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voodoochile
08-12-2013, 12:38 AM
I've mentioned this a couple times recently, but it's probably worth it's own thread. Dunn finally got his OPS above .800 for the season - no small feat considering how bad he was the first few months.. So what do they do if he keeps climbing the OPS ladder, ends up around 40 HR and a .900 OPS?

Keep him because they don't have a better option for 1B next year?

Trade him because he actually might bring something if he can continue to hit?

The guy's been on a roll since June. I'm rooting for him to close the season strong. That way whatever direction they go it will be good for the team. Guy is definitely proving he's got some gas left in the tank.

amsteel
08-12-2013, 06:58 AM
After 2.5 years, he's finally the player they thought they were signing.

Without Dunn, this team has zero power.

24thStFan
08-12-2013, 08:10 AM
Didn't Dunn clear waivers? I'm not sure he has great value, but if the Sox can move him in the offseason for someone who can meet one of our many needs, I think they should.

Moses_Scurry
08-12-2013, 08:14 AM
I think you only deal him if the other team assumes all of his salary.

wassagstdu
08-12-2013, 08:18 AM
Adam Dunn plays well only for teams going nowhere in games that don't have any significance. A solo homer down 5-0 in the ninth is his trademark. Maybe the Sox should extend his contract and he might end up in the Hall of Fame.

aryzner
08-12-2013, 08:19 AM
I think you only deal him if the other team assumes all of his salary.

I would be ecstatic if Hahn could pull this off.

blandman
08-12-2013, 08:21 AM
I think you only deal him if the other team assumes all of his salary.

No one's doing that. But if he continues to prove an able DH, you can probably get a team to pickup minimal (a few million) in salary and throw in a decent prospect.

Noneck
08-12-2013, 08:22 AM
Didn't Dunn clear waivers? I'm not sure he has great value, but if the Sox can move him in the offseason for someone who can meet one of our many needs, I think they should.

Yes he cleared waivers, if he had any value he would be snatched.

Hitmen77
08-12-2013, 09:34 AM
Congratulations to Dunn on his achievement. Too bad it's essentially meaningless to the White Sox since this team is cemented in last place. We needed his bat in 2011 and 2012 when it might have actually have made a difference, but he turned out to be a colossal bust.

Hopefully his recent success will make it more likely that the White Sox can unload him. It depends on whether there are teams out there desperate enough for power to be willing to assume most of his remaining salary. It also depends on whether the Sox are willing to eat a portion of his remaining salary.

I realize that trading Dunn now would likely mean even more losses for the Sox this year, but I think it would be better for the team long term if they could unload him now.

getonbckthr
08-12-2013, 09:37 AM
Where can we find his offensive splits between being the DH and being the 1B/LF? It seems he has had his best run with the Sox this year during Konerko's lengthy DL stint.

voodoochile
08-12-2013, 09:52 AM
Where can we find his offensive splits between being the DH and being the 1B/LF? It seems he has had his best run with the Sox this year during Konerko's lengthy DL stint.

He clearly performs better as 1B posting a .885 OPS at that position compared to .699 as DH. Both have reasonable sample sizes also.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/4808/adam-dunn

I wouldn't mind keeping Dunn if the choice is simply to unload his salary because not having Dunn will only add one more position to be filled next year (assuming PK retires or moves on).

Foulke You
08-12-2013, 10:18 AM
Congratulations to Dunn on his achievement. Too bad it's essentially meaningless to the White Sox since this team is cemented in last place. We needed his bat in 2011 and 2012 when it might have actually have made a difference, but he turned out to be a colossal bust.

Hopefully his recent success will make it more likely that the White Sox can unload him. It depends on whether there are teams out there desperate enough for power to be willing to assume most of his remaining salary. It also depends on whether the Sox are willing to eat a portion of his remaining salary.

I realize that trading Dunn now would likely mean even more losses for the Sox this year, but I think it would be better for the team long term if they could unload him now.
I will not argue that Dunn was ridiculously awful in 2011 (and the first two months of 2013) but his 2012 season was pretty solid and he had some meaningful hits and HRs for last year's contending club. 41HRs, 96RBI, and 103BBs is what he was brought here to do. It's just unfortunate that there has been more bad than good with Dunn.

2012 stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=dunnad01&year=2012&t=b

billyvsox
08-12-2013, 10:19 AM
If you can deal him and get most of his salary paid, that should be option 1. If not able to that, then keep him for one more year and bat him 7th at DH. Hope he starts fast next year and deal him at the deadline.

blandman
08-12-2013, 10:31 AM
He clearly performs better as 1B posting a .885 OPS at that position compared to .699 as DH. Both have reasonable sample sizes also.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/4808/adam-dunn

I wouldn't mind keeping Dunn if the choice is simply to unload his salary because not having Dunn will only add one more position to be filled next year (assuming PK retires or moves on).

Whoa. Haven't seen a 1B/DH split like that since Frank.

doublem23
08-12-2013, 10:34 AM
Yes he cleared waivers, if he had any value he would be snatched.

That's not really true, plenty of guys clear waivers and then get traded afterward. It's just teams would rather risk negotiating the Sox eating some salary than risk getting stuck with the whole bill.

Noneck
08-12-2013, 11:30 AM
That's not really true, plenty of guys clear waivers and then get traded afterward. It's just teams would rather risk negotiating the Sox eating some salary than risk getting stuck with the whole bill.

If he had the value of his salary, a team would have taken him off waviers and not worried about the Sox eating salary. We will see how it plays out.

Goose
08-12-2013, 11:59 AM
I think you only deal him if the other team assumes all of his salary.

I would deal him if the other team assumes 1/2 his salary.

TDog
08-12-2013, 01:20 PM
Didn't Dunn clear waivers? I'm not sure he has great value, but if the Sox can move him in the offseason for someone who can meet one of our many needs, I think they should.

My guess is that Dunn clearing waivers indicates no one wants to take on his salary, not that no one wants him.

Players mid-season never have great trade value, unless, perhaps, you have a fan base demanding one specific player at the deadline and a management bowing to the pressure. It's possible that Rios brings back something in return if the player to be named later was a player who wouldn't have cleared waivers, but that is just wild and hopeful speculation.

But the fact that no one wants to take on Dunn's salary would indicate it would be hard to move him somewhere because trading him and effectively eating his contract would be counterproductive.

SCCWS
08-12-2013, 01:27 PM
It's possible that Rios brings back something in return if the player to be named later was a player who wouldn't have cleared waivers, but that is just wild and hopeful speculation.

.

??? The player to be named later is in Charlotte.

slavko
08-12-2013, 01:30 PM
He clearly performs better as 1B posting a .885 OPS at that position compared to .699 as DH. Both have reasonable sample sizes also.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/4808/adam-dunn



Or it could merely mean that he had a batting resurgence at the same time that PK was on the DL or not available to play 1B. So it could be coincidence.

JB98
08-12-2013, 01:38 PM
I wanted to trade him last offseason. I'm still in favor of moving him, if possible. His value is higher now than it was last offseason, if for no other reason than there is one year less remaining on his contract. He's also swinging the bat better now than he has in a few years.

SouthSideMike
08-12-2013, 02:17 PM
I was going to say that maybe the Rangers would be a trade partner again and put Dunn at DH if Berkman couldn't make it back, but it looks like he's doing well in his rehab stint, so doesn't look like that's possible anymore.

balke
08-12-2013, 06:37 PM
I won't throw a fit if he is let go. Someone mentioned keeping him for half a season next year, then trading him for a player at the deadline. I think the Sox are okay on money, that might be the best thing to do if he continues to hit HR.

If you are a believer that hitting is contagious, I think you have to believe Adam Dunn is a deadly virus. The Sox need to move on from him long term, and any thought of acquiring a hitter like him for market value again.

Red Barchetta
08-12-2013, 06:58 PM
He clearly performs better as 1B posting a .885 OPS at that position compared to .699 as DH. Both have reasonable sample sizes also.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/4808/adam-dunn

I wouldn't mind keeping Dunn if the choice is simply to unload his salary because not having Dunn will only add one more position to be filled next year (assuming PK retires or moves on).

