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Bmr31
08-09-2001, 12:35 AM
Has anyone noticed hes up to .243? Hes not a great player, but id take him on my roster. Hes decent defensively and fundamentally sound...

Jerry_Manuel
08-09-2001, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Has anyone noticed hes up to .243? Hes not a great player, but id take him on my roster. Hes decent defensively and fundamentally sound...

:hitless
I bet you wish the Rangers had me still so you could watch me in person BMR.

Bmr31
08-09-2001, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


:hitless
I bet you wish the Rangers had me still so you could watch me in person BMR.

I must admit, im in the minority. Im a Royce Clayton fan.

Jerry_Manuel
08-09-2001, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I must admit, im in the minority. Im a Royce Clayton fan.

:hitless
I will admit that I am a Michael Bolton fan.

Bmr31
08-09-2001, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


:hitless
I will admit that I am a Michael Bolton fan.


ummm Royce? You may want to keep that to yourself, buddy.

Jerry_Manuel
08-09-2001, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
ummm Royce? You may want to keep that to yourself, buddy.

:hitless
Yeah your right he is a no talent ass clown!

duke of dorwood
08-09-2001, 08:25 AM
He has gotten smoother at short as the season has gone on. He seems to be throwing better too. :hitless




I'm at my best in the second half under pressure.

Tragg
08-09-2001, 08:52 AM
He'd be an fine utility infielder.

At, what, 4 million per year, he's a disaster, however. Weve got an owner who wants to dump every pitcher who makes 4 million a year, yet we pay a guy like clayton 4 million a year? Therein is the problem.

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
He'd be an fine utility infielder.

At, what, 4 million per year, he's a disaster, however. Weve got an owner who wants to dump every pitcher who makes 4 million a year, yet we pay a guy like clayton 4 million a year? Therein is the problem.

All I know is, the more I watch the guy, the more he hits and plays errorless ball. There is something to be said for a guy that can make every play in his general vicinity. He made an outstanding play last night and a few slick ones, too. I had been his biggest detractor for the first 2 months, but I can't help but fully enjoy what he's doing right now. He throws a little softly, but I've never seen a SS on the Sox that had such an accurate throwing arm.

I swear, I'm not his dad or his brother. I'm not some Royce Clayton Fan Club President Fan Boy. I fully understand the importance of range and arm throwing strength. That said, I really am starting to like the guy. Plenty of players have peaked at a time later in their careers. Right now, Royce is playing w/ a lot of confidence and cockiness. And I don't blame him.

Fisk Fan
08-09-2001, 09:23 AM
I have to admit, that play into the hole last night was one of the better plays I have seen this year. It did not even make the Web Gems, and neither did Erstads play in center field.

What a shame!

Joel Perez
08-09-2001, 09:27 AM
Didn't we rant and rave yesterday and Tuesday about Royce's improvement?

Where are all of the nay-sayers at now that still say "Royce sucks--he doesn't belong with the Sox"?

The guy is improving--give him a shot. Jose is not 100%. He should be on the DL again.

voodoochile
08-09-2001, 09:47 AM
I'm starting to bend on the Royce issue. If he can finish the season around .260, I'd be willing to give him another shot (like I have any say in the matter anyway) and write the first two months off as settling in while struggling along with the whole club. His defense has been real solid all year long. Odds are he is with the club next year anyway, regardless of what any of us think about him...

Tragg
08-09-2001, 10:31 AM
"Where are all of the nay-sayers at now "

Don't worry I'm still here.

Also still here:

Clayton's outrageous salary

His .243 BA and .295 OBP in 2001.

His career .312 OBP, earned over 10 years.

His limited range and throwing arm.

Did I mention he makes 4 million a year?

To be sure we have other issues: while clayton has walked only 21 times, Carlos Lee has walked only 25 times, e.g.

voodoochile
08-09-2001, 10:33 AM
Actually, his range isn't as bad as I once thought. He gets to almost as many plays as Jose does, over the length of his career.

carltonfisk
08-09-2001, 10:40 AM
Alright, so you can add me to the "bandwagon" (if there is one), as well. Despite his early hitting woes, Royce has really helped out defensively. He has done his share out there and then some, considering Ray's inept skills at second. Last year, Jose had a bunch of errors, but we were able to bounce back with the doubleplays and better offense. Obviously, those two categories are lacking this year (compared to last year). With Royce improving, I can definitely see him on the roster next year. How about Royce doing what Frank did before last year by getting Hrniak (spelling?) or someone to help him with his hitting. That would definitely make a difference next year.

