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DumpJerry
10-06-2013, 10:08 PM
Then we would know De Aza's trade value (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/23002028-574/source-white-sox-will-make-push-for-free-agent-curtis-granderson.html).

KRS1
10-06-2013, 10:31 PM
I'd be down with that as long as it's a true short-term hometown discount for him to build on.

ZombieRob
10-06-2013, 11:46 PM
Get Choo in the mix then you have yourself an outfield. Viciedo can platoon 1b and DH

Frater Perdurabo
10-07-2013, 05:31 AM
Adding Granderson, Abreu, and a catcher would go a long way toward improving the team.

102605
10-07-2013, 08:01 AM
I'd be down with that as long as it's a true short-term hometown discount for him to build on.

He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.

Golden Sox
10-07-2013, 08:56 AM
In one of his books Bill Veeck said "that the future is now and five year plans usually lead to new five year plans". If the White Sox are going to sign Granderson, why not sign Robinson Cano. Jose Abreu and Brian McCann also. Adding these 4 players to the 2014 White Sox would put the team back in the Playoffs. According to the Sun Times article the White Sox have only $48 million committed to players for 2014. I've always been good at spending other peoples money so I'm all for signing these players.

CHISOXFAN13
10-07-2013, 09:07 AM
In one of his books Bill Veeck said "that the future is now and five year plans usually lead to new five year plans". If the White Sox are going to sign Granderson, why not sign Robinson Cano. Jose Abreu and Brian McCann also. Adding these 4 players to the 2014 White Sox would put the team back in the Playoffs. According to the Sun Times article the White Sox have only $48 million committed to players for 2014. I've always been good at spending other peoples money so I'm all for signing these players.

Cano wants 305 million. I don't think he'll get that, but he might get close.

No thanks.

ChiSoxFann
10-07-2013, 09:29 AM
I like Granderson, but it would have to be a hometown discount for me to feel good about it. He'll be 33 when the season starts and he's another high strikeout guy.

SephClone89
10-07-2013, 09:48 AM
In one of his books Bill Veeck said "that the future is now and five year plans usually lead to new five year plans". If the White Sox are going to sign Granderson, why not sign Robinson Cano. Jose Abreu and Brian McCann also. Adding these 4 players to the 2014 White Sox would put the team back in the Playoffs. According to the Sun Times article the White Sox have only $48 million committed to players for 2014. I've always been good at spending other peoples money so I'm all for signing these players.

The people who complain that the White Sox "don't act like a big market team" are the same people who complain about the large salaries owed to players like Jake Peavy and Adam Dunn. You can't have one without the other, people.

DumpJerry
10-07-2013, 10:24 AM
He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.
It's funny how $$ changes all that.

Bucky F. Dent
10-07-2013, 10:24 AM
I realize that people are not talking about replacing Granderson for Dunn straight up.....but:

In 214 AB, Granderson had 49 hits and struck out 69 times this year. That's a 32% strikeout rate. 2012 was about the same 195Ks in 596 ABs.

Our beloved Donkey struck out 189 times in 525 ABs with 115 hits this year for a 36% strikeout rate.

Can we do no better from our veteran left handed bat than a 4% improvement in strikeouts and a 12% increase in BA?

asindc
10-07-2013, 10:30 AM
He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.

Is that true?

Noneck
10-07-2013, 10:43 AM
He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.

I bet the peoria cub lover felt the same. Now look at him, how money and opportunity changes things.

Foulke You
10-07-2013, 11:17 AM
He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.
Not sure where you got this info. I can't find a single interview or comment online where Granderson commented on any ill will towards the White Sox. The closest thing I could find was an article where he claims that while growing up in Chicago, despite "saturation" of White Sox and Cubs, he never detested the Yankees. It sounds like he was a big Atlanta Braves guy.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/13/sports/la-sp-yankees-granderson-20101014

kittle42
10-07-2013, 11:36 AM
I bet the peoria cub lover felt the same. Now look at him, how money and opportunity changes things.

As it should for any professional.

thomas35forever
10-07-2013, 12:14 PM
I'd be all for it. We can see if he's recovered well enough from his injuries and if he does, well, Alejandro better watch his back.

Zisk77
10-07-2013, 12:33 PM
I bet the peoria cub lover felt the same. Now look at him, how money and opportunity changes things.
While Thome grew up loving the cubs, I doubt he hated the sox or anybody else. I'm not sure Jim is capable of hate.

Noneck
10-07-2013, 01:02 PM
As it should for any professional.

We all do what we have to do to thrive and survive. As long as its not immoral I see nothing wrong with it.

russ99
10-07-2013, 01:16 PM
Nice! Granderson and Morneau are the two FA's that IMO can help the Sox back to respectability.

kittle42
10-07-2013, 01:27 PM
Nice! Granderson and Morneau are the two FA's that IMO can help the Sox back to respectability.

Is this implied teal?

Noneck
10-07-2013, 01:57 PM
Nice! Granderson and Morneau are the two FA's that IMO can help the Sox back to respectability.

If gotten on the cheap and 1 year deals, then Id bite, otherwise pass.

samurai_sox
10-07-2013, 03:17 PM
I don't want him, I want Choo baby! :cool:

Chez
10-07-2013, 03:36 PM
I don't know. I love Granderson as a person and player, but if we're rebuilding then let's do it right. If we were on the verge of winning something, I'd love to have him. But realistically, if Granderson returns to form, he takes us from a 70 win team to a 72 win team. This would be a KW type pick-up.

cards press box
10-07-2013, 03:39 PM
Adding Granderson, Abreu, and a catcher would go a long way toward improving the team.

Yeah, it sure would. And Curtis Granderson can actually play CF while Shin Soo Choo, who is a fine hitter, is really a corner OF. Granderson could help the Sox for the next couple of years and give the Sox the chance to develop some of the OF's at the lower levels of the minors.

What if the Sox did these moves: (1) sign Granderson, (2) trade Alexei Ramirez to St. Louis for Matt Adams and (3) sign Brian McCann or Jarrod Saltalamacchia? The lineup would look like this:

Beckham 2B or Semien SS
Granderson CF
A. Garcia RF
M. Adams 1B
Viciedo LF
McCann/Saltalamacchia C
Dunn DH
Beckham 2B or Semien SS
Gillaspie 3B/Keppinger 3b (platoon)

Bench

DeAza OF
L. Garcia IF/OF
Phegley C
Jordan Danks OF

That may still need some work but would be a big improvement over the offense this year.

kittle42
10-07-2013, 03:52 PM
(2) trade Alexei Ramirez to St. Louis for Matt Adams

I just find it really hard to believe they would move him for Ramirez.

