saying that for the past two seasons now, waiting out Royce's .100-something April, May, and June is not an option I want the White Sox to take in 2003. Royce's head is eclipsed only by the head of ShamME Soso.

Additionally, tell the 2000 White Sox squad it's not how you start, it's how you finish, and see what a .500 second half team tells you.

RedPinStripes
08-11-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla



Additionally, tell the 2000 White Sox squad it's not how you start, it's how you finish, and see what a .500 second half team tells you.

All you have to do is talk bad about Royce and Idseer is there to back him up. I saw this coming. I'm sick of arguing about Clayton. If he breaks his nose from the fall after the door hits him in the ass after this year, I won't lose a minute of sleep.

idseer
08-11-2002, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla


I read the entire thread before I posted. And I understand what you were saying. But if Maggs or Konerko have a poor start, it doesn't take them until July to get things going. You think Royce has always been a second half guy so you don't blame him for saying what he said about, "it's not how you start, it's how you finish." What I'm saying is that for two seasons now, Clayton has done the same thing at the plate in the first half. Nothing. That is when this Sox team needed him to produce the most. I'll even give Choice a reprieve for this Aprils' lousy BA because the Sox were above .500. What Clayton is saying, in essence, is if JM is going to platoon SS the entire season, then JM would be better off starting Valentin in the first half. Then..... change the entire situation around for Choice in the second half because Choice has always been a "second half" guy. If JM started Valentin the majority of the time in the first half, Choice would be crying about his playing time, just like he did when he was "benched" for not producing earlier in the year. Choice is telling Sox fans to put up with a .100-something average for the first half because he'll catch fire, like he has done his whole career, in the second half. I'm saying that for the past two seasons now, waiting out Royce's .100-something April, May, and June is not an option I want the White Sox to take in 2003. Royce's head is eclipsed only by the head of ShamME Soso.

Additionally, tell the 2000 White Sox squad it's not how you start, it's how you finish, and see what a .500 second half team tells you.

well see, you DID miss the point. i was taking issue with this quote from PHG ... "Strange--I thought finishing strong only counted when you''ve given your best effort the entire length of the competition. " with this statement he's saying royce was not trying in the first half. i don't think that is a fair characterization. i don't know why royce can't hit the first 3 months and i'm not trying to forgive him for it either. but to say he isn't trying seems a bit much.

i can agree with most of what you say about clayton, but last year he wasn't the only one who didn't hit for a long stretch at the beginning, tho his was no doubt the worst among regs.
but to say he cries about playing time ... i think everyone wants to play. he may be more vocal about it but i don't think that's such a crime. the fact he does play is not his fault is it? i think JM makes those decisions. (or KW ... or JR ... who knows?)
i also agree i don't want royce doing the same thing next year IF he' resigned.
i don't know what his problem is. maybe he should play winter ball (if he doesn't already) so he's in mid-season form when the season starts.

lastly, i still say "it's how you finish that counts' is almost always true. and i'll use the same example you used for the same statement ... ask the sox how they felt about how they finished in 2000!

idseer
08-11-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


All you have to do is talk bad about Royce and Idseer is there to back him up. I saw this coming. I'm sick of arguing about Clayton. If he breaks his nose from the fall after the door hits him in the ass after this year, I won't lose a minute of sleep.

hey! i laid off this topic for a long time. :smile:

plus, i'm not backing him up. since no one else cares to take his side against this constant onslaught, i will. plus, i defend only 2 things about royce ... his fielding, and his desire to play. and i would defend anyone's desire to play!
if he didn't want to play he wouldn't BE so vocal about not being in the lineup ... right? he'd make the same money anyway.

RedPinStripes
08-11-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by idseer


hey! i laid off this topic for a long time. :smile:

.

True. I think the last one made you stay away for a while. It got a litle wild. :smile:

idseer
08-11-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


True. I think the last one made you stay away for a while. It got a litle wild. :smile:

the strange thing is, when we got him, as a 10 or 11 year vet, i didn't even know who he was. i was relieved we were getting a good fielding ss is all. what i WANTED at the time was to go after arod!
this thing with royce is the devil's advocate in me more than anything else. i won't miss royce one iota when he's gone.

RedPinStripes
08-11-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by idseer


the strange thing is, when we got him, as a 10 or 11 year vet, i didn't even know who he was. i was relieved we were getting a good fielding ss is all. what i WANTED at the time was to go after arod!
this thing with royce is the devil's advocate in me more than anything else. i won't miss royce one iota when he's gone.

I knew who he was when he was with the cards as Larussa pushed Ozzie Smith out the door for royce. I thought he'd be something special since Larussa liked him so much. I just think he's over rated. Good glove if it's hit at him. Weak arm, over rated range, bad baserunning, bad hitter, not so good of a team mate from what i read since he's never been my teammate. I don't think he's a bad ss, just not something special like some people try to label him as.

O boy. here we go. :o: :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
08-11-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by idseer
well see, you DID miss the point. i was taking issue with this quote from PHG ... "Strange--I thought finishing strong only counted when you''ve given your best effort the entire length of the competition. " with this statement he's saying royce was not trying in the first half. i don't think that is a fair characterization. i don't know why royce can't hit the first 3 months and i'm not trying to forgive him for it either. but to say he isn't trying seems a bit much...


The only way you could draw that conclusion is to take it out of context, id. What I DID SAY about Clayton stands for itself. Spare the rest of us your twisted interpretation. If you would read the thread, it would be plain obvious.

Specifically, you tried to dismiss Clayton's foot in mouth comment ("it's not really how you start, it's how you finish") as nothing but--to quote you--"a flippant answer."

LMAO! I retorted by quoting for you the entire frickin' article--a complete interview with Clayton--hardly a flip comment at all.

The reason guys like Ordonez don't get raked over the coals for starting slowly is because they never stick their foot in their mouth trying to make excuses for it like Clayton did.

Then you have the stones to accuse somebody else here of misrepresenting what you said? Man, either you've got iron balls or an iron head.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-11-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by idseer


hey! i laid off this topic for a long time. :smile:

plus, i'm not backing him up. since no one else cares to take his side against this constant onslaught, i will. plus, i defend only 2 things about royce ... his fielding, and his desire to play. and i would defend anyone's desire to play!
if he didn't want to play he wouldn't BE so vocal about not being in the lineup ... right? he'd make the same money anyway.

Why should we take his side? He's a slug & everyone knows it. His fielding is nothing special at all. Here's a guy who specializes at getting ground balls hit right to him. I would say he only makes a token effort to get stuff hit in the hole, but that would be far too generous. As for his desire to play, of course he's going to whine & bitch when he's riding the bench, who wouldn't? However, if he really was interested in helping the team then he'd quit mailing in games & actually put out some effort.

All the choice is interested in is collecting a paycheck & holding hands with his daddy Jerry Manuel. We need to disown this bastard child as soon as possible.

idseer
08-11-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


The only way you could draw that conclusion is to take it out of context, id. What I DID SAY about Clayton stands for itself. Spare the rest of us your twisted interpretation. If you would read the thread, it would be plain obvious.

Specifically, you tried to dismiss Clayton's foot in mouth comment ("it's not really how you start, it's how you finish") as nothing but--to quote you--"a flippant answer."

LMAO! I retorted by quoting for you the entire frickin' article--a complete interview with Clayton--hardly a flip comment at all.

The reason guys like Ordonez don't get raked over the coals for starting slowly is because they never stick their foot in their mouth trying to make excuses for it like Clayton did.