Kilroy
08-09-2001, 11:02 AM
BMR, I'm surprised you got any positive response at all on Royce. I've been pointing this stuff out for over a month now, and all I ever got in response was that Royce sucked no matter what, his D wasn't that good, and his arm sucked too.

doublem23
08-09-2001, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Where are all of the nay-sayers at now that still say "Royce sucks--he doesn't belong with the Sox"?

I am one of those nay-sayers who still says that Royce doesn't belong here.

Let me state my case:

A) Where was this bat at the start of the season??? Its nice he's hitting now when we are, for all practical purposes, out of the race. I'd like to see the Sox climb back into it, but I'm sure Royce will crack.

B) When Valentin is 100%, he is better than Royce Clayton. Wow. Royce Clayton has what? 4 errors? That's because he can't get to balls hit to his sides. If I were to stand out there and field the balls that just came at me, I could probably get through a season with only 7 or 8 errors, even though I am a third baseman. Add to that, errors are somewhat judgement calls. In no way is Ray Durham as good a fielder as his 7 errors will lend you to believe. Sounds like we have a bit of a forgiving scorekeeper.

C) He is a good backup. But at $4.5 million??? HELL NO!

D) Why would you want to jerk around a guy like Jose Valentin to accomodate a guy like Clayton? Jose Valentin, when 100%, is one of the better players on this team. Therefore, why not let him play in his most comfortable defensive position??? Remember last year when he had 36 errors? Isn't it funny how we had 95 wins too? All the injuries have hampered us, but I am confident in the fact that if we had benched Clayton at the start of the season and let Valentin play short, we could have won 4, 5, maybe even 6 games more, meaning instead of sitting at .500 today, we'd be sitting at *gasp* 8, 10, or 12 games over, and also, 1ST PLACE!!!

I am glad that Royce has come on as of late. Don't get me wrong there. I'd rather be wrong and see the Sox win, but I don't see it happening. The only good I see coming from this charge is maybe some GM will be willing to take Royce off our hands.

doublem23
08-09-2001, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, his range isn't as bad as I once thought. He gets to almost as many plays as Jose does, over the length of his career.

Are we watching the same Royce Clayton? The guy I see has pretty bad range.

And that's nice that he's gotten to some balls, but he still has a terrible arm.

The only thing I will say Royce is better at than Jose on the field are balls hit directly at him, and relay throws.

Remember that game against the Cubs were Matthews plowed over Alomar? I wonder if Jose could have made that play...

... but even then, it looked like Royce's arm was going to explode from that throw.

In complete retrospect (I've said this before): Jose Valentin wins more games with his bat than he loses with his glove

Royce Clayton, OTOH, helps lose more games with his bat than he saves with his glove.

voodoochile
08-09-2001, 01:29 PM
Earlier this year, I was ripping on Clayton for not having Valentin's range, but lets look at the stats. At SS over the course of their careers, Valentin averages .02 more chances/inning than Clayton, which comes out to about 30 chances a year... Meanwhile Valentin for his career averages about 11 more errors per year at SS over a 162 game schedule. Defensively there isn't much difference. Arm strength can be a factor and earlier this year when Ray and Royce were unfamiliar with each other it played a bigger role in DP's turned, but you are starting to see the other side of the coin on that one as Royce and Rayhave become more familiar with each other. Defensively it is probably pretty much a wash, with the slight edge going to Clayton for the lower error total. Jose averages about 17 more putouts and assissts/year at SS than Royce for a 162 game schedule. 17 extra outs, 11 extra errors... probably have to go with the lower error toral, because of how they affect pitchers and the other players...

Hitting is all about Jose, and for that reason, if there is no other place to play him, the Sox should go with Jose at SS next year, of course that probably won't happen...

Royce still needs to prove he can get his average up to a respectable number, but at least he isn't the stiff he was in the first two months...

doublem23
08-09-2001, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Royce still needs to prove he can get his average up to a respectable number, but at least he isn't the stiff he was in the first two months...

Exactly my poit. Take the pressure off Royce, and all of a sudden, he performs!

Suddenly he starts to feel a squeeze, and there he goes, another 0-fer-game.

I mean, really, there has been very little pressure on this team to win games since he started heating up, which is why I say that Jose Valentin is the better of the 2.

But, stick the pressure on Jose, and HE PERFORMS!!! He hit .300 (and his OBA was .417) in the ALDS last year, and had an RBI.

