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View Full Version : ***Official*** Bullpen rocked by Rockies - Rockies 10, Sox 4 Postgame Thread


ChiSoxGal85
04-09-2014, 06:38 PM
Too bad that a nice start by Erik Johnson was wasted by Viciedo's awful play on a flyball, that eventually led to a tie game; and then the game was put out of reach by Belisario and Petricka.

The bullpen is worriesome. Webb and Cleto are the only two who have done their jobs so far this season. And our closer has a WHIP of 3.00 and ERA of 13.50.

Complete games by all our starters may be required from here on out.

I hope Avi Garcia is not out too long. He was just heating up.

SoxSpeed22
04-09-2014, 06:41 PM
I just hope Garcia is okay. The good news is that if it comes down to it, in June or so, there are available options in Charlotte for the pen (that just sounded incredibly weird).

Crestani
04-09-2014, 06:48 PM
Too bad that a nice start by Erik Johnson was wasted by Viciedo's awful play on a flyball, that eventually led to a tie game; and then the game was put out of reach by Belisario and Petricka.

The bullpen is worriesome. Webb and Cleto are the only two who have done their jobs so far this season. And our closer has a WHIP of 3.00 and ERA of 13.50.

Complete games by all our starters may be required from here on out.

I hope Avi Garcia is not out too long. He was just heating up.

Ya think? At this rate no lead is safe, there is no one out there right now that the Sox can trust with a lead....Downs may be done..!!

FoulTerritory
04-09-2014, 06:58 PM
CBS reporting that xrays were negative on Garcia for fracture and separation.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24520267/white-soxs-avisail-garcia-leaves-game-with-possible-shoulder-injury

amsteel
04-09-2014, 07:01 PM
The Sox are still a team we can expect to lose the bulk of series on the road.

Dear god I hope they can find some young cheap arms for the pen.

LoveYourSuit
04-09-2014, 07:13 PM
Too bad that a nice start by Erik Johnson was wasted by Viciedo's awful play on a flyball, that eventually led to a tie game; and then the game was put out of reach by Belisario and Petricka.

The bullpen is worriesome. Webb and Cleto are the only two who have done their jobs so far this season. And our closer has a WHIP of 3.00 and ERA of 13.50.

Complete games by all our starters may be required from here on out.

I hope Avi Garcia is not out too long. He was just heating up.

Disagree on Johnson. Thought he was terrible once again.

Madvora
04-09-2014, 07:19 PM
It looks like this team could be something special if they could just pitch.

shingo10
04-09-2014, 07:30 PM
The Sox are still a team we can expect to lose the bulk of series on the road.

Dear god I hope they can find some young cheap arms for the pen.


They'll be losing the bulk of series anywhere if they don't address the bullpen issue. In this day and age it is crucial to have a solid bullpen and the Sox clearly don't. Starting from closer and trickling on down. Not really sure if it will be fixable for this year or not but it's frustrating to watch.

Soxman219
04-09-2014, 07:58 PM
It's still early, I'll give it until mid-May to worry about the pen. But man, they aren't doing us any favors so far. Tank being an every day OF'er now? Yay!

guillensdisciple
04-09-2014, 08:07 PM
It looks like this team could be something special if they could just pitch.


Again, I really believe this is a two year deal. The layout is here- for the first time in a long time we see an idea and a finish line. We have one stud pitcher, a good 3 pitcher, and a good 5. Plug in those holes while you can, and fix the bullpen. The White Sox are an exciting prospect because of this. Honestly, if this offense is as incredible as it has looked in the past couple of days, I think we can do some great things.

Think about it- our bullpen has yet to pitch a no run game. That's insane, and is why we are 1 under. A good bullpen, and this team is riding high right now.

Sure, Avi is injured and we are probably in trouble, but as currently constructed, I feel this offense is a powerhouse.

