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View Full Version : Ventura: Beckham will be starting 2B


doublem23
04-25-2014, 09:12 AM
According to an article on whitesox.com from Scott Merkin (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140424&content_id=73210754&notebook_id=73211866&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws):

According to manager Robin Ventura, Beckham resumes his role as starting second baseman. Marcus Semien started at third in place of Gillaspie on Thursday and will hold that spot until Gillaspie returns.

"You don't lose that spot just because you're hurt," Ventura said. "So we expect [Beckham] to be in there."

I'm going to need a FIRE VENTURA tag sooner than later.

:bs::tsk::kukoo::gah::shakehead:

anewman35
04-25-2014, 09:27 AM
I don't really see this as a surprise, really - Robin is sort of an old-school guy, and as that he wouldn't want to basically screw over Beckham just because he was hurt. And, honestly, Semien isn't having THAT great of a year (with the notable exception of the few clutch late homers). I'm not upset about Beckham getting back into the lineup now - what will upset me is if Semien basically never plays - if they're able to get him into the lineup a few times a week somewhere in the infield, and are willing to potentially use him to pinch hit late, then that seems like it's probably ok. (And, obviously, this all changes if you give Beckham a few weeks and he's horrible)

Chez
04-25-2014, 09:31 AM
It wouldn't shock me (once Gillaspie is ready to play) if the Sox decide to send Semien down to get regular AB's and keep L. Garcia on the active roster as the super utility guy.

Brian26
04-25-2014, 10:04 AM
I don't really see this as a surprise, really - Robin is sort of an old-school guy, and as that he wouldn't want to basically screw over Beckham just because he was hurt.

One wonders what kind of alternate timeline in baseball history would have occurred if Robin managed Wally Pipp and Lou Gehrig.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 10:20 AM
One wonders what kind of alternate timeline in baseball history would have occurred if Robin managed Wally Pipp and Lou Gehrig.

Yes, let's replace the career .250 hitter with the guy hitting a blistering .235 this year. Teal implied.

You absolutely get Beckham as many at bats as you can now through the all star break. Either he hits well, helps us, and we keep him or flip him to a contender in need of a 2B, or he hits poorly and you know it's time to move on.

Lotta people here wanted Viciedo gone too. Now he's a WSI hero again.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 10:22 AM
I should add, this is backup-quarterback-itis everybody around here has caught.

anewman35
04-25-2014, 11:01 AM
One wonders what kind of alternate timeline in baseball history would have occurred if Robin managed Wally Pipp and Lou Gehrig.

It's not really clear why Wally Pipp was benched, but it's quite possible that it was just because he wasn't hitting. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Pipp#1925:_Removal_from_the_Yankees.27_start ing_lineup

kittle42
04-25-2014, 11:03 AM
Exactly. Since when did Marcus Semien become a great player?

amsteel
04-25-2014, 11:07 AM
Yes, let's replace the career .250 hitter with the guy hitting a blistering .235 this year. Teal implied.

Let's replace the 0.235 hitter with the guy who if he didn't have an ML contract would have been sent to single A.

hoosiersoxfan
04-25-2014, 11:14 AM
Beckham is a career .248 hitter. While that's not great it isn't as awful as many make him out to be. He is also one of the best fielding second basemen in the majors. It isn't like Semien has come up and set the world on fire.

I'd rather have Semien be a utility IF giving Beckham and Gillaspie days off a couple times a week.

Brian26
04-25-2014, 11:25 AM
It's not really clear why Wally Pipp was benched, but it's quite possible that it was just because he wasn't hitting.

For decades, Wally Pipp/Gehrig has been a legendary baseball tale and analogical metaphor. Wikipedia research not required.

Kub_Killer_15
04-25-2014, 11:26 AM
It wouldn't upset me the slightest just to take a hit and send the pretty boy to the braves. He will be right at home striking out more than he makes contact and he can suck it up @ his home. He is a bust, its not 2009 no more.... how many chances does this franchise give out until they realize he is never going to be a productive offensive player in the bigs? Too many! He plays good D but who cares when the sox put him at one of the easiest positions but whatever.:scratch:

Noneck
04-25-2014, 11:35 AM
It wouldn't shock me (once Gillaspie is ready to play) if the Sox decide to send Semien down to get regular AB's and keep L. Garcia on the active roster as the super utility guy.

That makes sense. Semien needs to play everyday where L Garcia is a utility guy. The only way Beckham gains any worth is if he plays. Gillaspie may gain some kind of worth also by playing.

doublem23
04-25-2014, 11:54 AM
Exactly. Since when did Marcus Semien become a great player?

Gordon Beckham's career WAR = 5.5
Marcus Semien's career WAR = 1.2

When normalized for the same amount of PA (BR uses 650), Semien's WAR is 2.5x larger than Beckham's, 4.9 vs. 1.9.

Beckham sucks. Long live Marcus.

At least is Beckham is playing on Saturday, it will give me someone to viciously boo.

Mohoney
04-25-2014, 12:50 PM
I should add, this is backup-quarterback-itis everybody around here has caught.

That comparison doesn't really translate well. When football fans irrationally fall in love with a backup quarterback, it is because they are convinced that:

1. Their team is capable of competing for a playoff spot.

2. The backup quarterback will lead the team to immediate short-term improvement in wins and losses.

I doubt that the pro-Semien camp thinks this way. They do, however, think that Semien is a part of our future, and Beckham is not, and therefore Semien should play every day. I share that sentiment with them.

Mohoney
04-25-2014, 12:53 PM
Exactly. Since when did Marcus Semien become a great player?