I remember Dunn was originally hesitant to sign with the SOX because he didn't want to be a full-time DH.

I remember how Frank Thomas used to comment about he did not like to play 1B, but he had similar numbers that argued better statistics when he played the field.

Personally, I think it keeps their heads in the game better than DH, plus if you have a bad at bat, you can make a good play in the field to help forget about it. If your the DH, you sit there or go hit the batting cages in the tunnel.

voodoochile
08-12-2013, 07:54 PM
Or it could merely mean that he had a batting resurgence at the same time that PK was on the DL or not available to play 1B. So it could be coincidence.

2.5 month resurgence is a heck of a run...

Hartman
08-12-2013, 08:16 PM
Man it doesn't take much for you guys to forget mediocracy. The guy can hit a home run every now and again, draw a walk once and a blue moon, and strike out every other time. He needs to be moved.

voodoochile
08-12-2013, 08:43 PM
Guy's got something like a .930 OPS since June is on a pace to hit 40+ HR and drive in 90+ on a team with zero offensive ability. There are exactly 11 guys in the majors with an OPS over .900 this season. If Dunn finishes around .850 he'll be in the top 25 in the league. I don't see how you can dismiss that kind of performance.

Noneck
08-12-2013, 08:52 PM
Guy's got something like a .930 OPS since June is on a pace to hit 40+ HR and drive in 90+ on a team with zero offensive ability. There are exactly 11 guys in the majors with an OPS over .900 this season. If Dunn finishes around .850 he'll be in the top 25 in the league. I don't see how you can dismiss that kind of performance.


At 15M a year every team in baseball is dismissing it, so why cant the people here do the same?

balke
08-12-2013, 11:14 PM
Guy's got something like a .930 OPS since June is on a pace to hit 40+ HR and drive in 90+ on a team with zero offensive ability. There are exactly 11 guys in the majors with an OPS over .900 this season. If Dunn finishes around .850 he'll be in the top 25 in the league. I don't see how you can dismiss that kind of performance.


I don't think it's being dismissed. He can hit homeruns (apparently only at first base). What value is that to the Sox? He's not a very good first baseman. He's extremely streaky, and hits anywhere from .159 to .239.

I think there's value for a contender, which is what the Sox thought they'd be when they got him. But, if he can't be a DH, then what's the point? Kinda the same feeling I had when the Sox signed him.

voodoochile
08-12-2013, 11:24 PM
I don't think it's being dismissed. He can hit homeruns (apparently only at first base). What value is that to the Sox? He's not a very good first baseman. He's extremely streaky, and hits anywhere from .159 to .239.

I think there's value for a contender, which is what the Sox thought they'd be when they got him. But, if he can't be a DH, then what's the point? Kinda the same feeling I had when the Sox signed him.

Yeah but when the Sox signed him they had PK. Now they don't.

Iron Dragon2
08-14-2013, 09:24 PM
Make him go away.

mahagga73
08-14-2013, 09:38 PM
I don't think it's being dismissed. He can hit homeruns (apparently only at first base). What value is that to the Sox? He's not a very good first baseman. He's extremely streaky, and hits anywhere from .159 to .239.

I think there's value for a contender, which is what the Sox thought they'd be when they got him. But, if he can't be a DH, then what's the point? Kinda the same feeling I had when the Sox signed him.

His value to the Sox is he is one of a couple players in the lineup who aren't allergic to RBI's. And that not a good first baseman argument is weak because there have been a lot of good hit no field first baseman , Big Hurt was mediocre at best but who cares when you hit like that. You can hide those deficiencies at first base. Do you think anyone cares Miguel Cabrera is a butcher at 3B? And that's a much more critical position.

34rancher
08-14-2013, 09:51 PM
Yeah but when the Sox signed him they had PK. Now they don't.

Actually they weren't sure PK was coming back quite yet. I remember in the thread that was a big discussion point as to whether this meant Paulie was coming back or not.
Dunn is a Sammy Sosa. Lots of meaningless seasons when team is sub .500. When a team needs him in critical period of season or time in game he's MIA with a K. He just isn't a pressure guy who can lead a team. As I said when we signed him, be ready for no playoff baseball until and peavy were gone. Horrible off season habits and no real contributions when it matters on wrong side of 30.

balke
08-15-2013, 11:48 AM
His value to the Sox is he is one of a couple players in the lineup who aren't allergic to RBI's. And that not a good first baseman argument is weak because there have been a lot of good hit no field first baseman , Big Hurt was mediocre at best but who cares when you hit like that. You can hide those deficiencies at first base. Do you think anyone cares Miguel Cabrera is a butcher at 3B? And that's a much more critical position.


Im missing the part where Dunn is in some way comparable to future hall of fame sluggers?

TheVulture
08-15-2013, 11:58 AM
Guy's got something like a .930 OPS since June is on a pace to hit 40+ HR and drive in 90+ on a team with zero offensive ability. There are exactly 11 guys in the majors with an OPS over .900 this season. If Dunn finishes around .850 he'll be in the top 25 in the league. I don't see how you can dismiss that kind of performance.


You can't dismiss that kind of performance, but face facts. Dunn has stunk 12 out of 17 months he's worn a Sox uniform. Racking up garbage time numbers isn't going to change the fact he is liable to put up half a season to a full season of garbage at any given time.

kittle42
08-15-2013, 12:49 PM
Im missing the part where Dunn is in some way comparable to future hall of fame sluggers?

Similar performance through age 32, per baseball-reference.com. 3 HOFers here, and Thome.


Harmon Killebrew (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/killeha01.shtml) (873) *
Reggie Jackson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksre01.shtml) (873) *
Rocky Colavito (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colavro01.shtml) (872)
Jim Thome (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml) (863)
Jose Canseco (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cansejo01.shtml) (858)
Dale Murphy (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda05.shtml) (846)
Ralph Kiner (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinerra01.shtml) (844) *
Andruw Jones (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtml) (835)
Boog Powell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/powelbo01.shtml) (826)
Greg Luzinski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/luzingr01.shtml) (824)

slavko
08-15-2013, 04:18 PM
We need to be careful about calling Dunn's revival garbage time, because Beckham's revival took place over roughly the same time. Of course no one's made this point because Beckham's a halo guy and Dunn isn't.

So for consistency we should call both revivals garbage time hitting or better yet, ease up on Dunn.

balke
08-15-2013, 06:59 PM
Similar performance through age 32, per baseball-reference.com. 3 HOFers here, and Thome.


Harmon Killebrew (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/killeha01.shtml) (873) *
Reggie Jackson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksre01.shtml) (873) *
Rocky Colavito (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colavro01.shtml) (872)
Jim Thome (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml) (863)
Jose Canseco (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cansejo01.shtml) (858)
Dale Murphy (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda05.shtml) (846)
Ralph Kiner (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinerra01.shtml) (844) *
Andruw Jones (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtml) (835)
Boog Powell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/powelbo01.shtml) (826)
Greg Luzinski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/luzingr01.shtml) (824)



What is this? I just see numbers with no reference.

I need to know what chart has an 8-time all-star, 7-time home run leader, and career .940 OPS Ralph Kiner in the same discussion as Adam Dunn.

4 time strikeout leader.
Lowest single season batting average since 1909.
Most errors of any left fielder through 2011.
2 All-stars, 0 playoff appearances. 0 titles.
Let go from Cincinnati because he can't play defense.

If you want to be rational and say "Adam Dunn is a top 12 1Bman right now even with his poor defense", fine. I don't want to hear "Frank Thomas, Miguel Cabrera, Gehrig".

He's on pace for 37 Hr and 85 RBI. People are excited by his hot streak. He's signed through next season, trade him at the deadline if he continues to hit the ball. Don't wait around for another 2011 season.

balke
08-15-2013, 07:03 PM
We need to be careful about calling Dunn's revival garbage time, because Beckham's revival took place over roughly the same time. Of course no one's made this point because Beckham's a halo guy and Dunn isn't.

So for consistency we should call both revivals garbage time hitting or better yet, ease up on Dunn.

