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chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 03:28 PM
Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.

Players with higher WAR not in HOF.
1. Roger Clemens 139.4.....May take awhile to get in
2. Greg Maddux 104.6....might recieve highest votes ever
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.
4. Pedro Martinez 86.0.....first ballot
5. Mike Mussina 82.7....He will get in easily
6. Curt chilling 80.7.....might be this era's Blylevin, he'll get in though
7. Jim McCormik 75.5....someday he'll get in. 19th century guys often get overlooked.
8. Tom Glavine 74.0....he'll get in
9. Kevin Brown 68.5....Steroids will keep him out
10. Rick Reuschel 68.2.....Hopefully Buehrle isn't classed with him.
11. John Smoltz 66.5....He'll get in easily
12. Luis Tiant 66.1.....I think eventualy he'll get in. His era hurts him a bit.
13. Roy Halladay 66.5......He will get in easily
14. Tommy John 62.3....He might get in but 26 seasons with no major accomplishments will likely keep him out for awhile.
15. Bobby Mathews 62.2....He should be in but he's another 19th century guy.
16. David Cone 61.7.....i'm torn on him but I doubt he gets in.
17. Tommy Bond 61.0.....19th century pitcher.
18. Charlie Buffington 60.6....19th century pitcher
19. Tony Mullane 60.2.....19th century pitcher
20. Bret Saberhagen 59.1.....he could have supporters someday. comparable to Billy Pierce.
21. Jack Quinn 59.0....He won't be getting in anytime soon, if ever.
22. Chuck Finley 58.5....I don't think he has a chance.
23. Andy Pettite 58.4.....steroids will haunt him.
24. Frank Tanana 57.5.....Good career but falls short.
25. Jerry Koosman 57.1....good pitcher but he won't get in.
26. Dave Stieb 57.0.....very underrated but he won't get in.
27. Eddie Cicotte 56.9...Blacksox scandel cost him a Hall of Fame career.
28. Jack Powell 56.0....he's just a forgotten player. Interesting player though.
29. Mariano Rivera 55.6.....Easy Hall of Famer
30. Tim Hudson 55.4......This injury may cost him.
31. Kevin Appier 55.1....He might have gotten motre attention if he pitched somewhere else.
32. Urban Shocker 54.8...played in New York, he's got a better chance than alot of guys for that reason.
33. Mark Buehrle 54.4..if he can somehow get 10.0 more WAR he will be in some pretty good company. He passed Sabathia last night and could possibly move past Hudson before the year ends
34. CC Sabathia 54.2....I think he's got a good chance if his arm idn't dead. He looks horrible this year.
......................................
Hall of Fame players with lower WAR.
Whitey Ford 53.9....hofer but Yankees easily made him look better.
Waite Hoyt 53.3.....Yankees made him a hofer.
Sandy Koufax 53.2....obviously he's better.....easily a hofer.
Al Spalding 52.2.....short career but very good career.
Early Wynn 51.6...300 game winner.....hofer but only because he won 300.
Hoyt Wilhelm 50.1.....easily the second best relief pitcher,,easy hofer
Burleigh Grimes 46.9....He's very borderline.
Addie Joss 45.9....Short career, Sandy Koufax type of career.
Herb Pennock 44.1....I'm surprised he got in so early but he's a decent hofer.
Chief Bender 44.0....had some good years, a little overrated but i'd say he deserves to be in.
Lefty Gomez 43.1....another Yankee pitcher but he's a decent hofer.
Dizzy Dean 42.7.....short career but his popularity makes him a strong choice.
Rich Gossage 41.8....I say no but he was better than Sutter and Fingers.
Jack Chesbro 41.2....I don't think he is. (Yankee pitcher)
Candy Cummings 38.5....Innovator, invented curveball.
Bob Lemon 37.5....surprised he had such a low career war. Very good pitcher from the 1950's.
Catfish Hunter 36.6....Teams he played for really helped his win total. Makes me wonder what Rick Reuschel would have done had he pitched for Oakland and New York in his prime.
Jesse Haines 35.7....Frankie Frich pick...Not a hofer
Rube Marquard 34.2...Frankie Frisch pick also.
Monte Ward 28.4....19th century guy. maybe the 10th best 19th century pitcher.
Rollie Fingers 25.0......I don't think he is compared to other closers. Sparky Lyle and Kent Tekulve were just as good.
Bruce Sutter 24.5....I think he's another horrible choice.
Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

soxfanreggie
08-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.


Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

Randy Johnson will be a first ballot but he wont get the votes Maddux gets. There will be voters who penalize him. I don't want to get into a steroid debate though. The voters don't seem to care if there's hard core proof or not.

Regarding Ruth, I just wonder what type of career he would have had if he was purely a pitcher. Obviously they made the right choice in converting him to a hitter.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 04:25 PM
The way I look at it, was there any time in Mark's career when you ever thought he was a top 5 or even top 10 pitcher in the league? Very good, very consistent pitcher for a long long time, but only Sox hall of fame worthy.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 04:52 PM
The saber stat guys are saying that 70.0 plus war is automatic for the Hall of Fame and I agree, i've always thought of Buehrle as a good pitcher nothing great but it's hard to ignore a career if he does reach 64 or 65.0 career war. More than likely if he does reach 65 war, he will be remembered like Rick Reucshel.

I made a mistake on Mark Buehrle's carer war too. He's at 54.1.

SoxFanCPA
08-11-2013, 05:08 PM
No.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 05:15 PM
Hall of Fame pitchers within reach.

1. Stan Coveleski 65.2....strong hofer
2. Bob Feller 65.2...easy hofer, obviously would have been better if not for WWII. Feller did claim that the war probably saved his arm though.
3. Mickey Welch 63.8.....strong hofer
4. Ed Walsh 63.2......strong hofer
5. Dennis Eckersley 62.5.....gets alot of help from being a starter. still he's a good hof player.
6. Dazzy Vance 62.5......strong hofer
7. Juan Marichal 61.9......strong hofer
8. Don Drysdale 61.2...strong hofer
9. Rube Wadell 61.0......strong hofer
10. Joe McGinnity 60.4....some think he's a bit overrated but he's a strong hofer.
11. Hal Newhouser 60.4....gets picked on due to pitching in a watered down league during WWII but stats show the leagues really weren't watered down as some may think. Strong hofer
12. Clark Griffith 57.7....19th century guy
13. Eppa Rixey 56. 8.....he's a bit weak
14. Red Ruffing 55.4...another weak pick (Yankee pitcher.
.......................................
Mark Buehrle 54.1

Alot of these guys especially Marichal and Drysdale had great peaks and declined sharply or had thier careers cut short to various reasons. Mark Buehrle never had a great peak but he's at least stayed consistent. Maybe slow and steady will get him in.

amsteel
08-11-2013, 05:50 PM
Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 05:58 PM
Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

Which is idiotic, but completely true.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 06:33 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 06:41 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

1) Meaningless. Did you suspect Pablo Ozuna of using steroids? Did you suspect Fernando Vina? Andy Petite doesn't exactly scream user but he was too.

2) Also meaningless. They don't award hall votes for being a team with almost a century of futility.

3) Those definitely will. Very few have done that.

4) Probably doesn't mean a lot as it isn't really a "stat" that so many voters look for.

5) Was Mark really a big saber guy? He led the league in hits given up a few times. I'm not a saber guy myself but wouldn't that work against him?

eastchicagosoxfan
08-11-2013, 06:48 PM
A HOF player should have a career and the stats that jump out at you. Buehrle's had neither. Buehrle can't even point to a monster season. Unfortunately, the various Veteran's Committees really brought in a lot of guys that watered down the HOF. Mark needs to have his career peak after the age of 35 to receive serious consideration. If he wants to take the Bert Blyleven route, he needs to win 100 more games. He's won 13 each of the last four seasons. He might win 13 this year.

WLL1855
08-11-2013, 07:00 PM
Mark's a guy in the mold of Jaime Moyer. Solid player but unexceptional career. He could probably play into his 40's but won't want to.

No. He won't be inducted in the Hall.

Railsplitter
08-11-2013, 09:27 PM
Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

The Babe was playing in the outfield in 1918, but it was the WWI manpower shortage that contributed to that.