Eaton is awesome. Semien deserves to stay up- I really dislike Gordon. Abreu, well, let deadspin slobber for you, and Avi will be a stud if he stays uninjured. That's a solid top of the order.

Just have hope and enjoy this year. I saw this loss coming, but was not deflated. There is just something invigorating about seeing a freaking plan for the first time in years.

Zakath
04-09-2014, 08:27 PM
Disagree on Johnson. Thought he was terrible once again.

Well, he wasn't quite as bad as he was on Friday in KC, but he's still not even close to giving us a quality start.

This team's going to have to find some quality RH starters. Our lefties as a group are very good, but our righties are horrid right now.

Over By There
04-09-2014, 09:02 PM
I wasn't impressed with Johnson, either... but he battled and kept the Sox in the game. If Coop could find some magical pixie dust to sprinkle on this bullpen this team could be a lot of fun...

WSox597
04-09-2014, 09:13 PM
Any chance of Rienzo coming up and getting a start? He was decent last year, and decent would be an upgrade from Johnson.

The offense is fun to watch, which is a huge upgrade from the last couple of years.

.500 would be outstanding, if they can reach it. After last year's debacle, any improvement would be good.

doublem23
04-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Any chance of Rienzo coming up and getting a start? He was decent last year, and decent would be an upgrade from Johnson.

Johnson has a much higher upside as a prospect than Reinzo. Again, you have to take the long view with this team. They're not built to win today. And I think the Sox will happily take their lumps with Johnson right now if he's making progress on his pitches towards a better future.

Noneck
04-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Any chance of Rienzo coming up and getting a start? He was decent last year, and decent would be an upgrade from Johnson.




Id like to see Rienzo up also but in addition to Johnson. This is the time to give the kids a shot to see what they can do.

MISoxfan
04-09-2014, 10:25 PM
I knew this pen was going to be bad, but I didn't see this coming. Things have to level off a bit, right?

ChicagoG19
04-09-2014, 10:37 PM
I knew this pen was going to be bad, but I didn't see this coming. Things have to level off a bit, right?

Coop will fix'em.

LoveYourSuit
04-09-2014, 11:37 PM
Johnson has a much higher upside as a prospect than Reinzo. Again, you have to take the long view with this team. They're not built to win today. And I think the Sox will happily take their lumps with Johnson right now if he's making progress on his pitches towards a better future.

Plenty teams go into a season rebuilding with youth and end up contending for something at the end.

Especially now with the added wild card.

This whole notion that we are fine with just losing games as long as young players "take their lumps" is completely false. Everyone including the front office is expecting this team to win games (or at least try) and stay in the race for a wild card spot. If they fade late in August, then fine.

That being said, it's still early to write off a guy like Johnson with only two starts. Especially when there is no better option down on the farm. Rienzo? No thanks. Now you want to replace Paulino for Rienzo today, go right ahead. No argument here. Paulino is a washed up journeyman at this point.


I would give Johnson 3 more turns and see if he improves. If he's still averaging a 2.0+ WHIP in the next three starts, then yes maybe he needs to go back down to work on his stuff and gain confidence. Because you also don't want the guy going out there every 5 days at this level getting used to the feeling that he just can't get ML hitters out.

KRS1
04-09-2014, 11:38 PM
Johnson's stuff just isn't very good and if the pen keeps up this pace, I hope they trash them and just bring up kids to see what they can do.

Soxman219
04-09-2014, 11:55 PM
Johnson has a much higher upside as a prospect than Reinzo. Again, you have to take the long view with this team. They're not built to win today. And I think the Sox will happily take their lumps with Johnson right now if he's making progress on his pitches towards a better future.

How about for Paulino?

BainesHOF
04-10-2014, 12:44 AM
The bullpen is the team's worst in my memory. Hahn is going to have to do something. Even when you're rebuilding, you can't go through a season with relievers pitching batting practice. It takes a toll on a team in a way that you don't want developing players to experience.