Can we call his whole career garbage time? He has the longest active streak of any MLB player without a single playoff appearance.

tstrike2000
08-15-2013, 10:14 PM
I'm glad Dunn's made a resurgence these last few months, but as someone else said, he's been bad for 12 of his 17 months here. Too much of his time here has reminded me more of Mark Reynolds than Adam Dunn. If this helps his trade value this offseason, then I'm still hopeful he can be moved.

kittle42
08-15-2013, 10:36 PM
What is this? I just see numbers with no reference.

I need to know what chart has an 8-time all-star, 7-time home run leader, and career .940 OPS Ralph Kiner in the same discussion as Adam Dunn.


I gave you the website, which is an awesome site if you want to look at some baseball history. So how is there no reference? They explain their calculators for player comparisons, career and at current ages, for every player. Every player. Go take a look, and it will answer all your questions. You might be the first person to knock Baseball Reference!

shingo10
08-15-2013, 11:30 PM
I'm not sure what ages Thome, Jones, and Canseco were when the Sox had them but I think putting Dunn in that group is pretty accurate. He gives solid power numbers but isn't necessarily a guy you'd want up in the clutch. He's had his moments and hot stretches but he isn't nor ever was the end-all-be-all.

I think his new approach at the start of the season of not taking walks was an awful idea from the get go...guys like him and Thome add value from getting on base in addition to the homeruns. To try out a different strategy wasn't very smart and the Sox should take just as much blame as he does for that.

KRS1
08-15-2013, 11:49 PM
I'm glad Dunn's made a resurgence these last few months, but as someone else said, he's been bad for 12 of his 17 months here. Too much of his time here has reminded me more of Mark Reynolds than Adam Dunn. If this helps his trade value this offseason, then I'm still hopeful he can be moved.
Unless he has a similar 2014, I'd imagine the demand for him will never be higher than it is right now - and that demand is apparently zero. It definitely shouldn't be any higher in the offseason. Hopefully, the Orioles dive has them desperate enough to give Hahn a call on him, soon.

Nelson Foxtrot
08-16-2013, 03:21 AM
I haven't seen many games lately. Can somebody tell me what changes Dunn has made at the plate? Also, what does everybody think about the lack of power during his hot streak?

Pre-ASB: 360 PA (310 AB) 9 2B, 24 HR .213/.317/.474
Post-ASB: 112 PA (93 AB) 3 2B, 3 HR .301/.411/.430

While he's obviously a much better overall hitter during this time, I'm not sure it really helps his trade value. All the talk before the deadline was based on teams needing a power upgrade. Will GMs focus on the overall numbers, or be worried that Dunn can only hit well by becoming a singles hitter?

Given the cost, speed/defensive-impairments, and playing at a power position, I think we may be overstating Dunn's potential trade value, even if the Sox eat a few million dollars. Of course, a few homers in the next week may change things.

voodoochile
08-16-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm not sure what ages Thome, Jones, and Canseco were when the Sox had them but I think putting Dunn in that group is pretty accurate. He gives solid power numbers but isn't necessarily a guy you'd want up in the clutch. He's had his moments and hot stretches but he isn't nor ever was the end-all-be-all.

I think his new approach at the start of the season of not taking walks was an awful idea from the get go...guys like him and Thome add value from getting on base in addition to the homeruns. To try out a different strategy wasn't very smart and the Sox should take just as much blame as he does for that.

I admit I haven't followed the team that closely this year. Dunn really was trying to not walk as much early in the season? Whose brilliant idea was that? If the team tried to change him... ugh...

TaylorStSox
08-16-2013, 12:17 PM
I admit I haven't followed the team that closely this year. Dunn really was trying to not walk as much early in the season? Whose brilliant idea was that? If the team tried to change him... ugh...

He wasn't "not trying to walk." He changed his approach to be more aggressive early in the count because he's losing bat speed and his ability to fight off pitches with 2 strikes has diminished.

A. Cavatica
08-17-2013, 08:45 AM
Sox need to unload Dunn pronto.

russ99
08-17-2013, 09:53 AM
Sox need to unload Dunn pronto.

I'd think if they found anyone to take him, they'd drive him to the airport.

He's got the ugly combination of huge contract and poor play.

Either cut him and eat the cash (yeah right, this is Jerry we're talking about) or suck it up and deal him at next years deadline when he only has a few months left on his contract.

ND_Sox_Fan
08-17-2013, 10:01 AM
I haven't seen many games lately. Can somebody tell me what changes Dunn has made at the plate?

The change seems to be a focus on going the other way to hit the ball into the open areas in the defensive shift. He's especially been focused on it with guys on base and in situations when the Sox have needed runners on base (i.e. when the Sox are behind by a pile and a HR won't tie the score).

I wouldn't call his approach slap hitting, but it is, perhaps, a more balanced approach.

voodoochile
08-17-2013, 11:14 AM
I'd think if they found anyone to take him, they'd drive him to the airport.

He's got the ugly combination of huge contract and poor play.

Either cut him and eat the cash (yeah right, this is Jerry we're talking about) or suck it up and deal him at next years deadline when he only has a few months left on his contract.

Cutting him makes ZERO sense. Very hard to take you seriously when you suggest it as a viable option.

MISoxfan
08-17-2013, 11:40 AM
What is this? I just see numbers with no reference.

I need to know what chart has an 8-time all-star, 7-time home run leader, and career .940 OPS Ralph Kiner in the same discussion as Adam Dunn.

4 time strikeout leader.
Lowest single season batting average since 1909.
Most errors of any left fielder through 2011.
2 All-stars, 0 playoff appearances. 0 titles.
Let go from Cincinnati because he can't play defense.

If you want to be rational and say "Adam Dunn is a top 12 1Bman right now even with his poor defense", fine. I don't want to hear "Frank Thomas, Miguel Cabrera, Gehrig".

He's on pace for 37 Hr and 85 RBI. People are excited by his hot streak. He's signed through next season, trade him at the deadline if he continues to hit the ball. Don't wait around for another 2011 season.

I think the similar batters come mostly from counting stats and slash line.

Kiner's 10 year career line is .279/.398/.548 with 971 Runs, 369 HRs, 1015 RBI
Dunn's first 10 years line is .250/.381/.521 with 865 Runs, 354 HRs, 990 RBI

I don't think it takes league averages into account, since Kiner's OPS+ and especially oWAR dwarf Dunn's by quite a bit. Of course if Dunn hit .250/.381/.521 over his time here we'd have a division title last season, and maybe even something to show for 2011, but the White Sox version of Dunn has sucked until about May 14th of this year.

#1swisher
08-17-2013, 12:42 PM
(https://twitter.com/ChrisRongey)Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN) 14h (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/368574709173997570)

Adam Dunn has adjusted and teams have stopped using shift against him. With spray charts from http://texasleaguers.com (http://t.co/qQZ5yPBe3V) http://bit.ly/1dfcydl (http://t.co/teo7p2Afgu)


Chris Rongey ‏@ChrisRongey (https://twitter.com/ChrisRongey) 14 Aug (https://twitter.com/ChrisRongey/status/367744459431092224)

This guy calls the postgame show. RT @Deadspin (https://twitter.com/Deadspin): Behold, the ultimate White Sox fan: http://deadsp.in/zaTZQMz (http://t.co/RRqEn6DcAh)



[/URL]
[URL="http://t.co/RRqEn6DcAh"]
https://o.twimg.com/1/proxy.jpg?t=FQQVBBg9aHR0cDovL2ltZy5nYXdrZXJhc3NldH MuY29tL2ltZy8xOHgwam1iOGFuZHplanBnL2stYmlncGljLmpw ZxQCFgASAA&s=OPqmQXTW1jCjldCOnXc4VdoUjDBaMhCsnkr0hgR64MQ (http://t.co/RRqEn6DcAh)

balke
08-17-2013, 05:17 PM
I think the similar batters come mostly from counting stats and slash line.

Kiner's 10 year career line is .279/.398/.548 with 971 Runs, 369 HRs, 1015 RBI
Dunn's first 10 years line is .250/.381/.521 with 865 Runs, 354 HRs, 990 RBI

I don't think it takes league averages into account, since Kiner's OPS+ and especially oWAR dwarf Dunn's by quite a bit. Of course if Dunn hit .250/.381/.521 over his time here we'd have a division title last season, and maybe even something to show for 2011, but the White Sox version of Dunn has sucked until about May 14th of this year.

