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View Full Version : Cardinals interested in Alexei?


doublem23
11-22-2013, 10:06 AM
That is according to GM John Mozeliak in a column from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Cites that the Sox and Cards had some talks at the trade deadline but never got very serious. Says the Sox need to be realistic and not "delusional."

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_04eb8817-658e-5571-88e0-7970aead2b04.html

TDog
11-22-2013, 02:18 PM
I think "delusional" came from the St. Louis columnist, who termed Ramirez a "slick-fielding" shortstop whose offense is fading.

I have no doubt that the White Sox demanded more for Ramirez than the Cardinals were wanting to pay. I wouldn't criticize White Sox management for that. If the White Sox were to trade Ramirez, I would hope it would like it to be fore a return Bernie Miklasz, or even the Cardinals front office considers delusional.

I don't think the White Sox will be any less delusional in regards to Ramirez this off-season after signing Abreu.

kittle42
11-22-2013, 02:47 PM
The Sox are delusional if they are asking for Wacha or Miller or Rosenthal, and I bet that is the case.

dickallen15
11-22-2013, 03:07 PM
The Sox are delusional if they are asking for Wacha or Miller or Rosenthal, and I bet that is the case.

I wouldn't call it delusional, i would call it smart. Apparently the White Sox don't feel Alexei must go so why settle for anything? If you love your house have no intention of moving and one day someone knocks on your door and says they would like to buy your house, do you figure out fair market value and say it's yours or do you offer it a "delusional" price? The White sox aren't in the business of helping the Cardinals.

ZombieRob
11-22-2013, 03:07 PM
In KW we trust. Sox fans know they can count on KW

RCWHITESOX
11-22-2013, 03:23 PM
The Sox just lost out on Bourjos as the Angels traded him to the Cardinals for Freese; guess they weren't interested in Ramirez or DeAza; and then again maybe they got Bourjos to entise the Sox in a Ramirez trade.

TDog
11-22-2013, 03:40 PM
The Sox are delusional if they are asking for Wacha or Miller or Rosenthal, and I bet that is the case.

Why? This isn't the case of the White Sox putting Ramirez on an auction block and withdrawing him because he failed to make the reserve. This is the Cardinals needing a shortstop, going to the White Sox, who didn't even have a back-up shortstop most of last season, and asking what the White Sox would charge for their shortstop.

The Cardinals were a World Series team. If the Cardinals need a shortstop, it's delusional to think they pick up a shortstop without paying for one. The market is based on supply and demand. If you're the Cardinals and you're looking for a shortstop, it's a seller's market. If that weren't the case, the Cardinals would no longer be looking for a shortstop.

I would expect the White Sox not to trade Ramirez unless another team offered a package they couldn't pass up.

sullythered
11-22-2013, 04:01 PM
The Sox just lost out on Bourjos as the Angels traded him to the Cardinals for Freese; guess they weren't interested in Ramirez or DeAza; and then again maybe they got Bourjos to entise the Sox in a Ramirez trade.

Peter Bourjos? Ick. No, thanks. 27 years old, doesn't get on base or his for any power.

Tragg
11-23-2013, 09:40 AM
The Sox just lost out on Bourjos as the Angels traded him to the Cardinals for Freese; guess they weren't interested in Ramirez or DeAza; and then again maybe they got Bourjos to entise the Sox in a Ramirez trade.

Bourjos is a defensive centerfielder. Cards needed one of those....so do wel. They also need a SS. I wouldn't think they'd have ever needed DeAza.

cards press box
11-23-2013, 02:04 PM
The Sox are delusional if they are asking for Wacha or Miller or Rosenthal, and I bet that is the case.