That lineup still kinda stinks, too.

cards press box
10-07-2013, 04:17 PM
I just find it really hard to believe they would move him for Ramirez.

That lineup still kinda stinks, too.

If the Pirates knock St. Louis out of the playoffs, then the Cardinals would have to look awfully hard at upgrading at shortstop. And, BTW, Pedro Alvarez just broke up Michael Wacha's no-hit bid with a solo homer in the bottom of the 8th of Game #4 to make the score 2-1 St. Louis.

kittle42
10-07-2013, 04:19 PM
If the Pirates knock St. Louis out of the playoffs, then the Cardinals would have to look awfully hard at upgrading at shortstop. And, BTW, Pedro Alvarez just broke up Michael Wacha's no-hit bid with a solo homer in the bottom of the 8th of Game #4 to make the score 2-1 St. Louis.

Wacha, Wacha, Wacha!

cards press box
10-07-2013, 04:42 PM
Wacha, Wacha, Wacha!

I know it is off topic but what a terrific pitcher Michael Wacha is! And it is still 2-1 Cardinals in the bottom of the 9th of Game #4, two outs and Neil Walker at 1st and Andrew McCutchan at the plate. Trevor Rosenthal pitching.

blandman
10-07-2013, 05:52 PM
If this is a clubhouse move for a quality guy to help the young players along in the first 2-3 years of a rebuilding process, I'm all for it.

If this is the delusional throw money at a terrible roster route to compete now, please no. No Grandersons, no Choos. They won't be relevant when we are again. You wanna spend money, go get Abreu.

kittle42
10-07-2013, 08:49 PM
If this is the delusional throw money at a terrible roster route to compete now, please no. No Grandersons, no Choos. They won't be relevant when we are again. You wanna spend money, go get Abreu.

But the Sox *love* the "being competitive" line of bull****.

getonbckthr
10-07-2013, 08:58 PM
With the Sox pitching if they can improve their defense and add some offense they really can contend.

CoopaLoop
10-07-2013, 10:56 PM
He will turn 33 in Spring Training next year. No thanks.

slavko
10-07-2013, 11:38 PM
Made $15M in 2013. Got any spare change?

JB98
10-08-2013, 12:11 AM
I'll be among the evil people that doesn't want Granderson at any price.

33 years old, coming off an injury-plagued season, struck out way too much even when he was healthy. Pass.

spawn
10-08-2013, 12:21 AM
He will turn 33 in Spring Training next year. No thanks.

I'll be among the evil people that doesn't want Granderson at any price.

33 years old, coming off an injury-plagued season, struck out way too much even when he was healthy. Pass.

Add me to this list as well.

Tragg
10-08-2013, 01:02 AM
Let's go pay big money for a declining veteran who has an OBP in free-fall. Sounds like a Williams move of this era.

kittle42
10-08-2013, 09:26 AM
Let's go pay big money for a declining veteran who has an OBP in free-fall. Sounds like a Williams move of this era.

It is *total* White Sox. New GM, same **** organizational philosophy. Perhaps I have another season of not caring at all coming my way. It did help my fantasy baseball teams - and my wallet.

doublem23
10-08-2013, 09:34 AM
I'll be among the evil people that doesn't want Granderson at any price.

33 years old, coming off an injury-plagued season, struck out way too much even when he was healthy. Pass.

I'll play Devil's Advocate and say that I would bring him in if he is reduced to a 2-year, maybe option for a third, style contract. The pendulum in baseball has swung so far toward developing and protecting one's own prospects that sometimes veteran players are undervalued.

I don't want the Sox to get in a bidding war with another team and ink him to a long-term deal, but maybe Curtis finds his prospects less enticing than expected and maybe he'd take a shorter deal at a HR-friendly, small OF (good for defense) park where he can reestablish himself as a big name bat and try to get one last nice contract before he calls it a career. It's not like there's this bevy of young OF talent waiting to crack the big leagues in our farm system, the best near ready OF prospect we have is Trayce Thompson who, in a perfect world, might be ready for a September call up in 2014.

The Sox have plenty of payroll to work with, if you can get something that's kind of team-friendly, that's low-risk, high-reward stuff... And who knows, maybe you can even flip him at the trade deadline in July for some more minor league material. I mean, really, do people want to spend a full season with De Aza, Danks, and Viciedo getting a heavy share of OF playing time? *Shudder*

doublem23
10-08-2013, 09:38 AM
Let's go pay big money for a declining veteran who has an OBP in free-fall. Sounds like a Williams move of this era.

Here's the list of potential FA outfielders from Cots:

Alfredo Amezaga, Rick Ankiel, Norichika Aoki, Jeff Baker, Jason Bay, Carlos Beltran, Shin-Soo Choo, Coco Crisp, Nelson Cruz, Rajai Davis, David Dejesus, Mark DeRosa, Matt Diaz, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jeff Francoeur, Curtis Granderson, Franklin Gutierrez, Tony Gwynn Jr., Corey Hart, Raul Ibanez, Reed Johnson, Austin Kearns, Jason Kubel, Nate McLouth, Nyjer Morgan, Mike Morse, David Murphy, Xavier Nady, Laynce Nix, Hunter Pence, Juan Rivera, Luke Scott, Ryan Sweeney, Andres Torres, Chris Young, Delmon Young

Not exactly a Murderer's Row. Unless, of course, you're good with Dayan Viciedo and Jordan Danks being 2 of our top 4 outfielders next year.

Jerko
10-08-2013, 09:41 AM
Sure, bring in the home-town guy when you expect to stink, just like they brought Robin in when they expected to stink. Another "feel-good" story to detract from the awfulness of the team. I still say the Sox were good early in Robin's first year just because of who wasn't there anymore.

Foulke You
10-08-2013, 10:08 AM
I'll play Devil's Advocate and say that I would bring him in if he is reduced to a 2-year, maybe option for a third, style contract. The pendulum in baseball has swung so far toward developing and protecting one's own prospects that sometimes veteran players are undervalued.

I don't want the Sox to get in a bidding war with another team and ink him to a long-term deal, but maybe Curtis finds his prospects less enticing than expected and maybe he'd take a shorter deal at a HR-friendly, small OF (good for defense) park where he can reestablish himself as a big name bat and try to get one last nice contract before he calls it a career. It's not like there's this bevy of young OF talent waiting to crack the big leagues in our farm system, the best near ready OF prospect we have is Trayce Thompson who, in a perfect world, might be ready for a September call up in 2014.

