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doublem23
04-28-2014, 10:46 AM
Not so kind words for former Baby Bears of the current management regime:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/27078211-573/jeff-samardzija-ready-to-escape-from-cubs-alcatraz.html#.U15mo1VdXHW

vinny
04-28-2014, 11:40 AM
Even the comics are getting their pot shots in (pretty sure the cartoonist is a Red Sox fan):

http://assets.amuniversal.com/1386cfb0ac7801314831005056a9545d?width=900

Hitmen77
04-28-2014, 01:35 PM
How is the Cubs minor league system looking these days talent-wise? I have read that they have some potential impact hitters in their farm system, but that's the extent of my knowledge on their minors.

After several years under Theo, is he making any progress toward making the team a contender?

Honest question. I love doubting the Cubs continuous promise of prospects as much as anyone, but I have wondered if Epstein is actually making a difference.

Hitmen77
04-28-2014, 01:37 PM
oh, and if the Cubs are baseball prison, does that mean that the Wrigley Field cake that got thrown in the dumpster had a file in it?

:duck:

doublem23
04-28-2014, 01:57 PM
How is the Cubs minor league system looking these days talent-wise? I have read that they have some potential impact hitters in their farm system, but that's the extent of my knowledge on their minors.

Their farm system is currently ranked #2 overall by Baseball America and they have several blue chip prospects such as Javier Baez, Kris Bryant, Albert Almora, and Jorge Soler. They're all position players, though. Pitching is a real weakness.

white sox bill
04-28-2014, 06:15 PM
Many cub fans are still in denial....thinking Theo will guide them to the promised land despite thier horrid start

DumpJerry
04-28-2014, 10:36 PM
Their farm system is currently ranked #2 overall by Baseball America and they have several blue chip prospects such as Javier Baez, Kris Bryant, Albert Almora, and Jorge Soler. They're all position players, though. Pitching is a real weakness.
Their top pitching prospect (some kid in A ball), just had his shoulder looked at with a MRI for "inflammation." This kid (I think his name is Edwards) is 6-3 and about 160 pounds. Apparently, he makes Chris Sale look like Roberto Garza, the Center for the Chicago Bears. On the radio his body type was described as "Oil Can Boyd."

doublem23
04-29-2014, 08:23 AM
Their top pitching prospect (some kid in A ball), just had his shoulder looked at with a MRI for "inflammation." This kid (I think his name is Edwards) is 6-3 and about 160 pounds. Apparently, he makes Chris Sale look like Roberto Garza, the Center for the Chicago Bears. On the radio his body type was described as "Oil Can Boyd."

Yep, he's a rail. I don't know if he's their consensus top P prospect since scouts don't really think he's going to be able to start in the Majors, but either way, there's a significant drop off from their position players to their pitchers in the minors. An injury to Edwards will hurt short-term, but he's not one of their core guys. In the long run, though, it might be better for him, if it means the Cubs give up on trying to keep him as a starter.

Bobby Thigpen
04-29-2014, 08:47 AM
Many cub fans are still in denial....thinking Theo will guide them to the promised land despite thier horrid start
This is what, his third season with them? Given how they had pretty much gone the aging veterans/big spending road to build the teams before he got there and he was left with an absolutely terrible roster because of it, I think it's a little early to proclaim his tenure a bust.

Moses_Scurry
04-29-2014, 09:31 AM
This is what, his third season with them? Given how they had pretty much gone the aging veterans/big spending road to build the teams before he got there and he was left with an absolutely terrible roster because of it, I think it's a little early to proclaim his tenure a bust.

The aging veteran/big spending route yielded 3 playoff teams in 5 years with one being within an inning of winning the pennant. None of those teams were as bad as they have been any of the past three years. This year's team looks worse than the previous two years, which didn't seem possible after how bad they were in 2012 and 2013. While it is still too early to call the tenure a bust (unless he leaves in the next two years), I would think the goal would be to at least show improvement and not decline. The Sox were dead in the water last year both at the major and minor league levels, yet they have shown mega-improvement this year at the major league level and appear to have a bright future. All while being run by a GM getting paid a fraction of the cost of Theo and his superstar front office.

doublem23
04-29-2014, 09:35 AM
The aging veteran/big spending route yielded 3 playoff teams in 5 years with one being within an inning of winning the pennant. None of those teams were as bad as they have been any of the past three years. This year's team looks worse than the previous two years, which didn't seem possible after how bad they were in 2012 and 2013. While it is still too early to call the tenure a bust (unless he leaves in the next two years), I would think the goal would be to at least show improvement and not decline. The Sox were dead in the water last year both at the major and minor league levels, yet they have shown mega-improvement this year at the major league level and appear to have a bright future. All while being run by a GM getting paid a fraction of the cost of Theo and his superstar front office.

