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Hitmen77
10-14-2013, 10:50 AM
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/sports&id=9286174

10 years ago today, the Cubs were 5 outs away from the NL pennant and then the roof caved in and they gave up 8 runs to the Marlins in the 8th inning. Classic Cubs. .....also classic Cub-dom to find a scapegoat (Bartman) and not blame it on the players who gave up those 8 runs.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200310140.shtml

As much as that meltdown of a game was highly entertaining to me, I really feel sorry for Steve Bartman and I hope he's leading a peaceful life.

KenBerryGrab
10-14-2013, 11:07 AM
Even better than the grounder going through Leon Durham's legs vs. San Diego in '84.

mzh
10-14-2013, 11:18 AM
Even better than the grounder going through Leon Durham's legs vs. San Diego in '84.
Just to side track about this for a second, I was reading an article about the '84 LCS, and noticed that San Diego had home field in the series even though the Cubs had the better record. Anyone know why this was?

DumpJerry
10-14-2013, 11:55 AM
Just to side track about this for a second, I was reading an article about the '84 LCS, and noticed that San Diego had home field in the series even though the Cubs had the better record. Anyone know why this was?
Inability to have night games?

thomas35forever
10-14-2013, 12:07 PM
Can't believe it's been 10 years already. Seems like only yesterday I was reveling in the misery of all of Cubdom.

DSpivack
10-14-2013, 12:26 PM
CSN Chicago will have a documentary on that team tomorrow night:

http://www.csnchicago.com/show/5-outs

ESPN's Catching Hell was pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6NsWdRfgAk

eriqjaffe
10-14-2013, 12:28 PM
Just to side track about this for a second, I was reading an article about the '84 LCS, and noticed that San Diego had home field in the series even though the Cubs had the better record. Anyone know why this was?I think they just alternated East-West back then.

lpneck
10-14-2013, 12:37 PM
Just to side track about this for a second, I was reading an article about the '84 LCS, and noticed that San Diego had home field in the series even though the Cubs had the better record. Anyone know why this was?

Back in the day, the LCS simply alternated with who had home field advantage every year between divisions (the same way that it alternated between leagues for the World Series.) In 84 the NL West had the homefield advantage.

Here is what I can't figure out, though- how come in 1985 the NL West had the homefield advantage?

1982- Cardinals vs. Braves, homefield Braves (NL West)
1983- Dodgers vs. Phillies, homefield Phillies (NL East)
1984- Cubs vs. Padres, homefield Padres (NL West)
1985- Cardinals vs. Dodgers, homefield Dodgers (NL West)
1986- Mets vs. Astros, homefield Astros (NL West)
1987- Giants vs. Cardinals, homefield Cardinals (NL East)

Does anyone have any idea why 1985 was flipped and the NL East did not get home field advantage that year?

lpneck
10-14-2013, 12:50 PM
Back in the day, the LCS simply alternated with who had home field advantage every year between divisions (the same way that it alternated between leagues for the World Series.) In 84 the NL West had the homefield advantage.

Here is what I can't figure out, though- how come in 1985 the NL West had the homefield advantage?

1982- Cardinals vs. Braves, homefield Braves (NL West)
1983- Dodgers vs. Phillies, homefield Phillies (NL East)
1984- Cubs vs. Padres, homefield Padres (NL West)
1985- Cardinals vs. Dodgers, homefield Dodgers (NL West)
1986- Mets vs. Astros, homefield Astros (NL West)
1987- Giants vs. Cardinals, homefield Cardinals (NL East)

Does anyone have any idea why 1985 was flipped and the NL East did not get home field advantage that year?

Interesting that the same pattern happened in the American League. 1985 was the first year of the best-of-7 format, not sure if that had anything to do with it.

1982- Angels vs. Brewers, homefield Brewers (AL East)
1983- Orioles vs. White Sox, homefield White Sox (AL West)
1984- Royals vs. Tigers, homefield Tigers (AL East)
1985- Royals vs. Blue Jays, homefield Blue Jays (AL East)
1986- Angels vs. Red Sox, homefield Red Sox (AL East)
1987- Tigers vs. Twins, homefield Twins (AL West)

Moses_Scurry
10-14-2013, 12:51 PM
CSN Chicago will have a documentary on that team tomorrow night:

http://www.csnchicago.com/show/5-outs

ESPN's Catching Hell was pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6NsWdRfgAk

Lame. What's the point of another documentary? Unless Bartman is actually breaking his silence, there isn't much new ground that can be covered.

kittle42
10-14-2013, 12:55 PM
Can't believe it's been 10 years already. Seems like only yesterday I was reveling in the misery of all of Cubdom.

Greatest pre-2005 game ever.

DumpJerry
10-14-2013, 12:59 PM
Greatest pre-2005 game ever.
Nope.

This (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199107310.shtml) was.

fram40
10-14-2013, 01:12 PM
I remember watching the game with my wife (a nominal Cub fan, at least then). When Gonzalez booted the double play grounder, I said to her, "Here we go. A collapse for the ages"

It never occurred to me to blame Bartman. It was strictly on the players.

Game 7 was even better tho. Watching Woody blow it.

jdm2662
10-14-2013, 01:12 PM
Lame. What's the point of another documentary? Unless Bartman is actually breaking his silence, there isn't much new ground that can be covered.

Other than the Cubbie Loving tool media members crying again on TV, not much.

Ten years tonight, I went bowling. I should make a movie about that.

chisoxfanatic
10-14-2013, 01:26 PM
I was a senior at ISU at the time. I was only one of three people who walked out of Elroy's in downtown Bloomington happy that night.

ChiSoxFann
10-14-2013, 01:45 PM
I turned the game off because I had no intention of watching the Cubs secure a World Series berth. Then my uncle, who isn't really a baseball fan, called and asked if I was watching the game and told me the Cubs were losing. I turned the game back on during that inning and watched all of game 7. It was glorious watching that team fall apart. Then to top it off after they came so close 2 years later the Sox won the World Series.