The Sox have plenty of payroll to work with, if you can get something that's kind of team-friendly, that's low-risk, high-reward stuff... And who knows, maybe you can even flip him at the trade deadline in July for some more minor league material. I mean, really, do people want to spend a full season with De Aza, Danks, and Viciedo getting a heavy share of OF playing time? *Shudder*
This is how I feel as well. Granderson could be one of the few bargains out there if he is trying to re-establish to teams that he is indeed healthy and can still be productive. If the Sox sign him to a short term deal that doesn't have a no-trade clause, I'd be for this signing. Anything to not have to watch Viciedo get another 500 ABs next year.

DSpivack
10-08-2013, 10:30 AM
Here's the list of potential FA outfielders from Cots:

Alfredo Amezaga, Rick Ankiel, Norichika Aoki, Jeff Baker, Jason Bay, Carlos Beltran, Shin-Soo Choo, Coco Crisp, Nelson Cruz, Rajai Davis, David Dejesus, Mark DeRosa, Matt Diaz, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jeff Francoeur, Curtis Granderson, Franklin Gutierrez, Tony Gwynn Jr., Corey Hart, Raul Ibanez, Reed Johnson, Austin Kearns, Jason Kubel, Nate McLouth, Nyjer Morgan, Mike Morse, David Murphy, Xavier Nady, Laynce Nix, Hunter Pence, Juan Rivera, Luke Scott, Ryan Sweeney, Andres Torres, Chris Young, Delmon Young

Not exactly a Murderer's Row. Unless, of course, you're good with Dayan Viciedo and Jordan Danks being 2 of our top 4 outfielders next year.

FWIW, Aoki is not a FA. Brewers hold a $1.5 million option on him for 2014 that they'll obviously pick up.

Also, the Giants gave Hunter Pence a big extension.

doublem23
10-08-2013, 10:38 AM
FWIW, Aoki is not a FA. Brewers hold a $1.5 million option on him for 2014 that they'll obviously pick up.

Also, the Giants gave Hunter Pence a big extension.

Yes, I don't know when that was updated, but some of them are players with potential options... I took the asterisks out when I formatted the list to make it a little more readable...

Here's the source of my info: Not sure when it was last updated:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/potential-free-agents-for-2014/

Pence and Aoki were two of the better names on that list, too, so it degrades the value out there even more.

eriqjaffe
10-08-2013, 11:17 AM
I think you guys are all overlooking the fact that the Sox can get Ryan Sweeney back!Oh, wait, scratch that.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/cubs-sign-ryan-sweeney-to-two-year-deal.html

Moses_Scurry
10-08-2013, 12:05 PM
I'll play Devil's Advocate and say that I would bring him in if he is reduced to a 2-year, maybe option for a third, style contract. The pendulum in baseball has swung so far toward developing and protecting one's own prospects that sometimes veteran players are undervalued.

I don't want the Sox to get in a bidding war with another team and ink him to a long-term deal, but maybe Curtis finds his prospects less enticing than expected and maybe he'd take a shorter deal at a HR-friendly, small OF (good for defense) park where he can reestablish himself as a big name bat and try to get one last nice contract before he calls it a career. It's not like there's this bevy of young OF talent waiting to crack the big leagues in our farm system, the best near ready OF prospect we have is Trayce Thompson who, in a perfect world, might be ready for a September call up in 2014.

The Sox have plenty of payroll to work with, if you can get something that's kind of team-friendly, that's low-risk, high-reward stuff... And who knows, maybe you can even flip him at the trade deadline in July for some more minor league material. I mean, really, do people want to spend a full season with De Aza, Danks, and Viciedo getting a heavy share of OF playing time? *Shudder*

Could be the 2014 version of Jermaine Dye. I'd be on board with a very team friendly deal.

Soxman219
10-08-2013, 12:45 PM
He is from Chicago but had grown up hating the White Sox.

Not true, he said he wished he played for the White Sox before he retired, at least that's what he told me when I got his autograph in 2008.

PaleHoser
10-08-2013, 03:36 PM
I wouldn't chase Granderson until I checked whether Atlanta would be willing to eat some salary and move B.J. Upton. They still owe him a boatload of money and he's riding the bench.

doublem23
10-08-2013, 03:40 PM
I wouldn't chase Granderson until I checked whether Atlanta would be willing to eat some salary and move B.J. Upton. They still owe him a boatload of money and he's riding the bench.

I personally don't want the Sox to start dipping into their very mediocre farm system to acquire stopgap players. Upton's been on a downslide for a while and was absolutely horrific last year (we're talking Adam Dunn bad).

If we're going to add lousy veterans to make the team palatable while the farm system rebuilds, may as well just do it through FA.

kittle42
10-08-2013, 03:50 PM
Granderson! Upton! More low OBP guys who K a ton. Go, Sox!

doublem23
10-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Granderson! Upton! More low OBP guys who K a ton. Go, Sox!

Isn't Granderson's career OBP something around .340?

DSpivack
10-08-2013, 04:06 PM
Isn't Granderson's career OBP something around .340?

That it is, but in only one of the last 5 seasons has it been above .330.

Vernam
10-08-2013, 04:12 PM
Curtis might have some gas left in the tank, but why do we always have to get stars past their prime instead of young studs? In other words, we should be trying to get Curtis Great-Granderson. :duck:

GoSox2K3
10-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Granderson! Upton! More low OBP guys who K a ton. Go, Sox!

...and let's not forget a couple of guys on the downward side of their career. Granderson will be 33 on opening day.

tstrike2000
10-08-2013, 11:22 PM
Do not want Dunn 2: Electric Boogaloo.

harwar
10-09-2013, 08:59 AM
Yea, maybe a few years ago, but not now .. at his age, he's probably just entering that long downhill slide that will result in more strikeouts, slower bat, defense starts to suffer, and so forth..

kittle42
10-09-2013, 09:40 AM
The Sox have a chance to go through some rebuilding that fans will probably take in the short term. Please do not go back to the half-assed "competing" plan.

doublem23
10-09-2013, 10:51 AM
The Sox have a chance to go through some rebuilding that fans will probably take in the short term. Please do not go back to the half-assed "competing" plan.

I disagree, the Sox have the pitching to compete today. Right now. You don't need to build a 95-win juggernaut to get to the postseason, you just need to build a good enough team to claim one of the 5 playoff berths. 1/3 of the league gets to go to the playoffs now.

Second, I don't think people have the appetite for a long rebuilding process. Rarely do these teardowns and rebuilds only take a couple of years. And the Cubs have proven how impatient people get with this, they're surviving alone on the draw of Wrigley Field.

The Sox have more than enough resources to build both a competitive Major League team while adding talent to the farm system.

Domeshot17
10-09-2013, 10:59 AM
I disagree, the Sox have the pitching to compete today. Right now. You don't need to build a 95-win juggernaut to get to the postseason, you just need to build a good enough team to claim one of the 5 playoff berths. 1/3 of the league gets to go to the playoffs now.

