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kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 04:12 AM
Am I the only one who would like to see Tony Graffanino at second and Willie Harris in center? Graffanino has done nothing but play well in his opportunities, he gets on base and could help us as a starter. Aaron Rowand on the other hand is 4th outfielder type talent. A lot of people don't remember but Graffy was once considered Atlanta's second baseman of the future. Would it really hurt to give him a chance?

TornLabrum
08-06-2002, 08:04 AM
Graffanino is the ideal utility guy. Hits well coming off the bench after sitting out several days, but can't hit a lick when playing every day fields adequately enough to stay in the lineup in a limited role, but makes some of our butchers look good out there when playing regularly; plays three positions but none really well. Tony Graffanino isn't even the equivalent of Alan Bannister.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-06-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
...Tony Graffanino isn't even the equivalent of Alan Bannister.

You mean Alan "E" Bannister? LOL! Now there is a guy who would be real popular with the pitching AND DEFENSE crowd. The Valentin haters would have a field day.

:smile:

DrCrawdad
08-06-2002, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Graffanino is the ideal utility guy. Hits well coming off the bench after sitting out several days, but can't hit a lick when playing every day fields adequately enough to stay in the lineup in a limited role, but makes some of our butchers look good out there when playing regularly; plays three positions but none really well. Tony Graffanino isn't even the equivalent of Alan Bannister.

Graff is passable as an occassional replacement at 3rd and SS, but I think he's best at 2nd. Much better than Ray-Ray. Ok, that's not much of a compliment.


:graff
"Mr. Reinsdorf likes me so it doesn't matter what you think."

TornLabrum
08-06-2002, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Graff is passable as an occassional replacement at 3rd and SS, but I think he's best at 2nd. Much better than Ray-Ray. Ok, that's not much of a compliment.

I'm reminded of a guy several years ago on the Sox mailing list who told me that Chris Snopek was already one of the top half-dozen shortstops in baseball based on his limited performance the previous season. In addition to his defensive prowess, which he rated as much better than Ozzie's he cited his sterling offensive performance (based on less than 100 AB mostly against lefties, iirc. Well, we got to see what Snopek had the next season, and it wasn't pretty.

Someone on the AOL Sox board calls this overrating of utility players Greg Norton Syndrome. Like Norton, Graffy is a good guy to have coming off your bench, but put him in there every day, and you'll find out just how weak he really is all around.

There is a reason some guys are lifetime utility players. It's not a bad thing. Those guys are as valuable to your club as the all-stars. The thing you have to remember is that they're not os good as you think.

When I was a kid the Sox had a utility infielder named Sammy Esposito. Excellent as a guy playing every few days for Aparicio or Fox, but you wouldn't want him in there every day. Grafanino reminds me of Esposito with a little bit better bat.

Tragg
08-06-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Am I the only one who would like to see Tony Graffanino at second and Willie Harris in center? Graffanino has done nothing but play well in his opportunities, he gets on base and could help us as a starter. Aaron Rowand on the other hand is 4th outfielder type talent. A lot of people don't remember but Graffy was once considered Atlanta's second baseman of the future. Would it really hurt to give him a chance?

The only way that would make sense to me is considering Daver's AAA reports that our best infielders are really second basemen. We know we don't have a real centerfielder anywhere close to major league caliber.
Now whether Willy has a chance to be a good CF, I have no idea.

baggio202
08-06-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


I'm reminded of a guy several years ago on the Sox mailing list who told me that Chris Snopek was already one of the top half-dozen shortstops in baseball based on his limited performance the previous season. In addition to his defensive prowess, which he rated as much better than Ozzie's he cited his sterling offensive performance (based on less than 100 AB mostly against lefties, iirc. Well, we got to see what Snopek had the next season, and it wasn't pretty.

Someone on the AOL Sox board calls this overrating of utility players Greg Norton Syndrome. Like Norton, Graffy is a good guy to have coming off your bench, but put him in there every day, and you'll find out just how weak he really is all around.

There is a reason some guys are lifetime utility players. It's not a bad thing. Those guys are as valuable to your club as the all-stars. The thing you have to remember is that they're not os good as you think.

When I was a kid the Sox had a utility infielder named Sammy Esposito. Excellent as a guy playing every few days for Aparicio or Fox, but you wouldn't want him in there every day. Grafanino reminds me of Esposito with a little bit better bat.

if we move both thomas and lee this off season, which is a real possibility (depending on thomas' contract situation) would graffy make a viable DH and jimenez could move into the utility role???

you make a good point about why guys are utility players but there are also examples of guys like david eckstein and scott spezio who were also labled utility players at best but once they got a chance to play everday they did show that they could be effective...tony wouldnt be the prototypical DH but couldnt he be effective in the 2 spot???...then his weak but versitle (lol) defense wont matter

Randar68
08-06-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
tony wouldnt be the prototypical DH


Good GOD! You're joking, right?

kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

Someone on the AOL Sox board calls this overrating of utility players Greg Norton Syndrome. Like Norton, Graffy is a good guy to have coming off your bench, but put him in there every day, and you'll find out just how weak he really is all around.