Milw
08-11-2013, 09:32 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

shes
08-11-2013, 09:56 PM
He'll have to rack up another 118 wins to get in. Somehow I don't see it happening.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:00 PM
1) Meaningless. Did you suspect Pablo Ozuna of using steroids? Did you suspect Fernando Vina? Andy Petite doesn't exactly scream user but he was too.

2) Also meaningless. They don't award hall votes for being a team with almost a century of futility.

3) Those definitely will. Very few have done that.

4) Probably doesn't mean a lot as it isn't really a "stat" that so many voters look for.

5) Was Mark really a big saber guy? He led the league in hits given up a few times. I'm not a saber guy myself but wouldn't that work against him?

I'm not a big saber guy either but his career era+ is actually pretty good compared to alot of Hall of Famers. I would have to look this up but how many pitchers since 1980 have had 12 consecutive 200 plus innings? He's got a good chance of making it 13 if he does it this year. I know he's not a Hall of Famer as we speak but if he puts up 3 more seasons of 200 plus innings and averages about 3.0 war then he has to be considered as a decent candidate. A strong peak would have helped him alot but theres not to many pitchers who have been as consistent as him with no baggage over the past 30 years.

It's a longshot that he will even pitch 200 innings for 3 more seasons but it's possible with the way he throws and 16 consecutive seasons of 200 innings especially in this era will not be overlooked.

I think the 2005 championship will play a part in some voters minds. Plus theres not too many WS teams that have no Hall of Fame or future Hall of Famers and as forgotten as the 2005 Whitesox are to alot of people in the country they are still a team thats going to be remembered for bringing Chicago it's first WS since 1917. ........Frank Thomas wasn't really a part of that team due to postseason. I know he played a part in the regular season though.

The Florida Marlins might be the only team that I can think of that won't have any Hall of Famers. The 2005 Whitesox could be another one but I find it hard to believe that nobody on that team will make it. Mark Buehrle is probably the best player to have any chance of making it.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:09 PM
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

Yeah I know he's a longshot and i'm using career war as a perspective and maybe thats a bad way of looking at him but looking at how war rates other hall of fame pitchers, war seems to get their careers right so why would Buehrle, if he ends up with a mid 60 war be a bad choice? He pitched in a tough AL Central, in a hitters ball park during a high powered offense era so of course his stats aren't going to look spectacular.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:11 PM
He'll have to rack up another 118 wins to get in. Somehow I don't see it happening.

I would say he needs 250 to be a automatic.

SoxFanCPA
08-11-2013, 10:13 PM
I would say he needs 250 to be a automatic.

He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

SBSoxFan
08-11-2013, 10:15 PM
The way I look at it, was there any time in Mark's career when you ever thought he was a top 5 or even top 10 pitcher in the league? Very good, very consistent pitcher for a long long time, but only Sox hall of fame worthy.

Maybe 2001, 2002, and 2005.

A HOF player should have a career and the stats that jump out at you. Buehrle's had neither. Buehrle can't even point to a monster season. Unfortunately, the various Veteran's Committees really brought in a lot of guys that watered down the HOF. Mark needs to have his career peak after the age of 35 to receive serious consideration. If he wants to take the Bert Blyleven route, he needs to win 100 more games. He's won 13 each of the last four seasons. He might win 13 this year.

He might win 13, but he'd need to go on a good run. He's currently 8-7.

I'm not a big saber guy either but his career era+ is actually pretty good compared to alot of Hall of Famers. I would have to look this up but how many pitchers since 1980 have had 12 consecutive 200 plus innings? He's got a good chance of making it 13 if he does it this year. I know he's not a Hall of Famer as we speak but if he puts up 3 more seasons of 200 plus innings and averages about 3.0 war then he has to be considered as a decent candidate. A strong peak would have helped him alot but theres not to many pitchers who have been as consistent as him with no baggage over the past 30 years.

It's a longshot that he will even pitch 200 innings for 3 more seasons but it's possible with the way he throws and 16 consecutive seasons of 200 innings especially in this era will not be overlooked.

I think the 2005 championship will play a part in some voters minds. Plus theres not too many WS teams that have no Hall of Fame or future Hall of Famers and as forgotten as the 2005 Whitesox are to alot of people in the country they are still a team thats going to be remembered for bringing Chicago it's first WS since 1917. ........Frank Thomas wasn't really a part of that team due to postseason. I know he played a part in the regular season though.

The Florida Marlins might be the only team that I can think of that won't have any Hall of Famers. The 2005 Whitesox could be another one but I find it hard to believe that nobody on that team will make it. Mark Buehrle is probably the best player to have any chance of making it.

I'd say he has a great chance of making it 13 in a row if he pitches 200 innings this year. :tongue:

With the Sox demise this year, probably the one baseball item I'm most interested in is seeing whether Buehrle once again wins 10+ games and pitches over 200 innings. He should easily get to 10 wins, needing only 2 more wins, but he will need to pitch about 50 more innings in ~8 starts.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2013, 05:36 AM
Mark might get in if he gets to 200 wins +, the perfect game and the other no hitter will help. With pitchers starting less games every year, 200 wins might be the new 300. In fact I don't know if we will ever see another 300 game winner in MLB. With pitchers starting every 5 games it's tough to get to 300 wins. Another reason is pitchers are pulled after 100 pitches, so say in a tie game where they might have a chance to win, most of the time they are taken out of the game because of pitch count.

If any White sox pitcher belongs in the HOF, its Billy Pierce.
All this WAR stuff and other stats except for W-L and ERA have to take a back seat to how a player performed in his era. Pierce was one of the top pitchers in the 50s, he started 2 All-Star games and made 7 All Star teams. He won 20 games twice. in my mind only Warren Spahn and Robin Roberts were better in that era. I don't think Whitey Ford was better, put Pierce on the Yankees and Ford on the White Sox and Billy is in the HOF as we speak.

Noneck
08-12-2013, 08:16 AM
Mark might get in if he gets to 200 wins +, the perfect game and the other no hitter will help. With pitchers starting less games every year, 200 wins might be the new 300. In fact I don't know if we will ever see another 300 game winner in MLB. With pitchers starting every 5 games it's tough to get to 300 wins. Another reason is pitchers are pulled after 100 pitches, so say in a tie game where they might have a chance to win, most of the time they are taken out of the game because of pitch count.

If any White sox pitcher belongs in the HOF, its Billy Pierce.
All this WAR stuff and other stats except for W-L and ERA have to take a back seat to how a player performed in his era. Pierce was one of the top pitchers in the 50s, he started 2 All-Star games and made 7 All Star teams. He won 20 games twice. in my mind only Warren Spahn and Robin Roberts were better in that era. I don't think Whitey Ford was better, put Pierce on the Yankees and Ford on the White Sox and Billy is in the HOF as we speak.


Im with you all the way on this. I guess Buehrle has a chance if he pitches many more years, gets a lot more wins, sniffs a couple cy youngs and makes more all star teams. Pierce deserves it now, yesterday and did 40 years ago. Billy is such a nice guy, it would be so great if he could get in while he is still with us so he could enjoy it.

BainesHOF
08-12-2013, 09:38 AM
The only chance Buehrle has to get into the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket.

To say the only reason Early Wynn got into the HOF because he won 300 games is like saying the only reason Neil Armstrong was an astronaut is because he walked on the moon.

Golden Sox
08-12-2013, 09:42 AM
It has amazed me as to who has been elected to the MLB HOF in my lifetime. I NEVER thought Walter O'Malley, Bill Veeck and Ron Santo would be inducted into the HOF. It's almost as if these baseball historians have reinvented history. I can see how Veeck got inducted, he was liked by the media. That wasn't the case with O'Malley and Santo. Billy Pierce was a better pitcher than Mark Buehrle and he's not in the HOF. Unless Buehrle has a tremendous finish to his career, I can't see him being inducted.

socko82
08-12-2013, 09:43 AM
I love Buehrle as much as every other Sox fan on this board but there's no way he's a HOF'er. He's a compiler, give him credit, he's stayed healthy, been a good teammate and been constinent but that doesn't get you in the HOF. In my opinion, David Cone had a better career than Mark including a Cy Young award and a perfect game and even with the east coast media behind him he was dropped from the ballot after one year. Another thing to consider is with the steroid guys backing up, ballots are going to be split and the guys who vote for the steroid guys are not going to have room on their ballots for the fringe candidates.