Then you have the stones to accuse somebody else here of misrepresenting what you said? Man, either you've got iron balls or an iron head.

we (again) disagree about what the 'context' was. the article was only a whole for the guy who wrote it. comments and quotes are used as the writer sees fit. you say i twist the interpretation, but i'd say you did the interpreting! you interpret he doesn't care and/or doesn't try. i don't see where that is suggested by the article at all.

and killa's comment WAS off the target.
he said:

"So I guess it's not important to produce early on in the season when your team is struggling. What matters is that you finish strong after your team is, for all intents and purposes, eliminated."

no one said it wasn't important to produce early. i didn't say it and neither did clayton. and the last part was totally non-sequitur. just an emotional response attributed to no one.

you have to face the fact that you can't see or hear anything about royce clayton without interpreting it in the worst possible light. he says and does stuff that most other players do, but he's the team goat. you know it, i know it, everyone knows it.

i would personally love to interview clayton and ask him some very direct questions about these last 2 years. a 'no spin' interview! the problem is tho, that if he said things that were indeed interesting or heartfelt ... no one here would believe him.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-11-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by idseer

...i would personally love to interview clayton and ask him some very direct questions about these last 2 years. a 'no spin' interview! the problem is tho, that if he said things that were indeed interesting or heartfelt ... no one here would believe him.

Speaking personally, I wish you had the opportunity to interview him, too. I can only expect (hope?) that the journalists covering the Sox are attempting to be as objective as possible in capturing what Clayton said and what he meant.

I'm on the record for doubting their crediblity--quite a few times, as I recall.

:gulp:

Soxboyrob
08-12-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND

Why should we take his side? He's a slug & everyone knows it. His fielding is nothing special at all. Here's a guy who specializes at getting ground balls hit right to him. I would say he only makes a token effort to get stuff hit in the hole, but that would be far too generous.

I still fail to see any evidence to support this assertion about Royce and his supposed lack of range. Please show me evidence of this lack of range. I'm not a Royce backer nor a Royce hater. I like his solid defense and get sick of seeing him made out to be the reason this team is horrible. And it's fine with me if the Sox think Jose is the guy for the SS position. I like him too.

Clayton is being surpassed in Range this year by only ARod, Neifi Perez and Mike Bordick in the AL. That's fairly solid company. Historically, Royce has the better career range numbers than Jose. Both lateral range and throwing strength help to bolster a player's range numbers, so he's obviously got enough of an arm to be among the league leaders every year.

Clayton was brought here to be a defensive stallwart and provide a .250 stick. Right now, he's doing exactly that, despite the slow start (though nowhere near as bad as in 2001). Frank is the player who is most clearly not living up to his expectations this season.

It seems reasonable for fans to want a better overall shortstop than Clayton. I sure do. But blaming him so much for this season's problems is sorta goofy. I blame the guys that didn't live up to their billing....Ritchie, Thomas, Foulke, management, etc.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob




Clayton was brought here to be a defensive stallwart and provide a .250 stick. Right now, he's doing exactly that, despite the slow start (though nowhere near as bad as in 2001). Frank is the player who is most clearly not living up to his expectations this season.



he was trade for b/c kw thought he could turn around and re-trade him for other prospects. he has went and said this on several comments. he also said that he went against advice not to make the trade.

second, this yr posters are not blaming him for the season.

next, it is his personality that label him as cancer. if you see in the msg where he was talking, he said that he was leading the league in fielding. overall i am not too impress with his fielding.

Soxboyrob
08-12-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


he was trade for b/c kw thought he could turn around and re-trade him for other prospects. he has went and said this on several comments. he also said that he went against advice not to make the trade.

second, this yr posters are not blaming him for the season.

next, it is his personality that label him as cancer. if you see in the msg where he was talking, he said that he was leading the league in fielding. overall i am not too impress with his fielding.

I've always heard suggestions about our acquiring him w/ the purpose of trading him. I've never actually personally heard Kenny say this was his trade objective.

Maybe posters aren't blaming Clayton for this season, but he seems to be portrayed as the player most responsible for the problems during the last two years.

Lastly, I don't know a thing about his personality. Never met him. All I have to go on is what I've heard Hawk, Sweika and J Hood (both Score hosts) say....they all concur that Royce is very well liked on the team and is one of the most personable guys on the club. I've heard suggestions to the contrary about Royce but never from an actual quotable source. For all I know, Hawk's talking out his butt, Sweika's dating him and JHood is his homie, but they've all said that this talk about him being a "cancer" is quite silly. Until I see something otherwise, I have no reason to doubt them. Hawk actually told it directly to my best buddy, so it wasn't his typical on-air babble.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I've always heard suggestions about our acquiring him w/ the purpose of trading him. I've never actually personally heard Kenny say this was his trade objective.

Maybe posters aren't blaming Clayton for this season, but he seems to be portrayed as the player most responsible for the problems during the last two years.

Lastly, I don't know a thing about his personality. Never met him. All I have to go on is what I've heard Hawk, Sweika and J Hood (both Score hosts) say....they all concur that Royce is very well liked on the team and is one of the most personable guys on the club. I've heard suggestions to the contrary about Royce but never from an actual quotable source. For all I know, Hawk's talking out his butt, Sweika's dating him and JHood is his homie, but they've all said that this talk about him being a "cancer" is quite silly. Until I see something otherwise, I have no reason to doubt them. Hawk actually told it directly to my best buddy, so it wasn't his typical on-air babble.

lenny has said it in the papers, honest.

ref to @2 para, i don't know about that, but i will give way to your perception

ref #3 do you honestly think that hawk and dj is going to tell the truth? there is plenty of talk when, after 9/11, royce did not go out into the field and there are several other examples.

Soxboyrob
08-12-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


ref #3 do you honestly think that hawk and dj is going to tell the truth? there is plenty of talk when, after 9/11, royce did not go out into the field and there are several other examples.

I know what you mean about Hawk telling the truth, but as I noted in my last post, this was said off the record to a friend of mine and believe me when I tell you, Hawk is BRUTALLY honest when speaking off the record. I've never heard Hawk address the "Clayton is a cancer" issue during a game, but off the record he's said Royce is as nice a guy as can be found on this club. Maybe they're just golfing buddies and that's made Harrelson's opinion biased. Couldn't tell you.

delben91
08-12-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Lastly, I don't know a thing about his personality. Never met him. All I have to go on is what I've heard Hawk, Sweika and J Hood (both Score hosts) say....they all concur that Royce is very well liked on the team and is one of the most personable guys on the club. I've heard suggestions to the contrary about Royce but never from an actual quotable source. For all I know, Hawk's talking out his butt, Sweika's dating him and JHood is his homie, but they've all said that this talk about him being a "cancer" is quite silly. Until I see something otherwise, I have no reason to doubt them. Hawk actually told it directly to my best buddy, so it wasn't his typical on-air babble.

Ok, I just tried it, and it's an old thread, so the link to the article in it no longer seems to apply. However, some of the posts quote parts of the article about Royce in the clubhouse. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=7680&s=&perpage=15&pagenumber=1&display=show)

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by delben91




i am starting to like you more and more. good post.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I know what you mean about Hawk telling the truth, but as I noted in my last post, this was said off the record to a friend of mine and believe me when I tell you, Hawk is BRUTALLY honest when speaking off the record. I've never heard Hawk address the "Clayton is a cancer" issue during a game, but off the record he's said Royce is as nice a guy as can be found on this club. Maybe they're just golfing buddies and that's made Harrelson's opinion biased. Couldn't tell you.

this guy is in front of the media and knows his way around it. he is a company man, do you hanestly expect less of him. just b/c i will tell you its off the record, doesn't mean that i am going to tell you the truth. in addition, look he knew this was still going to get around. so he did a little spin. in other words, he played your friend.

delben91
08-12-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i am starting to like you more and more. good post.

I aim to please, the respect is mutual.

:gulp:

Soxboyrob
08-12-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


this guy is in front of the media and knows his way around it. he is a company man, do you hanestly expect less of him. just b/c i will tell you its off the record, doesn't mean that i am going to tell you the truth. in addition, look he knew this was still going to get around. so he did a little spin. in other words, he played your friend.

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly on this subject. Hawk creates job security for himself if he can sell positive feelings about the club to the fans. However, he's been quite negative about certain players and members of management when talking to my buddy off the record, so it's not as if he's always painting a positive spin.