I can't imagine that the Cardinals ever had any interest in dealing any of those guys last summer. But, if I recall correctly, there were rumors that the Sox had interest in Carlos Martinez. I could see the Sox trying to acquire him as either a future starter or closer. I wonder if the discussions that the Sox had in dealing Alexei Ramirez involved Martinez?

blandman
11-23-2013, 03:09 PM
Why? This isn't the case of the White Sox putting Ramirez on an auction block and withdrawing him because he failed to make the reserve. This is the Cardinals needing a shortstop, going to the White Sox, who didn't even have a back-up shortstop most of last season, and asking what the White Sox would charge for their shortstop.

The Cardinals were a World Series team. If the Cardinals need a shortstop, it's delusional to think they pick up a shortstop without paying for one. The market is based on supply and demand. If you're the Cardinals and you're looking for a shortstop, it's a seller's market. If that weren't the case, the Cardinals would no longer be looking for a shortstop.

I would expect the White Sox not to trade Ramirez unless another team offered a package they couldn't pass up.

I don't want to act like there's not a market for shortstops, but it's overstated if we're talking about getting a good price for...lesser quality, which is essentially what Alexei has become. There are a few good shortstops on the free agent market (and one that even comes without any draft pick compensations). There's also a ton of them on the trade market. Why would they pay a high price for Alexei Ramirez if they could, say, contact a team like Cleveland and pay a significantly lower price to take Asdrubal Cabrera off their hands? They make about the same money and were pretty much just as valuable last season.

If we're waiting for the market to make Alexei valuable enough to get a great piece...we'll be waiting until he retires.

cards press box
11-26-2013, 12:42 AM
With the Cardinals' signing Jhonny Peralta, I suppose we can shelve the Alexei Ramirez to St. Louis rumors. But other teams, like the Mets and the Pirates, could use a shortstop, so a trade of Ramirez is not necessarily out of the question.

TDog
11-26-2013, 10:35 AM
I don't want to act like there's not a market for shortstops, but it's overstated if we're talking about getting a good price for...lesser quality, which is essentially what Alexei has become. There are a few good shortstops on the free agent market (and one that even comes without any draft pick compensations). There's also a ton of them on the trade market. Why would they pay a high price for Alexei Ramirez if they could, say, contact a team like Cleveland and pay a significantly lower price to take Asdrubal Cabrera off their hands? They make about the same money and were pretty much just as valuable last season.

If we're waiting for the market to make Alexei valuable enough to get a great piece...we'll be waiting until he retires.

You are totally missing the point. The White Sox were not in the market to trade Ramirez during the season. They have not been in the market to trade Ramirez during this offseason. If you are a team that wants Ramirez, it is inappropriate to claim that the White Sox are overvaluing him. Being open to trading players, listening to what other teams will trade for players, is not the same as putting players on the trade block.

It isn't delusional to hang on to a player you want to keep unless a team impresses you with an offer that a columnist might consider delusional, even if the columnist uses the term "slick-fielding" to describe Ramirez.

JB98
11-26-2013, 12:44 PM
I don't blame the Sox for demanding a high return on Alexei. The fact of the matter is the Sox don't have to trade him. Ask for a player(s) you want, and if you can't get that player, then don't do the deal.

I don't see any reason to trade a guy like Ramirez for some AA guy who will likely never help at the big-league level. What good would that do this organization? The Sox already have plenty of guys in the minors who can't play worth a damn. Why trade Ramirez or anyone else just for the sake of acquiring more of the same?

Brian26
11-26-2013, 01:01 PM
I can't imagine that the Cardinals ever had any interest in dealing any of those guys last summer. But, if I recall correctly, there were rumors that the Sox had interest in Carlos Martinez. I could see the Sox trying to acquire him as either a future starter or closer. I wonder if the discussions that the Sox had in dealing Alexei Ramirez involved Martinez?

Carlos Martinez' name came out in the papers this past summer when the Alexei-to-Cardinals talk first surfaced.