I would think that Semien's chances of developing into a great player, or even a good one, or even a serviceable one, are higher than Gordon Beckham's chances.

dickallen15
04-25-2014, 01:14 PM
At least is Beckham is playing on Saturday, it will give me someone to viciously boo.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Sox fans going to Sox games and excited to boo Sox players.

dickallen15
04-25-2014, 01:17 PM
That comparison doesn't really translate well. When football fans irrationally fall in love with a backup quarterback, it is because they are convinced that:

1. Their team is capable of competing for a playoff spot.

2. The backup quarterback will lead the team to immediate short-term improvement in wins and losses.

I doubt that the pro-Semien camp thinks this way. They do, however, think that Semien is a part of our future, and Beckham is not, and therefore Semien should play every day. I share that sentiment with them.

Well Semien is getting on base at almost a .290 clip, and whiffing at a rate a little over 200, you know, Adam Dunn 2011 levels. I could understand why that would translate into thinking he's a part of the future.

People love Semien and glance over his warts only because they hate Beckham. If they looked at Semien the same way they look at Beckham they would be ready for Micah Johnson time.

doublem23
04-25-2014, 01:22 PM
Well Semien is getting on base at almost a .290 clip, and whiffing at a rate a little over 200, you know, Adam Dunn 2011 levels. I could understand why that would translate into thinking he's a part of the future.

People love Semien and glance over his warts only because they hate Beckham. If they looked at Semien the same way they look at Beckham they would be ready for Micah Johnson time.

Semien's also on pace to put up nearly 5 WAR per year if you extrapolate his career numbers out to 650 plate appearances. Beckham's never even approached coming close to that. Oh yeah, and Marcus is getting paid roughly 1/10th of Gordon's salary.

I get the Sox are trying to showcase him; I'll just have to keep myself wam knowing that Beckham will either be traded or non-tendered before next year, so I'll never have to see him again. He sucks.

harwar
04-25-2014, 01:32 PM
You absolutely get Beckham as many at bats as you can now through the all star break. Either he hits well, helps us, and we keep him or flip him to a contender in need of a 2B, or he hits poorly and you know it's time to move on.

Exactly, Hahn is building a team and this is what needs to be done .. Beckham isn't the future here, guys like Semien are, and they need to find a way to move Gordon Beckham to another team and get something decent in return .. the games are fun to watch again, for the most part, but i'm not kidding myself that this is our year .. if Beckham is still on the White Sox next year, then i'll be upset..

TDog
04-25-2014, 01:52 PM
Semien has struggled offensively more than fans have noticed because he's had a few big hits. But he has been up seven times with runners at third and less than one out and has only one RBI, that coming from a bases-loaded walk. In five of those RBI chances, he struck out five times. Only one American League player has struck out more, although Semien struck out one fewer time than Beckham did in Detroit on Thursday.

I like Semien, and I understand the Semien love. Fans see Semien having the potential of being a stronger player than Beckham, who they have been watching for years with little satisfaction. The ceiling on Semien looks higher right now, but doesn't look as good right now as Beckham did when he came up. And Beckham, as good as he looked as a rookie, was no Lou Gehrig.

Tragg
04-25-2014, 01:57 PM
At least is Beckham is playing on Saturday, it will give me someone to viciously boo.

Well, to be fair, he's not inserting himself into the lineup.
This mantra "you can't lose your position because of injury" is ridiculous. Positions are earned and you stay there via performance.

Mohoney
04-25-2014, 02:01 PM
Well Semien is getting on base at almost a .290 clip, and whiffing at a rate a little over 200, you know, Adam Dunn 2011 levels. I could understand why that would translate into thinking he's a part of the future.

People love Semien and glance over his warts only because they hate Beckham. If they looked at Semien the same way they look at Beckham they would be ready for Micah Johnson time.

Marcus Semien has been to the plate less than 200 times as a Major League hitter. Gordon Beckham has been to the plate almost 2500 times as a Major League hitter. Gordon Beckham is a known quantity, one we would like to improve upon if we can. I think that Marcus Semien could get better with more at-bats, which is something I don't think will happen with Gordon Beckham.

I agree with DoubleM. I'm glad that this is only temporary until Beckham is either traded at the deadline for whatever we can get for him (which, in all honesty, I would try to do right now if I were Rick Hahn) or non-tendered next offseason.

TomBradley72
04-25-2014, 02:41 PM
We DESPERATELY need pitching- especially bullpen arms- Hahn has three ways to address that- the draft, trades and free agency next winter.

Building trade value for Beckham to address that need (not much trade bait in the organization) is a high priority(especially since Keppinger and DeAza won't bring anything)- if the price for that (from now to the trade deadline) is few lost ABs for Semian- that's the way it needs to be.

He's 23 yo- a full season in MLB with a few hundred ABs is still a good year of development for him.

Long term- it's between him and Micah Johnson to see who is our 2nd baseman.

doublem23
04-25-2014, 02:50 PM
You guys really think Beckham is going to bring back anything worthwhile? Any sane GM has to know he's going to get non-tendered by the Sox this winter, he's already making $4 M to provide barely adequate production. Nobody's giving up anything of value for a commodity that will likely be on the open market in a few months. At best, we get some crap-ass AA-level pitcher who struggles for a few years in the minors before being unceremoniously released.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2014, 02:59 PM
For what it's worth, Sox historian and former Tribune associate sports editor Bob Vanderberg e-mailed me a few weeks back.

Vandy had talked with Peter Gammons about the Sox and Gammons told him that a G.M. said by 2016 the Sox infield will be Abreu, Johnson (whom Gammons said has great talent and a cornerback's body), Tim Anderson (last year's #1) pick and Davidson.

The G.M. said with that kind of talent it won't take the Sox long to contend again.