Jose is good.

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by doublem23

D) Why would you want to jerk around a guy like Jose Valentin to accomodate a guy like Clayton? Jose Valentin, when 100%, is one of the better players on this team. Therefore, why not let him play in his most comfortable defensive position??? Remember last year when he had 36 errors? Isn't it funny how we had 95 wins too

That kind of crap is so boneheaded, it's ridiculous. You point at his 36 errors and the 95 wins as if it was the errors that led to the wins. Has it ever occurred to you that we won all of those games because we scored 6 runs a game? Do you realize how many games we'd have won this year if we were scoring 6 runs a game? I'll give you a hint: A lot more games than we've currently won!

If we were scoring 6 per game and had a .600 winning percentage, could I then point to Royce and say "see what Royce Clayton did? We won 95 games w/ him at SS."? We won 95 games last year IN SPITE of Jose's errors, not DUE TO them.

Soxboyrob
08-09-2001, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by doublem23

In complete retrospect (I've said this before): Jose Valentin wins more games with his bat than he loses with his glove


Are you basing this on last year, when his errors came at times when the Sox had their usual 4 run lead? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the Sox were very lucky that his errors didn't hurt us more than they did? What if he was making 36 errors at SS while the team was averaging 4.5 runs per game, instead of 6? Those errors would then hurt a lot more.

Kilroy
08-10-2001, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
What if he was making 36 errors at SS while the team was averaging 4.5 runs per game, instead of 6? Those errors would then hurt a lot more.

I'd like to take this one a little bit further. Imagine if you can that 2001 is Jose's first year with the Sox. Now we all love Jose for what he gave us last season, right? Well, imagine if he gave us the exact same numbers as last season, but they just happened during this season, and, again, that 2001 is his first with the Sox.
So the Sox are 56-57, but Valentin has performed EXACTLY as he did last season thru 113 games. So that'd put him at about 23 errors so far.

Do you think we'd love him or hate him?

My money's on hate him...

Tragg
08-10-2001, 07:59 AM
"Has it ever occurred to you that we won all of those games because we scored 6 runs a game?"

yes, it's occured to me.

but has it occured to you that one reason our offense stinks is because of automatic outs like clayton? We wouldn't have scored 6 runs a game with clayton in the lineup.

Now the jose backers overstate his offense - last year was a phenominal year for him; this year is closer to the real jose. Still better than clayton, but not great.

I'm in between - I don't think either one of them should play shortstop for us next year.

Bmr31
08-10-2001, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
BMR, I'm surprised you got any positive response at all on Royce. I've been pointing this stuff out for over a month now, and all I ever got in response was that Royce sucked no matter what, his D wasn't that good, and his arm sucked too.

Kilroy, i wasnt around the board back then. Most guys dont know a lot about baseball and just go by current numbers. The fact is, royce is and always has been a decent hitter, a good fielding SS, with a good arm, and good fundamentals. Id take him at SS over jose anyday. People who were jumping all over him have no patience. Hes not a great player, and i do think we can upgrade at SS, but i'll take him on my team anyday.

Soxboyrob
08-10-2001, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
"Has it ever occurred to you that we won all of those games because we scored 6 runs a game?"

yes, it's occured to me.

but has it occured to you that one reason our offense stinks is because of automatic outs like clayton? We wouldn't have scored 6 runs a game with clayton in the lineup.


True. Very true, but we have mostly replaced Singleton's weak bat of last season w/ Clayton's weak bat of 2001. To me, that's a wash. You're always going to have some weaker bats in the lineup and you have to just hope that they are the guys giving you consistent defense, which was the case for both Singleton and for Clayton. I'm in no way in favor of dumping Valentin and feel that he's the most important cog in the Sox' remaining a contender in the next few years. I even like seeing Val at SS. It just bothers me when people point at the 95 wins and then point to Val's 36 E's and act as if that proves that Valentin ought to be the starting SS. Again, our strong hitting in 2000 helped us win in spite of Val's defense.

Tragg
08-10-2001, 09:44 AM
"Very true, but we have mostly replaced Singleton's weak bat of last season w/ Clayton's weak bat of 2001. "

If that were true, we might be in the race. Unfortunately, we merely added Clayton's weak bat - singleton, until the last month, played most of the year. Add to that, we added a weak hitting baines for our best hitter Thomas. At catcher, we added a weak hitter for a weak hitter (forgetting CJ) but added lots of salary.