Second, I don't think people have the appetite for a long rebuilding process. Rarely do these teardowns and rebuilds only take a couple of years. And the Cubs have proven how impatient people get with this, they're surviving alone on the draw of Wrigley Field.

The Sox have more than enough resources to build both a competitive Major League team while adding talent to the farm system.

Maybe they have enough pitching. I agreed with Peavy, without, they are just average. I would rather build a team that has a chance to actually win and do damage vs. the same old same old of 82 win teams that maybe get hot, win 86-87 games, sneak in, and get swept. That is not a very successful season to me.

Moses_Scurry
10-09-2013, 11:39 AM
The Sox have a chance to go through some rebuilding that fans will probably take in the short term. Please do not go back to the half-assed "competing" plan.

I don't see why signing Granderson to a team-friendly deal would have to interfere with the rebuild. I don't think anyone here wants them to sign him to a long-term contract. Hell, if he has a good enough year, and the Sox are out of contention they can trade him for more prospects to maybe accelerate the rebuild.

blandman
10-09-2013, 11:49 AM
Maybe they have enough pitching. I agreed with Peavy, without, they are just average. I would rather build a team that has a chance to actually win and do damage vs. the same old same old of 82 win teams that maybe get hot, win 86-87 games, sneak in, and get swept. That is not a very successful season to me.

Well, having Chris Sale can probably avoid a sweep with a middling team, but in general yes. Especially when you consider most playoff juggernauts have multiple guys that have a better than average chance to shut down elite offenses, as well as the elite offenses to boot.

doublem23
10-09-2013, 12:22 PM
Maybe they have enough pitching. I agreed with Peavy, without, they are just average. I would rather build a team that has a chance to actually win and do damage vs. the same old same old of 82 win teams that maybe get hot, win 86-87 games, sneak in, and get swept. That is not a very successful season to me.

If Peavy were still on the Sox, going into the 2014 season he would, at best be the #3 starter on the Sox and very possibly could be the #5 starter by season's end. He's not relevant to the make-up of the pitching staff which was very good most of this season.

I agree, I'd love to build a 95-game winner, too, but I don't think you need to lose 100 games for a decade to do it. Plenty of other teams have shown it is more than possible to juggle success at the MLB level with success in growing one's own farm.

All that being said, I'd much rather build a team that can certainly win 85-ish games, hope for a few lucky bounces here and there, and be realistic contenders for much of the season instead of watching another year of 100-loss baseball. That's for damn sure.

I don't see why signing Granderson to a team-friendly deal would have to interfere with the rebuild. I don't think anyone here wants them to sign him to a long-term contract. Hell, if he has a good enough year, and the Sox are out of contention they can trade him for more prospects to maybe accelerate the rebuild.

Yeah, exactly, nobody wants Granderson at all costs, but if you're telling me you wouldn't take him for a short contract that doesn't have an NTC and isn't financially crippling, why not? The Sox don't have any blue chip OF prospects other than Garcia ready for the Majors. After him it's all Viciedo, De Aza, and Danks... Ugh. These guys suck.

Domeshot17
10-09-2013, 12:54 PM
If Peavy were still on the Sox, going into the 2014 season he would, at best be the #3 starter on the Sox and very possibly could be the #5 starter by season's end. He's not relevant to the make-up of the pitching staff which was very good most of this season.

I agree, I'd love to build a 95-game winner, too, but I don't think you need to lose 100 games for a decade to do it. Plenty of other teams have shown it is more than possible to juggle success at the MLB level with success in growing one's own farm.

All that being said, I'd much rather build a team that can certainly win 85-ish games, hope for a few lucky bounces here and there, and be realistic contenders for much of the season instead of watching another year of 100-loss baseball. That's for damn sure.



Yeah, exactly, nobody wants Granderson at all costs, but if you're telling me you wouldn't take him for a short contract that doesn't have an NTC and isn't financially crippling, why not? The Sox don't have any blue chip OF prospects other than Garcia ready for the Majors. After him it's all Viciedo, De Aza, and Danks... Ugh. These guys suck.

Maybe on Jake, I still think he slots into the 2-3.

I love Sale, and Quintana showed a lot of growth this year. In a perfect world we go into the season with him as a 3. I don't know about Danks's health but I feel ok with him as a 4. I like Johnson in the 5. Santiago as the swing man is fine. He really ran out of gas late, and does not always show the ability to pitch deep into games. But he has value in the pen.

I think the rotation could use a solid/strong 2, but it is not a need. But with that rotation, it won't matter if we have a bottom 3 or 4 offense and defense.

I admit I judge success and failure harshly, very harsly, but honestly I would rather endure a year like this that leads to change vs. a year where we hover .500 and never get past 3rd place. Baseball hell and Baseball purgatory are not much different to me.

blandman
10-09-2013, 01:10 PM
If Peavy were still on the Sox, going into the 2014 season he would, at best be the #3 starter on the Sox and very possibly could be the #5 starter by season's end. He's not relevant to the make-up of the pitching staff which was very good most of this season.


This is a common misconception with teams that start young pitchers who are very good early. The way Santiago ended is way more indicative of his skill set. His second half era was more than half a run higher than the first half, his k:bb ratio was cut in half, and he allowed a .272/.371/.427 line. Making matters worse, he got progressively worse every month of the second half. It's pretty apparent the league caught up to him (which shouldn't be a surprise considering his success is built around a trick pitch players haven't seen in years).

Not to mention - a large part of our staff being good most of the year was Peavy's numbers... and Dylan Axelrod, who is complete garbage time now. And I don't know what's possessing you to assume that Peavy would be moved below Danks in the rotation.

Sale and Quintana are really it for guys that had full, good years that we can feel relatively safe counting on. Peavy would have made three. And almost everything I've read assumes Quintana is being shopped. So while the staff on a whole had a good year last year, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that's not going to repeat without adding pitching to the roster.

doublem23
10-09-2013, 01:40 PM
This is a common misconception with teams that start young pitchers who are very good early. The way Santiago ended is way more indicative of his skill set. His second half era was more than half a run higher than the first half, his k:bb ratio was cut in half, and he allowed a .272/.371/.427 line. Making matters worse, he got progressively worse every month of the second half. It's pretty apparent the league caught up to him (which shouldn't be a surprise considering his success is built around a trick pitch players haven't seen in years).

Not to mention - a large part of our staff being good most of the year was Peavy's numbers... and Dylan Axelrod, who is complete garbage time now. And I don't know what's possessing you to assume that Peavy would be moved below Danks in the rotation.