Lip

Paulwny
04-25-2014, 03:04 PM
You guys really think Beckham is going to bring back anything worthwhile? Any sane GM has to know he's going to get non-tendered by the Sox this winter, he's already making $4 M to provide barely adequate production. Nobody's giving up anything of value for a commodity that will likely be on the open market in a few months. At best, we get some crap-ass AA-level pitcher who struggles for a few years in the minors before being unceremoniously released.

Agree, the only way the Sox would obtain a decent minor league player is if a contending team has a 2nd baseman go down and they don't have a serviceable replacement in the minors.

TomBradley72
04-25-2014, 03:30 PM
Agree, the only way the Sox would obtain a decent minor league player is if a contending team has a 2nd baseman go down and they don't have a serviceable replacement in the minors.

Agree-

Tragg
04-25-2014, 04:44 PM
The one thing Hahn hasn't been able to accomplish is dumping these vets. Now, it's not a criticism, just an observation. Moving these guys along isn't an easy feat and they are trying to keep the ML team competitive while rebuilding.

PalehosePlanet
04-25-2014, 05:07 PM
Well Semien is getting on base at almost a .290 clip, and whiffing at a rate a little over 200, you know, Adam Dunn 2011 levels. I could understand why that would translate into thinking he's a part of the future.

People love Semien and glance over his warts only because they hate Beckham. If they looked at Semien the same way they look at Beckham they would be ready for Micah Johnson time.

Marcus is just a kid and in order to improve at the MLB level he needs to play everyday. It doesn't matter what his stats are at this time.

It's simply mind boggling to me how many here at WSI have simply lost focus of what this year, and very likely next year, is about: development of our young players. We need to let our top prospects play: growing pains and rookie blunders are to be expected.

It's unfortunate that we lost a year of Avi's development but the other kids have to play. To block a young, OBP minded kid, like Semien (in the top 10 in the AL in pitches seen per AB) by benching him for a proven bust like Beckham is absolutely stupid and goes against the current organizational philosophy.

I hope some of you are right and we're simply showcasing him for a trade.

Hitmen77
04-25-2014, 05:28 PM
The one thing Hahn hasn't been able to accomplish is dumping these vets. Now, it's not a criticism, just an observation. Moving these guys along isn't an easy feat and they are trying to keep the ML team competitive while rebuilding.

He was able to unload Rios last year.

Boondock Saint
04-25-2014, 05:35 PM
He was able to unload Rios last year.

And Peavy. And Thornton. And Crain.

kittle42
04-25-2014, 05:42 PM
It's simply mind boggling to me how many here at WSI have simply lost focus of what this year, and very likely next year, is about: development of our young players. We need to let our top prospects play: growing pains and rookie blunders are to be expected.

I do agree with you on what this year is about, but it's not mind-boggling that others do not see it. A lot of fans just see every season as an all-out-win-the-championship thing, even the more dedicated ones.

TaylorStSox
04-25-2014, 05:59 PM
He was able to unload Rios last year.

Rios is a stud. Beckham sucks.

Tragg
04-25-2014, 05:59 PM
He was able to unload Rios last year.
Yea, and he was the one we really needed to get off the team. But we got a utility infielder. We didn't get anything for Thornton or Crain - and, of course, they weren't worth much of anything.
I just want to see if we can move Ramirez and/or De Aza for some legitimate players/prospects. And Beckham too, if he'll wake up.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 06:02 PM
Let's say, just hypothetically, that Gordon had not gotten injured, and he had been hitting the way Viciedo is hitting. Would we all be for dumping him for nothing just so Semien could play? No? Then why are you for that now? Give Gordon a month or two at least to see if he can get going and earn us a return at the very least. If he's doing well at the deadline, deal him. If he's not, get rid of him for a bag of balls for all I care. This is a no brainer to me.

TDog
04-25-2014, 06:02 PM
For what it's worth, Sox historian and former Tribune associate sports editor Bob Vanderberg e-mailed me a few weeks back.

Vandy had talked with Peter Gammons about the Sox and Gammons told him that a G.M. said by 2016 the Sox infield will be Abreu, Johnson (whom Gammons said has great talent and a cornerback's body), Tim Anderson (last year's #1) pick and Davidson.

The G.M. said with that kind of talent it won't take the Sox long to contend again.

Lip

If that's what the White Sox master plan is, Semien likely would be pegged as a future utility infielder rather than the future at second base. I don't know that is an organizational expectation, though..

I met Micah Johnson in January, and he looked like a baseball player, but, honestly, I don't know what sorts of bodies cornerbacks are supposed to have. I don't know how far away he is from the majors, but I look forward to having his speed in the White Sox lineup someday.

I've seen Davidson play third in the PCL, and I believed his defense was holding him back. Maybe work on his defense is distracting him at Charlotte because he has pretty much been an offensive black hole there in his first 20 games. Obviously, the White Sox expect more from him. And Tim Anderson isn't tearing up his Class A league.

I don't know how long it's going to take for this talent to develop, and I've seen a lot of baseball talent that never develops at all.

TaylorStSox
04-25-2014, 06:09 PM
Let's say, just hypothetically, that Gordon had not gotten injured, and he had been hitting the way Viciedo is hitting. Would we all be for dumping him for nothing just so Semien could play? No? Then why are you for that now? Give Gordon a month or two at least to see if he can get going and earn us a return at the very least. If he's doing well at the deadline, deal him. If he's not, get rid of him for a bag of balls for all I care. This is a no brainer to me.

First, Beckham is no where near as talented as Viciedo. It's really not close. Second, a 2 week hot streak doesn't change 4 years of being awful. It's like some of you guys think rival GM'S haven't watched a game in 4 years. The book on Beckham has been written. He sucks.