Going back to the original post, and has been stated, the Cardinals did not necessarily claim the Sox were being delusional, nor do we have any evidence that the Sox were asking for Wacha or Rosenthal. That "delusional" statement came from the writer of the column, and it could have been just speculation. I wouldn't read too much into it.

blandman
11-26-2013, 01:12 PM
You are totally missing the point. The White Sox were not in the market to trade Ramirez during the season. They have not been in the market to trade Ramirez during this offseason. If you are a team that wants Ramirez, it is inappropriate to claim that the White Sox are overvaluing him. Being open to trading players, listening to what other teams will trade for players, is not the same as putting players on the trade block.

It isn't delusional to hang on to a player you want to keep unless a team impresses you with an offer that a columnist might consider delusional, even if the columnist uses the term "slick-fielding" to describe Ramirez.

Not only do I disagree with you, I think it's delusional for Rick Hahn to believe he doesn't absolutely have to deal Ramirez at the first chance he gets to unload the contract. The dude is seriously downward trending, and on both sides of the ball.

doublem23
11-26-2013, 01:16 PM
Not only do I disagree with you, I think it's delusional for Rick Hahn to believe he doesn't absolutely have to deal Ramirez at the first chance he gets to unload the contract. The dude is seriously downward trending, and on both sides of the ball.

Yeah but the team's likely not going to contend this year and his contract is no longer prohibitive to the Sox doing anything, as they've cleared plenty of salary off their books, so what difference does it make?

The Sox may as well just let him keep playing, hope he hits a hot streak, and maybe his value will rise. Trading him now is trading at his lowest value, there's no point.

dickallen15
11-26-2013, 02:08 PM
Not only do I disagree with you, I think it's delusional for Rick Hahn to believe he doesn't absolutely have to deal Ramirez at the first chance he gets to unload the contract. The dude is seriously downward trending, and on both sides of the ball.
He put up a 3.1 WAR last year, 8th highest SS in baseball, and 1.9 in 2012. How is that trending down?

Rick Hahn is delusional?

TDog
11-26-2013, 02:36 PM
Not only do I disagree with you, I think it's delusional for Rick Hahn to believe he doesn't absolutely have to deal Ramirez at the first chance he gets to unload the contract. The dude is seriously downward trending, and on both sides of the ball.

Obviously, the White Sox seem to disagree with you or they would not have used Ramirez to help sign Abreu. If you are disagreeing with my assessment of the apparent situation, I think you are mistaken. I see no evidence of the White Sox looking to acquire an everyday shortstop for a team that was challenged to back up Ramirez at shortstop last season.

If you are suggesting Ramirez needs to be purged from the roster, I think your analysis is flawed. I know you like to rip on White Sox management and are eager to jump on a St. Louis beat writer calling the White Sox front office delusional for wanting more that the Cardinals believed he was worth for the "slick-fielding" Ramirez. But in terms of basic economics, it was a silly word for the writer to use.

kittle42
11-26-2013, 03:10 PM
Ramirez is adequate, and reasonably priced. No need to let him go right now. Deadline time? Maybe.

cards press box
11-26-2013, 06:07 PM
I know you like to rip on White Sox management and are eager to jump on a St. Louis beat writer calling the White Sox front office delusional for wanting more that the Cardinals believed he was worth for the "slick-fielding" Ramirez. But in terms of basic economics, it was a silly word for the writer to use.

That St. Louis writer did seem to have an agenda or an ax to grind, didn't he? Well, I will say this: if Pete Kozma, had been a little more "slick fielding," then maybe the Cardinals would have won Game 1 of the World Series and, who knows, maybe that would have propelled St. Louis to the world championship.

Noneck
11-26-2013, 06:21 PM
At a point last year I thought Ramirez would be a hard sell because of his contract. Now I am making an about face, seeing what others are going to get, his contract is indeed reasonable. He has value , how much I dont know but he surely shouldnt be a salary dump. Considering the condition of the Sox organization, everyone should be on the table.

blandman
11-26-2013, 06:30 PM
Yeah but the team's likely not going to contend this year and his contract is no longer prohibitive to the Sox doing anything, as they've cleared plenty of salary off their books, so what difference does it make?