Also, I don't think Mussina gets in "easily". Maybe eventually it's gonna take a while.

Hitmen77
08-12-2013, 09:44 AM
He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

tstrike2000
08-12-2013, 09:45 AM
Mark's a great guy and pitcher but not HOF worthy. He's one ex-player that could possibly make a good addition to our coaching staff.

DSpivack
08-12-2013, 10:00 AM
Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

I agree. He and Konerko are similar in that regard.

Foulke You
08-12-2013, 10:29 AM
I love the guy but unless Mark puts together a bunch of all star seasons in his twilight years, he is not getting in. Buehrle's post career honor will likely be having his #56 retired by the White Sox. If he retired today, he has had a fine career but I don't see him going to the Hall.

Boondock Saint
08-12-2013, 10:55 AM
I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

Danryan
08-12-2013, 11:04 AM
Mark is great, but no HOF.

TDog
08-12-2013, 01:11 PM
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

Mr. Jinx
08-12-2013, 01:40 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.


What the hell are you talking about?

Foulke You
08-12-2013, 02:00 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.
Ummmmm...what?! :?:

doublem23
08-12-2013, 03:11 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

Huisj
08-12-2013, 03:34 PM
Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

By what measure? I'm not sure how you can rate 202 IP with a slightly better than league average ERA in the NL over what he did in 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2008, and really even 2009 and 2011. Just because his WHIP was a little lower from a lower BABIP? Because his K's jumped? Those can be used as arguments I suppose, but the overall results don't point to those being better seasons than many of his years in Chicago.

TDog
08-12-2013, 04:41 PM
Ummmmm...what?! :?:

Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

Domeshot17
08-12-2013, 04:48 PM
I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.

lpneck
08-12-2013, 09:51 PM
Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

The bolded section sounds like KingXerxes doing a Farmio impression.

In all seriousness, your original statement was that "the White Sox fan base doesn't show their players the kind of respect that fans in other cities show their players."

I just don't buy that at all. I can't think of ANY former Sox player who has been treated badly returning to Chicago with maybe the exception of Sammy Sosa. Thomas, Crede, Thome, Rowand- all received standing ovations while PLAYING for other teams.

Adam Dunn, who is one of the worst 3 free agent signings in franchise history, gets treated pretty much with indifference from fans in the ballpark. How would that .159 average in 2011 have gone over if he had played in New York, Boston, or Philadelphia?

I don't disagree that there's a lot of negativity surrounding the Sox right now (how could there not be?) But to believe that any of that is generally directed at a lack of respect for the players, and certainly former players, and WITHOUT QUESTION someone who was as successful in a Sox uniform as Mark Buehrle is flat out crazy. He will never have to pay for a drink in Chicago for the rest of his life.

That being said, it's probably even crazier to believe Mark Buehrle is a Hall of Fame caliber player

WhiteSox5187
08-12-2013, 10:13 PM
I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.


I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

chicagowhitesox1
08-12-2013, 10:22 PM
If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

DSpivack
08-12-2013, 11:11 PM
If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

Well, it ain't the Hall of Durability.

SouthSideMike
08-13-2013, 03:56 PM
From his page at Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml)

Hall Of Fame Statistics Player rank in ()

Black Ink Pitching - 8 (303), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 44 (310), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (102nd), 53.4 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/44.6 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS


He's not even close on any of those tests of HOF worthiness. Great player, one of my all time favorites, but nowhere near a HOF player.

ZombieRob
08-13-2013, 06:02 PM
Great White Sox..Good but not one of the great ones.

Foulke You
08-13-2013, 06:21 PM
Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.
I will agree that White Sox fans can be a bit cynical and also can be a group of fatalists, however, I've never felt our fans disrespect the players. If you play hard here and play well, White Sox fans are extremely loyal. Heck, sometimes all you have to do is play hard and not be that good to get our loyalty. (i.e. Aaron Rowand)

pythons007
08-13-2013, 06:56 PM
I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

chicagowhitesox1
08-15-2013, 09:19 PM
He beat Boston 2-1 tonight. He's up to 157 innings for the year now.

Zakath
08-23-2013, 10:43 PM
I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

That's the key number. He's still 67 wins from that, which, depending on where he's pitching (I don't think he stays in Toronto), could take 4-7 years. He could easily be 40 before he gets there.

TDog
08-24-2013, 12:09 AM
This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

But the pitchers who belong in the Hall of Fame (with the exception of the elite of the elite closers and the occasional Hoyt Wilhelm) are the ones that are picking up wins because they go so deep into their games. They aren't the ones that are missing out on wins because they are pulled after six.

SBSoxFan
08-25-2013, 05:39 PM
Buehrle won his 10th game today; that's 13 straight seasons with 10 or more wins. He needs to pitch 28 more innings to hit 200 IP for the 13th straight season.

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 07:56 PM
I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

doublem23
08-25-2013, 10:21 PM
I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 10:37 PM
They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

doublem23
08-25-2013, 10:48 PM
They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 10:53 PM
I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

I really have no idea how they calculate war but in his last start he pitched 6.2 innings and got.2 war and in todays game he went 8 innings and pitched a better game so i'm guesing he'll get at least .3 war.

Chez
08-26-2013, 10:31 AM
Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

kittle42
08-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

Exactly. Those thinking he is worthy of the Hall are just drinking the Sox fan kool-aid, but that's OK. We're Sox fans.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 11:17 AM
He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

kittle42
08-26-2013, 11:32 AM
He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

This won't do it, unless he turns into Greg Maddux for his last 7 years or so:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in ()

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink)Pitching - 9 (271), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink)Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor)Pitching - 44 (309), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standard)Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml) Starting Pitcher (100th) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml), 54.2 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/45.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS
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Scott Sanderson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sandesc01.shtml) (933)
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Mike Flanagan (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/flanami01.shtml) (919)
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Jimmy Key (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/keyji01.shtml) (917)
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chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:16 PM
This won't do it, unless he turns into Greg Maddux for his last 7 years or so:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in ()

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink)Pitching - 9 (271), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink)Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor)Pitching - 44 (309), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standard)Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml) Starting Pitcher (100th) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml), 54.2 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/45.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS
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I don't see how these guys are comparable to Mark Buehrle at all.
1. Bill Gullickson 98 era+ 14 seasons 23.9 war 0 allstars
2. Scott Sanderson 102 era+ 19 seasons 29.6 war 1 allstar
3. Frank Viola 112 era- 15 seasons 47.4 war 3 all stars
4. Paul Splittorff 101 era+ 15 seasons 22.8 war 0 allstars
5. John Burkett 99 era+ 15 seasons 21.6 war 2 allstars
6. Doug Drabek 101 era+ 13 seasons 27.8 war 1 allstar
7. Mike Flanagan 100 era + 18 seasons 26.0 war 1 allstar
8. Bob Forsch 98 era+ 16 seasons 19.1 war 0 allstars
9. Jimmy Key 122 era+ 15 seasons 49.4 war 4 allstars
10. Bartolo Colon 113 era+ 16 seasons 43.3 war 3 allstars... known ped user.
Mark Buehrle....118 era+ 14 seasons 54.9 war 4 allstars with years left to play.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:34 PM
Assuming Mark Buehrle reaches 200 innings this year, he will be in some pretty good company. Longest 200 innings streaks alltime.

1. Cy Young 19, HOF
2. Warren Spahn 17, HOF
3. Don Sutton 15, HOF
4. Gaylord Perry 15, HOF
5. Greg Maddux 14...he came 2 outs away from doing it 19 straight. HOF this year
6. Phil Niekro 14....1981 strike probably cost him 20 straight years. HOF
7. Christy Mathewson 14, HOF
8. Steve Carlton 13, HOF
9. Pud Galvin 13, HOF
10. Bobo Newsome 13, 51.7 war in 20 seasons. Buehrle is already at 54.9 in 14 seasons.
11. Kid Nichols 13, HOF
12. Eddie Plank 13, HOF
13. Jack Powell 13....a pitcher from the early 20th century. He gets mentioned for the hall of fame from some. 56.0 career war.
14. Red Ruffing 13, HOF
15. Tom Seaver 13, HOF
16. Vic Willis 13, HOF
17. Mark Buehrle 13 ???

The only other pitcher with a streak over 10 years, whose career ended after 1980 is Frank Viola with 10. If Buehrle reaches 15 straight seasons then it will be very hard to ignore him for the Hall of Fame.