I'd love to be able to read the article about which there was supposedly a link a couple of posts earlier. That link was to an unrelated article. Like I said, I haven't really seen anything about Royce being a clubhouse problem. I've heard plenty of discussion about it but never really seen it in print. If you can find any kind of link, I'd like to check it out.

I'm not as concerned about whether Royce is nicer than Santa Claus or a bigger prick than the Grinch. I just think he's unfairly painted as having no range in comparison to Jose when all historical stats tell the story otherwise. Why is Clayton's defensive stat history so conveniently ignored here? Now, if you want to bitch about the fact that Roycey always chooses to swing for a home run ala Sammy, regardless of the situation, then I'm right there with ya. That drives me nuts about the guy.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Ordinarily, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly on this subject. Hawk creates job security for himself if he can sell positive feelings about the club to the fans. However, he's been quite negative about certain players and members of management when talking to my buddy off the record, so it's not as if he's always painting a positive spin.

I'd love to be able to read the article about which there was supposedly a link a couple of posts earlier. That link was to an unrelated article. Like I said, I haven't really seen anything about Royce being a clubhouse problem. I've heard plenty of discussion about it but never really seen it in print. If you can find any kind of link, I'd like to check it out.

I'm not as concerned about whether Royce is nicer than Santa Claus or a bigger prick than the Grinch. I just think he's unfairly painted as having no range in comparison to Jose when all historical stats tell the story otherwise. Why is Clayton's defensive stat history so conveniently ignored here? Now, if you want to bitch about the fact that Roycey always chooses to swing for a home run ala Sammy, regardless of the situation, then I'm right there with ya. That drives me nuts about the guy.

whether its about his range or not. i have my opinion on that. now ref to the links. you have to trust me on that. as you see, no-one is coming in to dispute me on this. its been mention. the latest one was several weeks ago on the times about ward talking to the players while clayton had his headphones on and not listening to what was being said.

bjmarte
08-12-2002, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I just think he's unfairly painted as having no range in comparison to Jose when all historical stats tell the story otherwise. Why is Clayton's defensive stat history so conveniently ignored here?

What stats are you using to measure range? On the subject of Royce's defensive stats, it is easy to avoid errors when you don't bother to try for the difficult plays. He sure does great when the ball is hit right to him though, I'll give you that much.

Kilroy
08-12-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


What stats are you using to measure range? On the subject of Royce's defensive stats, it is easy to avoid errors when you don't bother to try for the difficult plays. He sure does great when the ball is hit right to him though, I'll give you that much.

I think that most people would agree that Jose is going to make some spectacular plays for you. He gets to balls and has a strong arm to back it up. But Valentin has always been more likely to blow the easy play. The ball hit right to him.

So which is easier to take, a guy not making the brilliant plays, or a guy screwing up the easy play?

bjmarte
08-12-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


I think that most people would agree that Jose is going to make some spectacular plays for you. He gets to balls and has a strong arm to back it up. But Valentin has always been more likely to blow the easy play. The ball hit right to him.

So which is easier to take, a guy not making the brilliant plays, or a guy screwing up the easy play?

You exaggerate the issue. When Jose screws up it is usually on the easy play, but it doesn't happen as often as you make it sound.

Kilroy
08-12-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


You exaggerate the issue. When Jose screws up it is usually on the easy play, but it doesn't happen as often as you make it sound.


Ur right. I should have said when Jose screws up, he's more likely to blow the easy play. not that he's likely to blow the easy play. subtle difference, but different nonetheless...

idseer
08-12-2002, 04:58 PM
....................sigh!

Soxboyrob
08-12-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


What stats are you using to measure range? On the subject of Royce's defensive stats, it is easy to avoid errors when you don't bother to try for the difficult plays. He sure does great when the ball is hit right to him though, I'll give you that much.

the stats I've been using are the typical range factor stats. Usually, range factor is computed by the equation
Range factor = [(Assists + Putouts)/Innings played] x 9, although it's sometimes unfairly computed as
Range = (Assists + Putouts)/games played at position in question.

Clayton is ordinarily one of the league leaders in this category. That in mind, he's obviously going after balls NOT hit right at him. He's also among the leaders in Zone Rating (a fairly subjective stat IMO) which measures a player's history of getting to balls that pass through his defensive zone.

Bill James' recent win shares book (another subjective piece of literature) graded Clayton out defensively as, I think, a "B." That isn't bad at all considering the company he's in according to James'.

That Royce is a rangeless Buddy Lee is purely a myth, being perpetuated by Sox fans here and on other boards. He's certainly a flawed player, as his offensive stats will clearly show. But he's not the defensive anti-Christ that several have portrayed him to be.

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


the stats I've been using are the typical range factor stats. Usually, range factor is computed by the equation
Range factor = [(Assists + Putouts)/Innings played] x 9, although it's sometimes unfairly computed as
Range = (Assists + Putouts)/games played at position in question.

Clayton is ordinarily one of the league leaders in this category. That in mind, he's obviously going after balls NOT hit right at him. He's also among the leaders in Zone Rating (a fairly subjective stat IMO) which measures a player's history of getting to balls that pass through his defensive zone.

Bill James' recent win shares book (another subjective piece of literature) graded Clayton out defensively as, I think, a "B." That isn't bad at all considering the company he's in according to James'.

That Royce is a rangeless Buddy Lee is purely a myth, being perpetuated by Sox fans here and on other boards. He's certainly a flawed player, as his offensive stats will clearly show. But he's not the defensive anti-Christ that several have portrayed him to be.

and most importantly a cancer in the clubhouse.

idseer
08-12-2002, 06:59 PM
you cannot win soxboyrob! when you prove one point, they switch horses on you and cleverly ignore your point.

i wonder who they'll beat on when royce is gone?

Soxheads
08-12-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i wonder who they'll beat on when royce is gone?

:versatile

"They've already started on me."

LongDistanceFan
08-12-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by idseer
you cannot win soxboyrob! when you prove one point, they switch horses on you and cleverly ignore your point.

i wonder who they'll beat on when royce is gone?

i believe he asked about the cancer in the clubhouse in a earlier post. in one #31 and there were a couple of more. i just wanted him to remember the other aspect of clayton's charming personality.

Nellie_Fox
08-13-2002, 02:43 AM
I'm always kind of puzzled by the idea of players being "cancers in the clubhouse." I would guess that the idea of someone being a "cancer" is that he negatively impacts on those around him.

I have, in my career, worked with people I didn't particularly like. I have worked with people who I didn't enjoy being around. However, I didn't somehow do a worse job in my own work than I would have had that person not been there.

Explain to me how someone having a bad attitude can make the other players worse.

RedPinStripes
08-13-2002, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I'm always kind of puzzled by the idea of players being "cancers in the clubhouse." I would guess that the idea of someone being a "cancer" is that he negatively impacts on those around him.

I have, in my career, worked with people I didn't particularly like. I have worked with people who I didn't enjoy being around. However, I didn't somehow do a worse job in my own work than I would have had that person not been there.

Explain to me how someone having a bad attitude can make the other players worse.

I've played on softball teams and seen many teams that just don't mix. 1 or 2 jagoffs can screw lot of thigs up. I played on a team last year that had 1 big jag who would always point fingers. no one ever wanted to play next to the guy . he got on everyone. and when the game was over. there was more finger pointing. As soon as this guy would start yapping, the team would fall apart. I only play with 1 team now and it's the one i have fun with.