And with CSN, way to be late to the party. The ESPN Catching Hell film was really good and made you feel sorry for Bartman and what he went through that night and in the time since. I can't imagine CSN will even come close to the quality of that one.

spawn
10-14-2013, 02:44 PM
It's just sad this man is still having to relive this. No one knows the names of the other two guys going for that ball that night. Just pitiful he got the blame for it, even though, as has been mentioned, Gonzalez let that dP grounder go through his legs, or that Wood couldn't win Game 7. I felt really bad for the guy.

kittle42
10-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Nope.

This (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199107310.shtml) was.

I remember exactly where I was for that grand slam. Great call - I stand corrected.

Isn't it great that we remember games in the middle of the season in a sport with 162 games per year? All I needed to do was see the score when I clicked on that and I knew exactly what it was.

roylestillman
10-14-2013, 03:35 PM
I remember working way late that night, and was racing to catch the 9:45 Rock Island. From the time I left work (City Hall) until the time I got to LaSalle Street station, the Marlins had scored the eight runs. It was the first time I remember being inundated with texts ( back in the day you had to press the 2 three times to make a C.)

I had standing room tickets the next day for game 7 and was busted by a SunTimes reporter, who knew me from work, for taking pictures of distraught Cub fans.

Some of my richest baseball memories.

Chez
10-14-2013, 04:08 PM
I gotta say that the Chicago and National media coverage of that series caused my Cub hatred to reach its zenith. All the footage of the fans on the streets outside Wrigley acting like, well; acting like we all would have if the same thing had been going on at ballpark on 35th Street. I was truly seething for almost a week straight. Total Rage Mode. And then pfftt. Gone.

Since the Sox won the WS in 2005, my contempt for the Cubs and the total Cub Experience has mellowed. Maybe I'm just getting charitable in my old[er] age.

TommyJohn
10-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Nope.

This (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199107310.shtml) was.


I'll go with this one:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA198309170.shtml

And this one:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199309270.shtml

DumpJerry
10-14-2013, 05:03 PM
I remember exactly where I was for that grand slam. Great call - I stand corrected.

Isn't it great that we remember games in the middle of the season in a sport with 162 games per year? All I needed to do was see the score when I clicked on that and I knew exactly what it was.
I was in the LF Corner. It will be forever known as "the Robin Ventura game" in my book. It was my most memorable Comiskey moment until I attended Game II of the 2005 World Series.

Since I was at the game, I did not hear Hawk endow a new nickname that night on a certain Sox player he started calling "The Big Hurt."

Brian26
10-14-2013, 06:02 PM
I was in the LF Corner. It will be forever known as "the Robin Ventura game" in my book. It was my most memorable Comiskey moment until I attended Game II of the 2005 World Series.

Since I was at the game, I did not hear Hawk endow a new nickname that night on a certain Sox player he started calling "The Big Hurt."

Definitely the best New Comiskey game in its first 15 years. I still have my original VHS tape of the game. Saw it live when it happened and then taped the replay on SportsChannel, which they used to re-run overnight.

beasly213
10-14-2013, 06:45 PM
Man, 10 years. I was at the old Oasis 160 concert venue in Chicago Heights that night. I was meeting up with some girl and trying to impress her or something. As I was walking out I looked up at the screen and saw the Cubs were winning going into the 8th. I actually said out loud to myself "Well, I'm going to have to accept that the Cubs are going to the World Series"

I then turned on q101 on the way home so I didn't have to hear anything about it. Then at some point on my drive home one of the DJs said "Oh man, something really bad is going down at Wrigley." I assumed their fans tore the stadium down out of celebration, he then went on to describe what happened. I watched sportscenter over and over that night.

Then after game 7 my smart ass friend and I were given the cold shoulder at every sports store in Orland Square mall when we asked for Marlins hats. :D:

DumpJerry
10-14-2013, 07:16 PM
As my Purple Line train went past Addison tonight, I was looking at how quiet everything was considering that at that point in time ten years ago (6:30 or so), the area was overrun with bedlam and high hopes that would not get crushed.

Ten years ago today, I was waiting to find out if I was buying a Red Sox or Yankees' uniform. One of my friends and I decided to swollow hard and buy the complete uniform of whatever team the Cubs faced in the World Series.

Thank goodness I did not have to put that **** on by body.

FielderJones
10-14-2013, 08:45 PM
We had celebrated FJ Jr's 9th birthday earlier that day, but I just remember feeling sicker and sicker to my stomach as the innings wore on and it looked like the Sox were going be buried in a flurry of Cub-dumb. And then lightning struck, and I went to sleep a very happy man.

Railsplitter
10-14-2013, 09:56 PM
It's just sad this man is still having to relive this. No one knows the names of the other two guys going for that ball that night. Just pitiful he got the blame for it, even though, as has been mentioned, Gonzalez let that dP grounder go through his legs, or that Wood couldn't win Game 7. I felt really bad for the guy.

I always thought Bartman was unjustly blamed. In fact I think as many as six people were reaching for the ball.

Smokey Burg
10-14-2013, 10:19 PM
It almost made me sick when nearly everyone involved with the cub franchise ended up blaming a fan for costing them the WS. I just don't understand how reasonable people could possibly blame that fan. Also, I've been in those seats. Catching a foul ball there is not a foregone conclusion. I doubt if Moises Alou could have made that catch in the first place.

Also, some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Cheering for the cubs to blow a playoff series is almost as bad as ancient Romans cheering for the lions while they tore apart Christians.

However, it was nice to hear the same cub fans who blamed the fan whine and wail about AJ in 2005.