Semien is ready. He needs AB'S against MLB pitching, not AAA.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 06:16 PM
First, Beckham is no where near as talented as Viciedo. It's really not close. Second, a 2 week hot streak doesn't change 4 years of being awful. It's like some of you guys think rival GM'S haven't watched a game in 4 years. The book on Beckham has been written. He sucks.

Semien is ready. He needs AB'S against MLB pitching, not AAA.

To respond to your first point, what are you basing that on? This board thinks Viciedo is a defensive liability. Most of this board has wanted him gone a month ago.

To respond to your second point, Viciedo has been hot for 20 games. Prior to that, pretty much average at the plate and below average on D. For a couple years. But now he's had 20 good games and he's the savior. Why can't Gordon get the same chance in a year where we're expected to do nothing?

Boondock Saint
04-25-2014, 06:21 PM
First, Beckham is no where near as talented as Viciedo. It's really not close. Second, a 2 week hot streak doesn't change 4 years of being awful. It's like some of you guys think rival GM'S haven't watched a game in 4 years. The book on Beckham has been written. He sucks.

Semien is ready. He needs AB'S against MLB pitching, not AAA.

Yeah, it might be different if he just had some holes to patch up, or if he was just inconsistent. He's just been bad. At this point, if he figures it out and catches on somewhere else, great for him. But the Sox are past the point where they can guess wrong on him. If they decide that Beckham has finally figured it out and extend him, and he falls flat again, it's no longer a matter of giving your prospect enough opportunities. It's poor decision making, and not knowing when to cut the cord. It's better to be aggressive with that decision than it is to perpetually play the wait and see game.

TaylorStSox
04-25-2014, 06:22 PM
To respond to your first point, what are you basing that on? This board thinks Viciedo is a defensive liability. Most of this board has wanted him gone a month ago.

To respond to your second point, Viciedo has been hot for 20 games. Prior to that, pretty much average at the plate and below average on D. For a couple years. But now he's had 20 good games and he's the savior. Why can't Gordon get the same chance in a year where we're expected to do nothing?


Viciedo is 3 years younger and raw. Beckham has no where near the tools. Viciedo isn't good defensively, but he's not a liability. Beckham's defense is incredibly overrated. He has no range. The only people that think Beckham is elite defensively need to stop listening to everything Hawk says.

Anyway, this isn't about Viciedo. It's about Gordon Beckham and his 2500 career PA'S of sucktitude.

TomBradley72
04-25-2014, 06:25 PM
With Beckham's reputation for defense- if he gets hot for 30-45 days with the bat and a contender needs a 2nd baseman- I think we can get a bullpen arm for him- no guarantee- but possible.

We have very little on the way from AA/AAA for pitching- it's a worth giving Gordon ABs in May/June to see if we can get an arm in return- and 8 weeks is not going to impact Semian's development- he can still get decent playing time as a part time 3B/SS/2B over that time period.

If Micah Johnson cleans up his defense- I think he's our most likely long term solution at 2nd base.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 06:26 PM
Viciedo is 3 years younger and raw. Beckham has no where near the tools. Viciedo isn't good defensively, but he's not a liability. Beckham's defense is incredibly overrated. He has no range. The only people that think Beckham is elite defensively need to stop listening to everything Hawk says.

Anyway, this isn't about Viciedo. It's about Gordon Beckham and his 2500 career PA'S of sucktitude.

So best just DFA him now? No sense playing him to flip him to a contender if he hits for the first half of the year?

TaylorStSox
04-25-2014, 06:29 PM
So best just DFA him now? No sense playing him to flip him to a contender if he hits for the first half of the year?

I'd put him on waivers. He doesn't have any trade value. Let him be another team's problem. The only possible trade I could see would be bust for bust ie Thornton for Borchard. However Borchard had extreme tools that made GM'S take notice. Beckham doesn't.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 06:41 PM
With Beckham's reputation for defense- if he gets hot for 30-45 days with the bat and a contender needs a 2nd baseman- I think we can get a bullpen arm for him- no guarantee- but possible.

We have very little on the way from AA/AAA for pitching- it's a worth giving Gordon ABs in May/June to see if we can get an arm in return- and 8 weeks is not going to impact Semian's development- he can still get decent playing time as a part time 3B/SS/2B over that time period.

If Micah Johnson cleans up his defense- I think he's our most likely long term solution at 2nd base.

This approach I get.

I'd put him on waivers. He doesn't have any trade value. Let him be another team's problem. The only possible trade I could see would be bust for bust ie Thornton for Borchard. However Borchard had extreme tools that made GM'S take notice. Beckham doesn't.

This approach I don't. Why sell low until you are forced to?

TaylorStSox
04-25-2014, 06:44 PM
This approach I get.



This approach I don't. Why sell low until you are forced to?

Sell low? We're talking about Gordon ****ing Beckham here.

XplodingScorbord
04-25-2014, 07:00 PM
WSI March, 30: Dump Viciedo for nothing, go with DeAza in left, play Gordon to see what you can get. Marcus should stay in Charlotte and play every day to continue to develop.

Beckham gets injured. Viciedo proceeds to hit like Ty Cobb for 3 weeks. DeAza hits under his weight, Marcus Semien plays adequate defense and hits .235.

WSI April 25: Viciedo for MVP! Kill DeAza! Love me some Marcus! Gordon sucks!

How this board doesn't have permanent whiplash I have no idea.

gobears1987
04-25-2014, 07:19 PM
I said it when he got extended and I'll say it again, Ventura has no business managing a MLB team

slavko
04-25-2014, 09:26 PM
I said it when he got extended and I'll say it again, Ventura has no business managing a MLB team

If this is in reference to giving Beckham back his job, my guess is that it was an organizational decision. Showcasing.

soxfanreggie
04-25-2014, 09:39 PM
He never said how long Beckham would keep the starting job. Let's see what Gordon can do and go from there.

