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chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 03:28 PM
Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.

Players with higher WAR not in HOF.
1. Roger Clemens 139.4.....May take awhile to get in
2. Greg Maddux 104.6....might recieve highest votes ever
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.
4. Pedro Martinez 86.0.....first ballot
5. Mike Mussina 82.7....He will get in easily
6. Curt chilling 80.7.....might be this era's Blylevin, he'll get in though
7. Jim McCormik 75.5....someday he'll get in. 19th century guys often get overlooked.
8. Tom Glavine 74.0....he'll get in
9. Kevin Brown 68.5....Steroids will keep him out
10. Rick Reuschel 68.2.....Hopefully Buehrle isn't classed with him.
11. John Smoltz 66.5....He'll get in easily
12. Luis Tiant 66.1.....I think eventualy he'll get in. His era hurts him a bit.
13. Roy Halladay 66.5......He will get in easily
14. Tommy John 62.3....He might get in but 26 seasons with no major accomplishments will likely keep him out for awhile.
15. Bobby Mathews 62.2....He should be in but he's another 19th century guy.
16. David Cone 61.7.....i'm torn on him but I doubt he gets in.
17. Tommy Bond 61.0.....19th century pitcher.
18. Charlie Buffington 60.6....19th century pitcher
19. Tony Mullane 60.2.....19th century pitcher
20. Bret Saberhagen 59.1.....he could have supporters someday. comparable to Billy Pierce.
21. Jack Quinn 59.0....He won't be getting in anytime soon, if ever.
22. Chuck Finley 58.5....I don't think he has a chance.
23. Andy Pettite 58.4.....steroids will haunt him.
24. Frank Tanana 57.5.....Good career but falls short.
25. Jerry Koosman 57.1....good pitcher but he won't get in.
26. Dave Stieb 57.0.....very underrated but he won't get in.
27. Eddie Cicotte 56.9...Blacksox scandel cost him a Hall of Fame career.
28. Jack Powell 56.0....he's just a forgotten player. Interesting player though.
29. Mariano Rivera 55.6.....Easy Hall of Famer
30. Tim Hudson 55.4......This injury may cost him.
31. Kevin Appier 55.1....He might have gotten motre attention if he pitched somewhere else.
32. Urban Shocker 54.8...played in New York, he's got a better chance than alot of guys for that reason.
33. Mark Buehrle 54.4..if he can somehow get 10.0 more WAR he will be in some pretty good company. He passed Sabathia last night and could possibly move past Hudson before the year ends
34. CC Sabathia 54.2....I think he's got a good chance if his arm idn't dead. He looks horrible this year.
......................................
Hall of Fame players with lower WAR.
Whitey Ford 53.9....hofer but Yankees easily made him look better.
Waite Hoyt 53.3.....Yankees made him a hofer.
Sandy Koufax 53.2....obviously he's better.....easily a hofer.
Al Spalding 52.2.....short career but very good career.
Early Wynn 51.6...300 game winner.....hofer but only because he won 300.
Hoyt Wilhelm 50.1.....easily the second best relief pitcher,,easy hofer
Burleigh Grimes 46.9....He's very borderline.
Addie Joss 45.9....Short career, Sandy Koufax type of career.
Herb Pennock 44.1....I'm surprised he got in so early but he's a decent hofer.
Chief Bender 44.0....had some good years, a little overrated but i'd say he deserves to be in.
Lefty Gomez 43.1....another Yankee pitcher but he's a decent hofer.
Dizzy Dean 42.7.....short career but his popularity makes him a strong choice.
Rich Gossage 41.8....I say no but he was better than Sutter and Fingers.
Jack Chesbro 41.2....I don't think he is. (Yankee pitcher)
Candy Cummings 38.5....Innovator, invented curveball.
Bob Lemon 37.5....surprised he had such a low career war. Very good pitcher from the 1950's.
Catfish Hunter 36.6....Teams he played for really helped his win total. Makes me wonder what Rick Reuschel would have done had he pitched for Oakland and New York in his prime.
Jesse Haines 35.7....Frankie Frich pick...Not a hofer
Rube Marquard 34.2...Frankie Frisch pick also.
Monte Ward 28.4....19th century guy. maybe the 10th best 19th century pitcher.
Rollie Fingers 25.0......I don't think he is compared to other closers. Sparky Lyle and Kent Tekulve were just as good.
Bruce Sutter 24.5....I think he's another horrible choice.
Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

soxfanreggie
08-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Mark Buehrle could have some serious Hall of Fame debates when he retires.
3. Randy Johnson 104.3...he might take a hit like Bagwell but will get in.