StillMissOzzie
10-14-2013, 11:13 PM
I turned the game off because I had no intention of watching the Cubs secure a World Series berth. Then my uncle, who isn't really a baseball fan, called and asked if I was watching the game and told me the Cubs were losing.

Me too. And then, I get a call from a friend in Minneapolis (!) asking me if I am loving this collapse. Glorious in epicness.

It's just sad this man is still having to relive this. No one knows the names of the other two guys going for that ball that night. Just pitiful he got the blame for it, even though, as has been mentioned, Gonzalez let that dP grounder go through his legs, or that Wood couldn't win Game 7. I felt really bad for the guy. Especially the lucky SOB who actually got the baseball and auctioned it off for over $100K to the dufus at Harry Caray's to spice up their spaghetti sauce, while maintaining his anonymity.

SMO
:gulp:

Edit: After seeing the Rangers get within one strike of the World Series, TWICE, getting within 5 outs is just meh.

StillMissOzzie
10-14-2013, 11:16 PM
It almost made me sick when nearly everyone involved with the cub franchise ended up blaming a fan for costing them the WS. I just don't understand how reasonable people could possibly blame that fan. Also, I've been in those seats. Catching a foul ball there is not a foregone conclusion. I doubt if Moises Alou could have made that catch in the first place.

Also, some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Cheering for the cubs to blow a playoff series is almost as bad as ancient Romans cheering for the lions while they tore apart Christians.

However, it was nice to hear the same cub fans who blamed the fan whine and wail about AJ in 2005.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Give me a break!

SMO
:bandance:

WhiteSox5187
10-14-2013, 11:21 PM
I always thought Bartman was unjustly blamed. In fact I think as many as six people were reaching for the ball.

That's a good point but I think that people overlook the fact that Prior was still up 1-2 in the count with one out and up two runs. People also overlook the bobbled double play ball that would have ended the inning. Had Alou not freaked out the way he did, I wonder if people would have blamed Bartman. I still don't think I have ever seen a player freak out like that over a foul ball.

slavko
10-15-2013, 12:31 AM
I gotta say that the Chicago and National media coverage of that series caused my Cub hatred to reach its zenith. All the footage of the fans on the streets outside Wrigley acting like, well; acting like we all would have if the same thing had been going on at ballpark on 35th Street. I was truly seething for almost a week straight. Total Rage Mode. And then pfftt. Gone.

Since the Sox won the WS in 2005, my contempt for the Cubs and the total Cub Experience has mellowed. Maybe I'm just getting charitable in my old[er] age.

That's 2 of us, brother. Lost Game 5 with the Big Z, then 6 and 7. It took 8 years for my Cubbie loving buddy to admit to me that he was standing in the crowd on Waveland waiting for the glorious moment, walked a few blocks home after the "8" went up and saw the end of the game on TV.

Gotta find that inning again on YouTube.

thomas35forever
10-15-2013, 01:34 AM
That's 2 of us, brother. Lost Game 5 with the Big Z, then 6 and 7. It took 8 years for my Cubbie loving buddy to admit to me that he was standing in the crowd on Waveland waiting for the glorious moment, walked a few blocks home after the "8" went up and saw the end of the game on TV.

Gotta find that inning again on YouTube.
Jw3ccParGxM
This is as good as one can find right now.

TDog
10-15-2013, 02:51 AM
Of course the fan shouldn't be blamed for blowing the lead. The Cubs did that on their own. But if you're a good fan into the game as the Cubs are counting the outs on one hand to get to the World Series for the first time in almost half a century, there no way you don't back off to give your team a chance to play the ball. If it's the radio you're listening to on those ear buds, the announcer has to be talking about Alou having a shot at the ball. If it's not the game in your ears, you're an oblivious joke in the stands.

I've been in the front row in foul territory quite a bit, and I always defer to the defender. It's rare that people I've been sitting near don't. If the stakes were as high as they were in the Steve Bartman game, I don't see how other fans could have let that happen. I've seen fans harassed out of their seats for less than Steve Bartmen did.

I didn't see the play live. As it happened, I heard it on the radio in Alaska, and the announcers thought Alou had a play on the ball. After the inning ended, I went in to work to cover a planning commission meeting, and the commissioners were joking about the fan that cost the Cubs a trip to the World Series.

This wasn't just something that would have happened to anyone in a similar situation. It was embarrassingly bad form for a baseball fan, magnified under the circumstances. Of course, the Cubs collectively lost it after that. It's hard to imagine the way the play came down was just a coincidence. It was as if the team gave up, pitching-wise. Defense-wise. It was as if there was suddenly an enormity of pressure on the Cubs, and it they fell apart under it.

I can't imagine things would have gone the same way the foul ball had drifted six rows into the seats. I watched the replay of the inning and the Cubs are a different team after the play than they were before it. And after botching the Miguel Cabrera double play grounder, the Cubs became tighter still.

Steve Bartman wasn't to blame. But apparently the Cubs' psyche was so fragile, they were playing so tight, that one fan looking like he could have cost the team one out when things seemed firmly under control was all it took to unravel the season. I'm just happy that a White Sox fan isn't the object lesson Steve Bartmen has become around the country. But it wasn't, and a couple of hours after the game, there was an incredible aurora display over Juneau, as if in celebration.

No doubt the Cubs' NLCS collapse cost the Yankees a World Series title.

tstrike2000
10-15-2013, 07:54 AM
The 30 for 30 "Catching Hell" was very interesting when I caught it a year or two ago. Now that 10 years has past, I have a lot of respect for Bartman for staying private and not trying to capitalize publically and monetarily from the whole thing.

PaleHoser
10-15-2013, 09:10 AM
Your pitcher is at 110+ pitches and just threw ball four off the backstop. Your opponent's three hitter is coming to the plate and is the tying run.