This is true, but the Cubs' plan has always been to put all their resources in the farm system at the expense of the MLB team for the time being. So the verdict will be incomplete for a few more years until guys like Baez, Bryant, Soler, etc. are all promoted out of the farm system. If those guys stink in the MLB, though, then yes, this experiment will be a dismal failure.

Moses_Scurry
04-29-2014, 09:59 AM
This is true, but the Cubs' plan has always been to put all their resources in the farm system at the expense of the MLB team for the time being. So the verdict will be incomplete for a few more years until guys like Baez, Bryant, Soler, etc. are all promoted out of the farm system. If those guys stink in the MLB, though, then yes, this experiment will be a dismal failure.

But I would think that there would have to be a tipping point where the returns, even if they happen if you envision, are not enough to make up for the crap that happens before the returns. Although I guess I was a pretty happy fan in the early '90's after enduring 4 years of pure hell from '86-'89. So maybe there is no such thing. The Pirates fans were happy last year after 20 years of hell.

SOXSINCE'70
04-29-2014, 10:13 AM
If they don't want Samardzija, there's a team on the South Side that might take a flyer on him,depending on what the cost will be.

cards press box
04-29-2014, 10:15 AM
If they don't want Samardzija, there's a team on the South Side that might take a flyer on him,depending on what the cost will be.

He can definitely pitch. Wonder what the cost would be?

Bobby Thigpen
04-29-2014, 10:23 AM
The aging veteran/big spending route yielded 3 playoff teams in 5 years with one being within an inning of winning the pennant. None of those teams were as bad as they have been any of the past three years. This year's team looks worse than the previous two years, which didn't seem possible after how bad they were in 2012 and 2013. While it is still too early to call the tenure a bust (unless he leaves in the next two years), I would think the goal would be to at least show improvement and not decline. The Sox were dead in the water last year both at the major and minor league levels, yet they have shown mega-improvement this year at the major league level and appear to have a bright future. All while being run by a GM getting paid a fraction of the cost of Theo and his superstar front office.
But how much did acquiring that talent to surround what homegrown talent they had cost them the past couple years? Buying teams can get you wild amounts of success, but pretty much everyone who has went that route eventually pays the price on the back end. The past 3 years for the Cubs could very well be them paying off that hangover.

The Sox have found that out over the past 3-6 seasons up until this year. And let's not get too giddy here about the Sox. They're what? 1 game over 500? The 2000 team looked destined for greatness too, but eventually had to be majorly re-tooled to go anywhere.

Bobby Thigpen
04-29-2014, 10:24 AM
But I would think that there would have to be a tipping point where the returns, even if they happen if you envision, are not enough to make up for the crap that happens before the returns. Although I guess I was a pretty happy fan in the early '90's after enduring 4 years of pure hell from '86-'89. So maybe there is no such thing. The Pirates fans were happy last year after 20 years of hell.
2005 sure made up for a terrible decade/century that preceeded it.

Moses_Scurry
04-29-2014, 11:20 AM
2005 sure made up for a terrible decade/century that preceeded it.

Well winning a World Series trumps everything. If Theo wins even one World Series while finishing every other season of his tenure with 90-100 losses, he will be revered as a hero. The problem is that even for good teams, winning the World Series is hard. Ask the Texas fans how hard it is. Ask the Indians fans how hard it was in the late '90's. If the cubs win their division a couple times, maybe get a wild card, but fall short of a title, will it be worth 5 years in a row of terrible baseball?

cws05champ
04-29-2014, 11:35 AM
But I would think that there would have to be a tipping point where the returns, even if they happen if you envision, are not enough to make up for the crap that happens before the returns. Although I guess I was a pretty happy fan in the early '90's after enduring 4 years of pure hell from '86-'89. So maybe there is no such thing. The Pirates fans were happy last year after 20 years of hell.
The Cubs are not your normal franchise though...they can put a horrible product on the field and still pull 20-25K per game and pool their resources for later years. Even if they piss off some of the die hard fans by what they are doing now, I believe(and I think cubs Management does too) that the fans will return when they get better and more exciting. And their drop off in fans still pales in comparison to us and other normal franchises.