JB98
04-10-2014, 01:26 AM
Johnson did struggle, but at least in this game he was able to minimize damage in some innings. He didn't allow things to get out of hand, and the Sox still had every opportunity to win when he left the mound. He didn't win the game, but he didn't cause the Sox to lose either. Young guy, not much experience, let's see if he improves.

In fairness to Belisario, I think some of those Colorado hits are outs at U.S. Cellular Field. That's a fast infield they have there in Denver. That's the kind of situation where you need a strikeout pitcher to come out of the 'pen, and Belisario is not that. He's a ground-ball guy, and it just didn't work out for him.

I'm more concerned about Downs than any other pitcher we saw today, quite honestly. He's yet to demonstrate to me that he has enough stuff to get left-handed hitters out, and really, that's the only job he has. He's useless if he can't retire Alex Gordon or Justin Morneau in a key situation.

Whitesox029
04-10-2014, 02:15 AM
The bullpen is the team's worst in my memory. Hahn is going to have to do something. Even when you're rebuilding, you can't go through a season with relievers pitching batting practice. It takes a toll on a team in a way that you don't want developing players to experience.
I think 9 games in is too early to proclaim anything. Quick, pick two years that the Sox went 4-5 in their first 9 games apart from 2014?

1983 and 2013 would be two examples.

This extrapolates to also not jumping the gun on judging the offense or the bullpen. They're probably not going to average 6 runs per game all season, and the bullpen isn't going to have an ERA north of 7 all season either. At the end of April I'll be ready to talk about calling the bullpen the worst (or most improved--whatever happens) in my memory.

mzh
04-10-2014, 08:21 AM
When it comes to Johnson, I'll take multiple years of minor league dominance along with a few solid ML starts last year over a two game sample size, one of which was in Colorado. Give the kid time, that's what this year is for. If they contend, fantastic, but let's be realistic- dumping Johnson to get a couple extra Ws this year is a terrible big picture move.

socko82
04-10-2014, 09:08 AM
The bullpen is the team's worst in my memory.

Remember 2007?

Risk
04-10-2014, 09:18 AM
Remember 2007?

Sadly, I do. The pen is bad right now but 2007 was hands down the worst that I had ever seen.

Risk

Irishsox1
04-10-2014, 09:51 AM
Downs is toast. He should retire.

AnkleSox
04-10-2014, 10:01 AM
Belisario - 5 ER on 16 pitches? Is that a record?

smac38
04-10-2014, 10:11 AM
Belisario - 5 ER on 16 pitches? Is that a record?

He is awful. His numbers from last year were beyond deceptive too. Decent ERA and a lot of appearances, but he allowed somewhere in the realm of 65% of inherited runners to score. He's not fooling anyone.

asindc
04-10-2014, 10:28 AM
I think 9 games in is too early to proclaim anything. Quick, pick two years that the Sox went 4-5 in their first 9 games apart from 2014?

1983 and 2013 would be two examples.

This extrapolates to also not jumping the gun on judging the offense or the bullpen. They're probably not going to average 6 runs per game all season, and the bullpen isn't going to have an ERA north of 7 all season either. At the end of April I'll be ready to talk about calling the bullpen the worst (or most improved--whatever happens) in my memory.

Agreed. You would think we are 40 games into a season in which we were expected to be a strong contender judging from some of the posts in this thread.

doublem23
04-10-2014, 12:18 PM
How about for Paulino?

Perhaps, though I think Paulino's stuff has been OK but his command has been pretty spotty. This is a guy coming off major arm surgery, remember, so it will probably take a little while for him to iron out all his mechanics.