If there was ever a situation screaming for a pitching change, that's it. I can't believe Dusty left Prior in the game. Unbelievable.

Dan H
10-15-2013, 09:27 AM
I read Paul Sullivan's story and thought it was pretty good. He went over how people tried to profit off of Bartman. But after I thought about it, I thought he should've concentrated some on the horrible reaction of Cub fans. They were way over the top in many ways and I think much worse than the people who wanted to make some money.

Re Dusty Baker: He sat on his hands when he should have least come out and calmed his team down. 5 outs. That's all they needed. How many times does a hitter get new life when a foul ball isn't caught? If a team goes nuts every time that happens, it would never get through a season.

Bottom line: The Cubs and their fans choked big time. And they have only themselves to blame.

doublem23
10-15-2013, 09:29 AM
Your pitcher is at 110+ pitches and just threw ball four off the backstop. Your opponent's three hitter is coming to the plate and is the tying run.

If there was ever a situation screaming for a pitching change, that's it. I can't believe Dusty left Prior in the game. Unbelievable.

Seriously, I had forgot the sequence of that inning until I watched the video in this thread this morning. Unbelievable.

The Cubs blew a 3-1 series lead in the NLCS. They've been swept in 2 NLDS series since then. 9 consecutive losses in the postseason is the longest active streak in the Majors.

GABP
10-15-2013, 09:33 AM
The 30 for 30 "Catching Hell" was very interesting when I caught it a year or two ago. Now that 10 years has past, I have a lot of respect for Bartman for staying private and not trying to capitalize publically and monetarily from the whole thing.

Why do you have respect for that? He had a chance to set his family up for life monetarily...hell yeah I would have capitalized on that

doublem23
10-15-2013, 09:40 AM
Why do you have respect for that? He had a chance to set his family up for life monetarily...hell yeah I would have capitalized on that

The guy had to be escorted out of Wrigley by security and was getting death threats almost immediately, perhaps he feels it's better for him and his family to stay out of the public eye. Money doesn't buy everything.

slavko
10-15-2013, 10:23 AM
He's changed his appearance and you wouldn't recognize him, I once read. Dusty did come out for a confab on the mound to calm things down, the video (or some other video) showed.

Golden Sox
10-15-2013, 10:27 AM
The TV show on Comcast should be called "Winners never lose and Losers never win". The Cubs had a 3-1 lead in the series and still lost the series. There fan base have always been crybabies who have always been good at the blame game.

beasly213
10-15-2013, 10:51 AM
Here's game 7. A game they had a lead and blew


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2laVtbFFIGw&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLi70flcQkwNtV0pELwH_6QMipar_M6U6k

SI1020
10-15-2013, 11:26 AM
Jw3ccParGxM
This is as good as one can find right now. Yes that's true. Some other longer ones have been taken down I assume because of copyright laws.

DeadMoney
10-15-2013, 02:11 PM
Seriously, I had forgot the sequence of that inning until I watched the video in this thread this morning. Unbelievable.

The Cubs blew a 3-1 series lead in the NLCS. They've been swept in 2 NLDS series since then. 9 consecutive losses in the postseason is the longest active streak in the Majors.

Since that moment in 2003, the Cubs have been outscored 53-18 in Postseason games.

waldo_the_wolf
10-15-2013, 05:14 PM
All I know is Alex Gonzalez better count his blessings every day of his life. It angers me that we talk about "the Bartman game" or "the Bartman ball" instead of "the Gonzalez game" or "the Gonzalez ball".

TommyJohn
10-15-2013, 05:36 PM
I read Paul Sullivan's story and thought it was pretty good. He went over how people tried to profit off of Bartman. But after I thought about it, I thought he should've concentrated some on the horrible reaction of Cub fans. They were way over the top in many ways and I think much worse than the people who wanted to make some money.

Re Dusty Baker: He sat on his hands when he should have least come out and calmed his team down. 5 outs. That's all they needed. How many times does a hitter get new life when a foul ball isn't caught? If a team goes nuts every time that happens, it would never get through a season.

Bottom line: The Cubs and their fans choked big time. And they have only themselves to blame.


Paul Sullivan wrote a story about it, but didn't mention the horrible behavior of the fans? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

thomas35forever
10-15-2013, 06:34 PM
If it's the radio you're listening to on those ear buds, the announcer has to be talking about Alou having a shot at the ball.
Actually, I just watched Catching Hell again today and they pointed out that the radio was on a seven-second delay. By the time the pitch was even delivered on the broadcast, the play was already over. Bartman had no warning other than the ball heading in his direction.

And if your immediate instinct is to get out of the way of that ball, I applaud your quick wits.

Brian26
10-15-2013, 07:16 PM
Actually, I just watched Catching Hell again today and they pointed out that the radio was on a seven-second delay. By the time the pitch was even delivered on the broadcast, the play was already over. Bartman had no warning other than the ball heading in his direction.

And if your immediate instinct is to get out of the way of that ball, I applaud your quick wits.

WGN and WSCR do not run, to my knowledge, delays on the radio broadcasts for baseball. WMVP did not either.

TDog
10-15-2013, 07:21 PM
Actually, I just watched Catching Hell again today and they pointed out that the radio was on a seven-second delay. By the time the pitch was even delivered on the broadcast, the play was already over. Bartman had no warning other than the ball heading in his direction.

And if your immediate instinct is to get out of the way of that ball, I applaud your quick wits.

I read that ESPN radio, what I was listening to, was on a delay but WGN radio was not. Maybe the information was outdated. If there was a radio delay, there would have been no good reason to be wearing the ear buds that night.

Lots of people don't interfere with pop flies at the stands. Most people defer to the outfielder, amazingly even when the outfielder is playing for the visiting team in games of less consequence. Not waiting to see if Alou was going to catch the ball wasn't a reflex, it was the actions of a dumb fan.