So the answer is to never give him a chance as a starter even if he performs well off the bench?

delben91
08-06-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


So the answer is to never give him a chance as a starter even if he performs well off the bench?

The best answer would be to have a group of quality players in the infield so that tony would best help the team off the bench.

:KW
"What are these 'quality players' you speak of?"

kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by delben91


The best answer would be to have a group of quality players in the infield so that tony would best help the team off the bench.

:KW
"What are these 'quality players' you speak of?"

We don't even know he can't help us a starter. I could see him putting up a .360 OBP.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2002, 03:25 PM
1st of all I believe Aaron is going to be a real real good player, and he already is great defensive center fielder, if he got a change to play a whole year, like he should next year, he'll put up good numbers. Second of all we need Tony G on the bench, because Rowand and Liefer are not good pinch hitters, infact they are really bad pinch hitters, Tony G is a real good pinch hitter and a great utility guy, and there is no doubt in my mind if Tony G, and Rowand each played a whole season, Rowand would put up much better numbers then graffanino, Tony G is much more valuable to us coming off the bench then he is to us when he starts.

Randar68
08-06-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
1st of all I believe Aaron is going to be a real real good player, and he already is great defensive center fielder, if he got a change to play a whole year, like he should next year, he'll put up good numbers.

:whoflungpoo

delben91
08-06-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


:whoflungpoo

Now Randar, if we have Rowand in center and Versatile behind the plate, think of the solid defense and unbelieveable offense we'd start to have up the middle.

baggio202
08-06-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



Good GOD! You're joking, right?

my question was if both thomas and lee arnt here next year would graffinino make a viable DH???..obviously by your response you think not...since we all know we wont even go near the free agent market exactly who would you have as a DH under those circumstances???....the only other option that i see is leifer...

Daver
08-06-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


my question was if both thomas and lee arnt here next year would graffinino make a viable DH???..obviously by your response you think not...since we all know we wont even go near the free agent market exactly who would you have as a DH under those circumstances???....the only other option that i see is leifer...

Let Rowand play CF and DH!

kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 04:58 PM
Man I need to start threads more often. The responses! Oh the responses!

Randar68
08-06-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


my question was if both thomas and lee arnt here next year would graffinino make a viable DH???..obviously by your response you think not...since we all know we wont even go near the free agent market exactly who would you have as a DH under those circumstances???....the only other option that i see is leifer...

Liefer or Konerko. Also, you have Maggs, who is decent, but not the best Fielder.

IMO, Graffy should not be an everyday player, and he has had full-time shots in the past (pre-Sox) and didn't make the grade.

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
my question was if both thomas and lee arnt here next year would graffinino make a viable DH???..obviously by your response you think not...since we all know we wont even go near the free agent market exactly who would you have as a DH under those circumstances???....the only other option that i see is leifer...

No Thomas or Lee, huh?

So the outfield is Borchard, Harris and Magglio. Infield of Crede, Jiminez(?), Konerko and Hummel(?).

Valentin wouldn't be a bad DH.

doublem23
08-06-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No Thomas or Lee, huh?

So the outfield is Borchard, Harris and Magglio. Infield of Crede, Jiminez(?), Konerko and Hummel(?).

Valentin wouldn't be a bad DH.

Oh, yeah... That sounds like a good team

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Oh, yeah... That sounds like a good team

I never said it was going to be. The future looks pretty bleak for the Sox.

doublem23
08-06-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I never said it was going to be. The future looks pretty bleak for the Sox.

Oh, I know you never said they would be any good. I'm just frustrated that in a matter of 3 years, the Sox have gone from 95 wins, to starting a team I'd be happy if they won 75.

kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


if we move both thomas and lee this off season, which is a real possibility (depending on thomas' contract situation) would graffy make a viable DH and jimenez could move into the utility role???

you make a good point about why guys are utility players but there are also examples of guys like david eckstein and scott spezio who were also labled utility players at best but once they got a chance to play everday they did show that they could be effective...tony wouldnt be the prototypical DH but couldnt he be effective in the 2 spot???...then his weak but versitle (lol) defense wont matter

Where do you think Thomas and Lee would be going and for who? Why would we trade Lee when it's just starting to look like hes learning the strike zone?