Ther's a team full of ringers that have egos in out league that we beat the piss out of this year and we're not half as talented. We've just been playing togetehr for years and have a good time in what is considered our clubhouse. "the bar". lol

Softball is a much shorter season. Just imagine trying to play 162 games next to a real prick that wants nothing to do with his team mates and is a selfish player. I can't speak as a pro ball player, but it makes it real tough in a short softball season when you play for free. 1 or 2 guys can destroy team and a team's additude. IMO Addition by subtraction

idseer
08-13-2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i believe he asked about the cancer in the clubhouse in a earlier post. in one #31 and there were a couple of more. i just wanted him to remember the other aspect of clayton's charming personality.

but he DID address that question ldf. he had at least SOME information that royce is NOT thought of as a cancer in the clubhouse or anywhere else. and has asked for any direct quotes from teammates or management that show he is. i didn't see anyone come up with anything of the sort. i hear rumors and that's about it. i've never read anything (outside here and espn board) or heard anything like that on tv about it.

idseer
08-13-2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I've played on softball teams and seen many teams that just don't mix. 1 or 2 jagoffs can screw lot of thigs up. I played on a team last year that had 1 big jag who would always point fingers. no one ever wanted to play next to the guy . he got on everyone. and when the game was over. there was more finger pointing. As soon as this guy would start yapping, the team would fall apart. I only play with 1 team now and it's the one i have fun with.

Ther's a team full of ringers that have egos in out league that we beat the piss out of this year and we're not half as talented. We've just been playing togetehr for years and have a good time in what is considered our clubhouse. "the bar". lol

Softball is a much shorter season. Just imagine trying to play 162 games next to a real prick that wants nothing to do with his team mates and is a selfish player. I can't speak as a pro ball player, but it makes it real tough in a short softball season when you play for free. 1 or 2 guys can destroy team and a team's additude. IMO Addition by subtraction

i can agree, rps, with what you say here. i've played with guys like that myself. the question here is, is royce one of those boistrous, fingerpointing jerks that has everyone in the dugout on edge? i see and hear NOTHING of the sort!
i see a guy who speaks up occasionally about wanting to play and who tries as hard as anyone else out there. ego? how many sports figures don't have an ego? selfish? show me a player that isn't interested in his stats! either hitting or fielding. i've yet to see anything to indicate royce isn't interested in being on a winner.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by idseer


the question here is, is royce one of those boistrous, fingerpointing jerks that has everyone in the dugout on edge? i see and hear NOTHING of the sort!
i see a guy who speaks up occasionally about wanting to play and who tries as hard as anyone else out there. ego? how many sports figures don't have an ego? selfish? show me a player that isn't interested in his stats! either hitting or fielding. i've yet to see anything to indicate royce isn't interested in being on a winner.

That's really my point in all of this. I've heard the things about not coming out for a national anthem and about the headphones, but that's nowhere near the "in your face, finger pointing, cancer in the clubhouse" sort of thing that's been previously discussed. I've heard ample discussion that he's pretty buddy buddy w/ the guys on the team. I've also observed him many times in the dugout, on the field, signing autographs before games, etc., and on all occasions he's appeared to be friendly, laughing, ass-patting (not the fans, of course) and generally getting along w/ the fans and guys on the team. On the grander scale, this is all very unimportant but I just can't help but to wonder about the "cancer" allegations considering my observations. He may be guilty of being a major bonehead, considering some of the things I've heard about him, but wanting to play and saying something about it is what I call being competetive. I'd do the same thing on my softball teams and I can assure you my teammates don't consider me a cancer.

All that said, are there any free agent shortstops that can both field, hit and won't cost a bushel of money in this offseason? I know that the common feeling is to keep Jose, but his contract has only one year left on it and who knows if he'll stay here after that?

34 Inch Stick
08-13-2002, 09:29 AM
If all of this is true then the question that comes immediately to my mind is why doesn't anyone else want him. Looking at it subjectively, he is a solid defensive shortstop who hits .250. He has been on a hot streak and is traditionally much better at the plate in the second half. He is a veteran who has played in several playoff games. There is less than a million dollars left on his contract and he is a free agent at the end of the season. The Sox would be willing to take anyone (and I mean anyone) from your minor league roster to trade him. He would seem to be the perfect rent a player addition to a playoff contending team, yet no one wants him. There has to be some reason for the league's indifference to Royce.

I have a feeling you are right that he is not the traditional cancer, a person who brings others down by his mere presence. I think he is in that Jim Rice mold of a guy who does not want to be bothered with any one else and takes offense at others infringing on his time.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
There is less than a million dollars left on his contract and he is a free agent at the end of the season. The Sox would be willing to take anyone (and I mean anyone) from your minor league roster to trade him. He would seem to be the perfect rent a player addition to a playoff contending team, yet no one wants him. There has to be some reason for the league's indifference to Royce.



I think a team's need for him is going to have to depend on their need and their chances for reaching the postseason. I'm personally too lazy to look up all contending teams' shortstop depth, although I'm thinking that the Astros might be interested, with the loss of Julio Lugo last night. For all I know, there aren't any contenders with much of a shortstop need. At least he passed waivers and can now be traded for a single-A player, bag of balls, plate of cookies, or whatever.

ode to veeck
08-13-2002, 10:13 AM
At this point, I'm very happy to see Clayton really heat up. Maybe it will encourage one of the contending teams to trade for him.


I like the optimism here, maybe there actually is another dumb GM out there somewhere ... (besides KW)

idseer
08-13-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I think a team's need for him is going to have to depend on their need and their chances for reaching the postseason. I'm personally too lazy to look up all contending teams' shortstop depth, although I'm thinking that the Astros might be interested, with the loss of Julio Lugo last night. For all I know, there aren't any contenders with much of a shortstop need. At least he passed waivers and can now be traded for a single-A player, bag of balls, plate of cookies, or whatever.

i have mixed feelings. if he goes .... i won't have anything to talk about anymore ... and i'll never reach 'personality'! :o:

delben91
08-13-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by idseer
and i'll never reach 'personality'! :o:

I feel your pain, every time I log on, I'm still just "regular" sigh....

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by idseer


i have mixed feelings. if he goes .... i won't have anything to talk about anymore ... and i'll never reach 'personality'! :o:

Is there anyone else on the team whose honor we can valiantly defend? Sad sack Manuel? Idiot Kenny? Josh Paul? Ritchie? How about Reinsdorf?????

idseer
08-13-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Is there anyone else on the team whose honor we can valiantly defend? Sad sack Manuel? Idiot Kenny? Josh Paul? Ritchie? How about Reinsdorf?????

ummmmm ... no! not those guys

maybe it'll be someone we don't have yet.

or maybe parque!!!! i've always liked parq and lots of guys here hate him! for NO APPARENT REASON :?:





:)

idseer
08-13-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by delben91


I feel your pain, every time I log on, I'm still just "regular" sigh....

hang in there del ... you're almost there! :D:

delben91
08-13-2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by idseer

or maybe parque!!!! i've always liked parq and lots of guys here hate him! for NO APPARENT REASON :?:


Maybe some of us prefer margarine, all right?!?!

:cool:

Paulwny
08-13-2002, 12:05 PM
The reason the Cards traded Clayton:


"Clayton is a pending free agent, and the Cardinals had no plans to offer him a contract. Clayton represented everything wrong with this disappointing team: moodiness and stubborness. He pouted when he didn't bat leadoff. He never embraced the suggestions to hit smarter with two strikes. Clayton never tried to hit the ball the opposite way, no matter how many lectures he heard from batting instructor Dave Parker.

So before firing Clayton, the Cardinals exchanged him for Tatis, who could be their third baseman for many summers. Jocketty made it clear to Rangers GM Doug Melvin that he wouldn't trade Stottlemyre for Oliver unless the deal was expanded to include the swap of Clayton for Tatis."

http://tatis.fateback.com/article24.html

RedPinStripes
08-13-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I think a team's need for him is going to have to depend on their need and their chances for reaching the postseason. I'm personally too lazy to look up all contending teams' shortstop depth, although I'm thinking that the Astros might be interested, with the loss of Julio Lugo last night. For all I know, there aren't any contenders with much of a shortstop need. At least he passed waivers and can now be traded for a single-A player, bag of balls, plate of cookies, or whatever.

If they can dump him, THANK YOU KERRY WOOD! And may you have many ****ty seasons ahead of you.