Babe Ruth 20.6.....pitching war. I always wonder what type of career he could of had as a pitcher. He was on his way to being a hofer pitcher.

Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

Randy Johnson will be a first ballot but he wont get the votes Maddux gets. There will be voters who penalize him. I don't want to get into a steroid debate though. The voters don't seem to care if there's hard core proof or not.

Regarding Ruth, I just wonder what type of career he would have had if he was purely a pitcher. Obviously they made the right choice in converting him to a hitter.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 04:25 PM
The way I look at it, was there any time in Mark's career when you ever thought he was a top 5 or even top 10 pitcher in the league? Very good, very consistent pitcher for a long long time, but only Sox hall of fame worthy.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 04:52 PM
The saber stat guys are saying that 70.0 plus war is automatic for the Hall of Fame and I agree, i've always thought of Buehrle as a good pitcher nothing great but it's hard to ignore a career if he does reach 64 or 65.0 career war. More than likely if he does reach 65 war, he will be remembered like Rick Reucshel.

I made a mistake on Mark Buehrle's carer war too. He's at 54.1.

SoxFanCPA
08-11-2013, 05:08 PM
No.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 05:15 PM
Hall of Fame pitchers within reach.

1. Stan Coveleski 65.2....strong hofer
2. Bob Feller 65.2...easy hofer, obviously would have been better if not for WWII. Feller did claim that the war probably saved his arm though.
3. Mickey Welch 63.8.....strong hofer
4. Ed Walsh 63.2......strong hofer
5. Dennis Eckersley 62.5.....gets alot of help from being a starter. still he's a good hof player.
6. Dazzy Vance 62.5......strong hofer
7. Juan Marichal 61.9......strong hofer
8. Don Drysdale 61.2...strong hofer
9. Rube Wadell 61.0......strong hofer
10. Joe McGinnity 60.4....some think he's a bit overrated but he's a strong hofer.
11. Hal Newhouser 60.4....gets picked on due to pitching in a watered down league during WWII but stats show the leagues really weren't watered down as some may think. Strong hofer
12. Clark Griffith 57.7....19th century guy
13. Eppa Rixey 56. 8.....he's a bit weak
14. Red Ruffing 55.4...another weak pick (Yankee pitcher.
.......................................
Mark Buehrle 54.1

Alot of these guys especially Marichal and Drysdale had great peaks and declined sharply or had thier careers cut short to various reasons. Mark Buehrle never had a great peak but he's at least stayed consistent. Maybe slow and steady will get him in.

amsteel
08-11-2013, 05:50 PM
Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 05:58 PM
Absolutely.

Oh, you weren't talking about the St Charles, Missouri Hall of Fame? Then no.

Guys who played in the post steroid era are going to be held to a much higher standard than guys 40+ years ago.

Which is idiotic, but completely true.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 06:33 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

Mr. Jinx
08-11-2013, 06:41 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.

1) Meaningless. Did you suspect Pablo Ozuna of using steroids? Did you suspect Fernando Vina? Andy Petite doesn't exactly scream user but he was too.

2) Also meaningless. They don't award hall votes for being a team with almost a century of futility.

3) Those definitely will. Very few have done that.

4) Probably doesn't mean a lot as it isn't really a "stat" that so many voters look for.

5) Was Mark really a big saber guy? He led the league in hits given up a few times. I'm not a saber guy myself but wouldn't that work against him?

eastchicagosoxfan
08-11-2013, 06:48 PM
A HOF player should have a career and the stats that jump out at you. Buehrle's had neither. Buehrle can't even point to a monster season. Unfortunately, the various Veteran's Committees really brought in a lot of guys that watered down the HOF. Mark needs to have his career peak after the age of 35 to receive serious consideration. If he wants to take the Bert Blyleven route, he needs to win 100 more games. He's won 13 each of the last four seasons. He might win 13 this year.