Sale and Quintana are really it for guys that had full, good years that we can feel relatively safe counting on. Peavy would have made three. And almost everything I've read assumes Quintana is being shopped. So while the staff on a whole had a good year last year, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that's not going to repeat without adding pitching to the roster.

I'm not even considering Santiago part of the rotation next year, but a good point, I guess it is only fair to point out that the other side of the coin is that Peavy could probably be as high as our #2 starter next year if every possible thing goes wrong.

Huisj
10-09-2013, 01:55 PM
It's pretty apparent the league caught up to him (which shouldn't be a surprise considering his success is built around a trick pitch players haven't seen in years).



According the pitch data, he threw a whopping 112 screwballs this year. That's one every 5 or 6 batters. I suppose it's possible that some of those got classified as changeups since it basically does look like an extreme circle change. Even if you count every changeup he threw as a screwball (which probably isn't accurate), it's still 1 every two batters faced.

I think his struggles later in the year are as much to do with running out of gas (not surprising for a guy who wasn't a starter earlier and had never thrown that many innings before in a season) as with the league figuring him out. His control got worse and he seemed to always be behind in the count, and he got hit harder as a result. You know who had a similar late-season problem the year before? Quintana and Sale. Guess we should have written them off too.

I'm not ready to give up on him yet like so many around here are.

doublem23
10-09-2013, 01:58 PM
I think his struggles later in the year are as much to do with running out of gas (not surprising for a guy who wasn't a starter earlier and had never thrown that many innings before in a season) as with the league figuring him out. His control got worse and he seemed to always be behind in the count, and he got hit harder as a result. You know who had a similar late-season problem the year before? Quintana and Sale. Guess we should have written them off too.


Santiago's never been as good as Sale or Quintana, though, at least not over any real length of time.

kittle42
10-09-2013, 02:36 PM
I disagree, the Sox have the pitching to compete today. Right now. You don't need to build a 95-win juggernaut to get to the postseason, you just need to build a good enough team to claim one of the 5 playoff berths. 1/3 of the league gets to go to the playoffs now.

This year, that required 92 wins. Good luck, Sox.

kittle42
10-09-2013, 02:37 PM
This is a common misconception with teams that start young pitchers who are very good early. The way Santiago ended is way more indicative of his skill set. His second half era was more than half a run higher than the first half, his k:bb ratio was cut in half, and he allowed a .272/.371/.427 line. Making matters worse, he got progressively worse every month of the second half. It's pretty apparent the league caught up to him (which shouldn't be a surprise considering his success is built around a trick pitch players haven't seen in years).

Not to mention - a large part of our staff being good most of the year was Peavy's numbers... and Dylan Axelrod, who is complete garbage time now. And I don't know what's possessing you to assume that Peavy would be moved below Danks in the rotation.

Sale and Quintana are really it for guys that had full, good years that we can feel relatively safe counting on. Peavy would have made three. And almost everything I've read assumes Quintana is being shopped. So while the staff on a whole had a good year last year, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that's not going to repeat without adding pitching to the roster.

Ah, but Quintana had a crap second half last year, so as to him, your hypothesis does not apply.

blandman
10-09-2013, 02:57 PM
I'm not even considering Santiago part of the rotation next year, but a good point, I guess it is only fair to point out that the other side of the coin is that Peavy could probably be as high as our #2 starter next year if every possible thing goes wrong.

Which there's plenty of precedent for recently. :(:

There's a lot of young guys to look at, so it's a blessing we're not likely to compete this year. And if there's low cost veterans filling needs in the meantime (like Granderson) and some of the young low ceiling pitchers have Santiago/Axelrod years, it's not impossible we could end up with that 82 win team anyway.

According the pitch data, he threw a whopping 112 screwballs this year. That's one every 5 or 6 batters. I suppose it's possible that some of those got classified as changeups since it basically does look like an extreme circle change. Even if you count every changeup he threw as a screwball (which probably isn't accurate), it's still 1 every two batters faced.

I think his struggles later in the year are as much to do with running out of gas (not surprising for a guy who wasn't a starter earlier and had never thrown that many innings before in a season) as with the league figuring him out. His control got worse and he seemed to always be behind in the count, and he got hit harder as a result. You know who had a similar late-season problem the year before? Quintana and Sale. Guess we should have written them off too.

I'm not ready to give up on him yet like so many around here are.

He throws a change that he developed because the screwball wasn't enough. His problem wasn't running out of gas. He didn't lose velocity and his location didn't suffer. His problem was his out of zone pitches for swing and misses went down significantly (the general rule on this is that the league adjusted). Not only did he stop getting swings and misses off his breaking stuff, but now they're balls. Without developing another solid offering, I don't think there's any chance he works out as a starter.

blandman
10-09-2013, 03:22 PM
Ah, but Quintana had a crap second half last year, so as to him, your hypothesis does not apply.

I don't think Quintana's as good as he's pitched. I think the White Sox agree (which is why they're trying to sell high).

ZombieRob
10-09-2013, 03:46 PM
I don't think Quintana's as good as he's pitched. I think the White Sox agree (which is why they're trying to sell high).
I would of agreed with you the 1st year he pitched for us, but not the second. I don't think he's a fluke and he has the biggest nads on this pitching staff when it comes to gutsy pitching.

blandman
10-09-2013, 04:24 PM
I would of agreed with you the 1st year he pitched for us, but not the second. I don't think he's a fluke and he has the biggest nads on this pitching staff when it comes to gutsy pitching.

I'm just not enthralled with guys with below average stuff that rely on a combination of location and deception to be effective. Sure, some guys, like Bruce Chen, make a career out of it with only a few bad years. But the vast majority of those guys don't last half a decade.

ZombieRob
10-09-2013, 05:30 PM
I'm just not enthralled with guys with below average stuff that rely on a combination of location and deception to be effective. Sure, some guys, like Bruce Chen, make a career out of it with only a few bad years. But the vast majority of those guys don't last half a decade.
There's a TON of soft tossing lefties who have been effective. And he still throws around 90.

blandman
10-09-2013, 06:23 PM
There's a TON of soft tossing lefties who have been effective. And he still throws around 90.

Not many of them are elite though, or terribly consistent. It's not what I'd spend money on if I were building as staff. Pre-arbitration is fine, but once again I think the White Sox are on the same page which is why they're shopping him.

kittle42
10-10-2013, 12:36 AM
I would of agreed with you

I know, I know, you guys hate me for this, but it is my biggest, biggest pet peeve of all of grammar mistakes:

WOULD OF and COULD OF are *never* correct. It is WOULD HAVE or COULD HAVE, also properly shortened as WOULD'VE or COULD'VE.