I took a look at it. The stats are similar for guys like reggie jackson, canseco, greg vaughn, burnitz, and killebrew. Killebrew and Jackson are different eras though. I see Dunn as he is, 12th-16th value 1bman in this league. A guy with a serious risk element to his game when slumping. Not something to reinvest in if he can't hit at DH. They don't have to dump him, but no need to hold on to the dream that he's going to deliver that .260+ avg. .400+ Obp. 1.000+ ops season people are waiting for.

slavko
08-17-2013, 06:42 PM
Cutting him makes ZERO sense. Very hard to take you seriously when you suggest it as a viable option.

Cut your most productive hitter. It just might work. :o:

A. Cavatica
08-17-2013, 08:42 PM
Cut your most productive hitter. It just might work. :o:

Not cut him, trade him to unload salary. He's been hot enough that some team will bite.

Now that the rebuild had begun, he doesn't belong.

voodoochile
08-17-2013, 09:04 PM
Not cut him, trade him to unload salary. He's been hot enough that some team will bite.

Now that the rebuild had begun, he doesn't belong.

I don't mind that, but the suggestion to cut him has no grounding in ANY serious baseball discussion. It's a purely emotional reaction.

voodoochile
08-17-2013, 09:07 PM
Oh and... .826...

At this rate he might hit .900 by season's end. That would be incredible after the horrific start he had.

Golden Sox
08-17-2013, 09:15 PM
I would like to think that if somebody had wanted Dunn, he would be gone by now. Then again did anybody think that both Casper Wells AND Tyler Greene would be picked up by other teams? I realize that both of those guys are making alot less money than Dunn, but I didn't think any team would want anything to do with either Wells or Greene.

Noneck
08-18-2013, 05:14 PM
Hes cleared waviers and has not be taken, so 29 teams dont think he is worth his salary for the rest of this year and next. People can throw out all the stats they want on the guy but hes not worth his salary.

kobo
08-18-2013, 05:28 PM
Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN) 14h (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/368574709173997570)

Adam Dunn has adjusted and teams have stopped using shift against him. With spray charts from http://texasleaguers.com (http://t.co/qQZ5yPBe3V) http://bit.ly/1dfcydl (http://t.co/teo7p2Afgu)




Oh and... .826...

At this rate he might hit .900 by season's end. That would be incredible after the horrific start he had.
This is from the referenced article:

"From June 8 to Aug. 15, Dunn had a .309/.416/.549 slash line with 14 home runs and 40 RBIs. He has walked 38 times and struck out only 58 over the 10-week period, an average of one whiff every 4.22 plate appearances. His batting average on balls in play has also soared from .162 in the first part of the season to .366."

If he keeps this new approach going and finishes the year strong I can see the Sox holding on to him for next year. And if he performs as well next year they might actually get something decent for him at the break next year.

voodoochile
08-18-2013, 06:39 PM
This is from the referenced article:

"From June 8 to Aug. 15, Dunn had a .309/.416/.549 slash line with 14 home runs and 40 RBIs. He has walked 38 times and struck out only 58 over the 10-week period, an average of one whiff every 4.22 plate appearances. His batting average on balls in play has also soared from .162 in the first part of the season to .366."

If he keeps this new approach going and finishes the year strong I can see the Sox holding on to him for next year. And if he performs as well next year they might actually get something decent for him at the break next year.

Or if by some fluke the Sox manage to build a good enough team around the pitching staff to make a run at the division, he's a huge bat in the middle of the lineup.

A. Cavatica
08-18-2013, 06:53 PM
This is from the referenced article:

"From June 8 to Aug. 15, Dunn had a .309/.416/.549 slash line with 14 home runs and 40 RBIs. He has walked 38 times and struck out only 58 over the 10-week period, an average of one whiff every 4.22 plate appearances. His batting average on balls in play has also soared from .162 in the first part of the season to .366."

If he keeps this new approach going and finishes the year strong I can see the Sox holding on to him for next year. And if he performs as well next year they might actually get something decent for him at the break next year.

Small sample size. His time with the Sox has been a disaster, one of the worst banner acquisitions by any team, ever. If he hadn't been such an epic failure the Sox would not be below .400 and and would not have already unloaded better players like Peavy and Rios. Finally, even if Dunn keeps hitting the way he is now, he just lifts the team to .425 and a worse draft position.

Simply put, if there's any chance of unloading his contract, the Sox have to jump at it.

amsteel
08-18-2013, 10:55 PM
If he hadn't been such an epic failure the Sox would not be below .400 and and would not have already unloaded better players like Peavy and Rios. Finally, even if Dunn keeps hitting the way he is now, he just lifts the team to .425 and a worse draft position.

Other things Adam Dunn is responsible for:
The Great Chicago Fire
Extinction of the dinosaurs
The 2000s dot com bubble
Reality TV
Gigli
Dubstep music

waldo_the_wolf
08-19-2013, 08:25 AM
Other things Adam Dunn is responsible for:
The Great Chicago Fire
Extinction of the dinosaurs
The 2000s dot com bubble
Reality TV
Gigli
Dubstep music

And he's ugly and has bad breath too

voodoochile
08-19-2013, 08:43 AM
And he's ugly and has bad breath too

:walnuts
"He took mah jerb!"

sunofgold
08-19-2013, 09:00 AM
Dunn is the most powerful bat in our lineup. We don't have anybody to replace his bat in the lineup. Might actually want to extend him for two more years if you can get a fair price. He leads our team in hrs, RBIs, walks, and obp.

Bobby Thigpen
08-19-2013, 10:30 AM
Other things Adam Dunn is responsible for:
The Great Chicago Fire
Extinction of the dinosaurs
The 2000s dot com bubble
Reality TV
Gigli
Dubstep music
You forgot global warming and stealing Robert Kraft's Super Bowl ring.

Corlose 15
08-19-2013, 12:35 PM
Other things Adam Dunn is responsible for:
The Great Chicago Fire
Extinction of the dinosaurs
The 2000s dot com bubble
Reality TV
Gigli
Dubstep music

7597

Your hitting is bad and you should feel bad!

spawn
08-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Other things Adam Dunn is responsible for:
The Great Chicago Fire
Extinction of the dinosaurs
The 2000s dot com bubble
Reality TV
Gigli
Dubstep music

How could you leave out disco? Geez!

JB98
08-19-2013, 02:08 PM
Dunn is the most powerful bat in our lineup. We don't have anybody to replace his bat in the lineup. Might actually want to extend him for two more years if you can get a fair price. He leads our team in hrs, RBIs, walks, and obp.

No, no, no, a thousand times no. If the argument is the Sox should retain Dunn through the remainder of his contract because they don't have a viable replacement in their system, I can respect that point of view. But under no circumstance should he be kept on this roster past 2014. He's played well below his career norms the majority of his time with the Sox. I can't excuse that because he's been performing better lately. He doesn't merit an extension of any sort.

tstrike2000
08-19-2013, 02:27 PM
No, no, no, a thousand times no. If the argument is the Sox should retain Dunn through the remainder of his contract because they don't have a viable replacement in their system, I can respect that point of view. But under no circumstance should he be kept on this roster past 2014. He's played well below his career norms the majority of his time with the Sox. I can't excuse that because he's been performing better lately. He doesn't merit an extension of any sort.

Agreed, he's playing his best baseball since 2010, which is what sucked us into this contract in the first place. We're happy for Adam Dunn right now, I don't wish bad for the guy, but if he goes back to hitting .180 again for three months, we'll want him back off the team. Besides all that, after this contract expires, I wouldn't want to extend a 35 year old Dunn.

GlassSox
08-20-2013, 11:09 AM
No, no, no, a thousand times no. If the argument is the Sox should retain Dunn through the remainder of his contract because they don't have a viable replacement in their system, I can respect that point of view. But under no circumstance should he be kept on this roster past 2014. He's played well below his career norms the majority of his time with the Sox. I can't excuse that because he's been performing better lately. He doesn't merit an extension of any sort.

Right on JB, excellent post.

Danryan
08-20-2013, 01:36 PM
Let us not be fooled by a couple of good weeks. This team would be far better off without Dunn's rally killing strikeouts, and his contract.