Stanley
04-26-2014, 03:21 AM
I don't understand why they brought him back after he hit so poorly in his rehab stint. What was the rush? Are they are as sick of Beckham as we all are and trying to tell him to produce ready or not, now or never? Or do they really think he's so good that he can play like crap in the minors and come up and smack Scherzer and mlb pitching around in general?

anewman35
04-26-2014, 08:52 AM
I don't understand why they brought him back after he hit so poorly in his rehab stint. What was the rush? Are they are as sick of Beckham as we all are and trying to tell him to produce ready or not, now or never? Or do they really think he's so good that he can play like crap in the minors and come up and smack Scherzer and mlb pitching around in general?

Because a "rehab stint" is just that - for rehab. If he was healthy, I don't think they'd be allowed to just leave him here indefinitely (there could probably be a union grievance or something). The exact timing might have been in part due to Gillaspie not being able to play, making us a bit short in the infield.

Bobby Thigpen
04-26-2014, 12:05 PM
Rios is a stud.
Who is this Rios you speak of? It certainly isn't the former White Sox Right Fielder.

TomBradley72
04-26-2014, 12:07 PM
The main trade rumor has the Blue Jays interested- maybe they'll take Beckham and Nestor Molina- and we get Santos back?

amsteel
04-26-2014, 12:19 PM
The main trade rumor has the Blue Jays interested- maybe they'll take Beckham and Nestor Molina- and we get Santos back?

I'd take a bucket of poutine and a Molson Ex.

TaylorStSox
04-26-2014, 01:07 PM
Who is this Rios you speak of? It certainly isn't the former White Sox Right Fielder.

You may not like him, but he's an excellent ball player.

hoosiersoxfan
04-26-2014, 01:10 PM
The main trade rumor has the Blue Jays interested- maybe they'll take Beckham and Nestor Molina- and we get Santos back?

Can they throw in Mr Buehrle too?

tstrike2000
04-26-2014, 03:12 PM
Just keep throwing Beckham high fastballs and he gone.

doublem23
04-26-2014, 03:17 PM
You may not like him, but he's an excellent ball player.

Excellent might be a stretch, but regardless of talent, he's also a lazy, selfish *******. There's a reason the most anyone was willing to part with for him was a crappy utility infielder.

Brian26
04-26-2014, 03:24 PM
Excellent might be a stretch, but regardless of talent, he's also a lazy, selfish *******. There's a reason the most anyone was willing to part with for him was a crappy utility infielder.

Rios is an enigma. He's got the tools, but he also possesses that intangible ability to play like he doesn't care. Never forget he's basically been given away for nothing in return by a team twice now in his career.

TDog
04-26-2014, 04:22 PM
Rios is an enigma. He's got the tools, but he also possesses that intangible ability to play like he doesn't care. Never forget he's basically been given away for nothing in return by a team twice now in his career.

Rios was, probably still is sort of Gary Sheffield lite -- less attitude but less talent to make up for it. The Blue Jays saw the talent and locked Rios up, and Rios saw no reason to work hard to play up to his abilities. The White Sox were in second place, 2 games out when they acquired him. They didn't give the Blue Jays a utility infielder, they said, "here, you pay him." I was at that first game he played in Oakland. If he hadn't dropped a routine fly ball, the White Sox might not have needed the Alexei Ramirez 10th-inning homer off of Breslow. Rios, with all his talent, hit less than .200 for the Sox that season, as the Sox played 6 games under .500 with him and lost 5 games in the standings.

Rios had flashes of great baseball with the White Sox, but he would drop other routine fly balls, not run out ground balls and disappear offensively from time to time. I've got to think the White Sox clubhouse is a better place to be without him.

Stanley
04-26-2014, 04:35 PM
Rios is an enigma. He's got the tools, but he also possesses that intangible ability to play like he doesn't care. Never forget he's basically been given away for nothing in return by a team twice now in his career.

Rios is what he is at this point in his career, and he's pretty much always been just a solid player. Is he worth exactly what his contract pays him? I don't know or care, but when you look at the money being tossed around today, Rios' contract looks easy to swallow. I just think he has a more laid back personality which translates to a bit more nonchalance than a guy like Jonny Gomes, for example, who is terrible but plays like every second on earth is his last. All due respect to Jonny, too. It's all about perception.

doublem23
04-27-2014, 01:49 AM
Rios is an enigma. He's got the tools, but he also possesses that intangible ability to play like he doesn't care. Never forget he's basically been given away for nothing in return by a team twice now in his career.

He is basically the poster child for the "guaranteed contracts make players lazy" argument, he had two phenomenal years in Toronto in 06-07, his first two full years in the Majors, hit nearly .300, put up an OPS of .850, and showed real 20/20 potential. Then he got that big extension from the Jays and has been real up and down since.

Obviously, I don't know him, don't know how he is in the clubhouse or in his personal life, but he always seemed like a guy who just couldn't care less about anything. Always felt like a guy just going through the motions and collecting paychecks.

Naturally, this is the final year of his deal and he's off to perhaps the best start of his career.

Bobby Thigpen
04-27-2014, 10:08 AM
You may not like him, but he's an excellent ball player.
EXCELLENT? You are talking about this guy right?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riosal01.shtml

The same guy who's most comparable for a third of his career to THE Amos Otis.

I think your definition of excellent and mine are vastly different.

Stanley
04-27-2014, 01:57 PM
He is basically the poster child for the "guaranteed contracts make players lazy" argument, he had two phenomenal years in Toronto in 06-07, his first two full years in the Majors, hit nearly .300, put up an OPS of .850, and showed real 20/20 potential. Then he got that big extension from the Jays and has been real up and down since.