RedPinStripes
08-13-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
The reason the Cards traded Clayton:


"Clayton is a pending free agent, and the Cardinals had no plans to offer him a contract. Clayton represented everything wrong with this disappointing team: moodiness and stubborness. He pouted when he didn't bat leadoff. He never embraced the suggestions to hit smarter with two strikes. Clayton never tried to hit the ball the opposite way, no matter how many lectures he heard from batting instructor Dave Parker.

So before firing Clayton, the Cardinals exchanged him for Tatis, who could be their third baseman for many summers. Jocketty made it clear to Rangers GM Doug Melvin that he wouldn't trade Stottlemyre for Oliver unless the deal was expanded to include the swap of Clayton for Tatis."

http://tatis.fateback.com/article24.html


sounds like a negative influence in the clubhouse and the royce we all know. If he don't play, he pouts and goes right to the papers. He threw a fit when crede got here.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by idseer


but he DID address that question ldf. he had at least SOME information that royce is NOT thought of as a cancer in the clubhouse or anywhere else. and has asked for any direct quotes from teammates or management that show he is. i didn't see anyone come up with anything of the sort. i hear rumors and that's about it. i've never read anything (outside here and espn board) or heard anything like that on tv about it.

how do you expect me to find some quotes that kw said some 2 yrs ago? i am sure other posters can back me on this when kw said that he went against advice to get clayton in a trade, b/c of how he acts in the clubhouse..

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by idseer

and i'll never reach 'personality'! :o:

can you explain this for me, i am missing your meaning

Jerry_Manuel
08-13-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
can you explain this for me, i am missing your meaning

Once you hit "x" amount of posts you become a WSI Personality.

That's what he meant.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Is there anyone else on the team whose honor we can valiantly defend? Sad sack Manuel? Idiot Kenny? Josh Paul? Ritchie? How about Reinsdorf?????

i like manuel and jr, i know i am a minority here and its useless to defend them. but i am wavering on jr right about now.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Once you hit "x" amount of posts you become a WSI Personality.

That's what he meant.

thanks i was really confuse with that.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob



for you and isdeer, well what did you have to say about the article on clayton that paulwy(sp) got?

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


for you and isdeer, well what did you have to say about the article on clayton that paulwy(sp) got?

I'm glad to have read that. That's sort of what I've been looking for to a certain degree. There isn't a lot in there that I hadn't already heard and I've noted tons of times that his selfish hitting style drives me nuts and is my biggest beef w/ him by far. I guess it comes down to how you want to truly define a "cancer" in the clubhouse. I'd bet it's a fairly divided clubhouse. He's probably buddies w/ some and enemies w/ others. I've heard that when the club was still all together, Royce, Frank, Lofton and Ray were sort of a buddy clique...maybe a cancerous buddy clique (based on things I've also heard about Frank and Lofton). My guess would be that Frank is a far bigger cancer on this club right now than Royce could ever hope to be. Again, my point about this whole subject in the first place was that Royce's defense (range included) is fine, if not excellent, and his career stats and his 2002 numbers clearly show that.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob




you may be right about the frank +cancer comment, i don't really know. so i will give this to you.

however, there was a person who worked in spring training and was posting on this board. he mention that many times clayton ate by himself and never socialize whith anyone.

steff
08-13-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I've heard that when the club was still all together, Royce, Frank, Lofton and Ray were sort of a buddy clique...maybe a cancerous buddy clique (based on things I've also heard about Frank and Lofton). My guess would be that Frank is a far bigger cancer on this club right now than Royce could ever hope to be.


Where'd ya hear that info Robo..?? Ray did not hang around with Royce. Royce is a BIG drinker, Ray barely ever drinks. Frank and Royce have not gotten along since a birthday party a few years ago when Royce was with Texas and him and a few others decided to crash the party. Besides.. Frank and Royce obviously don't hang in the same circles. Don't know anything about how Lofton spent his off time, so I can't comment on that.
Now.. as for Royce being a cancer. I completely 100% agree with that. Without too much detail, here's a story told to me by a player. Royce has a bad game (yeah, I know it's a stretch.. but try to imagine it). We ended up losing the game because of him getting out (almost positive he looked at the K - it was July 13th @ Detroit) and he's booed. After the game he comes out of the shower. Walks over to a radio that was playing on the other side of the clubhouse from where his area is and he pushes it off the bench - it breaks - and he proceeds to scream at Biddle for blowing the game. His quote was "YOU should have pitched better". Says a few choice (no pun intended) words and walks off. Gets dressed and goes to eat. He doesn't like what's being served so he bitches about that. Then they get on the bus to go back to the hotel and he's bitching all the way and calling Biddle a bunch of names. They get to the hotel, he goes into the bar, gets trashed and starts running his mouth. Other players (who will remain nameless) have to assertively remove him from the bar. He goes o'fer the next day.. and has the nerve to run his mouth to the media. Naaa... no cancer at all. Paalleeaaseee. This guy needs round the clock chemo!!

steff
08-13-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


you may be right about the frank +cancer comment, i don't really know. so i will give this to you.

however, there was a person who worked in spring training and was posting on this board. he mention that many times clayton ate by himself and never socialize whith anyone.


LDF, that is completely true. And no one ever wants to socialize outside the park with him because he drinks too much and has a big mouth.
As for Frank being a cancer... he hangs out with everyone. Everyone seems to like him. They all go out together a lot. So I don't buy that. Although.. I'm not privy to all things that go on in the clubhouse.

idseer
08-13-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


for you and isdeer, well what did you have to say about the article on clayton that paulwy(sp) got?

well, i'm not sure what the writer meant when he said royce represented everything wrong with the club. did he mean stl was in general moody and stubborn and royce was the cause? cause frankly i can't see how one player can turn a whole club that way. i'd guess he meant there were many players like this on the team and royce was one example.
i have thought for some time that he's not an outgoing person, but i don't find that necessarily a big deal. it takes all kinds.

i don't know how to take his comments about failing to learn to hit to the right side. there are a lot of pull hitters who don't do that well. but i have seen royce go to the right side! so it's a confusing statement.

i question who it was making the quote also. it wasn't attributed to anyone. was it another player? larussa? jocketty? no! it sounds like it just comes from bernie miklasz. whos bernie miklasz? possibly an ozzie smith lover who thought royce was a poor follow up ss (similar to the jose lovers who hated royce for no other reason than he took ss away from him)? i don't know.

i want to hear or see a real 'quote' from a manager or player who says royce is a clubhouse cancer.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by steff3603


Where'd ya hear that info Robo..?? Ray did not hang around with Royce. Royce is a BIG drinker, Ray barely ever drinks. Frank and Royce have not gotten along since a birthday party a few years ago when Royce was with Texas and him and a few others decided to crash the party. Besides.. Frank and Royce obviously don't hang in the same circles. Don't know anything about how Lofton spent his off time, so I can't comment on that.


I'm glad you chimed in on this topic...not sure why I didn't summon you for more info in the first place. Maybe I'm putting too much faith in what Sweika says on the Score, but she's in the clubhouse whenever the Sox are in town and she swears that Frank is pretty bummed about the fact that Ray and Lofton are gone and that now his only good buddy on the team in Royce. She has constantly noted that those four were all very tight and that Frank and Clayton still are. Based on what I've seen and heard about Clayton, maybe they're made for each other. I figured the connection w/ Ray and Clayton made sense, since they're both very good and avid golfers. I suppose it doesn't matter to me either way. My original point wasn't that Royce was a great guy, but only that he's a good defensive shortstop. I've now heard a lot of very negative and very positive things about Clayton, which seems strange. I just wish the little s*** would hit .280 and get some walks once in a while.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i don't know how to take his comments about failing to learn to hit to the right side. there are a lot of pull hitters who don't do that well. but i have seen royce go to the right side! so it's a confusing statement.