Noneck
08-20-2013, 02:03 PM
This is a guy that does his best work on crap teams. What he is doing now means nothing, the other 29 teams realize this also.

Tragg
08-20-2013, 02:49 PM
Trade him if someone is willing to take most salary and give a good prospect.
Sell high.

KRS1
08-20-2013, 04:06 PM
This is a guy that does his best work on crap teams. What he is doing now means nothing, the other 29 teams realize this also.
Yup.

Domeshot17
08-20-2013, 04:20 PM
WSI Hates Adam Dunn
WSI Loves Tank

KRS1
08-20-2013, 09:53 PM
WSI Hates Adam Dunn
WSI Loves Tank
Care to point out all this love for Tank, because I'm failing to see it?

Goose
08-20-2013, 10:26 PM
If the argument is the Sox should retain Dunn through the remainder of his contract because they don't have a viable replacement in their system, I can respect that point of view.

How is that even a valid point of view, though?

Dunn is sunken cost. We will not be able to take advantage of his services if he manages to turn things around. Why would you want to hang onto him? There is no reason, at all, that we should not dump Dunn (eating most of his salary if needed). None!

Dump this guy and do it now.

sunofgold
08-20-2013, 10:44 PM
You want to be competitive next year and have the starting rotation to do so. We don't have another left handed power hitter to replace him.

Noneck
08-21-2013, 12:16 AM
In two years this guy will probably be the 1st non suspected juicer to have 500+HR's and never make the HOF.

A. Cavatica
08-21-2013, 05:53 AM
You want to be competitive next year and have the starting rotation to do so. We don't have another left handed power hitter to replace him.

This team does not plan to compete next year, which is good, because they don't have the pieces to do so.

Dunn is not someone you can build around.

SCCWS
08-21-2013, 08:12 AM
This team does not plan to compete next year, which is good, because they don't have the pieces to do so.

Dunn is not someone you can build around.

But no team raises the white flag in spring training either. They will try and look like they are competing in an effort to keep selling tickets. I think what they do is work next winter to unload Dunn for the best deal possible . But they will then sign another DH type with whatever money they can save by trading Dunn. But I don't think they will just release Dunn and go with Danks-Tank-Keppionger etc type as a DH out of spring training. They still need window dressing.

Rocky Soprano
08-21-2013, 08:29 AM
How is that even a valid point of view, though?

Dunn is sunken cost. We will not be able to take advantage of his services if he manages to turn things around. Why would you want to hang onto him? There is no reason, at all, that we should not dump Dunn (eating most of his salary if needed). None!

Dump this guy and do it now.

Glad you're not our GM.

doublem23
08-21-2013, 08:37 AM
How is that even a valid point of view, though?

Dunn is sunken cost. We will not be able to take advantage of his services if he manages to turn things around. Why would you want to hang onto him? There is no reason, at all, that we should not dump Dunn (eating most of his salary if needed). None!

Dump this guy and do it now.

Oh, Lordy, he's not blocking anyone in the system from getting PT in Chicago so what point does it serve just to release him? Next July, he'll only have a few months left on his deal, if he can possibly keep his turnaround going to start the 2014 season maybe (maybe) you can find someone willing to take a flyer on him. The Cubs were able to unload Alfonso Soriano and the Jays were able to get rid of Vernon Wells, both players though to be untradeable at one point in their careers.

If Dunn is keeping a highly touted young player stuck in AA or AAA, that's one thing. But he's not, all of the Sox's top hitting prospects still in the minors are still years away from being MLB ready. So play him out, roll the dice that he makes himself a valuable chip for next July. If he doesn't then what do you really lose?

SCCWS
08-21-2013, 10:36 AM
Oh, Lordy, he's not blocking anyone in the system from getting PT in Chicago so what point does it serve just to release him? Next July, he'll only have a few months left on his deal, if he can possibly keep his turnaround going to start the 2014 season maybe (maybe) you can find someone willing to take a flyer on him. The Cubs were able to unload Alfonso Soriano and the Jays were able to get rid of Vernon Wells, both players though to be untradeable at one point in their careers.

If Dunn is keeping a highly touted young player stuck in AA or AAA, that's one thing. But he's not, all of the Sox's top hitting prospects still in the minors are still years away from being MLB ready. So play him out, roll the dice that he makes himself a valuable chip for next July. If he doesn't then what do you really lose?

I agree he is not blocking, but I think after this season his value will be as high as it will ever be. I think the Sox have to see how much they will have to pay of the $15mil and make the best deal they can get. Next July, only the "haves" will bid on him while in the offseason there may be more teams interested. Even if the Sox have to eat 9 and get a mediocre prospect, maybe they can use the money to sign a quality free agent as part of the rebuild.
My fear is Dunn is worse next year and the Sox get the mediocre prospect and nothing else next July.

JB98
08-21-2013, 01:32 PM
How is that even a valid point of view, though?

Dunn is sunken cost. We will not be able to take advantage of his services if he manages to turn things around. Why would you want to hang onto him? There is no reason, at all, that we should not dump Dunn (eating most of his salary if needed). None!

Dump this guy and do it now.

Because there will be 162 games played next season, and somebody will have to start at 1B for the White Sox in each and every one of them.

There aren't any 1B prospects in the organization ready for a big-league shot. The Sox are going to be paying Dunn next year regardless, so it's not the worst thing in the world to let him play out his contract. He can be a veteran placeholder at 1B for one more year until the Sox hopefully acquire or develop somebody who can be a long-term solution at the position.

JB98
08-21-2013, 01:34 PM
I agree he is not blocking, but I think after this season his value will be as high as it will ever be. I think the Sox have to see how much they will have to pay of the $15mil and make the best deal they can get. Next July, only the "haves" will bid on him while in the offseason there may be more teams interested. Even if the Sox have to eat 9 and get a mediocre prospect, maybe they can use the money to sign a quality free agent as part of the rebuild.
My fear is Dunn is worse next year and the Sox get the mediocre prospect and nothing else next July.

He definitely should be shopped and probably will be shopped, but I just don't know if there will be any takers. Other GMs are not stupid. They see the same weaknesses in Dunn's game that we all see.

doublem23
08-21-2013, 02:34 PM
I agree he is not blocking, but I think after this season his value will be as high as it will ever be. I think the Sox have to see how much they will have to pay of the $15mil and make the best deal they can get. Next July, only the "haves" will bid on him while in the offseason there may be more teams interested. Even if the Sox have to eat 9 and get a mediocre prospect, maybe they can use the money to sign a quality free agent as part of the rebuild.
My fear is Dunn is worse next year and the Sox get the mediocre prospect and nothing else next July.

We'll see, I agree that Dunn will likely be shopped this off-season and, it is just my observation, I have no proof of this, the Sox have historically been more likely to eat some parts of a remaining contract when it is expiring at year's end than in the middle of a multi-year deal, but the Sox will need someone to play 1B next year; Konerko is done and I would assume extremely unlikely to return and after Dunn, the next 1B in the organization is either a whole lot of Jeff Keppinger (ugh) or Andy Wilkins... Not a lot of great options on the open market, the two most appealing look to be James Loney and Kendrys Morales but I fear that they're both going to get deals that are too expensive and long for their worth.

A. Cavatica
08-21-2013, 07:44 PM
I think they really need to trade him now for salary relief. The Sox have already folded the season (trading Peavy, Rios, Thornton, and Crain) and the fans have tuned out, not that Dunn brings any fans to the park anyway. The money they'd save by dealing him now compared to dealing him at the deadline next summer is considerable.

As far as who will DH in his place, it's pretty easy to find a DH (or a poor-fielding 1B) on the scrap heap. Production won't matter until the cornerstones of the rebuild are in place. They could run Travis Ishikawa out there for all I care -- the goal during a rebuild is not to win games.

Noneck
08-21-2013, 08:06 PM
The money they'd save by dealing him now compared to dealing him at the deadline next summer is considerable.



Deal him? Hes cleared waivers and is free for the taking. No one has or will bite so it would be major salt and peppering time now to get rid of him.