Obviously, I don't know him, don't know how he is in the clubhouse or in his personal life, but he always seemed like a guy who just couldn't care less about anything. Always felt like a guy just going through the motions and collecting paychecks.

Naturally, this is the final year of his deal and he's off to perhaps the best start of his career.

Pretty sure he got off to a hotter start last year, IIRC. He also finished the year with some great numbers and had some excellent seasons for the Sox. Seems pointless and impossible to try to determine how much the money has affected his work ethic or whatever some may claim. These kind of accusations almost always seemed tinged with racism to me, or at the very least, are just lazy fan 'journalism'. I can't remember the last time I've seen people make as big of a deal out of some white guys work ethic as they have Rios.

TDog
04-27-2014, 02:16 PM
Pretty sure he got off to a hotter start last year, IIRC. He also finished the year with some great numbers and had some excellent seasons for the Sox. Seems pointless and impossible to try to determine how much the money has affected his work ethic or whatever some may claim. These kind of accusations almost always seemed tinged with racism to me, or at the very least, are just lazy fan 'journalism'. I can't remember the last time I've seen people make as big of a deal out of some white guys work ethic as they have Rios.

Making this a racial thing is ridiculous. It is probably true that in the 1950s and 1960s black players had to work harder so they would not be accused of being lazy because they understood there were fans who would see a lower laziness threshold in non-white players. But the fact that Angels fans used to boo Alex Johnson and call him lazy despite a batting title had more to do with him walking to the dugout instead of running to first when he double-play grounders than the fact that he was black.

There have been plenty of fans accusing Adam Dunn of being lazy, even before he came to the Sox. There are a lot of white players fans consider lazy. I've watched Alex Rios play. I can see that his isn't white. That has nothing to do with considering him lazy.

When I hear people talk about work ethic among baseball players, I don't detect any sort of racial divide. I have watched Rios play. The fact that I can see that he is non-white has nothing to do

Stanley
04-27-2014, 02:34 PM
Making this a racial thing is ridiculous. It is probably true that in the 1950s and 1960s black players had to work harder so they would not be accused of being lazy because they understood there were fans who would see a lower laziness threshold in non-white players. But the fact that Angels fans used to boo Alex Johnson and call him lazy despite a batting title had more to do with him walking to the dugout instead of running to first when he double-play grounders than the fact that he was black.

There have been plenty of fans accusing Adam Dunn of being lazy, even before he came to the Sox. There are a lot of white players fans consider lazy. I've watched Alex Rios play. I can see that his isn't white. That has nothing to do with considering him lazy.

When I hear people talk about work ethic among baseball players, I don't detect any sort of racial divide. I have watched Rios play. The fact that I can see that he is non-white has nothing to do

Well, as far as Dunn goes, I never considered it a work ethic or laziness issue. And IIRC, he made a shade under what he got from the Sox on a contract when he was playing for the Reds, anyway. When you look at Dunn's career and try to make sense of his fall off the face of the earth after joining the Sox, you can see tangible reasons for it. First, he's never been a high average hitter, and people seem to say that power is the first thing to go once a guy is past his prime years. Look at Granderson for one example. Also, he was adjusting to a new league, as well as a new position (DH). So if people have thought that Dunn had a laziness issue, first of all that's just grossly presumptive, and second of all, maybe they were listening to that ex Blue Jays GM, who has since seem to have fallen off the face of the earth himself.

I don't really know anything about the Alex Johnson thing, but stuff like that doesn't tend to bother me. I thought the benching of Bryce Harper recently for sulking after a bad swing and weak grounder to the pitcher was one of the worst decisions in managing history, as far as I'm concerned. I can see that Bryce Harper is white. And I don't know what this has to do with anything.

TDog
04-27-2014, 03:08 PM
Well, as far as Dunn goes, I never considered it a work ethic or laziness issue. And IIRC, he made a shade under what he got from the Sox on a contract when he was playing for the Reds, anyway. When you look at Dunn's career and try to make sense of his fall off the face of the earth after joining the Sox, you can see tangible reasons for it. First, he's never been a high average hitter, and people seem to say that power is the first thing to go once a guy is past his prime years. Look at Granderson for one example. Also, he was adjusting to a new league, as well as a new position (DH). So if people have thought that Dunn had a laziness issue, first of all that's just grossly presumptive, and second of all, maybe they were listening to that ex Blue Jays GM, who has since seem to have fallen off the face of the earth himself.

I don't really know anything about the Alex Johnson thing, but stuff like that doesn't tend to bother me. I thought the benching of Bryce Harper recently for sulking after a bad swing and weak grounder to the pitcher was one of the worst decisions in managing history, as far as I'm concerned. I can see that Bryce Harper is white. And I don't know what this has to do with anything.

If you aren't bothered by stuff like a hitter, whatever his race, walking to the dugout after hitting a double-play ball to short instead of running to first, if you're not bothered Alex Rios not busting it down the line on a ground ball with runners on first and third and one out, which was one of the things some of us were complaining about for years and one of the problems that was there even with his strong offensive numbers last year, I have no problem disagreeing with you.

TaylorStSox
04-27-2014, 03:09 PM
He is basically the poster child for the "guaranteed contracts make players lazy" argument, he had two phenomenal years in Toronto in 06-07, his first two full years in the Majors, hit nearly .300, put up an OPS of .850, and showed real 20/20 potential. Then he got that big extension from the Jays and has been real up and down since.

Obviously, I don't know him, don't know how he is in the clubhouse or in his personal life, but he always seemed like a guy who just couldn't care less about anything. Always felt like a guy just going through the motions and collecting paychecks.

Naturally, this is the final year of his deal and he's off to perhaps the best start of his career.