The problem with doing a complete re-build in today's baseball is you can't subvert the system by paying more for lower draft picks as the Red Sox used to do, it is much harder to build from scratch. The Cubs have some great prospects and good depth but the problem is so do the Pirates and Cardinals and they already have good major league teams.

Moses_Scurry
04-29-2014, 11:51 AM
The Cubs are not your normal franchise though...they can put a horrible product on the field and still pull 20-25K per game and pool their resources for later years. Even if they piss off some of the die hard fans by what they are doing now, I believe(and I think cubs Management does too) that the fans will return when they get better and more exciting. And their drop off in fans still pales in comparison to us and other normal franchises.

The problem with doing a complete re-build in today's baseball is you can't subvert the system by paying more for lower draft picks as the Red Sox used to do, it is much harder to build from scratch. The Cubs have some great prospects and good depth but the problem is so do the Pirates and Cardinals and they already have good major league teams.

You also don't have as many teams willing to trade good prospects for rentals as you used to. So instead of trading a guy in his last contract year for a future impact player, you are getting either C-grade guys or lottery tickets who are years away or coming off injuries.

Hitmen77
04-29-2014, 02:24 PM
This is what, his third season with them? Given how they had pretty much gone the aging veterans/big spending road to build the teams before he got there and he was left with an absolutely terrible roster because of it, I think it's a little early to proclaim his tenure a bust.

Agreed. It sounds like Epstein's plan wasn't to make them a playoff team in 3 years. They're taking a longer rebuild route and it might work out for them in the end.

If they don't want Samardzija, there's a team on the South Side that might take a flyer on him,depending on what the cost will be.

No thanks. Not that I wouldn't want pitching help, but I expect Theo to ask for a very steep price for him. He's all about stock piling prospects. He's going to be looking to raid talent from other farm systems. The Sox farm system isn't deep enough for us to part with top prospects for someone like Samardzija.

PaleHoser
04-29-2014, 03:29 PM
Soriano's quote - "At the end of the day, we play to win. We donít play to have fun and just lose. We play to be a champion.Ē had me in stitches.

Didn't he turn down a trade to the Giants one of the years they won the Series to stay with the Cubs?

doublem23
04-29-2014, 04:05 PM
But I would think that there would have to be a tipping point where the returns, even if they happen if you envision, are not enough to make up for the crap that happens before the returns. Although I guess I was a pretty happy fan in the early '90's after enduring 4 years of pure hell from '86-'89. So maybe there is no such thing. The Pirates fans were happy last year after 20 years of hell.

People live in the now and in the future; I mean, last year's Sox team was the most miserable collection of losers and quitters I've ever seen but I'm completely over them with this new dynamic offense and young core of budding stars.

While this extended losing streak may have long term ramifications (more kids choosing to not become Cub fans, etc.) people who have endured the badness will be happy if these guys develop as expected and become the core of a good team.

doublem23
04-29-2014, 04:09 PM
No thanks. Not that I wouldn't want pitching help, but I expect Theo to ask for a very steep price for him. He's all about stock piling prospects. He's going to be looking to raid talent from other farm systems. The Sox farm system isn't deep enough for us to part with top prospects for someone like Samardzija.

Well the good news for us is we don't have any untouchable, blue chip level prospects.

The way Samardzija is pitching right now he is likely out of the Sox's price range; aside from a couple of young guys at the MLB level, the Sox have 1 real good prospect at the minor league level; Davidson in AAA who is hitting .167/.240/.300 to start the year off. After that there is a glut of middle of the road guys like Micah Johnson, Courtney Hawkins, Tyler Danish, etc... Guys who are nice pieces but have not played their way into elite consideration yet.

dickallen15
04-29-2014, 07:03 PM
The Cubs are not your normal franchise though...they can put a horrible product on the field and still pull 20-25K per game and pool their resources for later years. Even if they piss off some of the die hard fans by what they are doing now, I believe(and I think cubs Management does too) that the fans will return when they get better and more exciting. And their drop off in fans still pales in comparison to us and other normal franchises.