Tragg
08-21-2013, 08:21 PM
Deal him? Hes cleared waivers and is free for the taking. No one has or will bite so it would be major salt and peppering time now to get rid of him.

They didn't want to get stuck with all of that salary. I hope we would eat a good bit of it to get a decent prospect in here. Dunn is a placeholder IF he has a decent year next year. But he's hot now, so I'd think the prospects of moving him will never be brighter.
I hope we work on Viciedo at first.

Noneck
08-21-2013, 08:28 PM
They didn't want to get stuck with all of that salary. I hope we would eat a good bit of it to get a decent prospect in here. Dunn is a placeholder IF he has a decent year next year. But he's hot now, so I'd think the prospects of moving him will never be brighter.
I hope we work on Viciedo at first.


My point was that dealing him now may not help the club more than next year at the deadline. A lot of money would have to be eaten now and I dont think they would get much of a prospect in return. Next year the Sox will need at least one outfielder, 1st base and/or DH. Viciedo will fill one of those slots but there will still be two to be filled.

A. Cavatica
08-21-2013, 09:28 PM
My point was that dealing him now may not help the club more than next year at the deadline. A lot of money would have to be eaten now and I dont think they would get much of a prospect in return. Next year the Sox will need at least one outfielder, 1st base and/or DH. Viciedo will fill one of those slots but there will still be two to be filled.

Teams needing a bat will want someone who's hot at the moment they swing the deal. Right now, Dunn is hot enough to attract interest, if the Sox eat some of the salary. Next year, the acquiring team would care less about salary, but Dunn might be ice cold and completely untradeable.

Unless KW is somehow running the Cubs by then...:tongue:

kittle42
08-21-2013, 10:42 PM
If he was wanted by a team, the Sox would likely deal him.

Jesus Christ, people. You and your releasing and your (former) DFA'ing. Does anyone understand baseball? No one (basically no one, so don't give me the occasional exception) does these things.

It's all kneejerk bull****, and honestly, I hope Adam Dunn is here next season to hit 50 homers and throw it all in your damn faces.

PS: I don't even care about Adam Dunn and if the Sox got anything for him tomorrow, that would be great, but so many of you are not living in reality.

Tragg
08-21-2013, 11:03 PM
My point was that dealing him now may not help the club more than next year at the deadline. A lot of money would have to be eaten now and I dont think they would get much of a prospect in return. Next year the Sox will need at least one outfielder, 1st base and/or DH. Viciedo will fill one of those slots but there will still be two to be filled.

Good point. If he is hitting well in July 14, that could be his max value point. But that's a big IF.
Yea we have holes. We have money. Do the best we can this offseason..don't waste it on marginal players. We could also make some trades player for player, but those just don't seem to happen much anymore. it's always someone for prospects.

gobears1987
08-22-2013, 05:31 AM
I really hope Dunn continues to do well as the Sox may be able to get something of value for him this offseason. Since the Sox won't be contending next year, it really isn't worth it to have him around next year.

A. Cavatica
08-22-2013, 07:15 PM
I really hope Dunn continues to do well as the Sox may be able to get something of value for him this offseason. Since the Sox won't be contending next year, it really isn't worth it to have him around next year.

It wasn't worth having him around when we were contending, either.

Deadguy
08-22-2013, 08:31 PM
My fear is Dunn is worse next year and the Sox get the mediocre prospect and nothing else next July.

One man's fear is another's most optimistic vision for the future.

We're not getting anything for Dunn. We'll be paying most of his salary while he plays for someone else.

At this point, our Minor League System is laughably bad, and there are no better options, so Dunn is really a non-issue at this point.

I know he's the whipping boy here, and for very valid reasons, but he's not the biggest problem on the team right now.

PK is another issue, if he doesn't retire. A minor league free agent could duplicate his .660 OPS.

Boondock Saint
08-22-2013, 08:38 PM
One man's fear is another's most optimistic vision for the future.

We're not getting anything for Dunn. We'll be paying most of his salary while he plays for someone else.

At this point, our Minor League System is laughably bad, and there are no better options, so Dunn is really a non-issue at this point.

I know he's the whipping boy here, and for very valid reasons, but he's not the biggest problem on the team right now.

PK is another issue, if he doesn't retire. A minor league free agent could duplicate his .660 OPS.

I wasn't aware that we had to keep signing him to contracts until he retires.

Deadguy
08-22-2013, 08:57 PM
I wasn't aware that we had to keep signing him to contracts until he retires.

No one said we did have an obligation, but the White Sox will have a PR dilemma if he chooses not to retire and they don't attempt to resign him.

Boondock Saint
08-22-2013, 09:08 PM
No one said we did have an obligation, but the White Sox will have a PR dilemma if he chooses not to retire and they don't attempt to resign him.

If he wasn't completely abysmal this year, it might be. But he's done like dinner.

kittle42
08-22-2013, 09:09 PM
No one said we did have an obligation, but the White Sox will have a PR dilemma if he chooses not to retire and they don't attempt to resign him.

They didn't have one when Thomas left, or AJ, or Buehrle, and they won't have one now. Fans get over things (except Reinsdorf's role in the strike) quickly. Few people, I bet, are going to the park these days to see Paulie play.

doublem23
08-22-2013, 09:17 PM
No one said we did have an obligation, but the White Sox will have a PR dilemma if he chooses not to retire and they don't attempt to resign him.

Anybody who gets pissed off if the Sox let Paulie walk can just turn their fan card in right meow

doublem23
08-22-2013, 09:18 PM
They didn't have one when Thomas left, or AJ, or Buehrle, and they won't have one now. Fans get over things (except Reinsdorf's role in the strike) quickly. Few people, I bet, are going to the park these days to see Paulie play.

Also, what Eddie Einhorn said about the Sox being Chicago's American League team 30 ****ing years ago

Noneck
08-22-2013, 09:20 PM
Also, what Eddie Einhorn said about the Sox being Chicago's American League team 30 ****ing years ago


The threatened move to the sunshine state also.

mzh
08-22-2013, 09:26 PM
They didn't have one when Thomas left, or AJ, or Buehrle, and they won't have one now. Fans get over things (except Reinsdorf's role in the strike) quickly. Few people, I bet, are going to the park these days to see Paulie play.
I don't know what you remember, but Frank's exit was nothing short of a PR disaster, further compounded by his MVP caliber 2006. I also seem to recall quite a few people (myself included) having a conniption when Buehrle was allowed to walk.

Now, these were alleviated by the fact that Thome was immediately brought in in November of 2005, and that the Buehrle money went to locking up Danks (a popular move at the time). If the Sox are able to shift Viciedo to first or DH and bring in a legitimate corner outfielder, or spend money on a suitable replacement (the Abreu kid from Cuba comes to mind), I can see the majority of White Sox fandom letting PK go with grace. However, if we end up with Jordan Danks in Left Field next year as PK goes elsewhere, I suspect there may be some rumblings of discontent.

That's me playing devils advocate. I think now is about the right time to gracefully conclude the Paul Konerko era of White Sox baseball, for whatever the greater body of fans think. There does, however, need to be a suitable replacement ready. This team may not be going anywhere next year, but I'd still rather watch PK post a .660 OPS than Lars Anderson.

Hitmen77
08-23-2013, 07:50 AM
I really hope Dunn continues to do well as the Sox may be able to get something of value for him this offseason. Since the Sox won't be contending next year, it really isn't worth it to have him around next year.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I'm for trading him if we get something of value in return. He's looking good now, but he's also looked brutal most of his time with the Sox. Which Dunn will show up next spring, the one hitting close to his career norms now or the one who is hitting for a historically bad average? Even if he continues to hit like this through next season, it might mean the difference between 3rd and 4th place for us.

asindc
08-23-2013, 07:54 AM
I don't know what you remember, but Frank's exit was nothing short of a PR disaster, further compounded by his MVP caliber 2006. I also seem to recall quite a few people (myself included) having a conniption when Buehrle was allowed to walk.

Now, these were alleviated by the fact that Thome was immediately brought in in November of 2005, and that the Buehrle money went to locking up Danks (a popular move at the time). If the Sox are able to shift Viciedo to first or DH and bring in a legitimate corner outfielder, or spend money on a suitable replacement (the Abreu kid from Cuba comes to mind), I can see the majority of White Sox fandom letting PK go with grace. However, if we end up with Jordan Danks in Left Field next year as PK goes elsewhere, I suspect there may be some rumblings of discontent.