WLL1855
08-11-2013, 07:00 PM
Mark's a guy in the mold of Jaime Moyer. Solid player but unexceptional career. He could probably play into his 40's but won't want to.

No. He won't be inducted in the Hall.

Railsplitter
08-11-2013, 09:27 PM
Two things: 1.). Do you honestly think RJ won't get in first ballot? I'm not sure what you mean by the Bagwell thing for a guy with 5 Cy Young awards, 300+ wins, 2nd all-time in K's, and a ring. Add on a perfect game, a no-no, 10 AS appearances, WS MVP, and the highest K's per game for a starter.

For the Babe, he was on track to be a HOF pitcher, but he could have been a guy who pitched and then played the field in off days. Teams now would never let that happen, but I bet they would have done it then.

The Babe was playing in the outfield in 1918, but it was the WWI manpower shortage that contributed to that.

Milw
08-11-2013, 09:32 PM
....Mark Buehrle is one of the guys who I doubt anyone would suspect of using steroids and the fact he pitched well in the steroid era could help him get in even more.

....Mark Buehrle unlike Reuschel won a World Series Ring and won it with a team that hadn't won in close to 90 years. Could help him.

....His perfect game and no hitter will stand out.

....has always been known as a gold glove player. Might work in his favor.

....Writers have always liked Buehrle and this could be helpful too. Especially in 10 to 15 years down the road when voters will be younger and more saber stat heavy.
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

shes
08-11-2013, 09:56 PM
He'll have to rack up another 118 wins to get in. Somehow I don't see it happening.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:00 PM
1) Meaningless. Did you suspect Pablo Ozuna of using steroids? Did you suspect Fernando Vina? Andy Petite doesn't exactly scream user but he was too.

2) Also meaningless. They don't award hall votes for being a team with almost a century of futility.

3) Those definitely will. Very few have done that.

4) Probably doesn't mean a lot as it isn't really a "stat" that so many voters look for.

5) Was Mark really a big saber guy? He led the league in hits given up a few times. I'm not a saber guy myself but wouldn't that work against him?

I'm not a big saber guy either but his career era+ is actually pretty good compared to alot of Hall of Famers. I would have to look this up but how many pitchers since 1980 have had 12 consecutive 200 plus innings? He's got a good chance of making it 13 if he does it this year. I know he's not a Hall of Famer as we speak but if he puts up 3 more seasons of 200 plus innings and averages about 3.0 war then he has to be considered as a decent candidate. A strong peak would have helped him alot but theres not to many pitchers who have been as consistent as him with no baggage over the past 30 years.

It's a longshot that he will even pitch 200 innings for 3 more seasons but it's possible with the way he throws and 16 consecutive seasons of 200 innings especially in this era will not be overlooked.

I think the 2005 championship will play a part in some voters minds. Plus theres not too many WS teams that have no Hall of Fame or future Hall of Famers and as forgotten as the 2005 Whitesox are to alot of people in the country they are still a team thats going to be remembered for bringing Chicago it's first WS since 1917. ........Frank Thomas wasn't really a part of that team due to postseason. I know he played a part in the regular season though.

The Florida Marlins might be the only team that I can think of that won't have any Hall of Famers. The 2005 Whitesox could be another one but I find it hard to believe that nobody on that team will make it. Mark Buehrle is probably the best player to have any chance of making it.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:09 PM
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

Yeah I know he's a longshot and i'm using career war as a perspective and maybe thats a bad way of looking at him but looking at how war rates other hall of fame pitchers, war seems to get their careers right so why would Buehrle, if he ends up with a mid 60 war be a bad choice? He pitched in a tough AL Central, in a hitters ball park during a high powered offense era so of course his stats aren't going to look spectacular.

chicagowhitesox1
08-11-2013, 10:11 PM
He'll have to rack up another 118 wins to get in. Somehow I don't see it happening.

I would say he needs 250 to be a automatic.

SoxFanCPA
08-11-2013, 10:13 PM
I would say he needs 250 to be a automatic.

He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

SBSoxFan
08-11-2013, 10:15 PM
The way I look at it, was there any time in Mark's career when you ever thought he was a top 5 or even top 10 pitcher in the league? Very good, very consistent pitcher for a long long time, but only Sox hall of fame worthy.