I don't care what they "sound like."

doublem23
10-10-2013, 06:08 AM
There's a TON of soft tossing lefties who have been effective. And he still throws around 90.

Quintana works in the 94-95 range, he's not just a soft tossing lefty who depends on deception.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2013, 09:26 AM
Quintana works in the 94-95 range, he's not just a soft tossing lefty who depends on deception.
The people that think Quintana is a soft tosser aren't watching the games. There's no other explanation. If anything, he's a power pitcher.

blandman
10-10-2013, 09:47 AM
Quintana works in the 94-95 range, he's not just a soft tossing lefty who depends on deception.

Claiming he throws his four seamer at 95 is no different than if I claimed he threw at 86 (because he threw it that slow just as often). His average velocity on that pitch was 91, and he almost never dialed it up to 95 because he can't keep his control on that pitch, which is important because he gets no movement on it. He threw it at 91-92 almost every game of the season, and relied way more on his breaking stuff.

The people that think Quintana is a soft tosser aren't watching the games. There's no other explanation. If anything, he's a power pitcher.

The only way you could think he's a fire-baller is if you watched one or two pitches a game, at most. There's no other explanation.

doublem23
10-10-2013, 09:53 AM
Claiming he throws his four seamer at 95 is no different than if I claimed he threw at 86 (because he threw it that slow just as often). His average velocity on that pitch was 91, and he almost never dialed it up to 95 because he can't keep his control on that pitch, which is important because he gets no movement on it. He threw it at 91-92 almost every game of the season, and relied way more on his breaking stuff.

You're right, I was a little generous with his velocity, but between his two-seamer and four-seamer, he still threw about 60% fastballs in 2013 and worked an average 91-92 MPH on them (a 1-2.5 MPH improvement over 2012). I still think he pitches with more power than a lot of people give him credit for.

blandman
10-10-2013, 09:55 AM
You're right, I was a little generous with his velocity, but between his two-seamer and four-seamer, he still threw about 60% fastballs in 2013 and worked an average 91-92 MPH on them (a 1-2.5 MPH improvement over 2012). I still think he pitches with more power than a lot of people give him credit for.

I definitely give him credit for the improvement in velocity, without it he would not be able to sustain his success from last year. I'm not sure he'll keep it though, especially as he gets older. Which is why I'm on the "trade him while he's got value" train.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2013, 10:00 AM
Claiming he throws his four seamer at 95 is no different than if I claimed he threw at 86 (because he threw it that slow just as often). His average velocity on that pitch was 91, and he almost never dialed it up to 95 because he can't keep his control on that pitch, which is important because he gets no movement on it. He threw it at 91-92 almost every game of the season, and relied way more on his breaking stuff.



The only way you could think he's a fire-baller is if you watched one or two pitches a game, at most. There's no other explanation.

I never said he was a fire baller.

The trends say he will maintain his velocity for a while. He's actually gained velocity every month he's been in the major leagues.

EMachine10
10-10-2013, 10:53 AM
I've certainly seen him dial it up to 94 to put away a hitter on a well placed fastball. He usually sits 91-93.

mzh
10-10-2013, 06:20 PM
91-93 from a lefty is a lot different than 91-93 for a righty.

As meaningless of a stat as it is, I think people would be buying into this kid a lot more if he had won 16 games, like he should have. It may be completely psychological, but I think it has merit.

mzh
10-10-2013, 06:25 PM
Actually, I'm going to put an end to this right now. Quintana, averaging 91.2 MPH, tied for the 10th hardest fastball among all lefty starters in Major League Baseball last year. He ain't a soft tosser.

blandman
10-10-2013, 07:31 PM
Actually, I'm going to put an end to this right now. Quintana, averaging 91.2 MPH, tied for the 10th hardest fastball among all lefty starters in Major League Baseball last year. He ain't a soft tosser.

Worst generalization ever. So because there aren't many fireballing lefthanders in baseball, 91.2 is a fireballer?

Sorry Randy Johnson, Aroldis Chapman, and, well, anyone who's ever thrown consistently between 95-100. Make way for all 91 miles per hour of Jose Quintana. Simply because there's not more of you.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2013, 09:09 PM
Worst generalization ever. So because there aren't many fireballing lefthanders in baseball, 91.2 is a fireballer?

Sorry Randy Johnson, Aroldis Chapman, and, well, anyone who's ever thrown consistently between 95-100. Make way for all 91 miles per hour of Jose Quintana. Simply because there's not more of you.

You don't know the difference between a fire baller and a power pitcher.

When a LH can hit 95, yeah, he throws hard.

blandman
10-10-2013, 09:25 PM
You don't know the difference between a fire baller and a power pitcher.

When a LH can hit 95, yeah, he throws hard.

I know enough to know that when a guy consistently hits 91, guys at the plate don't consider him either of those things. He's not throwing hard, and his fastball's not fast enough to throw for 90% of his pitches. So yeah, neither.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2013, 10:08 PM
I know enough to know that when a guy consistently hits 91, guys at the plate don't consider him either of those things. He's not throwing hard, and his fastball's not fast enough to throw for 90% of his pitches. So yeah, neither.

And he keeps attacking hitters with that fastball and getting guys out. 336 innings of 3.6 era and 7.4 k/9 with average secondary pitches. He has the entire AL fooled I guess. Thank god Munch is on the case.

blandman
10-10-2013, 10:24 PM
And he keeps attacking hitters with that fastball and getting guys out. 336 innings of 3.6 era and 7.4 k/9 with average secondary pitches. He has the entire AL fooled I guess. Thank god Munch is on the case.

You're abandoning logic for numbers at face value without any analysis. And you're attaching names to what he's doing that have definitions that don't match up. He's not a power pitcher. Look it up. The prototype is Nolan Ryan. That's insulting to insinuate. And he's not a fireballer. Look the definition up. He's not all high speed fastballs. It's been brought up in the thread he throws fastballs (THREE KINDS, varying in velcoity from as low as 83 on the cutter) at a league average rate, especially when you consider he uses two of them as off-speed offerings and not fastballs at all. You can't count them all as fastballs when his change is faster. :rolleyes: Well, you can, but that's why I don't have a problem saying you're way off base. Dudes a deception artist, with multiple pitches and a hidden delivery.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2013, 10:31 PM
You're abandoning logic for numbers at face value without any analysis. And you're attaching names to what he's doing that have definitions that don't match up. He's not a power pitcher. Look it up. The prototype is Nolan Ryan. That's insulting to insinuate. And he's not a fireballer. Look the definition up. He's not all high speed fastballs. It's been brought up in the thread he throws fastballs (THREE KINDS, varying in velcoity from as low as 83 on the cutter) at a league average rate, especially when you consider he uses two of them as off-speed offerings and not fastballs at all. You can't count them all as fastballs when his change is faster. :rolleyes: Well, you can, but that's why I don't have a problem saying you're way off base. Dudes a deception artist, with multiple pitches and a hidden delivery.