That's me playing devils advocate. I think now is about the right time to gracefully conclude the Paul Konerko era of White Sox baseball, for whatever the greater body of fans think. There does, however, need to be a suitable replacement ready. This team may not be going anywhere next year, but I'd still rather watch PK post a .660 OPS than Lars Anderson.

At what cost?

TaylorStSox
08-23-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't know what you remember, but Frank's exit was nothing short of a PR disaster, further compounded by his MVP caliber 2006. I also seem to recall quite a few people (myself included) having a conniption when Buehrle was allowed to walk.

Now, these were alleviated by the fact that Thome was immediately brought in in November of 2005, and that the Buehrle money went to locking up Danks (a popular move at the time). If the Sox are able to shift Viciedo to first or DH and bring in a legitimate corner outfielder, or spend money on a suitable replacement (the Abreu kid from Cuba comes to mind), I can see the majority of White Sox fandom letting PK go with grace. However, if we end up with Jordan Danks in Left Field next year as PK goes elsewhere, I suspect there may be some rumblings of discontent.

That's me playing devils advocate. I think now is about the right time to gracefully conclude the Paul Konerko era of White Sox baseball, for whatever the greater body of fans think. There does, however, need to be a suitable replacement ready. This team may not be going anywhere next year, but I'd still rather watch PK post a .660 OPS than Lars Anderson.
Holy hyperbole Sox fan.

kittle42
08-23-2013, 10:04 AM
Holy hyperbole Sox fan.

No kidding. We root for laundry. Did people suddenly stop going to Mariners games when Ichiro or Griffey left?

voodoochile
08-23-2013, 10:19 AM
People wanted the Sox to match or beat the Mariners' offer? Really? WOW! I am shocked. I have a huge mancrush on Burlymon from the time he spent on the Southside, but that contract was nuts...

mzh
08-23-2013, 01:26 PM
Holy hyperbole Sox fan.

No kidding. We root for laundry. Did people suddenly stop going to Mariners games when Ichiro or Griffey left?

People wanted the Sox to match or beat the Mariners' offer? Really? WOW! I am shocked. I have a huge mancrush on Burlymon from the time he spent on the Southside, but that contract was nuts...
Like I said, just playing devils advocate. I don't disagree with any of you. I happen to know a few 'fans' who decided that the team wasn't worth their time after Frank and Buehrle were allowed to walk. Some people are dumber than we give them credit for.

JB98
08-23-2013, 01:29 PM
No one said we did have an obligation, but the White Sox will have a PR dilemma if he chooses not to retire and they don't attempt to resign him.

No dilemma at all in my world. Konerko should not be on the team in 2014. I hope he retires. I'd rather not see him in another uniform, but I don't believe in keeping people around for sentiment's sake.

TheVulture
08-23-2013, 02:26 PM
People wanted the Sox to match or beat the Mariners' offer? Really? WOW! I am shocked. I have a huge mancrush on Burlymon from the time he spent on the Southside, but that contract was nuts...


I'm not sure how Danks at 14.25/yr is reasonable, but 13.5/yr for Buerhle is nuts. We could have traded Danks for prospects and kept the superior pitcher.

TDog
08-23-2013, 03:15 PM
Also, what Eddie Einhorn said about the Sox being Chicago's American League team 30 ****ing years ago

That was in response to the Veeck promoting the team as the South Chicago White Sox. The full quote, at least the original one, probably makes that clear.

As much flak as the current ownership has taken over the years for its perceived treatment of the second Veeck group, when you talk to players and coaches who were around at the transition, you hear how much the White Sox operations improved with the current regime.

SephClone89
08-23-2013, 03:20 PM
That was in response to the Veeck promoting the team as the South Chicago White Sox. The full quote, at least the original one, probably makes that clear.

Someone should tell Lip about this.

SI1020
08-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Undercapitalized doesn't begin to describe the second Veeck ownership. He was operating on frayed shoestrings. It wouldn't have taken much to improve baseball operations. The new owners signed Fisk and Luzinski, expanded the promotional budget, and increased the number of scouts, among other things. It seems after the Sox fizzled in 84 there was a retrenchment that lasted until the team's future in Chicago was secured. I've stated over and over again that I consider the Reinsdorf era to have been a very mixed bag. Believe me they earned a lot of the bad feelings they engendered over the years. It helps to have been around for the duration to have a proper and fair perspective. There seems to me to be a dichotomy among younger and older Sox fans when it comes to evaluating the Reinsdorf ownership's legacy.

voodoochile
08-23-2013, 04:07 PM
I'm not sure how Danks at 14.25/yr is reasonable, but 13.5/yr for Buerhle is nuts. We could have traded Danks for prospects and kept the superior pitcher.

Age for starters. Danks is/was entering the prime of his career. Buehrle is nearing the end.

However, I never actually mentioned Danks, I merely said I thought Buehrle's contract was unreasonable.

kittle42
08-23-2013, 04:18 PM
I'm not sure how Danks at 14.25/yr is reasonable, but 13.5/yr for Buerhle is nuts. We could have traded Danks for prospects and kept the superior pitcher.

Buehrle's stats this year back in the AL are far from dazzling. But yeah, Danks ended up a poor decision thus far.

SI1020
08-23-2013, 04:54 PM
Buehrle's stats this year back in the AL are far from dazzling. But yeah, Danks ended up a poor decision thus far. After getting shelled on May 6 by the Rays his ERA was 7.02. It is now at 4.23. I'm not saying the Sox should have kept Buehrle, just that it might be premature to write him off. He may still have a few decent years left in him.

TDog
08-23-2013, 10:15 PM
Undercapitalized doesn't begin to describe the second Veeck ownership. He was operating on frayed shoestrings. It wouldn't have taken much to improve baseball operations. The new owners signed Fisk and Luzinski, expanded the promotional budget, and increased the number of scouts, among other things. It seems after the Sox fizzled in 84 there was a retrenchment that lasted until the team's future in Chicago was secured. I've stated over and over again that I consider the Reinsdorf era to have been a very mixed bag. Believe me they earned a lot of the bad feelings they engendered over the years. It helps to have been around for the duration to have a proper and fair perspective. There seems to me to be a dichotomy among younger and older Sox fans when it comes to evaluating the Reinsdorf ownership's legacy.

It should be noted that the "retrenchment" years were the collusion years, according to legal penalties and settlements anyway. Owners across baseball agreed to go cheap. The Sox re-signed Fisk during that period but no one else but the Royals offered him a contract. As the story goes, it wasn't better than the White Sox were offering. During that period, the Cubs got Andre Dawson for a base salary of half of what the Expos paid him the year before. Dawson reportedly went to the Cubs because no one was offering him a free-agent contract.

voodoochile
08-23-2013, 10:44 PM
It should be noted that the "retrenchment" years were the collusion years, according to legal penalties and settlements anyway. Owners across baseball agreed to go cheap. The Sox re-signed Fisk during that period but no one else but the Royals offered him a contract. As the story goes, it wasn't better than the White Sox were offering. During that period, the Cubs got Andre Dawson for a base salary of half of what the Expos paid him the year before. Dawson reportedly went to the Cubs because no one was offering him a free-agent contract.

The flubbies weren't even going to sign him. Then Dawson said, "I'll sign a blank contract. Fill in what you think I'm worth." The flubbies were stuffed. If they didn't sign him they basically proved collusion all by themselves.

amsteel
08-24-2013, 11:07 AM
I don't think the issue with MB was his ability going forward, it was other team's offering him 54$M for 4 years. He ain't that good.

MISoxfan
08-24-2013, 11:22 AM
Buehrle's stats this year back in the AL are far from dazzling. But yeah, Danks ended up a poor decision thus far.

Buehrle was terrible for his first 9 starts this season going 1-3 with a 6.33 ERA, but since May 22nd he's 8-4 with a 3.19 ERA. Of course, you can't just erase the first 6 weeks of the season.