Of course, it's Cubs fans pride themselves on having started throwing back home runs to show they care more about their team than the souvenir, making this whole thing a bit ironic.

Brian26
10-15-2013, 07:22 PM
By the way, tonight is the real anniversary. Game 6 was a huge moment, but any cautious fan knew that there was still a game to be played...Game 7. Carlton Fisk had a great moment in '75, but the Reds won that series.

I went to work the next day with a smile, but any smart Sox fan knew not to gloat too much as there was still one game to be played. Game 7 was the post-game party to remember.

Brian26
10-15-2013, 07:25 PM
I read that ESPN radio, what I was listening to, was on a delay but WGN radio was not. Maybe the information was outdated. If there was a radio delay, there would have been no good reason to be wearing the ear buds that night.

Exactly. If there was a delay, he was insane to be wearing ear buds.

I would not doubt the national feed was on delay, but the Chicago teams still run the games live (no delay) for the fans who want to listen to the broadcast, even though, like keeping score, that's a bit of a lost tradition.

Dan H
10-15-2013, 09:53 PM
Paul Sullivan wrote a story about it, but didn't mention the horrible behavior of the fans? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.


I know. I am na´ve at times.

JB98
10-16-2013, 12:09 AM
One of the things that rarely gets discussed with regard to that whole eighth-inning meltdown is what a ****ty job Farnsworth did in relief of Prior.

Obviously, the Gonzalez error was the biggest gaffe, but the Cubs could have been out of the inning only down a run if Farnsworth could have retired the great Mike Mordecai. Instead, Mordecai cleared the bases with a two-out, three-double to take it from 4-3 to 7-3. That was the dagger in that game.

Dan H
10-16-2013, 04:11 AM
Watched the "documentary" 5 Outs. It was pure Cubbie B.S. and propaganda.

SoxandtheCityTee
10-16-2013, 09:59 AM
I didn't see it, but heard some interesting things on the radio about it:

1. Alou and Ramirez both bought their tickets home BEFORE game 7 was played.
2. Sosa was upset when he heard this. It wasn't clear to me when he found this out.
3. Kerry Wood was also dismayed to hear this and says it showed a lack of confidence in him.
4. Dusty defends all his managerial non-moves.

Any of this accurate? Based on the rage and anguish of the radio personalities talking about this, it can't have been all propaganda?

MarySwiss
10-16-2013, 02:01 PM
My husband grew up on Addison and Harlem, so he favored the Cubs, although he has always claimed he liked both teams. He refused to watch Game 7. I watched it in the living room while he watched the World Series of Poker in the family room. That's how sure he was that they were going to lose. He was sure they would lose in that playoff series with the Padres also.

But after the Cubs got eliminated by the D'Backs a few years back, they interviewed some kid who was about 13 years old. WIth tears running down his face, the kid kept saying that he'd been waiting "for soooo long." My husband looked at the TV, snarled, and yelled "Oh, shut up, kid." :D:

He now claims to be a Sox fan first and foremost, but I still wonder sometimes.

jdm2662
10-16-2013, 03:06 PM
I didn't see it, but heard some interesting things on the radio about it:

1. Alou and Ramirez both bought their tickets home BEFORE game 7 was played.

I always felt Alou was the biggest tool of the group, and he sure didn't disappoint. Alou was the one that bought the ticket and offered to his fellow country men, which leads to 2 and 3

2. Sosa was upset when he heard this. It wasn't clear to me when he found this out.

Yes, he was. He said the only plane ticket he wanted was one to NY.

3. Kerry Wood was also dismayed to hear this and says it showed a lack of confidence in him.

Yes, he said this. i'm not surprised. I always found Kerry Wood likable and I never doubted he wanted to win. He just couldn't stay on the field for long. I can't fault him for his stupid fan base making him out to what he wasn't.

4. Dusty defends all his managerial non-moves.

Well man, pitching Clement would not been fair to my bullpen dudes. Look how the like of Jack McKeon and Joe Torre handled their teams in the same situation.

Speaking of Beckett, Thom Breenaman spotted him at the bar after game 6. Beckett predicted the Cubs would score early, and he would enter the game in the third or fourth inning. He would give up one hit and pitch four innings... He should've bet money, then again, baseball doesn't like gambling.

Any of this accurate? Based on the rage and anguish of the radio personalities talking about this, it can't have been all propaganda?

The last 15 mins of the show was Cubbie loving propaganda. The rest of it I did enjoy. Obviously, it was fun to watch, and it had good perspectives...

Noneck
10-16-2013, 04:50 PM
But after the Cubs got eliminated by the D'Backs a few years back, they interviewed some kid who was about 13 years old. WIth tears running down his face, the kid kept saying that he'd been waiting "for soooo long." My husband looked at the TV, snarled, and yelled "Oh, shut up, kid." :D:



Its safe to say that there isnt one person alive that saw and remembers seeing the cubs win a world series.

TDog
10-16-2013, 05:45 PM
Its safe to say that there isnt one person alive that saw and remembers seeing the cubs win a world series.

Considering the game attendance the last time the Cubs ever won the World Series was the smallest of any World Series game ever played (6,210) and there was no television (or radio, for that matter), that has probably been true for quite a while.

RadioheadRocks
10-16-2013, 09:59 PM
Watched the "documentary" 5 Outs. It was pure Cubbie B.S. and propaganda.


Exactly, that's what their franchise thrives on. Proving my point that the Cubs are not Major League Baseball, they're a dog and pony show.

StillMissOzzie
10-17-2013, 02:34 AM
Speaking of Beckett, Thom Breenaman spotted him at the bar after game 6. Beckett predicted the Cubs would score early, and he would enter the game in the third or fourth inning. He would give up one hit and pitch four innings... He should've bet money, then again, baseball doesn't like gambling.