SoxFanCPA
08-26-2013, 12:44 PM
:thud:


Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:51 PM
:thud:


Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

SoxFanCPA
08-26-2013, 12:55 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

You make my brain hurt.

Mr. Jinx
08-26-2013, 01:38 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 01:59 PM
He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

You are severely undervaluing Mark Buehrle if you actually believe this.. Five more seasons of 200 innings would put him around 230 wins and a 70 plus war. There is not one Hall of Famer pitcher with 70 plus war not in the Hall of Fame and you actually feel he won't even get 10 percent of the vote? He would probably be a first ballot if he had 5 more 200 inning seasons.

Mr. Jinx
08-26-2013, 07:28 PM
You are severely undervaluing Mark Buehrle if you actually believe this.. Five more seasons of 200 innings would put him around 230 wins and a 70 plus war. There is not one Hall of Famer pitcher with 70 plus war not in the Hall of Fame and you actually feel he won't even get 10 percent of the vote? He would probably be a first ballot if he had 5 more 200 inning seasons.

That's just ridiculous. WAR is an accumulating stat. Great for Mark for being good to very good forever. That's not HOF worthy and it isn't even close.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 09:03 PM
That's just ridiculous. WAR is an accumulating stat. Great for Mark for being good to very good forever. That's not HOF worthy and it isn't even close.

Then why is every pitcher with 70 plus war in the Hall of Fame? Buehrle gets somewhat forgotten because he was never a flashy player. This is somewhat interesting too.

These are seven generation of pitchers. Some pitchers overlapped a bit but I feel all of them are where they should be.

Generation1 1880's to 1890's
Cy Young HOF
Kid Nichols HOF
Tim Keefe HOF
John Clarkson HOF
Amos Rusie HOF
Old Hoss Radbourne HOF
Pud Galvin HOF
Mickey Welch HOF
Clark Griffith HOF

Generation 2 1900's to 1910's
Walter Johnson HOF
Christy Mathewson HOF
Pete Alexander HOF
Three Finger Brown HOF
Ed Walsh HOF
Eddie Plank HOF
Rube Waddell HOF
Addie Joss HOF
Chief Bender HOF
Joe McGinity HOF
Rube Marquard HOF
Jack Chesbro HOF
Vic Willis HOF

Generation 3 1920's to 1930's
Lefty Grove HOF
Carl Hubbell HOF
Dizzy Dean HOF
Dazzy Vance HOF
Ted Lyons HOF
Eppa Rixey HOF
Red Faber HOF
Stan Coveleski HOF
Red Ruffing HOF
Waite Hoyt HOF
Burleigh Grimes HOF
Lefty Gomez HOF
Herb Pennock HOF
Jesse Haines HOF

Generation 4 1940's to 1950's
Warren Spahn HOF
Robin Roberts HOF
Bob Feller HOF
Hal Newhouser HOF
Early Wynn HOF
Bob Lemon HOF
Whity Ford HOF
Satchel Paige HOF
Billy Pierce...Possible future Hall of Famer

Generation 5 1960's to 1970's
Tom Seaver HOF
Steve Carlton HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF
Gaylord Perry HOF
Phil Niekro HOF
Don Sutton HOF
Fergie Jenkins HOF
Bert Blyleven HOF
Jim Palmer HOF
Sandy Koufax HOF
Bob Gibson HOF
Don Drysdale HOF
Catfish Hunter HOF
Juan Marichal HOF
Jim Bunning HOF
................................
Generation 6 1980's to 1990's
Greg Maddux future HOF
Roger Clemens...He had a Hall of Fame career
Randy Johnson Future HOF
Pedro Martinez Future HOF
Mike Mussina Future HOF
Curt Schilling Future HOF
Tom Glavine Future HOF
John Smoltz Future HOF
Jack Morris..Gets consideration and Buehrle has had a better career.
David Cone...outside chance of making it.

Generation 7 2000's to current
Roy Halladay...He will get in
CC Sabathia....He's got a decent shot but he looks like he's slowing down.
Felix Hernandez...It's still to early to say but he's got a good chance
Justin Verlander...Same boat as Felix Hernandez
Tim Hudson....This injury may cost him
Roy Oswalt....I don't think he has a chance
Cliff Lee...He's got a outside chance if he stays healthy
Bartolo Colon...Even with a steroid deduction he has no chance.
Barry Zito...No chance
Matt Cain...Possibly but he's geting lit up pretty hard this year.
Jake Peavy...Too injury prone
Chris Carpenter....Too many injuries
Dan Haren....No chance
John Lackey....No chance
Clayton Kershaw...Very good chance
Chris Sale...Staring out good
Adam Waignwright....starting out good
Zack Grienke...I would be surprised if he had a long career
AJ Burnett...I would say Buehrle is better
Andy Pettite..steroid deduction
Johan Santana...he has a good argument on being better than Buehrle but he looks like he's finished.
Cole Hamels....Possibly but I doubt he keeps it up.
Jered Weaver...He's looking strong.
Stephen Strasburg...Has potential
Matt Harvey....Might be injury prone.
Tim Lincecum...He'll probably be a reliever soon which may help his chances.

Mark Buehrle will have a top 8 career out of these guys.

Each generation will produce at least 8 Hall of Famer pitchers. I don't see too many of Mark Buehrle's generation having better overall careers than him.

chicagowhitesox1
08-30-2013, 08:53 PM
Mark Buehrle pitched another nice game, throwing 7 shutout innings and beating a pretty tough Royals offense. He's up to 179 innings on the year and will probably bring his war up to around 55.2 which will put him ahead of Three Finger Brown and Kevin Appier. Next up is Tim Hudson at 55.3.

mzh
08-30-2013, 09:02 PM
While I don't think Buehrle is on a HOF level of dominance, there is something to be said for being very good for a very long time. If it gets to a point where he continues to put up 10-15 wins and 200 IP all the way through age 40, then I think the longevity factor deserves a much closer look.

Mr. Jinx
08-31-2013, 12:16 AM
Then why is every pitcher with 70 plus war in the Hall of Fame? Buehrle gets somewhat forgotten because he was never a flashy player. This is somewhat interesting too.

These are seven generation of pitchers. Some pitchers overlapped a bit but I feel all of them are where they should be.

Generation1 1880's to 1890's
Cy Young HOF
Kid Nichols HOF
Tim Keefe HOF
John Clarkson HOF
Amos Rusie HOF
Old Hoss Radbourne HOF
Pud Galvin HOF
Mickey Welch HOF
Clark Griffith HOF

Generation 2 1900's to 1910's
Walter Johnson HOF
Christy Mathewson HOF
Pete Alexander HOF
Three Finger Brown HOF
Ed Walsh HOF
Eddie Plank HOF
Rube Waddell HOF
Addie Joss HOF
Chief Bender HOF
Joe McGinity HOF
Rube Marquard HOF
Jack Chesbro HOF
Vic Willis HOF

Generation 3 1920's to 1930's
Lefty Grove HOF
Carl Hubbell HOF
Dizzy Dean HOF
Dazzy Vance HOF
Ted Lyons HOF
Eppa Rixey HOF
Red Faber HOF
Stan Coveleski HOF
Red Ruffing HOF
Waite Hoyt HOF
Burleigh Grimes HOF
Lefty Gomez HOF
Herb Pennock HOF
Jesse Haines HOF

Generation 4 1940's to 1950's
Warren Spahn HOF
Robin Roberts HOF
Bob Feller HOF
Hal Newhouser HOF
Early Wynn HOF
Bob Lemon HOF
Whity Ford HOF
Satchel Paige HOF
Billy Pierce...Possible future Hall of Famer

Generation 5 1960's to 1970's
Tom Seaver HOF
Steve Carlton HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF
Gaylord Perry HOF
Phil Niekro HOF
Don Sutton HOF
Fergie Jenkins HOF
Bert Blyleven HOF
Jim Palmer HOF
Sandy Koufax HOF
Bob Gibson HOF
Don Drysdale HOF
Catfish Hunter HOF
Juan Marichal HOF
Jim Bunning HOF
................................
Generation 6 1980's to 1990's
Greg Maddux future HOF
Roger Clemens...He had a Hall of Fame career
Randy Johnson Future HOF
Pedro Martinez Future HOF
Mike Mussina Future HOF
Curt Schilling Future HOF
Tom Glavine Future HOF
John Smoltz Future HOF
Jack Morris..Gets consideration and Buehrle has had a better career.
David Cone...outside chance of making it.