Clayton costs 4+million a year. Completely outrageous, especially for this team

And to BMR, Clayton has NOT been a good hitter his career, as his CAREER .312 OBP attests.

We need a young shortstop.

Soxboyrob
08-10-2001, 10:10 AM
Well nobody's going to disagree w/ you about the fact that we need to start looking for a shortstop for the future.

I guess I see your point about $4 million being too much for the Sox to pay for Clayton, but $4M isn't really a lot of money for a consistent SS. To me, $4M is about what you'd expect to pay a mediocre starting SS, since it's the most important position on the field. What's more disconcerting is that you're paying Clayton $4M to play SS while you're also paying Val $5M to play there. That's $9M per year for the SS position, and that's too much for the output we're getting there. Anyway, worrying about Reinsdorf's bottom line is the last thing on my mind.

voodoochile
08-10-2001, 10:19 AM
The fact is, royce is and always has been a decent hitter, a good fielding SS, with a good arm, and good fundamentals. Id take him at SS over jose anyday.

BMR, I did a breakdown yesterday of the difference in fielding between Jose and Clayton yesterday. The fact is that for a 162 game season, Jose has "17 extra outs, 11 extra errors... probably have to go with the lower error toral, because of how they affect pitchers and the other players... "

Now lets look at their hitting...

Over the corse of their careers, Valentin has an OPS that is 90 points higher than Clayton. He also averages an extra 12 RBI and 9 R each year. Clayton hits for a slightly higher career average, but he walks so much less his OBP is actually lower. Over the last two years, Valentin's slugging % has really taken off and his OPS numbers have jumped 80 points from his career average. This year his OPS is 200 POINTS higher than Clayton's. He has more hits, runs, rbis, HR, doubles and walks in 7 fewer games.

Yesterday I said that I was starting to soften on Clayton, I am, but the numbers speak for themselves. Jose should be the SS next year, because anything he costs us defensively, he more than makes up for with his offensive. Throw in his leadership, which no one questions and the choice seems pretty clear to me...

I don't think it will happen, and the Sox will probably end up with both of them, which isn't bad, because it allows the Sox to go with Crede next spring and use Jose as the 3B should Joe prove to not be ready.

In the long run, the team probably needs to upgrade and find a SS who can do both hitting and fielding, but for now, the two headed beast will have to do.

doublem23
08-10-2001, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Are you basing this on last year, when his errors came at times when the Sox had their usual 4 run lead? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the Sox were very lucky that his errors didn't hurt us more than they did? What if he was making 36 errors at SS while the team was averaging 4.5 runs per game, instead of 6? Those errors would then hurt a lot more.

Jose helps win more games with his bat than he helps blow with his glove.

Don't get me wrong. Royce has filled in nicely, but we have a problem if we think Royce Clayton is our everday starting SS.

doublem23
08-10-2001, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
So the Sox are 56-57, but Valentin has performed EXACTLY as he did last season thru 113 games. So that'd put him at about 23 errors so far.

If we stuck 2000 Jose on the 2001 Sox, we're not 56-57 because our starting SS hasn't been "climbing" to .243 for the last 2 months.

Jose helps win more games with his bat than he helps lose with his glove.

For like 1 1/2 months, Clayton's BA of .100ish meant he was average a hit like every 2-3 games. I'm sure that had nothing to do with our slow start, though....

doublem23
08-10-2001, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
We won 95 games last year IN SPITE of Jose's errors, not DUE TO them.

Perhaps, but we also won 95 games last year because Valentin was a key part of tat offense that scored about 6 runs a game.

And you read WAY too much into my post. I wasn't saying "Errors win ballgames!" I was saying that if the price for winning 95 games is a *****load of errors, so be it. Last year was a lot more fun to watch despite the bad defense because we won. This year, even with all the slick D, its not nearly as fun. Injuries have hampered this team, too.

Paulwny
08-10-2001, 12:34 PM
I have a feeling this thread will continue into next season.

doublem23
08-10-2001, 12:46 PM
Well, I'm getting tired of it, so I'm going to post my beliefs on our shortstop situation.

First off: Jose Valentin is a better shortstop than Royce Clayton, FOR THIS TEAM.

Since when was our style of play similar to that of the Minnesota Twins? Good defense, bad offense wins games?

Why did we win 95 games last year? Because we went out there and pounded the ***** out of the other teams, and Jose Valentin was a major reason for that. I mean, if we want to start going the route of "great defense," then it looks like its time to trade guys like Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Ray Durham, and Magglio Ordonez. None of them are the "defensive specialists" that Clayton is hyped to be, but defense wins, so let's scrap this and rebuild for a 2005 championship based on defense.