I do think that the Sox are more than comfortable to sacrifice present wins for future growth. I don't think they're in all-out tank mode like our neighbors 11 miles to the north or the Marlins or Astros of 2013, but I think when push comes to shove, this is not the KW-era Sox any more that made sometimes questionable long-term moves in search of short-term success. No more trading Hudson and Holmberg for Edwin Jackson. No more trading Gio for Swisher. Paulino falls in this camp, if the Sox see him as a guy who could help potentially as early as 2015 (they hold an option for next year) I think they are more than happy to let him work some stuff out for this year. Much in the same way Garcia isn't getting sent to AAA; you don't learn how to hit Major League pitching in AAA and you don't relearn how to pitch to Major League hitters in AAA.

This is the unpleasant part of growth, the inconsistency, the lousy games, this is what you sign up for when you undergo a major roster rebuild, but I honestly think that the Sox are putting themselves in a position to be a real dark horse contender in 2015. Abreu, Eaton, and Avisail (hopefully) will have a full season of MLB experience under their belt. Davdison will be here. Dunn and Konerko will be gone meaning there will be more money and more roster flexibility. Semien could be an everyday player.

The price you pay for that, however, is short-term frustration. But you have to stay the course. The first foundations of the '05 team, for instance, was arguably laid in 1996 when they drafted Joe Crede. It takes time to build a winner in baseball.

hawkjt
04-10-2014, 12:28 PM
Well, he wasn't quite as bad as he was on Friday in KC, but he's still not even close to giving us a quality start.

This team's going to have to find some quality RH starters. Our lefties as a group are very good, but our righties are horrid right now.


He was one video replay call going the Sox way away from a quality start yesterday.]
Of course, he should have never been in that pinch if Dayan does not play that catchable ball into a triple.

Johnson's stuff does not impress me, I concede. Looks very average with 90mph stuff. Still, he was close to getting a quality start in that juiced up park, so I give him some credit.

I have no idea how the Rockies ever pitch well in that park. Sox scored 15 the nite before, and I suspect they will not have such an offensive outburst the rest of the season.
Rock hard infield means grounders pick up speed going to the outfield, and anything hit reasonably well is going to the wall. It is like an amusement park with superballs as baseballs.

I will continue to say that hitting is harder to find than pitching and I prefer having some good hitters for a change, but it does sting to lose leads.

JB98
04-10-2014, 12:40 PM
Sadly, I do. The pen is bad right now but 2007 was hands down the worst that I had ever seen.

Risk

Maybe now is the time I should remind people that in April 2007 on this board, there was a thread asking whether the 2007 Sox bullpen was "the greatest of all time." The "power arms" in the 2007 'pen all got off to great starts in April, only to implode and become one of the worst bullpens ever as the season went along. It was a cautionary tale about making snap judgments too early in a season.

Likewise, we should not make a snap judgment about this bullpen. I don't know that this bullpen will ever be above average, let alone great, but I think there's at least a reasonable chance it's not as terrible as it looks at the moment.

jdm2662
04-10-2014, 02:31 PM
Maybe now is the time I should remind people that in April 2007 on this board, there was a thread asking whether the 2007 Sox bullpen was "the greatest of all time." The "power arms" in the 2007 'pen all got off to great starts in April, only to implode and become one of the worst bullpens ever as the season went along. It was a cautionary tale about making snap judgments too early in a season.

Likewise, we should not make a snap judgment about this bullpen. I don't know that this bullpen will ever be above average, let alone great, but I think there's at least a reasonable chance it's not as terrible as it looks at the moment.

Ah yes, April 2007. Instant gratification at it's finest.

I always say bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. Hell, the Sox team that won the world series, there were three different closers. The two main setup men who were dominate were out of the league by the next season. The Sox starters went deep in most games. the best bullpens are the ones that aren't used much.

MISoxfan
04-10-2014, 02:39 PM
Ah yes, April 2007. Instant gratification at it's finest.

I always say bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. Hell, the Sox team that won the world series, there were three different closers. The two main setup men who were dominate were out of the league by the next season. The Sox starters went deep in most games. the best bullpens are the ones that aren't used much.

Nobody can say Neal Cotts had a career year that season any longer.