Maybe 2001, 2002, and 2005.

A HOF player should have a career and the stats that jump out at you. Buehrle's had neither. Buehrle can't even point to a monster season. Unfortunately, the various Veteran's Committees really brought in a lot of guys that watered down the HOF. Mark needs to have his career peak after the age of 35 to receive serious consideration. If he wants to take the Bert Blyleven route, he needs to win 100 more games. He's won 13 each of the last four seasons. He might win 13 this year.

He might win 13, but he'd need to go on a good run. He's currently 8-7.

I'm not a big saber guy either but his career era+ is actually pretty good compared to alot of Hall of Famers. I would have to look this up but how many pitchers since 1980 have had 12 consecutive 200 plus innings? He's got a good chance of making it 13 if he does it this year. I know he's not a Hall of Famer as we speak but if he puts up 3 more seasons of 200 plus innings and averages about 3.0 war then he has to be considered as a decent candidate. A strong peak would have helped him alot but theres not to many pitchers who have been as consistent as him with no baggage over the past 30 years.

It's a longshot that he will even pitch 200 innings for 3 more seasons but it's possible with the way he throws and 16 consecutive seasons of 200 innings especially in this era will not be overlooked.

I think the 2005 championship will play a part in some voters minds. Plus theres not too many WS teams that have no Hall of Fame or future Hall of Famers and as forgotten as the 2005 Whitesox are to alot of people in the country they are still a team thats going to be remembered for bringing Chicago it's first WS since 1917. ........Frank Thomas wasn't really a part of that team due to postseason. I know he played a part in the regular season though.

The Florida Marlins might be the only team that I can think of that won't have any Hall of Famers. The 2005 Whitesox could be another one but I find it hard to believe that nobody on that team will make it. Mark Buehrle is probably the best player to have any chance of making it.

I'd say he has a great chance of making it 13 in a row if he pitches 200 innings this year. :tongue:

With the Sox demise this year, probably the one baseball item I'm most interested in is seeing whether Buehrle once again wins 10+ games and pitches over 200 innings. He should easily get to 10 wins, needing only 2 more wins, but he will need to pitch about 50 more innings in ~8 starts.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2013, 05:36 AM
Mark might get in if he gets to 200 wins +, the perfect game and the other no hitter will help. With pitchers starting less games every year, 200 wins might be the new 300. In fact I don't know if we will ever see another 300 game winner in MLB. With pitchers starting every 5 games it's tough to get to 300 wins. Another reason is pitchers are pulled after 100 pitches, so say in a tie game where they might have a chance to win, most of the time they are taken out of the game because of pitch count.

If any White sox pitcher belongs in the HOF, its Billy Pierce.
All this WAR stuff and other stats except for W-L and ERA have to take a back seat to how a player performed in his era. Pierce was one of the top pitchers in the 50s, he started 2 All-Star games and made 7 All Star teams. He won 20 games twice. in my mind only Warren Spahn and Robin Roberts were better in that era. I don't think Whitey Ford was better, put Pierce on the Yankees and Ford on the White Sox and Billy is in the HOF as we speak.

Noneck
08-12-2013, 08:16 AM
Mark might get in if he gets to 200 wins +, the perfect game and the other no hitter will help. With pitchers starting less games every year, 200 wins might be the new 300. In fact I don't know if we will ever see another 300 game winner in MLB. With pitchers starting every 5 games it's tough to get to 300 wins. Another reason is pitchers are pulled after 100 pitches, so say in a tie game where they might have a chance to win, most of the time they are taken out of the game because of pitch count.

If any White sox pitcher belongs in the HOF, its Billy Pierce.
All this WAR stuff and other stats except for W-L and ERA have to take a back seat to how a player performed in his era. Pierce was one of the top pitchers in the 50s, he started 2 All-Star games and made 7 All Star teams. He won 20 games twice. in my mind only Warren Spahn and Robin Roberts were better in that era. I don't think Whitey Ford was better, put Pierce on the Yankees and Ford on the White Sox and Billy is in the HOF as we speak.