That is weird, because some of his very best hitting has been shots down the right field line. My guess is, however, that those hits are not by design but are due to some defensive hitting that resulted in a lucky shot to the right side. He did impress me in his game winning hit to right field the other night when he was clearly hitting it to right on purpose.

Sufferin
08-13-2002, 03:24 PM
I'd be on the horn to Houston to see if they have interest in Clayton. He wouldn't be too bad a pick-up since he's hitting and provides good D. With Lugo likely out for the season I would think we could get them to take him.

steff
08-13-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I'm glad you chimed in on this topic...not sure why I didn't summon you for more info in the first place. Maybe I'm putting too much faith in what Sweika says on the Score, but she's in the clubhouse whenever the Sox are in town and she swears that Frank is pretty bummed about the fact that Ray and Lofton are gone and that now his only good buddy on the team in Royce. She has constantly noted that those four were all very tight and that Frank and Clayton still are.

Rob.. have faith in NO ONE in the media that directly or indirectly gets $0.01 from the Sox orginization!!


Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Based on what I've seen and heard about Clayton, maybe they're made for each other. I figured the connection w/ Ray and Clayton made sense, since they're both very good and very avid golfers. I suppose it doesn't matter to me either way. My original point wasn't that Royce was a great guy, but only that he's a good defensive shortstop. I've now heard a lot of very negative and very positive things about Clayton, which seems strange. I just wish the little s*** would hit .280 and get some walks once in a while.

Frank dosen't play as much as he used to. A lot of the time that they are at home he is with the kids. He's only been to 1 of the 5 outings that I knew about. And I didn't see Royce at any of them.
Now.. about Royce... Heeeeeeee ssssuuuucccckkkkssss.. :D:
By the way Robo.. did you get my emails last night and today regarding the weekend?

whitesoxwilkes
08-13-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by steff3603


Where'd ya hear that info Robo..?? Ray did not hang around with Royce. Royce is a BIG drinker, Ray barely ever drinks.

The one time I was around Ray Ray (during Soxfest) he drank like quite a pro.

idseer
08-13-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


That is weird, because some of his very best hitting has been shots down the right field line. My guess is, however, that those hits are not by design but are due to some defensive hitting that resulted in a lucky shot to the right side. He did impress me in his game winning hit to right field the other night when he was clearly hitting it to right on purpose.

that's why i don't like this kind of writing. i mean, right up front he says ... "That's right, Jocketty traded only one player.
I don't even count shortstop Royce Clayton."

sound like somebody with fairness in mind to you? like i said, let's get a quote from larussa on this 'cancer'!

steff
08-13-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes


The one time I was around Ray Ray (during Soxfest) he drank like quite a pro.

Didn't say he "couldn't".. said rarely. Crystal absolutely does NOT drink. Therefor, Ray does so in moderation. Translation - when she's home in NC and he's here for Sox Fest :D:

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by steff3603


Robo.. did you get my emails last night and today regarding the weekend?

Of course. Wifey has penciled it into the schedule. We'll be by the BBQ as soon as Spanky wakes up from the afternoon nap. Can't believe Tribe posters will be attending. The Horror!!!

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by steff3603


Where'd ya hear that info Robo..?? Ray did not hang around with Royce. Royce is a BIG drinker, Ray barely ever drinks. Frank and Royce have not gotten along since a birthday party a few years ago when Royce was with Texas and him and a few others decided to crash the party. Besides.. Frank and Royce obviously don't hang in the same circles. Don't know anything about how Lofton spent his off time, so I can't comment on that.
Now.. as for Royce being a cancer. I completely 100% agree with that. Without too much detail, here's a story told to me by a player. Royce has a bad game (yeah, I know it's a stretch.. but try to imagine it). We ended up losing the game because of him getting out (almost positive he looked at the K - it was July 13th @ Detroit) and he's booed. After the game he comes out of the shower. Walks over to a radio that was playing on the other side of the clubhouse from where his area is and he pushes it off the bench - it breaks - and he proceeds to scream at Biddle for blowing the game. His quote was "YOU should have pitched better". Says a few choice (no pun intended) words and walks off. Gets dressed and goes to eat. He doesn't like what's being served so he bitches about that. Then they get on the bus to go back to the hotel and he's bitching all the way and calling Biddle a bunch of names. They get to the hotel, he goes into the bar, gets trashed and starts running his mouth. Other players (who will remain nameless) have to assertively remove him from the bar. He goes o'fer the next day.. and has the nerve to run his mouth to the media. Naaa... no cancer at all. Paalleeaaseee. This guy needs round the clock chemo!!

the more and more i read your post, i am becoming a fan. :)

you got some great inside info. protect them.

Dadawg_77
08-13-2002, 04:05 PM
Someone brought Bill James Win Share system for D, well yes Royce is listed as a B but so Jose.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


I suppose it doesn't matter to me either way. My original point wasn't that Royce was a great guy, but only that he's a good defensive shortstop. I've now heard a lot of very negative and very positive things about Clayton, which seems strange.

you heard a lot of postive things from the spin doctors who are pd to report things in one way or another. you made several other comment on your first post.

Clayton was brought here to be a defensive stallwart and provide a .250 stick.

It seems reasonable for fans to want a better overall shortstop than Clayton. I sure do. But blaming him so much for this season's problems is sorta goofy. I blame the guys that didn't live up to their billing....Ritchie, Thomas, Foulke, management, etc. [/B]

this is post #21, your first one.

you made several mistakes in this post which i address esp in this first sentence. we address this already on why he was really brought here.

ref to the other para, i made a comment of the negative feelings on the sox team towards royce. you were mentioning on why he was being slam.

LongDistanceFan
08-13-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer


well, i'm not sure what the writer meant when he said royce represented everything wrong with the club. did he mean stl was in general moody and stubborn and royce was the cause? cause frankly i can't see how one player can turn a whole club that way. i'd guess he meant there were many players like this on the team and royce was one example.
i have thought for some time that he's not an outgoing person, but i don't find that necessarily a big deal. it takes all kinds.

i don't know how to take his comments about failing to learn to hit to the right side. there are a lot of pull hitters who don't do that well. but i have seen royce go to the right side! so it's a confusing statement.

i question who it was making the quote also. it wasn't attributed to anyone. was it another player? larussa? jocketty? no! it sounds like it just comes from bernie miklasz. whos bernie miklasz? possibly an ozzie smith lover who thought royce was a poor follow up ss (similar to the jose lovers who hated royce for no other reason than he took ss away from him)? i don't know.

i want to hear or see a real 'quote' from a manager or player who says royce is a clubhouse cancer.

i really can't believe you on this blind faith of yours. there are plenty of post, articles and yet you are going to say you want to here it from the players or manager. what do you think the article got their info. i am really tired of even trying to support my post only for you to here i don't believe it.

i am not going to post anymore to you on this thread. it is senseless and not worth the argument.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


you heard a lot of postive things from the spin doctors who are pd to report things in one way or another. you made several other comment on your first post.

I disagree w/ the whole spin doctors thing, unless you're referring to things said on the air during a Sox game by Hawk, DJ, Farmer, Rooney or things by postgame show guys like Melton or Wills (the biggest shill in Sox history). Why should people on the Score not tell the truth about the players? They're not paid by the club. The same people who have said positive things about certain Sox players have also said very negative things about other players. Hawk has said some very scathingly negative things about some of the Sox players and management to my buddy and also some very positive things about others. I don't think a Sweika or J Hood are paid to report anything but the truth about the Sox. I do have some gut feelings that these two are friendly w/ certain members of the team and that it ultimately effects the way they report the news about those guys.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Someone brought Bill James Win Share system for D, well yes Royce is listed as a B but so Jose.

What's really interesting about that James book is the fact that Aparicio is rated as a B+, just barely above Clayton and Valentin and even w/ the equally rated Ozzie Guillen (also a B+). James is often very interesting and statistically significant, but this seems a little outlandish.