Generation 7 2000's to current
Roy Halladay...He will get in
CC Sabathia....He's got a decent shot but he looks like he's slowing down.
Felix Hernandez...It's still to early to say but he's got a good chance
Justin Verlander...Same boat as Felix Hernandez
Tim Hudson....This injury may cost him
Roy Oswalt....I don't think he has a chance
Cliff Lee...He's got a outside chance if he stays healthy
Bartolo Colon...Even with a steroid deduction he has no chance.
Barry Zito...No chance
Matt Cain...Possibly but he's geting lit up pretty hard this year.
Jake Peavy...Too injury prone
Chris Carpenter....Too many injuries
Dan Haren....No chance
John Lackey....No chance
Clayton Kershaw...Very good chance
Chris Sale...Staring out good
Adam Waignwright....starting out good
Zack Grienke...I would be surprised if he had a long career
AJ Burnett...I would say Buehrle is better
Andy Pettite..steroid deduction
Johan Santana...he has a good argument on being better than Buehrle but he looks like he's finished.
Cole Hamels....Possibly but I doubt he keeps it up.
Jered Weaver...He's looking strong.
Stephen Strasburg...Has potential
Matt Harvey....Might be injury prone.
Tim Lincecum...He'll probably be a reliever soon which may help his chances.

Mark Buehrle will have a top 8 career out of these guys.

Each generation will produce at least 8 Hall of Famer pitchers. I don't see too many of Mark Buehrle's generation having better overall careers than him.

Good luck with that thought process.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 01:46 AM
Good luck with that thought process.

I just find it kinda interesting where Buehrle stands among pitchers of this generation. Topps baseball cards have even added war to the back of thier baseball cards so that's gotta tell you that war is becoming a pretty big deal. It also wouldn't surprise me if Buehrle finishes with more career victorys than both Roy Halladay and CC Sabathia and I don't see anyone else winning more in the near future so some of these old school stats could work in his favor too. Like I said before, if Buehrle can maintain 200 innings for 3 or 4 more years, I find it hard to believe he won't be mentioned for The Hall of Fame.

insp
08-31-2013, 05:24 AM
MB does not belong in the HOF unless Billy Pierce gets in it first.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 09:29 AM
MB does not belong in the HOF unless Billy Pierce gets in it first.

Well Billy Pierce deserves to be in but Buehrle shouldn't be penalized for voters mistakes. Personally I think Pierce was better than every pitcher in his generation except for Spahn, Roberts, Feller and Paige.

Billy Pierce 18 seasons
211wins, 3.27era, 3306ip, 1999k, 119era+, 53.1war
Mark Buehrle 14 seasons
185wins, 3.83era, 2855ip, 1644k, 118era+,55.2war

I would say Buehrle and Pierce are pretty close. I think Pierce is a little better though. But again in 3 or 4 more years this might not be as close as it is now.

PaleHoser
08-31-2013, 05:43 PM
I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?

Brian26
08-31-2013, 07:37 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 08:08 PM
If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.

Especially in Buehrle's era. He's never been a top 5 pitcher but all of these top 5 pitchers have all fizzled out, Buehrle just keeps going. I agree with the poster who pointed out that he would never want a guy like Buehrle to start a big game but I sure would want a guy like Buehrle on my team for 16 or 17 years.

waldo_the_wolf
09-22-2013, 02:07 AM
Congratulations to Burls, he has now pitched 200 innings with double-digit wins in 13 straight years. Interestingly, he's become a lot more of a strikeout pitcher this year. And I agree that if he pitches another five or six years at his normal rate, he will probably get a few hall of fame votes but that's it.

chicagowhitesox1
09-18-2014, 03:51 AM
Assuming Mark Buehrle reaches 200 innings this year, he will be in some pretty good company. Longest 200 innings streaks alltime.

1. Cy Young 19, HOF
2. Warren Spahn 17, HOF
3. Don Sutton 15, HOF
4. Gaylord Perry 15, HOF
5. Greg Maddux 14...he came 2 outs away from doing it 19 straight. HOF this year
6. Phil Niekro 14....1981 strike probably cost him 20 straight years. HOF
7. Christy Mathewson 14, HOF
8. Steve Carlton 13, HOF
9. Pud Galvin 13, HOF
10. Bobo Newsome 13, 51.7 war in 20 seasons. Buehrle is already at 54.9 in 14 seasons.
11. Kid Nichols 13, HOF
12. Eddie Plank 13, HOF
13. Jack Powell 13....a pitcher from the early 20th century. He gets mentioned for the hall of fame from some. 56.0 career war.
14. Red Ruffing 13, HOF
15. Tom Seaver 13, HOF
16. Vic Willis 13, HOF
17. Mark Buehrle 13 ???

The only other pitcher with a streak over 10 years, whose career ended after 1980 is Frank Viola with 10. If Buehrle reaches 15 straight seasons then it will be very hard to ignore him for the Hall of Fame.

He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.

amsteel
09-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Impressive counting stats, pretty good, but not elite rate stats. Plus by the time they get around to voting on him I have a feeling people will be viewing HOF candidates more analytically, which won't do MB any favors.

kittle42
09-18-2014, 09:56 AM
Talk of this sure died down.

cards press box
09-18-2014, 12:03 PM
Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

The only chance Buehrle has to get into the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket.

To say the only reason Early Wynn got into the HOF because he won 300 games is like saying the only reason Neil Armstrong was an astronaut is because he walked on the moon.

Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

OK, I'll play contrarian here. For several reasons, Buehrle should be elected to the Hall Fame.

1. He is quite comparable to Whitey Ford and no one questions that Ford is an all-time great who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

For his 16 year career, Ford went 236-106 with a 2.75 ERA. Ford averaged 3.1 walks per 9 innings and 5.6 K's per 9 innings. During his career, Ford had Casey Stengel's Yankees behind him -- one of the best offensive and defensive teams that the game has ever seen. Ford also had the benefit of being a lefty pitching in cavernous old Yankee Stadium with an extraordinarily deep center field and left center field. Finally, Ford pitched the second half of his career in the 60's, a noted pitchers era.

For his ongoing 15 year career, Buehrle is 198-151 with a 3.82 ERA. Buehrle has averaged 2.0 walks per nine innings and 5.2 K's per nine innings. Buehrle didn't have the Yankees playing behind him, pitched in a hitter's paradise and pitched in and era with steroids and the DH. The biggest difference between Ford and Buehrle is the ERA and that difference is attributable to external factors.

2. Buehrle is an extraordinary fielder and will have a string of gold gloves when he retires.

3. Buehrle was a key pitcher on a world champion, the 2005 White Sox.

4. Buehrle is a five time all-star, most recently in 2014.

5. Buehrle has thrown a no-hitter and a perfect game. Know how many pitchers have done that? Six: Cy Young, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson and Mark Buehrle. Four are in the Hall of Fame (Young, Joss, Bunning and Koufax). One certainly will be (Johnson). That leaves Buerhle. He should join them in the Hall.


I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

Could not agree more. Pitchers, like Buehrle, who have excelled in a hitters' era with steroids, small ballparks, juiced balls, etc. shouldn't be punished because their statistics look different than those of pitchers from other eras.

Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.

amsteel
09-18-2014, 12:22 PM
Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.

OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.

kittle42
09-18-2014, 01:40 PM
OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.

Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.

Golden Sox
09-18-2014, 02:28 PM
Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.

SBSoxFan
09-18-2014, 05:04 PM
Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.

Except the Sox aren't going to want to add another lefty to their current rotation. Would you do an even swap Danks for Buehrle? Sure. I don't imagine Toronto would, however.

cards press box
09-22-2014, 11:46 AM
Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.

I disagree. To me, Buehrle is the modern day Whitey Ford. Adjust the ERA to reflect the different eras in which they pitched and Buehrle compares very favorably to Ford. When discussing whether Buehrle should be a Hall of Famer, Harold Reynolds of the MLB Network was quite impressed with the similarity between Buehrle and Ford and stated that it made him re-evaluate whether Buehrle should be in the Hall.