You don't know a ****ing thing about Alex Rios and his motivations. Take that gossipy **** to TMZ. You got single quote from a teammate that calls him lazy? You guys act like a bunch of chick's in a salon.

Rios had 1 bad season with the Sox. The rest of the time he was a very good player.

doublem23
04-27-2014, 04:04 PM
You don't know a ****ing thing about Alex Rios and his motivations. Take that gossipy **** to TMZ. You got single quote from a teammate that calls him lazy? You guys act like a bunch of chick's in a salon.

Rios had 1 bad season with the Sox. The rest of the time he was a very good player.

Yeah, NO ****ING ****. Perhaps I need to re-emphasize a direct quote from that post...

He is basically the poster child for the "guaranteed contracts make players lazy" argument, he had two phenomenal years in Toronto in 06-07, his first two full years in the Majors, hit nearly .300, put up an OPS of .850, and showed real 20/20 potential. Then he got that big extension from the Jays and has been real up and down since.

Obviously, I don't know him, don't know how he is in the clubhouse or in his personal life, but he always seemed like a guy who just couldn't care less about anything. Always felt like a guy just going through the motions and collecting paychecks.

Naturally, this is the final year of his deal and he's off to perhaps the best start of his career.

Please let me know if you're still having problems comprehending that.

You can whine that Rios is this horribly underappreciated player by Sox fans all you want, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, but as has been correctly pointed out, he's also been dumped for absolutely nothing by two separate teams two separate times in his career. That doesn't happen to "excellent" ballplayers unless they're worthless pieces of **** behind the scenes.

TaylorStSox
04-27-2014, 05:49 PM
Yeah, NO ****ING ****. Perhaps I need to re-emphasize a direct quote from that post...



Please let me know if you're still having problems comprehending that.

You can whine that Rios is this horribly underappreciated player by Sox fans all you want, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, but as has been correctly pointed out, he's also been dumped for absolutely nothing by two separate teams two separate times in his career. That doesn't happen to "excellent" ballplayers unless they're worthless pieces of **** behind the scenes.

You're really starting to embarrass yourself.

Stanley
04-27-2014, 06:34 PM
If you aren't bothered by stuff like a hitter, whatever his race, walking to the dugout after hitting a double-play ball to short instead of running to first, if you're not bothered Alex Rios not busting it down the line on a ground ball with runners on first and third and one out, which was one of the things some of us were complaining about for years and one of the problems that was there even with his strong offensive numbers last year, I have no problem disagreeing with you.

Stuff like that does bother me. If it can affect the odds of our team being victorious, I usually tend to care about it. But I don't believe that was the issue, here. The issue was labeling someone lazy or entitled or something because they dropped a ball a few times or didn't hustle down the line a few times during the course of a season. Just because they are paid like Supermen doesn't mean they are Supermen. The season is long, guys deal with injuries, and even the most successful players have to deal with constant failure in this game. Everyone deals with that in their own way.

TDog
04-27-2014, 06:44 PM
Stuff like that does bother me. If it can affect the odds of our team being victorious, I usually tend to care about it. But I don't believe that was the issue, here. The issue was labeling someone lazy or entitled or something because they dropped a ball a few times or didn't hustle down the line a few times during the course of a season. Just because they are paid like Supermen doesn't mean they are Supermen. The season is long, guys deal with injuries, and even the most successful players have to deal with constant failure in this game. Everyone deals with that in their own way.

The way Rios dealt with things since the Blue Jays locked up his talent led to two teams dumping his contract and no teams thinking highly enough of him to give up much to take on his contract.

amsteel
04-27-2014, 06:44 PM
Obviously, I don't know him, don't know how he is in the clubhouse or in his personal life, but he always seemed like a guy who just couldn't care less about anything. Always felt like a guy just going through the motions and collecting paychecks.

FWIW, one of the broadcasters (can't remember if it was TV or radio) last week talked about he was such a good guy in the clubhouse. Not that I would ever expect someone who's essentially a team employee to say otherwise, but the fact it was said at all says something.

Stanley
04-27-2014, 07:20 PM
The way Rios dealt with things since the Blue Jays locked up his talent led to two teams dumping his contract and no teams thinking highly enough of him to give up much to take on his contract.

You just seem like a guy who can never concede a point. And you also appear obsessed with meaningless facts about a player or their career. Worst kind of sports fan...

fram40
04-27-2014, 07:24 PM
I always thought Rios always looked like he wasn't hustling because he was so damned graceful, one of the more graceful athletes I have watched.

I wanted to like Rios , but he made it very difficult. Perhaps through no fault of his own. Ultimately, he needed to move on

Isn't he now one of the longest-tenured players to have never made the post season?

TDog
04-27-2014, 07:41 PM
You just seem like a guy who can never concede a point. And you also appear obsessed with meaningless facts about a player or their career. Worst kind of sports fan...

There is nothing for me to concede. And you don't know nearly enough about me to attack the quality of my sports fanness.

guillensdisciple
04-27-2014, 07:50 PM
To respond to your first point, what are you basing that on? This board thinks Viciedo is a defensive liability. Most of this board has wanted him gone a month ago.

To respond to your second point, Viciedo has been hot for 20 games. Prior to that, pretty much average at the plate and below average on D. For a couple years. But now he's had 20 good games and he's the savior. Why can't Gordon get the same chance in a year where we're expected to do nothing?


I just can't. Beckham is the Anderson of the white sox. No matter what, there are still people out there that believes he deserves a chance. Even with Semien's poor average, I think he has done more offensively than I have ever seen beckham do. He sucks, lets just let it go already.

TomBradley72
04-27-2014, 07:50 PM
Geez- enough of maknig this a Rios thread-

I like having Beckham's veteran defense in the middle of the infield- and Semia's defense at 3rd is an upgrade over Gillaspie-I think that will help the Sox with their overall consistency.