Dadawg_77
08-13-2002, 04:26 PM
Even James admits the D part of the book is the greatest but its the best he could do.
There really are no stats, at least right now, that are perfect for D, since it is still a very subjective subject.
One very interesting stat is the Zone Range, which Stat INC (James' publisher) came up with. For career at SS pos only, Royce have a ZR of .862 and Jose has one of .844. Zone Range is how many ball a player field that fall within his range as determine by Stats INC. Maybe the fact that Royce, doesn't do a lot of diving and such, is he is better position for the pitch.

steff
08-14-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


the more and more i read your post, i am becoming a fan. :)

you got some great inside info. protect them.

OMG LDF... I have stories that would knock you off your chair!! I tell you .. sometimes I have sat there and listened and thought they were lying. But the sad fact is, that some of the stories are so unreal, they have to be true! I mean.. you just can't make this stuff up. Their imagionations simply aren't that vivid :D:

There are a couple more about Royce that include a current players (now) ex-girlfriend that really sealed the deal for me hating his guts last year. Throw in the fact that anything he does above "playing", he wants to be rewarded for. He truly is a sicko. I used to like him. Now.. I wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire!

34 Inch Stick
08-14-2002, 09:52 AM
If you ever come around from your stance and would pee on him, make sure you take pictures and post them on the internet. You should be able to make yourself some money.

LongDistanceFan
08-14-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by steff3603


OMG LDF... I have stories that would knock you off your chair!! I tell you .. sometimes I have sat there and listened and thought they were lying. But the sad fact is, that some of the stories are so unreal, they have to be true! I mean.. you just can't make this stuff up. Their imagionations simply aren't that vivid :D:

There are a couple more about Royce that include a current players (now) ex-girlfriend that really sealed the deal for me hating his guts last year. Throw in the fact that anything he does above "playing", he wants to be rewarded for. He truly is a sicko. I used to like him. Now.. I wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire!

get him falling down drunk and then you could do it

steff
08-14-2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
If you ever come around from your stance and would pee on him, make sure you take pictures and post them on the internet. You should be able to make yourself some money.

ACK!! Gross!! Not going to happen... Couldn't :gulp: enough, ever!!

Now.. I have some interesting video of Jeff Abbott and Greg Norton in a Minnesota hotel room... :D:

voodoochile
08-14-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by steff3603


ACK!! Gross!! Not going to happen... Couldn't :gulp: enough, ever!!

Now.. I have some interesting video of Jeff Abbott and Greg Norton in a Minnesota hotel room... :D:

Okay, I have to ask... How do you have all this inside info? You work for the team? Married to someone who works for the team? Just lucky? You a Sox groupie or a Sox stalker? What's the story?

:D:

steff
08-14-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Okay, I have to ask... How do you have all this inside info? You work for the team? Married to someone who works for the team? Just lucky? You a Sox groupie or a Sox stalker? What's the story?

:D:


LOL... "groupie, stalker"... You guys do crack me up.

In a nutshell.. I've known one of the players wives since before she was a players wife. When they started dating (when he was in AAA) I got to know a lot of the players. When they came up, we all stayed friends. And, when new players came, I got introduced to them, their wives, kids, girlfriends, etc.. It really got started in '93 when I was "lucky" enough to get invited to a "insider" party and the rest is history.
The real treat was when a player got traded. Then I got to meet an entire new group of players.

idseer
08-14-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i really can't believe you on this blind faith of yours. there are plenty of post, articles and yet you are going to say you want to here it from the players or manager. what do you think the article got their info. i am really tired of even trying to support my post only for you to here i don't believe it.

i am not going to post anymore to you on this thread. it is senseless and not worth the argument.

i'm sorry you feel that way. if you choose to believe innuendo and gossip by those who don't like royce that's your 'choice'.
in a courtroom it would all be thrown out by a judge as worthless. i want ACTUAL proof before i trash someone's reputation.

steff
08-14-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by idseer


i'm sorry you feel that way. if you choose to believe innuendo and gossip by those who don't like royce that's your 'choice'.
in a courtroom it would all be thrown out by a judge as worthless. i want ACTUAL proof before i trash someone's reputation.


I agree with you idseer.. but since "what happens in the clubhouse, stays in the clubhouse" is the norm. You'll never get the info you're looking for. Unless Canseco has a chapter on Royce... or Royce pisses someone off enough. I'm betting on the latter.

idseer
08-14-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



I agree with you idseer.. but since "what happens in the clubhouse, stays in the clubhouse" is the norm. You'll never get the info you're looking for. Unless Canseco has a chapter on Royce... or Royce pisses someone off enough. I'm betting on the latter.

that's right. no one who's talking knows.

i did a little digging of my one about that stl, texas trade. Bernie Miklasz said, among other things ...

"Jocketty made it clear to Rangers GM Doug Melvin that he wouldn't trade Stottlemyre for Oliver unless the deal was expanded to include the swap of Clayton for Tatis.

Because of his tough posture, Jocketty got Tatis as a bonus."

i found this bit of news:

http://tatis.fateback.com/article71.html

"At the time, we were trying to build a reputation for winning," said Rangers general manager Doug Melvin. "It accomplished what we wanted.

"It also gave us an opportunity to give Royce Clayton a chance to show him what it was like here. There would have been no guarantee that we could have signed Royce if we didn't give him that two-month sneak preview at our organization."

does this look like texas had royce forced down their throats? i don't get that impression at all.

i have a feeling this bernie dude doesn't like clayton personally. and facts don't matter that much.
i found another article i'd like to print here, perhaps giving a little insight on why royce may seem closed or sullen at times.

"Clayton was a star athlete who grew up in Los Angeles playing
shortstop and idolizing Ozzie Smith.
Clayton then turned pro and, after some initial success at shortstop in San Francisco, needed a change of scenery after the 1995 season.Sure enough, prior to the '96 season, Clayton then landed in St. Louis...and smack dab into the middle of controversy.
Controversy in the form of his hero, Ozzie Smith, who, after missing much of the '95 season due to injury, was looking to reclaim the job that he believed to be rightfully his.
Putting it mildly, the situation was not a pleasant one for all
concerned. Recall that manager Tony La Russa saw fit to start Smith one, and only one, game during each 1996 series.
The strategy was a good one as far as wins and losses were
concerned.
The Cardinals won the NL Central in '96, in no small part due to the quality shortstop play provided by the Clayton and Smith duo.
Indeed, Smith, in his final season, hit .282 and perhaps more
importantly, went out as part of a winning team.
But Smith, feeling slighted by La Russa, believed that his manager did not follow through on promises made at spring training. And for whatever reason, it was believed by some within the Cardinals clubhouse that The Wizard at times appeared to disrespect Clayton. Never mind that Smith's main beef was with Father Time first, and perhaps Tony La Russa second.
All of this clearly had an effect on Royce Clayton the man, at least as far as his clubhouse persona was concerned.
But (and this is important), Royce Clayton never publicly complained about "The Situation".At the very least, though, Clayton was confused by it all.
But in public, Royce Clayton's response was always gentlemanly.
And for that Clayton is to be commended."

by Mark Bausch
April, 1998

delben91
08-14-2002, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by idseer

i found another article i'd like to print here, perhaps giving a little insight on why royce may seem closed or sullen at times.