Buehrle's stats are also comparable to Jim Hunter, another Hall of Famer.

And the Ford and Hunter comparisons don't even take into account the fact that Buehrle threw a no-hitter and a perfect game. A player can catch lightening in a bottle once. But twice?

I'd be advocating Buehrle for the Hall of Fame regardless of what uniform he wore or will wear.

cards press box
09-22-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?

Well, in 2005, he pitched brilliantly and won the one must win game that the Sox had in the post-season -- Game 2 of the ALCS against the L.A. Angels.

SBSoxFan
09-22-2014, 12:21 PM
He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.

Buehrle is at 194 IP with one more start in 2014. Gibbons has already stated that he would, within reason, let Buehrle pitch in relief in the final game of the season if necessary to reach 200 IP. Buehrle hasn't pitched in relief in the regular season since 2000.

I'm sure you could go back and find six additional innings he could have thrown in his previous 31 starts this year. It seems like Gibbons had some pretty quick hooks this season.

Anyway, here's hoping Buehrle gets to 200 IP "naturally" against Seattle on Wednesday. :gulp:

Noneck
09-22-2014, 12:29 PM
I disagree. To me, Buehrle is the modern day Whitey Ford. Adjust the ERA to reflect the different eras in which they pitched and Buehrle compares very favorably to Ford. When discussing whether Buehrle should be a Hall of Famer, Harold Reynolds of the MLB Network was quite impressed with the similarity between Buehrle and Ford and stated that it made him re-evaluate whether Buehrle should be in the Hall.

Buehrle's stats are also comparable to Jim Hunter, another Hall of Famer.

And the Ford and Hunter comparisons don't even take into account the fact that Buehrle threw a no-hitter and a perfect game. A player can catch lightening in a bottle once. But twice?

I'd be advocating Buehrle for the Hall of Fame regardless of what uniform he wore or will wear.

Ford won a CY, 3rd in a another year and 3rd in another year for MVP.

Hunter 1 CY, a 2nd, 3rd and 4th in other years.

Buehrle not a sniff for any award.

The guy has no shot and the comparisons to Hunter and Ford are ridiculous.

chicagowhitesox1
09-22-2014, 01:57 PM
Ford won a CY, 3rd in a another year and 3rd in another year for MVP.

Hunter 1 CY, a 2nd, 3rd and 4th in other years.

Buehrle not a sniff for any award.

The guy has no shot and the comparisons to Hunter and Ford are ridiculous.

Buehrle is better than Hunter and it's really not close.

Chez
09-22-2014, 03:09 PM
Buehrle is better than Hunter and it's really not close.


C'mon. We're talking about Catfish Hunter not Tommy or Ian Hunter.

SI1020
09-22-2014, 03:30 PM
I disagree. To me, Buehrle is the modern day Whitey Ford. Adjust the ERA to reflect the different eras in which they pitched and Buehrle compares very favorably to Ford. When discussing whether Buehrle should be a Hall of Famer, Harold Reynolds of the MLB Network was quite impressed with the similarity between Buehrle and Ford and stated that it made him re-evaluate whether Buehrle should be in the Hall.

Buehrle's stats are also comparable to Jim Hunter, another Hall of Famer.

And the Ford and Hunter comparisons don't even take into account the fact that Buehrle threw a no-hitter and a perfect game. A player can catch lightening in a bottle once. But twice?

I'd be advocating Buehrle for the Hall of Fame regardless of what uniform he wore or will wear. Mark Buehrle is my favorite 21st Century White Sox player and one of my all time favorites. In no universe real or imagined does Mark Buehrle compare to Whitey Ford.

RCWHITESOX
09-22-2014, 03:52 PM
I am a Mark Buehrle fan but there is absolutely no way he would be considered for the Hall of Fame.

chicagowhitesox1
09-22-2014, 04:18 PM
C'mon. We're talking about Catfish Hunter not Tommy or Ian Hunter.

Hunter was somewhat overrated due to being on those popular A's teams and playing in New York. I think his career era plus is around 100 while Buehrle is around 120. Thats a pretty huge difference. It's not like Hunter has a ton of more career wins than Buehrle either.

Noneck
09-22-2014, 04:43 PM
When Buehrle was 10-1, an era near 2, looking at a 20 win season and a CY, this was a worthwhile discussion, even though it still would have taken a lot more to get to the hall. Now there should be no discussion at all and this thread should have been long buried.

MeteorsSox4367
09-22-2014, 04:47 PM
Does Mark Buehrle belong in my Hall of Fame? Yes.

Does Mark Buehrle belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame? Unfortunately, I don't think so.

He's one of my all-time favorite Sox and from all accounts is a top-quality human being. But is he HOF material? No.

Hall of Damn Good, but not Hall of Fame.

Vernam
09-22-2014, 07:31 PM
Catfish Hunter: Great pitcher, no doubt more highly regarded because of the A's dynasty and Yankees. Definitely belongs in the hall, quantitatively and qualitatively. Until the A's became dominant, not many people considered him dominant, and he was there a while before their heyday began. Bonus points: Bob Dylan wrote a pretty cool song (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyhj22_catfish-bob-dylan-rare_music) about him.

Bill Lee: Doesn't belong in the hall, and the Warren Zevon song about him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0lvBSfDZU) is not very great. Check out Boom Boom Mancini (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMfjyD8__Yo) instead.

Whitey Ford: Pitched on some amazing Yankees teams but would not be in the Hall if he'd been a St. Louis Brown. Everlast wrote a whole ****ing album (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LnpqQ-fFKg) called "Whitey Ford Sings the Blues," but no one really remembers Everlast.

Billy Pierce: Pitched on some very good but not amazing Sox teams and would totally be in the Hall if he and Whitey Ford had been switched at birth. The Billy Pierce Band are practitioners of swampy blues (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNPdSURY_es), and though I love all things Louisiana, our Billy deserves better.

Mark Buehrle: He's our guy. Mainstay of the first world championship in Chicago since 1917. Got the gutty Game 3 save after going 7 innings in Game 2. Threw one no-hitter, then a second no-hitter that was perfection. Slid on the tarp during rain delays until The Man made him stop. Well-known and beloved Great Teammate and Family Man. Was, to be fair, dominant only sporadically. Would totally be in the Hall if he and Andy Pettitte had been separated at birth. For him to get in, Bob Dylan needs to start working on a song about him.

chicagowhitesox1
09-22-2014, 09:42 PM
When Buehrle was 10-1, an era near 2, looking at a 20 win season and a CY, this was a worthwhile discussion, even though it still would have taken a lot more to get to the hall. Now there should be no discussion at all and this thread should have been long buried.

And then Kittle made a post about regression and not only jinxed Buehrle, but he jinxed Aaron Harang too. kidding.

kittle42
09-24-2014, 03:21 PM
And then Kittle made a post about regression and not only jinxed Buehrle, but he jinxed Aaron Harang too. kidding.

Even with the regression from Harang, who would have thought he would have been as valuable as he has this season?

SBSoxFan
09-24-2014, 07:28 PM
Buehrle has thrown 6 shutout innings against Seattle. He now sits at an even 200 IP for the season.

Gregor Chisholm @gregorMLB 7m
Buehrle becomes the seventh pitcher to record at least 200 innings in 14 consecutive seasons since 1901. #BlueJays

Gregor Chisholm @gregorMLB 7m
Buehrle comes out to wave to the crowd after getting a warm reception. Not often you see that from a pitcher who is still pitching.

Gregor Chisholm @gregorMLB 8m
For the 14th consecutive season, Mark Buehrle has reached 200 innings. He gets a standing ovation as he leaves the field. #BlueJays

hawkjt
09-25-2014, 01:23 PM
Burls throws 8 shutout innings vs the desperate M's to finish his season...what a chucker!

Mohoney
09-25-2014, 08:05 PM
Hunter was somewhat overrated due to being on those popular A's teams and playing in New York. I think his career era plus is around 100 while Buehrle is around 120. Thats a pretty huge difference. It's not like Hunter has a ton of more career wins than Buehrle either.

This makes a better case that Catfish Hunter doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame than that Mark Buehrle does belong in the Hall of Fame.

chicagowhitesox1
09-25-2014, 08:39 PM
This makes a better case that Catfish Hunter doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame than that Mark Buehrle does belong in the Hall of Fame.