34rancher
08-24-2013, 11:43 AM
I don't think the issue with MB was his ability going forward, it was other team's offering him 54$M for 4 years. He ain't that good.

I agree that was a lot for MB and I was happy for him that he got it. But, I would rather have given him that money than Dunn and guaranteeing no playoffs for 4 years. Adam Dunn has never, not will he ever help a team to a playoff spot. Can't handle the pressure when it matters and has the absolute laziest off season attitude. He's a bum and is not worth it if winning championships is something that matters to a team.

Hitmen77
08-26-2013, 10:35 AM
After getting shelled on May 6 by the Rays his ERA was 7.02. It is now at 4.23. I'm not saying the Sox should have kept Buehrle, just that it might be premature to write him off. He may still have a few decent years left in him.

Mark is quietly putting together a solid season after a rough start.

I think the question of whether the Sox should have kept Buehrle instead of extending Danks is a legitimate one. But, I can see why they chose Danks. He's something like 6 years younger than Buehrle. MB might be making less than Danks this year, but he's going to make $18M next year and $19M in 2015. I think there was no way in hell JR was going to commit that much to a pitcher who will be in his mid 30s at that point.

doublem23
08-26-2013, 10:54 AM
Mark is quietly putting together a solid season after a rough start.

I think the question of whether the Sox should have kept Buehrle instead of extending Danks is a legitimate one. But, I can see why they chose Danks. He's something like 6 years younger than Buehrle. MB might be making less than Danks this year, but he's going to make $18M next year and $19M in 2015. I think there was no way in hell JR was going to commit that much to a pitcher who will be in his mid 30s at that point.

Yeah, the decision to let Buehrle walk centered around the Marlins' ridiculously lavish contract offer that they clearly had no intention of seeing to the end.

Golden Sox
08-28-2013, 10:05 AM
I was told a few weeks ago by somebody who works for the White Sox that Dunn won't be on the White Sox in 2014. He called Dunn poison. That being said I was hoping that Dunn would be gone to some contender before the 2013 season was over. Its almost August 31st and it doesn't look like Dunn is going to be moved. It doesn't seem like these contenders want Dunn. The Pirates just picked up Byrd. The Rangers who seem to have a major hole at DH don't want Dunn either. I read somewhere that the Rangers plan on on using Nelson Cruz as there DH in the 2013 playoffs. I'm beginning to wonder if the White Sox are going to get stuck with Dunn for the 2014 season. Dave Schuester of the SCORE has said on the radio that Dunn has told him he intends to keep playing after his contract is up after the 2014 season. If that is the case I hope he doesn't sign another contract with the White Sox.

TaylorStSox
08-28-2013, 10:33 AM
I was told a few weeks ago by somebody who works for the White Sox that Dunn won't be on the White Sox in 2014. He called Dunn poison. That being said I was hoping that Dunn would be gone to some contender before the 2013 season was over. Its almost August 31st and it doesn't look like Dunn is going to be moved. It doesn't seem like these contenders want Dunn. The Pirates just picked up Byrd. The Rangers who seem to have a major hole at DH don't want Dunn either. I read somewhere that the Rangers plan on on using Nelson Cruz as there DH in the 2013 playoffs. I'm beginning to wonder if the White Sox are going to get stuck with Dunn for the 2014 season. Dave Schuester of the SCORE has said on the radio that Dunn has told him he intends to keep plying after his contract is up after the 2014 season. If that is the case I hope he doesn't sign another contract with the White Sox.

Honestly, I just flat out don't believe you.

doublem23
08-28-2013, 10:57 AM
Honestly, I just flat out don't believe you.

This is the same poster who once posted that he knew someone who worked for Macy's that said they were going to close the State Street store on Saturdays, so take it with a grain of salt.

voodoochile
08-28-2013, 11:00 AM
About Dunn going the other way more.

In the article they list his stats since 6/8: .299, 17 HR, 48 RBI, 40 BB

Noneck
08-28-2013, 11:34 AM
About Dunn going the other way more.

In the article they list his stats since 6/8: .299, 17 HR, 48 RBI, 40 BB

And he is available for a month of this years salary and all of next. Not a sniff by 29 clubs. That should tell everyone his worth.

Mr. Jinx
08-28-2013, 12:28 PM
Honestly, I just flat out don't believe you.

I'll only believe it if the guy called him Adam Done.

hawkjt
08-28-2013, 12:41 PM
Honestly, I just flat out don't believe you.


I agree. ''Poison''? That is a very damning description, and from all appearances, he is a solid clubhouse guy.

kittle42
08-28-2013, 01:12 PM
I was told a few weeks ago by somebody who works for the White Sox that Dunn won't be on the White Sox in 2014. He called Dunn poison. That being said I was hoping that Dunn would be gone to some contender before the 2013 season was over. Its almost August 31st and it doesn't look like Dunn is going to be moved. It doesn't seem like these contenders want Dunn. The Pirates just picked up Byrd. The Rangers who seem to have a major hole at DH don't want Dunn either. I read somewhere that the Rangers plan on on using Nelson Cruz as there DH in the 2013 playoffs. I'm beginning to wonder if the White Sox are going to get stuck with Dunn for the 2014 season. Dave Schuester of the SCORE has said on the radio that Dunn has told him he intends to keep playing after his contract is up after the 2014 season. If that is the case I hope he doesn't sign another contract with the White Sox.

This all reeks of bull****, except that he will keep playing after his contract expires because, oh, I don't know, HE'S ONLY 33?

Whom did you talk to? Southpaw, a member of the Chevrolet Pride Crew or the bartender at Bacardi at the Park?

Noneck
08-28-2013, 01:16 PM
This all reeks of bull****, except that he will keep playing after his contract expires because, oh, I don't know, HE'S ONLY 33?

And he will end up with 500+ HRs.

Rocky Soprano
08-28-2013, 01:33 PM
Whom did you talk to? Southpaw, a member of the Chevrolet Pride Crew or the bartender at Bacardi at the Park?

It was the soft spoken hot dog vendor.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-28-2013, 02:09 PM
She's switched product. At least, last time I was there she was selling ice cream.

kobo
08-28-2013, 02:12 PM
And he is available for a month of this years salary and all of next. Not a sniff by 29 clubs. That should tell everyone his worth.
It tells me no one wants to take on his salary for the rest of this year and next year. This says NOTHING about what could happen this winter or next season. We also have no idea if some club inquired about Dunn at the trade deadline or not. Not every inquiry or move is published by the media.

Rocky Soprano
08-28-2013, 02:16 PM
She's switched product. At least, last time I was there she was selling ice cream.

Love how you did that. :D:

SephClone89
08-28-2013, 02:40 PM
I'll only believe it if the guy called him Adam Done.

Aaaand boom goes the dynamite.

Noneck
08-28-2013, 02:56 PM
It tells me no one wants to take on his salary for the rest of this year and next year. This says NOTHING about what could happen this winter or next season. We also have no idea if some club inquired about Dunn at the trade deadline or not. Not every inquiry or move is published by the media.


Hes not worth his salary, no one will take him unless the Sox salt and pepper part of his salary. In order for the Sox to get anything in return a large portion of his salary will have to be eaten. Basically he is worthless.

Goose
08-28-2013, 03:27 PM
Hes not worth his salary, no one will take him unless the Sox salt and pepper part of his salary. In order for the Sox to get anything in return a large portion of his salary will have to be eaten. Basically he is worthless.

So why not pay a good chunk of it (which you will have to do anyway) and get something of value (prospect) for him? There is value there. Keeping him on this team next year is worthless to the Sox.

Noneck
08-28-2013, 04:13 PM
So why not pay a good chunk of it (which you will have to do anyway) and get something of value (prospect) for him? There is value there. Keeping him on this team next year is worthless to the Sox.

If they can get a decent prospect, I agree but you would figure that teams in the hunt at this time of year would be more desperate than a team starting next year. If the Sox dont want him for next year why would other teams?

Tragg
08-28-2013, 11:56 PM
Hes not worth his salary, no one will take him unless the Sox salt and pepper part of his salary. In order for the Sox to get anything in return a large portion of his salary will have to be eaten. Basically he is worthless.

Hopefully they'll be willing to eat half that salary. We need a fresh start.