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Oh, I know you never said they would be any good. I'm just frustrated that in a matter of 3 years, the Sox have gone from 95 wins, to starting a team I'd be happy if they won 75.

That team might be capable of surprising some teams like the 2000 team did. A group of young guys who came up thru the system together is good for the clubhouse.

95 wins with Baldwin having a hot start and Eldred throwing lights out. We'll see Wright and Biddle trying to do the same next season.

Endless cycle with this team.

doublem23
08-06-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


That team might be capable of surprising some teams like the 2000 team did. A group of young guys who came up thru the system together is good for the clubhouse.

95 wins with Baldwin having a hot start and Eldred throwing lights out. We'll see Wright and Biddle trying to do the same next season.

JM? Is that a hint of optimism I see? :)

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Where do you think Thomas and Lee would be going and for who? Why would we trade Lee when it's just starting to look like hes learning the strike zone?

With Thomas he might walk away with the diminished skills clause.

With Lee it might be a payroll move.

Reshuffling, not rebuilding! :D:

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
JM? Is that a hint of optimism I see? :)

I don't know.

I like watching the young kids, but I'm not sure if the team has a really shot at winning the division. Depends on what happens with the Twins as well.

Spring Training will be fun though. I sense another Thomas - Manuel brawl. :smile:

baggio202
08-06-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Where do you think Thomas and Lee would be going and for who? Why would we trade Lee when it's just starting to look like hes learning the strike zone?

i get the feeling you are under the impression the white sox will be making moves in the off season to improve this team....the only moves they will make is to keep cutting payroll..especially if there is a strike...they lose revenue from this year and when they do come back you gotta figure attendance will be way down and so will sales from mechandise and even tv contracts...no way we go into next year w/o more salary dumping...

lee is scheduled to make 4.2 million next year..thats great for a guy that is the worst fundemental baseball player ive ever seen since lonnie smith .,..carlos is learning the strike zone...hmmm...so instead of striking out on a pitch in the dirt he will draw a walk and then get picked off :)

doublem23
08-06-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I don't know.

I like watching the young kids, but I'm not sure if the team has a really shot at winning the division. Depends on what happens with the Twins as well.

Spring Training will be fun though. I sense another Thomas - Manuel brawl. :smile:

Speaking of brawls, when is someone going to stick a fist in Torii Hunter's stupd head?

baggio202
08-06-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Where do you think Thomas and Lee would be going and for who? Why would we trade Lee when it's just starting to look like hes learning the strike zone?

i forgot to answer for who...or would that be whom??? :?: ...anyways...my guess would be for a couple of 28 year old single A prospects who have had 3 or 4 arm surgeries each and both with an era higher than todd ritchie's...but KW will say our scouts have been following these guys for 13 years since JR high and they really like their fastball..and we all know how great i am at turning fastball pitcher around :whiner:

Jerry_Manuel
08-06-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Speaking of brawls, when is someone going to stick a fist in Torii Hunter's stupd head?

When's he wearing a Yankee uniform?

Or how about when the O's meet the Twins? Fear Gary Matthews!

:)

awesomefan
08-06-2002, 06:43 PM
I'm with you Kermit....I LOVE TONY GRAFFANINO!!!!

Ol Aches & Pains
08-06-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Graffy was once considered Atlanta's second baseman of the future. Would it really hurt to give him a chance?

And why isn't he Atlanta's second baseman of the present?

Yes, it would hurt to give him a chance. Graffaninio's a good utility fill-in type player, but if you play him every day, he will kill you.

baggio202
08-06-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


....but if you play him every day, he will kill you.

we are already dead :D:

kermittheefrog
08-06-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains

Yes, it would hurt to give him a chance. Graffaninio's a good utility fill-in type player, but if you play him every day, he will kill you.

Wow and there are people who said the same thing about Craig Counsell. Whattaya know? Counsell has been starting on two World Series teams...

delben91
08-07-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Wow and there are people who said the same thing about Craig Counsell. Whattaya know? Counsell has been starting on two World Series teams...

Ok, since we're dead in the water the rest of the year, it can't "hurt" us to try him. So do you sit Crash, put Willie in center and Graffy at second? The other logical option would be Graffy at third, but sitting Crede logically won't happen.

:jerry
"And I always use logic."

kermittheefrog
08-07-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by delben91


Ok, since we're dead in the water the rest of the year, it can't "hurt" us to try him. So do you sit Crash, put Willie in center and Graffy at second? The other logical option would be Graffy at third, but sitting Crede logically won't happen.

:jerry
"And I always use logic."

Yeah Graffy at second, Harris in center! But now that I've said it it's probably too stathead to happen.