True but Buehrle isn't finished yet. I know Buehrle is a very borderline Hall of Famer even with two more seasons of 200 innings but at the same time, he might have a good argument because of how durable he was.

Now I am not comparing Buehrle's career to Cal Ripkens career but Cal Ripken became an iconic player because of his durability. Mark Buehrle will get points because of his durabilty too. Of course not as much as Ripken did but he will still get points.

If Buehrle retired right now, I would say he had a Jerry Koosman type of career. Koosman does have his supporters but he's not a Hall of Famer and Buehrle wouldn't be one either if he retired right now. Buehrle needs two or three more Buehrle like seasons to really get any support.

DSpivack
09-25-2014, 09:32 PM
True but Buehrle isn't finished yet. I know Buehrle is a very borderline Hall of Famer even with two more seasons of 200 innings but at the same time, he might have a good argument because of how durable he was.

Now I am not comparing Buehrle's career to Cal Ripkens career but Cal Ripken became an iconic player because of his durability. Mark Buehrle will get points because of his durabilty too. Of course not as much as Ripken did but he will still get points.

If Buehrle retired right now, I would say he had a Jerry Koosman type of career. Koosman does have his supporters but he's not a Hall of Famer and Buehrle wouldn't be one either if he retired right now. Buehrle needs two or three more Buehrle like seasons to really get any support.


Mark Buehrle is a 5-time all-star and finished top 5 in the Cy Young award once.

Cal Ripken was a 2-time MVP and appeared in something like 15 ASGs.

Granted, both are mere popularity awards, but I don't think there's much comparison between the two other than durability. FWIW, BBref says the most similar player to Ripken was Dave Winfield. Buehrle? Jimmy Key.

chicagowhitesox1
09-25-2014, 11:20 PM
Mark Buehrle is a 5-time all-star and finished top 5 in the Cy Young award once.

Cal Ripken was a 2-time MVP and appeared in something like 15 ASGs.

Granted, both are mere popularity awards, but I don't think there's much comparison between the two other than durability. FWIW, BBref says the most similar player to Ripken was Dave Winfield. Buehrle? Jimmy Key.

The point I was trying to make was how Ripken became legendary because of his durability. Ripken would not have the iconic staus he has, had he not been so durable. I'm not trying to compare Ripken to Buehrle but what made Ripken a legend could make Buehrle a possible Hall of Fame candidate someday.

Barry Larkin was a better shortstop than Cal Ripken but most people will give the nod to Ripken because at least he played everyday. Johan Santana would be a good comparison to Buehrle...Santana deff was the better pitcher but Buehrle will be remembered as the guy who deserves the Hall of Fame more.

kittle42
09-25-2014, 11:32 PM
Johan Santana would be a good comparison to Buehrle...Santana deff was the better pitcher but Buehrle will be remembered as the guy who deserves the Hall of Fame more.

This is nonsense.

doublem23
09-25-2014, 11:36 PM
Barry Larkin was a better shortstop than Cal Ripken but most people will give the nod to Ripken because at least he played everyday. Johan Santana would be a good comparison to Buehrle...Santana deff was the better pitcher but Buehrle will be remembered as the guy who deserves the Hall of Fame more.

Barry Larkin is also a Hall of Famer

DSpivack
09-25-2014, 11:36 PM
The point I was trying t make was how Ripken became legendary because of his durability. Ripken would not have the iconic staus he has, had he not been so durable. I'm not trying to compare Ripken to Buehrle but what made Ripken a legend could make Buehrle a possible Hall of Fame candidate someday.

Barry Larkin was a better shortstop than Cal Ripken but most people will give the nod to Ripken because at least he played everyday. Johan Santana would be a good comparison to Buehrle...Santana deff was the better pitcher but Buehrle will be remembered as the guy who deserves the Hall of Fame more.
Larkin, Ripken, Santana all had years--some of them multiple seasons--were they were the best player at their position or even in all of baseball. Ripken had that with 2 MVPs, Larkin 1, and Johan had 2 Cy Young awards. Santana 6 seasons as an elite starting pitcher.

There aren't many players who are in the HOF because they were merely good for a long time. Konerko and Buehrle are similar in that regard; they've put up many seasons of good production, but were seldom if ever among the top players in baseball. Neither of them is good enough for the HOF. But I still look forward to seeing 14 and 56 retired.

doublem23
09-25-2014, 11:42 PM
Larkin, Ripken, Santana all had years--some of them multiple seasons--were they were the best player at their position or even in all of baseball. Ripken had that with 2 MVPs, Larkin 1, and Johan had 2 Cy Young awards. Santana 6 seasons as an elite starting pitcher.

There aren't many players who are in the HOF because they were merely good for a long time. Konerko and Buehrle are similar in that regard; they've put up many seasons of good production, but were seldom if ever among the top players in baseball. Neither of them is good enough for the HOF. But I still look forward to seeing 14 and 56 retired.

Larkin is seriously underrated, he was probably the best NL shortstop of the 1990s.

chicagowhitesox1
09-25-2014, 11:43 PM
Barry Larkin is also a Hall of Famer

But Larkin is not a legend like Ripken is.

doublem23
09-25-2014, 11:46 PM
But Larkin is not a legend like Ripken is.

I suppose if you're talking to someone whose never watched baseball, sure.

chicagowhitesox1
09-25-2014, 11:48 PM
Larkin, Ripken, Santana all had years--some of them multiple seasons--were they were the best player at their position or even in all of baseball. Ripken had that with 2 MVPs, Larkin 1, and Johan had 2 Cy Young awards. Santana 6 seasons as an elite starting pitcher.

There aren't many players who are in the HOF because they were merely good for a long time. Konerko and Buehrle are similar in that regard; they've put up many seasons of good production, but were seldom if ever among the top players in baseball. Neither of them is good enough for the HOF. But I still look forward to seeing 14 and 56 retired.

There are actually a lot of players in the Hall of Fame who were merely good for a long time.

chicagowhitesox1
09-25-2014, 11:50 PM
I suppose if you're talking to someone whose never watched baseball, sure.

Do you really think of Larkin as a legend like Ripken? You must have an idea on what I mean.

DSpivack
09-26-2014, 12:05 AM
There are actually a lot of players in the Hall of Fame who were merely good for a long time.
That doesn't mean there should be more of them.

chicagowhitesox1
09-26-2014, 12:46 AM
That doesn't mean there should be more of them.

The way pitchers will be voted in during the next 20 years will be not an easy task. There will be too many short careers and the ones who do pitch long will more than likely be very strong peak guys with sharp declines. There is nothing wrong with putting a guy like Buehrle, who might have 17-18 above average seasons in the Hall of Fame.

SBSoxFan
09-26-2014, 07:33 AM
The way pitchers will be voted in during the next 20 years will be not an easy task. There will be too many short careers and the ones who do pitch long will more than likely be very strong peak guys with sharp declines. There is nothing wrong with putting a guy like Buehrle, who might have 17-18 above average seasons in the Hall of Fame.

I think Buehrle retires after next season.

A. Cavatica
09-26-2014, 08:21 AM
If Buehrle retired right now, I would say he had a Jerry Koosman type of career. Koosman does have his supporters but he's not a Hall of Famer and Buehrle wouldn't be one either if he retired right now. Buehrle needs two or three more Buehrle like seasons to really get any support.

If Buehrle has a couple more Buehrle like seasons then he catches up to Koosman in counting stats. But Koosman had seasons where he won 21, 20, and 19 games, reached 200 strikeouts once, finished second in RoY and CyA voting and even got MVP votes in multiple seasons.

Buehrle threw a perfect game and another no-hitter. That's not enough to make up the difference. And Koosman is not even a Hall of Famer.

Buehrle will get a few votes from Chicago voters, but you're delusional if you think he's a serious candidate.

RKMeibalane
09-26-2014, 01:04 PM
But Larkin is not a legend like Ripken is.

Not sure I agree with that, as Larkin is regarded by many as being the best player at his position between 1989 and 1996. Were it not for Ozzie Smith, Larkin would have been the starting SS for the National League every year.

chicagowhitesox1
09-26-2014, 01:26 PM
Not sure I agree with that, as Larkin is regarded by many as being the best player at his position between 1989 and 1996. Were it not for Ozzie Smith, Larkin would have been the starting SS for the National League every year.