The problem with doing a complete re-build in today's baseball is you can't subvert the system by paying more for lower draft picks as the Red Sox used to do, it is much harder to build from scratch. The Cubs have some great prospects and good depth but the problem is so do the Pirates and Cardinals and they already have good major league teams.

I agree. While the sheep have been thinning out with the 90+ loss seasons, unlike the White Sox, the first sign that they are good again, every ticket will be sold.

SOXSINCE'70
04-30-2014, 11:42 AM
He can definitely pitch. Wonder what the cost would be?


Probably too much.Just a pipe dream,I guess.

Hitmen77
05-30-2014, 12:48 PM
Theo's master plan of going for high draft picks is on track - the Cubs have the worst record in baseball right now.

I agree. While the sheep have been thinning out with the 90+ loss seasons, unlike the White Sox, the first sign that they are good again, every ticket will be sold.

Agreed. As soon as the Cubs post a 90-win season, Wrigley will be sold out again. They have such a large fanbase that they can afford to spend years on a rebuilding plan knowing that all the empty seats will vanish the instant they sniff success.

JB98
05-30-2014, 02:07 PM
LOL at a headline on the Tribune website this morning talking about the Cubs' "core four," meaning Baez, Bryant, Soler and Almora.

Bryant is tearing it up, but Baez and Almora have struggled and Soler is hurt (like usual).

Somehow I doubt this "core four" will carve out the same legacy as that other "core four" in New York (Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada). :rolleyes:

Moses_Scurry
05-30-2014, 02:38 PM
LOL at a headline on the Tribune website this morning talking about the Cubs' "core four," meaning Baez, Bryant, Soler and Almora.

Bryant is tearing it up, but Baez and Almora have struggled and Soler is hurt (like usual).

Somehow I doubt this "core four" will carve out the same legacy as that other "core four" in New York (Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada). :rolleyes:

Bryant is doing in AA almost exactly what Baez did in AA last year and is also prone to the strikeout. It wouldn't be surprising at all to see him struggle in AAA as well.

Demafrost
05-30-2014, 05:26 PM
Theo's master plan of going for high draft picks is on track - the Cubs have the worst record in baseball right now.



Agreed. As soon as the Cubs post a 90-win season, Wrigley will be sold out again. They have such a large fanbase that they can afford to spend years on a rebuilding plan knowing that all the empty seats will vanish the instant they sniff success.

I'm afraid it doesn't even take a 90 win season to get them going considering the Cubs have had 1 90 win season in the last 25 years (not counting 98 when it took them 163 games to get there).

Brian26
05-30-2014, 09:15 PM
2005 sure made up for a terrible decade/century that preceeded it.

Terrible decade? The Sox were a really fun team to watch from the All-Star Break in '99 up to 2005. They had a crummy Todd Richie season in 2002, but after they won the Central in 2000, Kenny had them primed to win the World Series every season (starting with the David Wells/Sirotka trade in Jan 2001). All the moves didn't work out, and the team was scorched by injuries in 2001 and 2004, but I'd call it far from a "terrible decade". If you want to rewind back, '96 was a good year too. Lots of excitement in early '97 with Belle coming on board as well. Of the 10 years preceeding 2005, only '95 and '98, along with post-white flag '97, were really bad. None of those years were even close to the '86-'89 years.

RadioheadRocks
05-31-2014, 12:01 AM
The Cubs are not your normal franchise though...they can put a horrible product on the field and still pull 20-25K per game and pool their resources for later years. Even if they piss off some of the die hard fans by what they are doing now, I believe(and I think cubs Management does too) that the fans will return when they get better and more exciting. And their drop off in fans still pales in comparison to us and other normal franchises.


Exactly, as long as the dog and pony show at Addison and Clark continues, the crowd wil continue to flock there.

Mohoney
05-31-2014, 12:14 AM
If the cubs win their division a couple times, maybe get a wild card, but fall short of a title, will it be worth 5 years in a row of terrible baseball?