"Clayton was a star athlete who grew up in Los Angeles playing
shortstop and idolizing Ozzie Smith.
Clayton then turned pro and, after some initial success at shortstop in San Francisco, needed a change of scenery after the 1995 season.Sure enough, prior to the '96 season, Clayton then landed in St. Louis...and smack dab into the middle of controversy.
Controversy in the form of his hero, Ozzie Smith, who, after missing much of the '95 season due to injury, was looking to reclaim the job that he believed to be rightfully his.
Putting it mildly, the situation was not a pleasant one for all
concerned. Recall that manager Tony La Russa saw fit to start Smith one, and only one, game during each 1996 series.
The strategy was a good one as far as wins and losses were
concerned.
The Cardinals won the NL Central in '96, in no small part due to the quality shortstop play provided by the Clayton and Smith duo.
Indeed, Smith, in his final season, hit .282 and perhaps more
importantly, went out as part of a winning team.
But Smith, feeling slighted by La Russa, believed that his manager did not follow through on promises made at spring training. And for whatever reason, it was believed by some within the Cardinals clubhouse that The Wizard at times appeared to disrespect Clayton. Never mind that Smith's main beef was with Father Time first, and perhaps Tony La Russa second.
All of this clearly had an effect on Royce Clayton the man, at least as far as his clubhouse persona was concerned.
But (and this is important), Royce Clayton never publicly complained about "The Situation".At the very least, though, Clayton was confused by it all.
But in public, Royce Clayton's response was always gentlemanly.
And for that Clayton is to be commended."

by Mark Bausch
April, 1998

That was a really interesting piece. I won't pretend now to be a Clayton backer having read that, because I never have backed him, and claiming otherwise would be far too hypocritical. That said, the reason I haven't supported Clayton was initially for his horrible showing during the first half of 2001.

After he rebounded to close out last season, I thought he merited another chance this year. Having followed the same pattern, it could be argued that for the right price, he should get yet another chance. However, I don't think that Royce is the right SS for this team.

They are obviously going toward yet another "rebuilding-retooling-rewhatever" session, and the trade for Jimenez would seem to indicate that he's next in line for a chance (assuming something is done with Valentin, trade, whathaveyou). So, I say let Royce go someplace else, where maybe he will find the right fit, because Chicago doesn't appear to be it.

idseer
08-14-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by delben91


However, I don't think that Royce is the right SS for this team.




i don't think so either. if he'd continued his hitting from last season everyone would be singing a different tune, but he didn't and i'd perfer now to do what the team is generally doing ... clearing the deadwood and planting new bodies. let's see either a trade for a new ss or ........... hmmmmmm, maybe jimenez, or hummel, or liefer ... that's it! let's try leifer there! :D:

Dadawg_77
08-14-2002, 01:50 PM
Idseer, I know you don't believe everything you read. So why do you believe this piece? If Clayton was forced on the Rangers would you expect the GM come out and say we really didn't want this guy, but we couldn't get this guy unless we took Clayton? Only Kenny would do something that stupid. Just remember nine or fewer months after this article is written the Rangers spent 252 million dollars on a new SS and traded Clayton. That four year deal is about to expire not a minute to soon.

idseer
08-14-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Idseer, I know you don't believe everything you read. So why do you believe this piece? If Clayton was forced on the Rangers would you expect the GM come out and say we really didn't want this guy, but we couldn't get this guy unless we took Clayton? Only Kenny would do something that stupid. Just remember nine or fewer months after this article is written the Rangers spent 252 million dollars on a new SS and traded Clayton. That four year deal is about to expire not a minute to soon.

it's not that i believe one piece over the other, well, it is to a degree in that miklasz stated clayton refusing to learn to hit to right when we all know he does. i just think this writer has an axe to burn. he was probably a very big smith fan.
my point is .. among writers you can find all these conflicting reports. which ones are true? do you believe everything YOU read?

as far as getting arod goes ... that doesn't say anything about clayton at all. they had a chance to get one of the best players in the world and they went for it.

voodoochile
08-14-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by idseer


it's not that i believe one piece over the other, well, it is to a degree in that miklasz stated clayton refusing to learn to hit to right when we all know he does. i just think this writer has an axe to burn. he was probably a very big smith fan.
my point is .. among writers you can find all these conflicting reports. which ones are true? do you believe everything YOU read?

as far as getting arod goes ... that doesn't say anything about clayton at all. they had a chance to get one of the best players in the world and they went for it.

Clayton does hit to right? Since when? I can't count the number of times I've watched him jam himself on a pitch he should have taken to right. He did it the other day with a runner on third and less than two outs and ended up popping up. I am just curious where you see this ability to hit to right and when you see him try to do it consistently. From what I can tell, Clayton tries to pull the ball every time...

kevingrt
08-14-2002, 02:50 PM
Does The Choice still have his hit streak goin???

Dadawg_77
08-14-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by idseer


it's not that i believe one piece over the other, well, it is to a degree in that miklasz stated clayton refusing to learn to hit to right when we all know he does. i just think this writer has an axe to burn. he was probably a very big smith fan.
my point is .. among writers you can find all these conflicting reports. which ones are true? do you believe everything YOU read?

as far as getting arod goes ... that doesn't say anything about clayton at all. they had a chance to get one of the best players in the world and they went for it.

Not everything, but when you hear numerous of reports that state one thing vs a few which state something different, you tend to go with the numerous. The Clayton Island quote of earlier this season, the fight he had in the Texas clubhouse over the radio are some of the other things I heard which haven't been mentioned in this thread. Everywhere I turn there seems to be something bad about this guy. He may be nice guy but just doesn't come across good to alot of people. But is he a cancer not really, but why was he brought in? Why did Kenny breakup the 2000 Sox? That is what I can't understand. Every single time the Sox have something that works, someone thinks they can do better. It happened in 1960, 1984, 2001. Why oh God why, does this curse befall my beloved Sox.

idseer
08-14-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Clayton does hit to right? Since when? I can't count the number of times I've watched him jam himself on a pitch he should have taken to right. He did it the other day with a runner on third and less than two outs and ended up popping up. I am just curious where you see this ability to hit to right and when you see him try to do it consistently. From what I can tell, Clayton tries to pull the ball every time...

i didn't say he hits to right a lot. i said earlier he's a definite pull hitter. but on occasion he can hit to right like just a couple days ago when he knocked in the winning run.

idseer
08-14-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Not everything, but when you hear numerous of reports that state one thing vs a few which state something different, you tend to go with the numerous. The Clayton Island quote of earlier this season, the fight he had in the Texas clubhouse over the radio are some of the other things I heard which haven't been mentioned in this thread. Everywhere I turn there seems to be something bad about this guy. He may be nice guy but just doesn't come across good to alot of people. But is he a cancer not really, but why was he brought in? Why did Kenny breakup the 2000 Sox? That is what I can't understand. Every single time the Sox have something that works, someone thinks they can do better. It happened in 1960, 1984, 2001. Why oh God why, does this curse befall my beloved Sox.

i can't argue with your logic. it makes sense to tend to believe the majority side of what you hear. for all i know he may BE a dick! but that shouldn't skew your view of his fielding. and i gotta believe he tries as hard when he's in the game as most anyone else.

and that curse you're talking about has been around a lot longer than KW. curse = JR imo.

RKMeibalane
08-14-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Clayton does hit to right? Since when? I can't count the number of times I've watched him jam himself on a pitch he should have taken to right. He did it the other day with a runner on third and less than two outs and ended up popping up. I am just curious where you see this ability to hit to right and when you see him try to do it consistently. From what I can tell, Clayton tries to pull the ball every time...

You are correct. I read Clayton's profile at ESPN.com, and it was written that he "swings for the fences, often sacrificing average in exchange for homeruns."

Remember, Royce hit six homeruns the first two months of the season, including four in April. He thought he had a chance at twenty homers, so he tried to kill the ball, and his average suffered. He hasn't hit one since, but his average has steadily risen since the end of May. Every now and then, he still swings for the fences and ends up hitting a weak fly ball to center field.

I don't blame Royce for the fact that he can't hit. What bothers me is that he doesn't do what is best for the team when he is struggling. Manuel has talked about Clayton's speed and baserunning ability, but I have yet to see him steal a base or try to bunt. He does little that increases the team's chances of winning.

Furthermore, Clayton's attitude is horrilbe. He is always whining about not playing. Back when JM benched him after the sweep in Cleveland, he complained that the fans expect too much of him.

I will be glad when Clayton is gone. He makes the occasional nice play on a ground ball, but I have yet to see him dive for a hard line drive in the hole.