-Does Barry Larkin have this iconic type status that Cal Ripken has?... Not even close.
-Why does Ripken have this iconic status?....because of his durability.
-Who do I and a lot of people who know baseball think was better? ....Barry Larkin

All I was trying to say with the Ripken comparison was that what made him iconic could help Buehrle look better and i'm not saying Buehrle is iconic, just that voters will remember his durability, which will help his Hall of Fame chances.

chicagowhitesox1
09-26-2014, 01:34 PM
If Buehrle has a couple more Buehrle like seasons then he catches up to Koosman in counting stats. But Koosman had seasons where he won 21, 20, and 19 games, reached 200 strikeouts once, finished second in RoY and CyA voting and even got MVP votes in multiple seasons.

Buehrle threw a perfect game and another no-hitter. That's not enough to make up the difference. And Koosman is not even a Hall of Famer.

Buehrle will get a few votes from Chicago voters, but you're delusional if you think he's a serious candidate.

Mark Buehrle...15 seasons age 35
199 wins, 117 era plus, 3084 ip, 58.3 war

Jerry Koosman after 15 seasons, age 39
191 wins, 113 era plus 3346 ip 53.6 war....I like Buehrles chances over Koosman.

If Buehrle pitches and has just one more Buehrle like season, I doubt he's a Hall of Famer. If he pitches two more, Buehrle like seasons, he's borderline. Three more would put Buehrle into the Hall of Fame....Koosman gets to much love for being a 1969 Met.

chicagowhitesox1
09-27-2014, 06:22 PM
I think Buehrle retires after next season.

You might be right. Buehrle did say he was jealous that Konerko is retiring in Paul Konerkos video tribute.

A. Cavatica
09-28-2014, 09:20 AM
If he pitches two more, Buehrle like seasons, he's borderline. Three more would put Buehrle into the Hall of Fame....Koosman gets to much love for being a 1969 Met.

Just to be clear, a Buehrle like season is 13-10 with an ERA in the high threes, 200 innings pitched and more than 200 hits allowed. (He hasn't had a year much better than that since 2005.)

Those are #3 starter numbers, not HoF numbers.

I think he'd need to get well past 250 wins before anyone takes his candidacy seriously.

He is closer to the Hall than Konerko in my opinion, though.

soxfanreggie
09-28-2014, 11:29 AM
Just to be clear, a Buehrle like season is 13-10 with an ERA in the high threes, 200 innings pitched and more than 200 hits allowed. (He hasn't had a year much better than that since 2005.)

Those are #3 starter numbers, not HoF numbers.

I think he'd need to get well past 250 wins before anyone takes his candidacy seriously.

He is closer to the Hall than Konerko in my opinion, though.

If he were to get run support when he pitches the next 2-3 seasons with a similar ERA, it wouldn't surprise me if he clipped 250 wins. He is consistent and healthy enough to get the starts to hit that, but it's going to depend on if they can score runs for him.

The misleading thing about hits is it only matters how many of those hits actually score or generate runs. A pitcher could give up 10 hits every game for all I care if they only gave up 3 runs per 9 IP.

One thing that MB does have going is 5 AS appearances and 4 GGs. Get another one of each and that helps as well. The negative, and probably the top strike against him, only one top-5 Cy Young finish.

Noneck
09-28-2014, 01:48 PM
The negative, and probably the top strike against him, only one top-5 Cy Young finish.


And that was only 5 votes, probably home town votes after their wire to wire season.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2014, 05:24 PM
Just to be clear, a Buehrle like season is 13-10 with an ERA in the high threes, 200 innings pitched and more than 200 hits allowed. (He hasn't had a year much better than that since 2005.)

Those are #3 starter numbers, not HoF numbers.

I think he'd need to get well past 250 wins before anyone takes his candidacy seriously.

He is closer to the Hall than Konerko in my opinion, though.

At their respective primes, I think Konerko was better than Buehrle was. The reason that Buehrle could be closer to the Hall is he has a chance to be one of those guys that sticks around forever and accumulates numbers.

You might be right. Buehrle did say he was jealous that Konerko is retiring in Paul Konerkos video tribute.

Is Buehrle a free agent after 2016? Depending on how the next two years go, I could see him signing a one year contract with the White Sox for 2017 and then retire. But he might also pitch for another six years, who knows?

A. Cavatica
09-28-2014, 05:35 PM
At their respective primes, I think Konerko was better than Buehrle was. The reason that Buehrle could be closer to the Hall is he has a chance to be one of those guys that sticks around forever and accumulates numbers.


Maybe. Konerko was never a top three first baseman, was he? Might have peaked at around fourth best at his position. But Buehrle was never close to a top three pitcher.

Yes, Buehrle passes him becausr of consistency. 200 innings every year, always tons of quality starts. Konerko had several BAD seasons, Buehrle never had one that I can remember.

Both are Sox HoFers, neither deserves serious considerations for MLB HoF.

TheVulture
09-28-2014, 07:32 PM
Maybe. Konerko was never a top three first baseman, was he? Might have peaked at around fourth best at his position. But Buehrle was never close to a top three pitcher.


That's an unfair comparison, though. I would compare a top three pitcher to a top three batter, not just an individual position. Buehrle has been a top ten pitcher at times in his career.

waldo_the_wolf
09-28-2014, 08:52 PM
Except for much fewer strikeouts, Buehrle's stats are actually pretty similar to Andy Pettitte's, particularly ERA and WHIP. The only major advantages Andy has are win total and postseason success, and on that note, Pettitte's postseason stats are fairly mediocre. As silly as most of us (myself included) find the idea of Burls making the hall, if he played for a more long-term successful team and got the run support Andy Pettitte did, he would probably get serious consideration.

DSpivack
09-28-2014, 09:06 PM
Except for much fewer strikeouts, Buehrle's stats are actually pretty similar to Andy Pettitte's, particularly ERA and WHIP. The only major advantages Andy has are win total and postseason success, and on that note, Pettitte's postseason stats are fairly mediocre. As silly as most of us (myself included) find the idea of Burls making the hall, if he played for a more long-term successful team and got the run support Andy Pettitte did, he would probably get serious consideration.
Pettitte got that support, however, and I doubt he'll be voted into the HOF. I agree that the two are rather similar stats-wise; both have an ERA+ of 117, though Buehrle's FIP is a bit higher. That said, neither of them were ever fearsome pitchers considered to be a real ace. Neither belong in the HOF, but both are certainly deservedly beloved by their pinstriped fanbases.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2014, 09:19 PM
Maybe. Konerko was never a top three first baseman, was he? Might have peaked at around fourth best at his position. But Buehrle was never close to a top three pitcher.

Yes, Buehrle passes him becausr of consistency. 200 innings every year, always tons of quality starts. Konerko had several BAD seasons, Buehrle never had one that I can remember.

Both are Sox HoFers, neither deserves serious considerations for MLB HoF.

If you go off the stats, Konerko was never a top three first baseman or a hitter but that's also a side effect of playing in the steroid era. When steroids are brought into the conversation, I think a pretty solid argument could be made that Paulie was one of the top 3 first baseman in the game from 2004-2006 and maybe again from 2010-2012.

Mohoney
09-28-2014, 10:38 PM
Except for much fewer strikeouts, Buehrle's stats are actually pretty similar to Andy Pettitte's, particularly ERA and WHIP. The only major advantages Andy has are win total and postseason success, and on that note, Pettitte's postseason stats are fairly mediocre. As silly as most of us (myself included) find the idea of Burls making the hall, if he played for a more long-term successful team and got the run support Andy Pettitte did, he would probably get serious consideration.

Andy Pettitte should not be a serious HOF candidate, either.

SBSoxFan
09-29-2014, 10:46 AM
At their respective primes, I think Konerko was better than Buehrle was. The reason that Buehrle could be closer to the Hall is he has a chance to be one of those guys that sticks around forever and accumulates numbers.



Is Buehrle a free agent after 2016? Depending on how the next two years go, I could see him signing a one year contract with the White Sox for 2017 and then retire. But he might also pitch for another six years, who knows?

He's signed through 2015. I just don't see him signing another contract. He'd certainly have to take a big pay cut.

SI1020
09-29-2014, 03:01 PM
Both are Sox HoFers, neither deserves serious considerations for MLB HoF. I wish we could just end it on that note.