Brian26
04-27-2014, 07:56 PM
You just seem like a guy who can never concede a point. And you also appear obsessed with meaningless facts about a player or their career. Worst kind of sports fan...

Wow, that's really uncalled for. Not only is that insulting towards TDog, but you probably just insulted half the community here with that comment. I take pride in retaining useless and meaningless trivia about baseball.

I'll give you a little time to re-think that comment. An apology would be appreciated.

Brian26
04-27-2014, 08:00 PM
I always thought Rios always looked like he wasn't hustling because he was so damned graceful, one of the more graceful athletes I have watched.

I wanted to like Rios , but he made it very difficult. Perhaps through no fault of his own. Ultimately, he needed to move on

Isn't he now one of the longest-tenured players to have never made the post season?

My lasting memory of Rios was when he lost a ball in the sun in a game against the Cubs while his shades were sitting atop his cap. After a prolonged silence, Stoney said, "that's unbelievable." Hawk (and this is when they weren't getting along, so it seemed to have more meaning when he agreed with Stone), said in reply, "yes it is, that is REALLY unbelievable. Wow."

Like I said, he's always had the tools, but a guy doesn't get dumped twice for nothing in return (no disrespect to Leury's Garcia) if there aren't issues.

Anyway, let's all chill out. This thing is getting heated from every angle.

shingo10
04-27-2014, 08:11 PM
I just can't. Beckham is the Anderson of the white sox. No matter what, there are still people out there that believes he deserves a chance. Even with Semien's poor average, I think he has done more offensively than I have ever seen beckham do. He sucks, lets just let it go already.


In 2009 Beckham did quite a bit offensively, finished 2nd in Rookie of the Year (I think). Hence the frustration that he hasn't ever come close to duplicating it. But at his best he was better than what Semien has shown so far. However its kind of a moot point at the moment until Gillaspie gets healthy.

doublem23
04-27-2014, 10:41 PM
You're really starting to embarrass yourself.

Well I guess you're right, Alex Rios is:

1) An amazingly talented ballplayer
2) Plays with 110% heart and hustle all the time
3) Is a world class individual off the field, as well

All of these things must be true because not once, but twice, in his career that he's been essentially released by his employer with barely a shrug and a "**** it." Dude's worth on the open market is a crap ass middle infielder whose career will be a success if he hits .200/.280/.300.

At least one of 1, 2, or 3 is a lie. Since I don't know anything about these guys I can't tell you what it is, but come on, man, read between the lines.

PalehosePlanet
04-27-2014, 11:31 PM
Well I guess you're right, Alex Rios is:

1) An amazingly talented ballplayer
2) Plays with 110% heart and hustle all the time
3) Is a world class individual off the field, as well

All of these things must be true because not once, but twice, in his career that he's been essentially released by his employer with barely a shrug and a "**** it." Dude's worth on the open market is a crap ass middle infielder whose career will be a success if he hits .200/.280/.300.

At least one of 1, 2, or 3 is a lie. Since I don't know anything about these guys I can't tell you what it is, but come on, man, read between the lines.

Come on Doub, he was simply a salary dump by us. Hann's thinking was basically: No use dropping 13 million on a player in 2014, when it would be a rebuilding year. Leury was/is also an above average rated prospect (C/C+ type.) We probably could have gotten more had we tossed 3 or 4 million to Texas in the deal, but it seems JR doesn't do that. Obviously Dunn/Konerko/Danks were untradeable. Alex was our only high paid player that could be moved because he was actually performing.

slavko
04-27-2014, 11:47 PM
In 2009 Beckham did quite a bit offensively, finished 2nd in Rookie of the Year (I think). Hence the frustration that he hasn't ever come close to duplicating it. But at his best he was better than what Semien has shown so far. However its kind of a moot point at the moment until Gillaspie gets healthy.

I have a good memory too. He fell off the table with the bat in early August 2009 once the pitchers caught up with him and hasn't been able to get it back since, except for brief periods. He was 5th in ROY voting that year because of August and September. Five years of chances is a lot of chances. And don't give me the Anderson love comparison. Anderson had eight weeks of chances until Ozzie pulled the plug. Brian and Gordon are pretty much the same guy, IMO.

doublem23
04-28-2014, 12:17 AM
Come on Doub, he was simply a salary dump by us. Hann's thinking was basically: No use dropping 13 million on a player in 2014, when it would be a rebuilding year. Leury was/is also an above average rated prospect (C/C+ type.) We probably could have gotten more had we tossed 3 or 4 million to Texas in the deal, but it seems JR doesn't do that. Obviously Dunn/Konerko/Danks were untradeable. Alex was our only high paid player that could be moved because he was actually performing.

Oft-injured and unreliable Jake Peavy has at least as much, and potentially double, as much money as Rios is owed and he netted the Sox a Top 100 BA prospect and we didn't have to give anyone a cent.

FWIW, Nick Markakis gets paid more this year than Alex Rios. His contract isn't THAT bad.

Mohoney
04-28-2014, 01:05 AM
Oft-injured and unreliable Jake Peavy has at least as much, and potentially double, as much money as Rios is owed and he netted the Sox a Top 100 BA prospect and we didn't have to give anyone a cent.

FWIW, Nick Markakis gets paid more this year than Alex Rios. His contract isn't THAT bad.

I don't disagree at all with the overall point about Rios not being worth much at the trade deadline, but the only reason Jake Peavy netted a top 100 prospect is because the third team involved in the deal panicked and made a bad decision. Boston almost went in a different direction because they didn't want to give up any of their blue-chip prospects and needed Detroit to facilitate the deal.