The last 15 mins of the show was Cubbie loving propaganda. The rest of it I did enjoy. Obviously, it was fun to watch, and it had good perspectives...

I found Brennaman's comments about his encounter with Beckett quite interesting. I wonder if he shared what he was told with anyone else back then, or brings it up only in hindsight today?

Steve Stone's comments were also intriguing. Game Day Steve Stone clearly made it sound like he thought Moises Alou could have caught the ball, while Current Day Steve Stone makes snide comments about the lack of gold gloves on the Alou mantle, and talks more like he doesn't think Alou could have caught that ball. Following the party line, Steve?

Another thing Current Day Stone said was that the Cubs still play mostly days games, so the players they should be after are for guys that aren't enjoying the nightlife too much. I wonder if he had anyone in particular in mind when he said that.

SMO
:gulp:

FielderJones
10-17-2013, 11:26 PM
I'm sure in two years, when there's a 10th anniversary of a Chicago team that actually won something, CSN will put up a comparable 90 minute special.

SoxandtheCityTee
10-18-2013, 01:28 AM
Jdm, thanks for the response. I see now that CSN is going to show this again, so I'm set to record it. Sounds like quite the laugher!

TommyJohn
10-18-2013, 06:54 AM
I'm sure in two years, when there's a 10th anniversary of a Chicago team that actually won something, CSN will put up a comparable 90 minute special.


"15 Games: How the 2005 White Sox Almost Blew It"

SOX ADDICT '73
10-18-2013, 08:20 AM
"15 games: How the 2005 white sox almost blew it"
potw

slavko
10-18-2013, 08:47 AM
Been seeing that play so much recently that I have come to think Alou would have made the catch. Bartman's hand was just a foot or so over his glove. The umpire had signaled by pointing that the ball was in the stands, but it "came back" into play because of side spin on the way down.

Certainly worthy of a 10 year anniversary celebration. Maybe it oughtta be a National Day of Mourning.

beasly213
10-18-2013, 10:14 AM
Been seeing that play so much recently that I have come to think Alou would have made the catch. Bartman's hand was just a foot or so over his glove. The umpire had signaled by pointing that the ball was in the stands, but it "came back" into play because of side spin on the way down.

Certainly worthy of a 10 year anniversary celebration. Maybe it oughtta be a National Day of Mourning.

The 30 for 30 ESPN did used digital technology to remove all of the fans out of the seats and it appeared that Alou would have caught the ball.

I still have my doubts that it was a for sure catch though. It could have hit off the heel of his glove, his glove could have bumped into some fans knocking the ball loose, or he could have closed his glove too early. It's a tough play and you can never assume the catch will be made.

Hitmen77
10-18-2013, 08:26 PM
I tried to search for the WSI thread from that game but couldn't find it.

RadioheadRocks
10-18-2013, 09:55 PM
I tried to search for the WSI thread from that game but couldn't find it.


Here you go:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25543

Smokey Burg
10-18-2013, 10:10 PM
I give Alou about a 1 in 5 chance that he could have made that catch. Those seats are higher than they look. If he made that catch, he should have been the new "thrill of victory".

slavko
10-18-2013, 11:26 PM
Here you go:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25543

It's a great thread. Time well wasted. Mark Giangreco takes a well-deserved pounding in it.

Hitmen77
10-18-2013, 11:32 PM
Here you go:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25543

Thanks! :tiphat:

RadioheadRocks
10-19-2013, 04:43 AM
My favorite was Kilroy's "this is better than sex" post. :D:

TommyJohn
10-19-2013, 09:02 AM
With all these Cubs fans wanting to tar and feather this fan, don't they sound like hypocrites since they are the same people who stereotyped us after the Ligue and Dybas incidents?



I liked this quote by Viva Magglio so much, I wanted to highlight it and bring attention to it all these years later, mainly because I occasionally still have to hear crap about the Ligues.

MarySwiss
10-19-2013, 11:37 AM
Here you go:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25543

Thanks. I wasn't around WSI in 2003, so I really enjoyed reading this thread. The only bad part is that I had managed to forget all about Tom Shaer, and this brought him back to my mind. But that's okay. :gulp:

waldo_the_wolf
10-19-2013, 04:08 PM
It's crazy how that gamethread was pretty much dead for about the first six or seven innings of that game (understandably so). After that, the thread exploded probably like no other gamethread ever.

Soxman219
10-19-2013, 04:35 PM
Do you guys have the Game 7 thread of the Marlins-Cubs?

tstrike2000
10-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Why do you have respect for that? He had a chance to set his family up for life monetarily...hell yeah I would have capitalized on that

Well, to each their own. I just respect that fact he's showing good character, and not risking public humiliation, his reputation to those who know him, or possibly his life, just to make a buck.

RadioheadRocks
10-19-2013, 10:09 PM
Do you guys have the Game 7 thread of the Marlins-Cubs?


Your wish is granted.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25604

tstrike2000
10-19-2013, 10:39 PM
Finally got around to watching "5 Outs" and I thought it was pretty well done. It's always interesting hearing each player's point of view, even Sammy. Both Prior and Wood are especially articulate. Like a couple of others have said, the last 10-15 minutes of it is just Cubbie fantasy garbage, but as a whole, it was good.

SOX ADDICT '73
10-19-2013, 11:19 PM
Finally got around to watching "5 Outs" and I thought it was pretty well done. It's always interesting hearing each player's point of view, even Sammy. Both Prior and Wood are especially articulate. Like a couple of others have said, the last 10-15 minutes of it is just Cubbie fantasy garbage, but as a whole, it was good.
It's funny to hear Cubs fans talk about how much bigger their hypothetical victory parade would be than our actual one.

slavko
10-20-2013, 08:49 AM
Your wish is granted.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25604

Skip through the game posts and get to the post-game stuff where some of us have knocked back a few celebratory Falstaffs and are expressing lust for some of the local TV newswomen. Hi-bleeping-larious.