Roll your eyes all you want. The kid throws a 95 mph 4 seamer. He attacks the zone. He doesn't rely on off speed pitches. He pitches to contact, yet still gets k's at a solid rate. Batters hit .237 off that fastball. That's a power pitcher. Sorry.

blandman
10-10-2013, 11:17 PM
Roll your eyes all you want. The kid throws a 95 mph 4 seamer. He attacks the zone. He doesn't rely on off speed pitches. He pitches to contact, yet still gets k's at a solid rate. Batters hit .237 off that fastball. That's a power pitcher. Sorry.

He doesn't throw a 95 mph 4 seamer. He throws it at 91-92 almost exclusively, and has hit 95 on extremely rare occassion. By your logic, Aroldis Chapman has a 105 mph 4 seamer because he's hit it a few times. Nevermind that 99% of his fastballs never touch close to that.

Foulke You
10-11-2013, 10:27 AM
I know enough to know that when a guy consistently hits 91, guys at the plate don't consider him either of those things. He's not throwing hard, and his fastball's not fast enough to throw for 90% of his pitches. So yeah, neither.
Late this season, Konerko made it a point to tell reporters about the "rave reviews" he was getting at 1B from opposing hitters regarding Quintana. They talked about how he doesn't show the hitters anything and keeps them guessing, in addition to his great stuff. Regardless of velocity, the most telling quote for me is that the hitters were telling Konerko that he "doesn't show anything". This means that Jose is learning how to pitch. If Quintana has learned to make every pitch look similar coming out of his hand to the opposing batter, then he is a very dangerous pitcher regardless of whether he is throwing 94 or 91 mph. Here is a link to the article that has the Konerko quiote:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-18/sports/ct-spt-0918-white-sox-twins-chicago-20130918_1_dayan-viciedo-jose-quintana-de-aza

blandman
10-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Late this season, Konerko made it a point to tell reporters about the "rave reviews" he was getting at 1B from opposing hitters regarding Quintana. They talked about how he doesn't show the hitters anything and keeps them guessing, in addition to his great stuff. Regardless of velocity, the most telling quote for me is that the hitters were telling Konerko that he "doesn't show anything". This means that Jose is learning how to pitch. If Quintana has learned to make every pitch look similar coming out of his hand to the opposing batter, then he is a very dangerous pitcher regardless of whether he is throwing 94 or 91 mph. Here is a link to the article that has the Konerko quiote:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-18/sports/ct-spt-0918-white-sox-twins-chicago-20130918_1_dayan-viciedo-jose-quintana-de-aza

He's talking about his deception. As I mentioned before, I'm not enthralled with guys that get by because of a bunch of pitches and smoke and mirrors. Yeah, some guys turn it into a great career. In most cases, those guys don't last half a decade.

doublem23
10-11-2013, 10:49 AM
He's talking about his deception. As I mentioned before, I'm not enthralled with guys that get by because of a bunch of pitches and smoke and mirrors. Yeah, some guys turn it into a great career. In most cases, those guys don't last half a decade.

All pitchers pitch with deception. As has been noted, only a handful of lefties throw harder than Quintana. I don't think the guy is a flameballing power arm, but I think people who still call him a smoke and mirrors, crafty lefty didn't watch him pitch at all this season.

DumpJerry
10-11-2013, 10:51 AM
All pitchers pitch with deception. As has been noted, only a handful of lefties throw harder than Quintana. I don't think the guy is a flameballing power arm, but I think people who still call him a smoke and mirrors, crafty lefty didn't watch him pitch at all this season.
If he ain't Sandy Koufax, he's a Slow Pitch Softball player. Got it?

blandman
10-11-2013, 11:05 AM
All pitchers pitch with deception. As has been noted, only a handful of lefties throw harder than Quintana. I don't think the guy is a flameballing power arm, but I think people who still call him a smoke and mirrors, crafty lefty didn't watch him pitch at all this season.

I think the problem is it's really understated the part that his deception causes players at the plate because he doesn't have a funky Hideo Nomo-like motion. But he's probably one of the best in the game at it. Take it away from him and on the surface he isn't doing anything special. And no, I don't agree that simply because he sits at 91 usually he isn't relying heavily on craft over substance. The guy has six regular pitches, three kinds of fastballs, and no single pitch that would rate a "plus" scout grade. Simply because there's a dearth of quality lefties in the league doesn't mean he's not getting by with deception and a mix of pitches more than anything else. Like I said, none of that makes him "bad" per se, just riskier than what you'd think looking at his numbers. Which is exactly why he's the guy being shopped.

TaylorStSox
10-11-2013, 11:32 AM
It's like talking to a wall. There's nothing gimmicky about Quintana. He throws hard and attacks the zone. That's a power pitcher.

DumpJerry
10-11-2013, 12:23 PM
It's like talking to a wall. There's nothing gimmicky about Quintana. He throws hard and attacks the zone. That's a power pitcher.
Not true. I once saw him release the ball and then it turned into a duck and flew away. The opposing Manager yelled at the Umpires because of his "gimmick," but there was nothing the Rule Book prohibiting it.

blandman
10-11-2013, 02:02 PM
It's like talking to a wall. There's nothing gimmicky about Quintana. He throws hard and attacks the zone. That's a power pitcher.

It's like talking to a wall. A 91 mph fastball is not throwing hard.

kittle42
10-11-2013, 02:04 PM
It's like talking to a wall. A 91 mph fastball is not throwing hard.

Regardless of the rest of his position, this is correct.

mzh
10-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Regardless of the rest of his position, this is correct.
No, but everything is relative. If only ten lefties in the league throw harder than him, it's beside the point. He's not a pitcher that relies on deception and craftiness to get outs. He's not Bruce Chen. Anybody who's watched him pitch knows that this is the case.

TaylorStSox
10-11-2013, 02:13 PM
Is Chris Sale a power pitcher? His average FB is 93.

kittle42
10-11-2013, 02:25 PM
Is Chris Sale a power pitcher? His average FB is 93.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. Is it at 92? 93? 94? More?

At some point solely by numbers, 93 is power and 92 is not, I suppose. I have no idea where the line is.

TaylorStSox
10-11-2013, 02:30 PM
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Is it at 92? 93? 94? More?

At some point solely by numbers, 93 is power and 92 is not, I suppose. I have no idea where the line is.

And that's ridiculous.