And no, I don't believe last year was a fluke season for Jose. Throughout his career, when he is playing a stable position, he has performed. When he was on the bench, he has sucked. He's never been jerked around from position to position like this before, but I wouldn't blame him for being pretty pissed off about it.

Perhaps Royce Clayton could be a stud shortstop for a team in the National League who plays little ball. We play long ball, and as long as we have guys like Frank Thomas, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, and Jose Kanseco, we always will.

A player who has been on a 2-month long hot streak who is only batting around .250 doesn't match the style the Sox have played.

Clayton is an admiral fill in. But is he the starting SS the Sox need? No. I'd take Valentin, when healthy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not mad when Clayton does well. I don't shout at the TV or radio "Damn, you Royce!" when he gets a hit. I love to see the Sox win, but if its long term success we're looking for (and it is), we need a new shortstop...

Soxboyrob
08-10-2001, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I have a feeling this thread will continue into next season.

Hey, why not?!

It's all in fun. I don't think anyone here feels Clayton is the answer to our problems. Nor is he the only reason for our problems. Overall, he's been adequate this season. This thread can probably keep going forever and can just be revived from the dead after each game. "Hey, Clayton sucked today. Get rid of him." "Hey, Clayton went 3 for 4 w/ a diving stop at SS. Sign him to a 5 year extention."

If Royce continues to play like he has been lately, he'll be easy to trade for somebody decent.

Paulwny
08-10-2001, 01:20 PM
How do we keep the thread alive between Oct. and spring training.?

Soxboyrob
08-10-2001, 01:24 PM
Lots and lots of trade rumors, my friend.

Bmr31
08-10-2001, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


BMR, I did a breakdown yesterday of the difference in fielding between Jose and Clayton yesterday. The fact is that for a 162 game season, Jose has "17 extra outs, 11 extra errors... probably have to go with the lower error toral, because of how they affect pitchers and the other players... "

Now lets look at their hitting...

Over the corse of their careers, Valentin has an OPS that is 90 points higher than Clayton. He also averages an extra 12 RBI and 9 R each year. Clayton hits for a slightly higher career average, but he walks so much less his OBP is actually lower. Over the last two years, Valentin's slugging % has really taken off and his OPS numbers have jumped 80 points from his career average. This year his OPS is 200 POINTS higher than Clayton's. He has more hits, runs, rbis, HR, doubles and walks in 7 fewer games.


Sorry dude, no offense , but i dont look at stats as a decoding factor. I think jose hurts the team too much with his constant poor defense. IF i wanted to win a championship, id take my chances with royce at SS over jose, based on what my eyes have seen over the years.

Yesterday I said that I was starting to soften on Clayton, I am, but the numbers speak for themselves. Jose should be the SS next year, because anything he costs us defensively, he more than makes up for with his offensive. Throw in his leadership, which no one questions and the choice seems pretty clear to me...

I don't think it will happen, and the Sox will probably end up with both of them, which isn't bad, because it allows the Sox to go with Crede next spring and use Jose as the 3B should Joe prove to not be ready.

In the long run, the team probably needs to upgrade and find a SS who can do both hitting and fielding, but for now, the two headed beast will have to do.

Bmr31
08-10-2001, 07:17 PM
Obviously, i dont base my preference for Royce at SS, based on stats. I go by what ive seen over the years and royce will hurt your team less than jose. On the other hand, they both are sub par and we need a new SS. I would LOVE to have royce as a utility infielder.

doublem23
08-10-2001, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Hey, why not?!

It's all in fun. I don't think anyone here feels Clayton is the answer to our problems. Nor is he the only reason for our problems. Overall, he's been adequate this season. This thread can probably keep going forever and can just be revived from the dead after each game. "Hey, Clayton sucked today. Get rid of him." "Hey, Clayton went 3 for 4 w/ a diving stop at SS. Sign him to a 5 year extention."

If Royce continues to play like he has been lately, he'll be easy to trade for somebody decent.

Just to set the record straight, Soxboy, you are right in saying that it is all in good fun. Despite the fact that we have totally different stances on the subject, you have proven to be a very intelligent and literate opponent.

At least we're not saying ***** like "Royce sucks!" or "Jose sucks!" (or, at least when we do, we can back it up).

:thankgod
That sums it up. I'm glad I bleed silver and black.