I'm guessing a few of those posts would be deleted in today's more politically correct atmosphere. And Giangreco gets the beating of his life.

DSpivack
10-20-2013, 12:24 PM
Skip through the game posts and get to the post-game stuff where some of us have knocked back a few celebratory Falstaffs and are expressing lust for some of the local TV newswomen. Hi-bleeping-larious.

I'm guessing a few of those posts would be deleted in today's more politically correct atmosphere. And Giangreco gets the beating of his life.

Well, I'm glad some things don't change. :cool:

TDog
10-20-2013, 01:56 PM
It's funny to hear Cubs fans talk about how much bigger their hypothetical victory parade would be than our actual one.

Good point.

Hypothetical baseball has been the rage for years, and not just in Chicago, although it's most popular where the actual winning is least frequent. If there isn't a strike in 1994, maybe the White Sox really do hold off the surging Indians who were a game out when baseball shut down, and maybe the Sox go on to win the World Series. But 2005 greatly diminished the need for that fantasy line. And it probably is true that if the Bartman play doesn't happen and Alou catches the ball, the Cubs don't fall apart in the eighth and probably go to the World Series. Maybe they beat the Yankees and there is a huge parade.

The thing is, the reality of the White Sox parade surprised a lot of people. The first AP stories over the wire led with "more than 100,000." The first-lead write-through had "at least a few hundred thousand." I kept checking for updates, and the numbers kept getting bigger. What was special about the Sox parade wasn't simply the overwhelming number of people who came out for it, but the surprising, unexpected spontaneity of the turnout, especially after some high-profile Cubs fans were spreading both locally and nationally the line that not so many people cared about the White Sox winning the World Series. It's a Cubs city and 'burbs.

I think the specter of the 2005 parade looms still over the city and may well for decades to come. The spontaneity for future parades is pretty much gone. This is what the White Sox did. This is the standard. You pretty much have to support your champion at least as strongly as the city supported the 2005 team that some said so loudly nobody cared about. If the Cubs were to have won the World Series in 2008 or one of those years when people nationally were picking them to win, it probably would have been larger, if only because there would be an organized effort to assure the Cubs parade was bigger. I have no doubt that a hypothetical 2018 Cubs championship parade would be bigger than the 2005 White Sox parade, but I don't believe the 2003 parade would have been bigger than the parade the White Sox actually had after actually winning the World Series in 2005 because there wouldn't be any pressure to show up the White Sox.

It's also possible that I'm wrong and on the eve with everyone expecting the Cubs to draw a significantly larger parade crowd, just as there seemed no way the Cubs wouldn't be facing the Tigers in 1984, needing to win one of three against the expansion Padres or in 2003, needing to win one of three against the expansion Marlins, the crowd would disappoint, that, after all, being a Cubs tradition.

One advantage of hypothetical baseball is you don't have to go out and win to win.

DSpivack
10-20-2013, 02:06 PM
Good point.

Hypothetical baseball has been the rage for years, and not just in Chicago, although it's most popular where the actual winning is least frequent. If there isn't a strike in 1994, maybe the White Sox really do hold off the surging Indians who were a game out when baseball shut down, and maybe the Sox go on to win the World Series. But 2005 greatly diminished the need for that fantasy line. And it probably is true that if the Bartman play doesn't happen and Alou catches the ball, the Cubs don't fall apart in the eighth and probably go to the World Series. Maybe they beat the Yankees and there is a huge parade.

The thing is, the reality of the White Sox parade surprised a lot of people. The first AP stories over the wire led with "more than 100,000." The first-lead write-through had "at least a few hundred thousand." I kept checking for updates, and the numbers kept getting bigger. What was special about the Sox parade wasn't simply the overwhelming number of people who came out for it, but the surprising, unexpected spontaneity of the turnout, especially after some high-profile Cubs fans were spreading both locally and nationally the line that not so many people cared about the White Sox winning the World Series. It's a Cubs city and 'burbs.

I think the specter of the 2005 parade looms still over the city and may well for decades to come. The spontaneity for future parades is pretty much gone. This is what the White Sox did. This is the standard. You pretty much have to support your champion at least as strongly as the city supported the 2005 team that some said so loudly nobody cared about. If the Cubs were to have won the World Series in 2008 or one of those years when people nationally were picking them to win, it probably would have been larger, if only because there would be an organized effort to assure the Cubs parade was bigger. I have no doubt that a hypothetical 2018 Cubs championship parade would be bigger than the 2005 White Sox parade, but I don't believe the 2003 parade would have been bigger than the parade the White Sox actually had after actually winning the World Series in 2005 because there wouldn't be any pressure to show up the White Sox.

It's also possible that I'm wrong and on the eve with everyone expecting the Cubs to draw a significantly larger parade crowd, just as there seemed no way the Cubs wouldn't be facing the Tigers in 1984, needing to win one of three against the expansion Padres or in 2003, needing to win one of three against the expansion Marlins, the crowd would disappoint, that, after all, being a Cubs tradition.

One advantage of hypothetical baseball is you don't have to go out and win to win.

I think these are all interesting points.

Different titles are celebrated in different ways. IIRC, the Bulls held rallies in Grant Park 6 times. As you pointed out, the Sox had a rather spontaneous parade in 2005 (which I recall watching on mute from work at the time in my college library, I regret not going up to Chicago for the final game and/or parade). The 2010 Hawks had a somewhat similar parade and rally as the 2005 Sox (the parade route was different, but I think the celebration was in more or less the same place). With security concerns dating to the Boston Marathon, the 2013 parade was a very quick and short one downtown, culminating in a rally in Grant Park.