When the baseball is, for the most part, terrible around there anyway, I would say that terrible with a plan is better than terrible without a plan. Look at it through our eyes for a second. I think we would all agree that building a team capable of earning multiple consecutive postseason berths at some point would certainly be a welcome sight around here, and I think that was what Rick Hahn had in mind going into this season. Our roster turnover was more accelerated than theirs because it featured more free agent acquisitions and trades. They are trying to home-grow their cornerstones.

WSox597
05-31-2014, 07:42 AM
The huge Cubs fan base out of state, which has mystified many over the years, is about to shrink drastically.

WGN losing sports on their superstation will knock some of them off the bandwagon if the Cubs get hot again.

That's the difference between the Sox and Cub fan bases. The Sox back in the day did that ridiculous Sportsvision thing, and the Cubs went on nationally on WGN superstation. Bang, instant Cub fans in Nebraska and Wyoming, or wherever else there are no pro sports teams. Then the kids follow their parents interests, and pretty soon we're knee deep in Cub fans.

That game is ova', to quote Harrelson.

DumpJerry
05-31-2014, 10:11 AM
LOL at a headline on the Tribune website this morning talking about the Cubs' "core four," meaning Baez, Bryant, Soler and Almora.

Bryant is tearing it up, but Baez and Almora have struggled and Soler is hurt (like usual).

Somehow I doubt this "core four" will carve out the same legacy as that other "core four" in New York (Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada). :rolleyes:
Look, you are just being too biased here. A truly objective observer, Dave Kaplan, was saying on the radio just the other day that Baez is scorching right now.

It's funny listening to Kap in the morning on the radio. The Cubs are the most irrelevant team in town right now with the Hawks being the Hawks, the Bears revamping their defense, the Sox playing above .500 and the Bulls with two first round picks plus Rose. Kap keeps trotting out Cub personnel who explain why losing 100 games a year for several years is a good thing and how, any minute now, they will make baseball historians forget the 1920's Yankee teams.

Give up the ghost, Kap.:rolleyes:

FielderJones
05-31-2014, 10:35 AM
Even Anthony Rizzo (http://www.csnchicago.com/cubs/anthony-rizzo-sick-cubs-talking-about-wrigley-renovation?p=ya5nbcs) is sick of hearing all talk.

After 30+ years of Tribune Company propaganda, with all other media outlets falling in line, I never thought I'd see the day when the Cubs clown organization gets reported on with negative spin.

Hitmen77
06-03-2014, 09:05 AM
LOL at a headline on the Tribune website this morning talking about the Cubs' "core four," meaning Baez, Bryant, Soler and Almora.

Bryant is tearing it up, but Baez and Almora have struggled and Soler is hurt (like usual).

Somehow I doubt this "core four" will carve out the same legacy as that other "core four" in New York (Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada). :rolleyes:

That seems to be a standing headline for the Trib's website. This morning, under "Sports" on their main page, the "Core Four Report" is listed, but no mention at all of the Sox playing yesterday (not that last night's game was anything to be proud of).

The Cubs media hyping the latest Cubs prospects - some things never change.

I'm afraid it doesn't even take a 90 win season to get them going considering the Cubs have had 1 90 win season in the last 25 years (not counting 98 when it took them 163 games to get there).

Is that you, Hangar? :tongue:

Steelrod
06-04-2014, 05:03 AM
The Cubs legions are like sheep being led to the slaughter. Leave WGN, turn Wrigley into the Las Vegas strip. When Theo and company are done, you won't recognize the franchise anymore, except you will be able to find them at the bottom of the NL standings. Keep believing.

Golden Sox
06-04-2014, 10:24 AM
Say what you want about the Cubs but they are still popular. Last nights game against the Mets drew over 34,000. Not a bad crowd to see 2 bad teams. I just hope I never live to see the day when the Cubs actually win a pennant or World Championship. The news media in this city would totally bury the White Sox.

CoopaLoop
06-04-2014, 07:48 PM
Sun Times seem to have a Cubs vendetta. It's very strange.

CoopaLoop
06-04-2014, 07:48 PM
Say what you want about the Cubs but they are still popular. Last nights game against the Mets drew over 34,000. Not a bad crowd to see 2 bad teams. I just hope I never live to see the day when the Cubs actually win a pennant or World Championship. The news media in this city would totally bury the White Sox.

Paid attendance though. A 12 year season ticket waiting list will do that for you.