Im with you all the way on this. I guess Buehrle has a chance if he pitches many more years, gets a lot more wins, sniffs a couple cy youngs and makes more all star teams. Pierce deserves it now, yesterday and did 40 years ago. Billy is such a nice guy, it would be so great if he could get in while he is still with us so he could enjoy it.

BainesHOF
08-12-2013, 09:38 AM
The only chance Buehrle has to get into the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket.

To say the only reason Early Wynn got into the HOF because he won 300 games is like saying the only reason Neil Armstrong was an astronaut is because he walked on the moon.

Golden Sox
08-12-2013, 09:42 AM
It has amazed me as to who has been elected to the MLB HOF in my lifetime. I NEVER thought Walter O'Malley, Bill Veeck and Ron Santo would be inducted into the HOF. It's almost as if these baseball historians have reinvented history. I can see how Veeck got inducted, he was liked by the media. That wasn't the case with O'Malley and Santo. Billy Pierce was a better pitcher than Mark Buehrle and he's not in the HOF. Unless Buehrle has a tremendous finish to his career, I can't see him being inducted.

socko82
08-12-2013, 09:43 AM
I love Buehrle as much as every other Sox fan on this board but there's no way he's a HOF'er. He's a compiler, give him credit, he's stayed healthy, been a good teammate and been constinent but that doesn't get you in the HOF. In my opinion, David Cone had a better career than Mark including a Cy Young award and a perfect game and even with the east coast media behind him he was dropped from the ballot after one year. Another thing to consider is with the steroid guys backing up, ballots are going to be split and the guys who vote for the steroid guys are not going to have room on their ballots for the fringe candidates.

Also, I don't think Mussina gets in "easily". Maybe eventually it's gonna take a while.

Hitmen77
08-12-2013, 09:44 AM
He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

tstrike2000
08-12-2013, 09:45 AM
Mark's a great guy and pitcher but not HOF worthy. He's one ex-player that could possibly make a good addition to our coaching staff.

DSpivack
08-12-2013, 10:00 AM
Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

I agree. He and Konerko are similar in that regard.

Foulke You
08-12-2013, 10:29 AM
I love the guy but unless Mark puts together a bunch of all star seasons in his twilight years, he is not getting in. Buehrle's post career honor will likely be having his #56 retired by the White Sox. If he retired today, he has had a fine career but I don't see him going to the Hall.

Boondock Saint
08-12-2013, 10:55 AM
I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

Danryan
08-12-2013, 11:04 AM
Mark is great, but no HOF.

TDog
08-12-2013, 01:11 PM
You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

Mr. Jinx
08-12-2013, 01:40 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.


What the hell are you talking about?

Foulke You
08-12-2013, 02:00 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.
Ummmmm...what?! :?:

doublem23
08-12-2013, 03:11 PM
It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

Huisj
08-12-2013, 03:34 PM
Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

By what measure? I'm not sure how you can rate 202 IP with a slightly better than league average ERA in the NL over what he did in 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2008, and really even 2009 and 2011. Just because his WHIP was a little lower from a lower BABIP? Because his K's jumped? Those can be used as arguments I suppose, but the overall results don't point to those being better seasons than many of his years in Chicago.

TDog
08-12-2013, 04:41 PM
Ummmmm...what?! :?:

Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

Domeshot17
08-12-2013, 04:48 PM
I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.

lpneck
08-12-2013, 09:51 PM
Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

The bolded section sounds like KingXerxes doing a Farmio impression.

In all seriousness, your original statement was that "the White Sox fan base doesn't show their players the kind of respect that fans in other cities show their players."

I just don't buy that at all. I can't think of ANY former Sox player who has been treated badly returning to Chicago with maybe the exception of Sammy Sosa. Thomas, Crede, Thome, Rowand- all received standing ovations while PLAYING for other teams.

Adam Dunn, who is one of the worst 3 free agent signings in franchise history, gets treated pretty much with indifference from fans in the ballpark. How would that .159 average in 2011 have gone over if he had played in New York, Boston, or Philadelphia?

I don't disagree that there's a lot of negativity surrounding the Sox right now (how could there not be?) But to believe that any of that is generally directed at a lack of respect for the players, and certainly former players, and WITHOUT QUESTION someone who was as successful in a Sox uniform as Mark Buehrle is flat out crazy. He will never have to pay for a drink in Chicago for the rest of his life.