SoxSpeed22
10-11-2013, 03:02 PM
What makes Jose different than "power" pitchers is that he is able to hit any part of the strike zone with his fastball. Batters had a much tougher time getting to his fastball with two strikes this year, since he was able to use location to set them up and put them away. I would like to see him use his secondary pitches early in the count next year, but that's assuming he does polish it up a little more.
Back to Granderson, I'm also in the camp of signing him for the right price. If someone offers him a ton of money, there is no need to get into a bidding war.

doublem23
10-11-2013, 03:12 PM
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Is it at 92? 93? 94? More?

At some point solely by numbers, 93 is power and 92 is not, I suppose. I have no idea where the line is.

It's not just velocity, it's also about command, usage, angle, movement, all sorts of stuff. I don't think anybody here is claiming that Quintana is a fireball guy like Aroldis Chapman, we're just suggesting the idea that he's a soft-tossing junkballer magician is a bit untrue, as well.

getonbckthr
10-11-2013, 04:43 PM
How about instead of having to use terms like "power" "fire-baller" or "soft tosser" we use what he is, a very good and effective pitcher that can, you know, pitch.

RCWHITESOX
10-11-2013, 05:20 PM
I thought this post was about the Sox going after Granderson; not about whether Quintana was a power pitcher or not.

blandman
10-11-2013, 11:43 PM
It's not just velocity, it's also about command, usage, angle, movement, all sorts of stuff. I don't think anybody here is claiming that Quintana is a fireball guy like Aroldis Chapman, we're just suggesting the idea that he's a soft-tossing junkballer magician is a bit untrue, as well.

Before any of those things though, he's a guy with an extremely hidden ball. The discussion on Jose Quintana's effectiveness has to start there, because that's what sets him up for success. He hides it like a champ. I don't care if he's a fireballer or not (he's not though), more than anything it's the deception that defines him and allows him to be so effective. Take it away, and he's not going to be the same pitcher.

dakuda
10-12-2013, 09:19 AM
I thought this post was about the Sox going after Granderson; not about whether Quintana was a power pitcher or not.

I was going to post the same thing.

Chez
10-12-2013, 10:47 AM
I thought this post was about the Sox going after Granderson; not about whether Quintana was a power pitcher or not.

I can say without reservation (or referring to FanGraphs) that Quintana has a stronger arm than Granderson.

SI1020
10-12-2013, 11:16 AM
I thought this post was about the Sox going after Granderson; not about whether Quintana was a power pitcher or not. The Sox should not pursue Granderson and Quintana is not a soft tossing lefty.

blandman
10-12-2013, 12:33 PM
I can say without reservation (or referring to FanGraphs) that Quintana has a stronger arm than Granderson.

:rolling:

johnny bench
10-13-2013, 09:01 AM
I read the whole article linked by the OP. I agree with the scout that this team doesn't need one guy, it needs six.

kittle42
10-13-2013, 10:50 AM
And that's ridiculous.

I know! That was my point.

blandman
10-13-2013, 05:07 PM
And that's ridiculous.

No it isn't. He did lose velocity this year (which is actually worrisome). But he throws on average a lot harder than Quintana (MORE than 2mph) and dials it up to 98 (whereas he used to be able to dial it up to over 100). It's a whole other league of velocity. The only reason to think there's not a line between these guys is to ignore reality. Quintana's TOP speed that he barely throws is closer to Sale's average fastball than Quintana's average fastball velocity is to Sale's average.

RCWHITESOX
10-13-2013, 05:15 PM
No it isn't. He did lose velocity this year (which is actually worrisome). But he throws on average a lot harder than Quintana (MORE than 2mph) and dials it up to 98 (whereas he used to be able to dial it up to over 100). It's a whole other league of velocity. The only reason to think there's not a line between these guys is to ignore reality. Quintana's TOP speed that he barely throws is closer to Sale's average fastball than Quintana's average fastball velocity is to Sale's average.

Here we go again on Quintana; personally who gives a rats ass as long as he gets the job done. Back to Granderson I'm good with it.

rdivaldi
11-05-2013, 03:04 PM
Yankees make qualifying offers to Cano, Granderson (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/yankees-qualifying-offers-cano-granderson-202349415--mlb.html)

I don't think I want the Sox to lose draft picks and pay upwards of $15 mil per season. I'd pass.

Noneck
11-05-2013, 03:58 PM
Yankees make qualifying offers to Cano, Granderson (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/yankees-qualifying-offers-cano-granderson-202349415--mlb.html)

I don't think I want the Sox to lose draft picks and pay upwards of $15 mil per season. I'd pass.


The price of talent is skyrocketing. If the Sox want to compete in the future they are going to have to start ponying up. This is not an endorsement to go after granderson.

Tragg
11-05-2013, 07:26 PM
Before any of those things though, he's a guy with an extremely hidden ball. The discussion on Jose Quintana's effectiveness has to start there, because that's what sets him up for success. He hides it like a champ. I don't care if he's a fireballer or not (he's not though), more than anything it's the deception that defines him and allows him to be so effective. Take it away, and he's not going to be the same pitcher.
If so, they haven't found it in 2 years. It's a little like saying if pitcher X loses his ability to hit the corners, or loses velocity, he won't be as effective.

Still, he's the pitcher I'd trade because we'd be selling high for a change.

LoveYourSuit
11-05-2013, 07:48 PM
The price of talent is skyrocketing. If the Sox want to compete in the future they are going to have to start ponying up. This is not an endorsement to go after granderson.

International FA and the draft will be the way to go.

The numbers being kicked around for Elsbury, Choo, and others are ridiculous.

Zisk77
11-08-2013, 11:57 AM
I thought this post was about the Sox going after Granderson; not about whether Quintana was a power pitcher or not.


Foolish poster. Granderson is a red Herring and so is Quintana. This thread is really about firing Greg Walker.:redneck

cards press box
12-05-2013, 03:16 AM
It sounds as if the Mets are making a strong push for Granderson.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/new_york_mets/index.html

DumpJerry
12-05-2013, 07:24 AM
It sounds as if the Mets are making a strong push for Granderson.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/new_york_mets/index.html
But....but.....don't they also want Quintana?

#1swisher
12-10-2013, 06:12 PM
Joel Sherman ‏@Joelsherman1 (https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1)
Column http://nyp.st/IOjTFi (http://t.co/jcLe6tSLlb) #Mets (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Mets&src=hash) make Granderson official -- but that can't be it, can it? The promise was for much more


Chuck Garfien ‏@ChuckGarfien (https://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien)
New Met Curtis Granderson. White Sox called after signing Jose Abreu. Had surface talks. Nothing more.