The Sox may as well just let him keep playing, hope he hits a hot streak, and maybe his value will rise. Trading him now is trading at his lowest value, there's no point.

Unless, as I suspect, this is not his low point but rather the begin of him falling apart. He's obviously falling apart defensively, and while I admit he didn't have a horrible year, his power simply disappeared to almost nothing the last two years. He's not fast enough to be effective the way his bat is trending.

sullythered
11-26-2013, 06:58 PM
Unless, as I suspect, this is not his low point but rather the begin of him falling apart. He's obviously falling apart defensively, and while I admit he didn't have a horrible year, his power simply disappeared to almost nothing the last two years. He's not fast enough to be effective the way his bat is trending.

He was a better hitter (and slugger) this year than last. So where is the trend?

ZombieRob
11-26-2013, 08:57 PM
Unless, as I suspect, this is not his low point but rather the begin of him falling apart. He's obviously falling apart defensively, and while I admit he didn't have a horrible year, his power simply disappeared to almost nothing the last two years. He's not fast enough to be effective the way his bat is trending.
Maybe if he stopped playing with the 10lbs of gold around his neck he could get to some balls. The size of that gold piece around his neck is as big as a hub cap

sullythered
11-26-2013, 09:16 PM
Maybe if he stopped playing with the 10lbs of gold around his neck he could get to some balls. The size of that gold piece around his neck is as big as a hub cap

Seriously?

ZombieRob
11-27-2013, 12:40 AM
Seriously?
yes i'm joking. :smile:

StillMissOzzie
11-27-2013, 01:19 AM
The Redbirds threw some $53M to known PED user Peralta, so I think we can dispense with all this talk of their interest in TCM.

SMO
:gulp::gulp:

ZombieRob
11-27-2013, 01:25 AM
The Redbirds threw some $53M to known PED user Peralta, so I think we can dispense with all this talk of their interest in TCM.

SMO
:gulp::gulp:
Plus I really doubt they move him due to Abreu being here. I think they may feel he'd feel at home having a few country men on the team. I think we should also give Ramirez another shot. maybe he bounes back on defense

doublem23
11-27-2013, 07:54 AM
Unless, as I suspect, this is not his low point but rather the begin of him falling apart. He's obviously falling apart defensively, and while I admit he didn't have a horrible year, his power simply disappeared to almost nothing the last two years. He's not fast enough to be effective the way his bat is trending.

OK, but that doesn't answer the question as to why the Sox should move him right now for whatever lowball offer they can get. If all teams are willing to part with for Alexei is a middling, mid-level prospect, why take it? We have plenty of those guys.

His salary isn't impeding the team from making moves, he's not blocking an up and coming SS in the minors, what risk is there in holding him and hoping he has an unexpected return to previous form? The Sox have no risk whatsoever, worse case scenario is he continues whatever downward spiral some people think he's on, he plays out the remaining two years on his deal, and the team and him part ways at the end. It's not really much of a difference than if the Sox traded him for an AAAA-type guy who never amounts to much in the Majors.

Whereas there is significant risk that if they trade him now for a lowball offer, perhaps Alexei finds a second wind and has an unexpectedly solid season, then that's a disaster.

JB98
11-27-2013, 12:35 PM
Not only do I disagree with you, I think it's delusional for Rick Hahn to believe he doesn't absolutely have to deal Ramirez at the first chance he gets to unload the contract. The dude is seriously downward trending, and on both sides of the ball.

LOL. That's ridiculous. His contract is fairly reasonable in the context of the marketplace. Even with his decline, he's still a decent ballplayer and the best option the Sox have at the position.

Should the Sox deal him if they can get someone they want in return? Absolutely. This team isn't going to be built to win in 2014, so I don't have a problem moving Ramirez for somebody who can be a part of the future. But I don't see any benefit to moving him for spare parts and salary relief. The Sox need neither of those two things. They've moved plenty of money off the books in the last 6 to 8 months, and their minor leagues are already full of organizational filler.