If the Sox somehow win another WS anytime soon (which is looking rather doubtful right now, but in 2002 who would have though the Sox would win a title so soon?), I wonder if a celebration won't look more like what the Hawks recently did, as opposed to the way they celebrated in 2005. I hope that's a problem we face soon...

TommyJohn
10-20-2013, 04:16 PM
Good point.

Hypothetical baseball has been the rage for years, and not just in Chicago, although it's most popular where the actual winning is least frequent. If there isn't a strike in 1994, maybe the White Sox really do hold off the surging Indians who were a game out when baseball shut down, and maybe the Sox go on to win the World Series. But 2005 greatly diminished the need for that fantasy line. And it probably is true that if the Bartman play doesn't happen and Alou catches the ball, the Cubs don't fall apart in the eighth and probably go to the World Series. Maybe they beat the Yankees and there is a huge parade.

The thing is, the reality of the White Sox parade surprised a lot of people. The first AP stories over the wire led with "more than 100,000." The first-lead write-through had "at least a few hundred thousand." I kept checking for updates, and the numbers kept getting bigger. What was special about the Sox parade wasn't simply the overwhelming number of people who came out for it, but the surprising, unexpected spontaneity of the turnout, especially after some high-profile Cubs fans were spreading both locally and nationally the line that not so many people cared about the White Sox winning the World Series. It's a Cubs city and 'burbs.

I think the specter of the 2005 parade looms still over the city and may well for decades to come. The spontaneity for future parades is pretty much gone. This is what the White Sox did. This is the standard. You pretty much have to support your champion at least as strongly as the city supported the 2005 team that some said so loudly nobody cared about. If the Cubs were to have won the World Series in 2008 or one of those years when people nationally were picking them to win, it probably would have been larger, if only because there would be an organized effort to assure the Cubs parade was bigger. I have no doubt that a hypothetical 2018 Cubs championship parade would be bigger than the 2005 White Sox parade, but I don't believe the 2003 parade would have been bigger than the parade the White Sox actually had after actually winning the World Series in 2005 because there wouldn't be any pressure to show up the White Sox.

It's also possible that I'm wrong and on the eve with everyone expecting the Cubs to draw a significantly larger parade crowd, just as there seemed no way the Cubs wouldn't be facing the Tigers in 1984, needing to win one of three against the expansion Padres or in 2003, needing to win one of three against the expansion Marlins, the crowd would disappoint, that, after all, being a Cubs tradition.

One advantage of hypothetical baseball is you don't have to go out and win to win.


Great points.

I am reminded of when the Blackhawks won in 2010 and about 2 million showed up at their rally, as opposed to the 1.75 million that showed up for the Sox in 2005. The line in some media was that more people showed up because more people cared about the Blackhawks. I found it ridiculous that some media folks were taking time out from basking in the glow of the Hawks win to bother having a big dick contest.

I must mention how I loved the way Dr. Crawdad used numbers to eviscerate the whole "more people card about the Blackhawks" line by showing that, while the Blackhawks Cup Finals were the highest rated Stanley Cup games in 36 years, they were still outrated locally and nationally by the 2005 World Series, which as we all know, was the lowest rated series up to that point in time. Dang-I searched for the thread but can't find it-I don't remember any specifics about it. Maybe it wasn't Crawdad, but it was someone who did their homework.

Hmmm. I also love the talk about how "the Cubs parade will be much, much bigger than the White Sox parade! It has to be! We have more fans!"

And we're the ones with the inferiority complex?

JB98
10-20-2013, 05:21 PM
Great points.

I am reminded of when the Blackhawks won in 2010 and about 2 million showed up at their rally, as opposed to the 1.75 million that showed up for the Sox in 2005. The line in some media was that more people showed up because more people cared about the Blackhawks. I found it ridiculous that some media folks were taking time out from basking in the glow of the Hawks win to bother having a big dick contest.

I must mention how I loved the way Dr. Crawdad used numbers to eviscerate the whole "more people card about the Blackhawks" line by showing that, while the Blackhawks Cup Finals were the highest rated Stanley Cup games in 36 years, they were still outrated locally and nationally by the 2005 World Series, which as we all know, was the lowest rated series up to that point in time. Dang-I searched for the thread but can't find it-I don't remember any specifics about it. Maybe it wasn't Crawdad, but it was someone who did their homework.

Hmmm. I also love the talk about how "the Cubs parade will be much, much bigger than the White Sox parade! It has to be! We have more fans!"

And we're the ones with the inferiority complex?

I'm a big Blackhawks fan, as well as a big White Sox fan, and I'm here to tell you the Sox parade was a bigger deal. The Sox parade was in October, when school was in session, while the Blackhawks parades have been in the summer time. The hockey parades were heavily attended by college kids using the occasion as an excuse to party. I don't see it as evidence that more people care about the Hawks than the Sox. It just means that school was out, and more people had the opportunity to attend.

And, again, I love the Blackhawks, but I don't think hockey trumps baseball. There are plenty of Cubbie faithful who are also Hawks fans, and we all know they do feel a need to have a big dick contest.

Soxman219
10-20-2013, 07:33 PM
Your wish is granted.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25604

Thank you kind sir

Bucky F. Dent
10-21-2013, 07:31 AM
Your wish is granted.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25604


That was a fun read!:)

Rocky Soprano
10-21-2013, 09:05 AM
That was a fun read!:)
Sure is!
One of my favorites:


F Darren Baker.

He'll be in jail in about 8 years.


:tongue:

SoxandtheCityTee
10-21-2013, 02:28 PM
Great stroll down memory lane. I was out of town and in transit when I saw that the Cubs were way up in the 8th, and resigned myself to the situation. A bit later as we got in the car I found out they'd lost, and then I couldn't wait to get to a TV to see the post-game coverage -- while laughing in wonderment, asking myself how did it happen?