That being said, it's probably even crazier to believe Mark Buehrle is a Hall of Fame caliber player

WhiteSox5187
08-12-2013, 10:13 PM
I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.


I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

chicagowhitesox1
08-12-2013, 10:22 PM
If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

DSpivack
08-12-2013, 11:11 PM
If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

Well, it ain't the Hall of Durability.

SouthSideMike
08-13-2013, 03:56 PM
From his page at Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml)

Hall Of Fame Statistics Player rank in ()

Black Ink Pitching - 8 (303), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 44 (310), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (102nd), 53.4 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/44.6 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS


He's not even close on any of those tests of HOF worthiness. Great player, one of my all time favorites, but nowhere near a HOF player.

ZombieRob
08-13-2013, 06:02 PM
Great White Sox..Good but not one of the great ones.

Foulke You
08-13-2013, 06:21 PM
Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.
I will agree that White Sox fans can be a bit cynical and also can be a group of fatalists, however, I've never felt our fans disrespect the players. If you play hard here and play well, White Sox fans are extremely loyal. Heck, sometimes all you have to do is play hard and not be that good to get our loyalty. (i.e. Aaron Rowand)

pythons007
08-13-2013, 06:56 PM
I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

chicagowhitesox1
08-15-2013, 09:19 PM
He beat Boston 2-1 tonight. He's up to 157 innings for the year now.

Zakath
08-23-2013, 10:43 PM
I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

That's the key number. He's still 67 wins from that, which, depending on where he's pitching (I don't think he stays in Toronto), could take 4-7 years. He could easily be 40 before he gets there.

TDog
08-24-2013, 12:09 AM
This. I'm not making a case for buehrle either but the way bullpens are used nowadays and how misleading the win is, voters really need to change what they consider HOF worthy. I think quality starts needs to be considered. When you think of how bullpens regularly blow leads in remarkable fashion and pitch counts determine innings pitched...different criteria needs to be considered for starting pitchers going forward.

But the pitchers who belong in the Hall of Fame (with the exception of the elite of the elite closers and the occasional Hoyt Wilhelm) are the ones that are picking up wins because they go so deep into their games. They aren't the ones that are missing out on wins because they are pulled after six.

SBSoxFan
08-25-2013, 05:39 PM
Buehrle won his 10th game today; that's 13 straight seasons with 10 or more wins. He needs to pitch 28 more innings to hit 200 IP for the 13th straight season.

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 07:56 PM
I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

doublem23
08-25-2013, 10:21 PM
I would think he would get at least 5 more starts so he should easily reach 200 innings. Baseball Reference hasn't updated Buehrles stats yet but he might pass Urban Shocker for career war and he will be right behind Hall of Famer Three Finger Brown.

They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 10:37 PM
They update their stats everyday, Buehrle's not going to make up the 1/2 point of WAR he trails Urban Shocker by in 1 game, maybe by the end of the year, at best

They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

doublem23
08-25-2013, 10:48 PM
They usually update the stats around 3 am. Buehrle is at 54.5 and Shocker is at 54.8. After todays game and when they updat the stats, Buehrle should be tied or maybe pass Shocker.

I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

chicagowhitesox1
08-25-2013, 10:53 PM
I think that's still a pretty tall order for just 1 game, remember, it's taken him 26 starts to accumulate 2.0 WAR.

Definitely could see him passing Shocker by season's end if he starts anothe 5-6 games, but I would be surprised if they're even tied tomorrow.

I really have no idea how they calculate war but in his last start he pitched 6.2 innings and got.2 war and in todays game he went 8 innings and pitched a better game so i'm guesing he'll get at least .3 war.

Chez
08-26-2013, 10:31 AM
Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

kittle42
08-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Just to put Mark's HOF potential in perspective (and recognizing that his chances for the HOF will likely improve the longer he continues to pitch), using the metrics listed in Baseball Reference, at this point in his career, the likelihood of Buehrle make the HOF is lower than Magglio Ordonez's. He's going to have to continue to pitch effectively well beyond the length of his current contract.

Exactly. Those thinking he is worthy of the Hall are just drinking the Sox fan kool-aid, but that's OK. We're Sox fans.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 11:17 AM
He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

kittle42
08-26-2013, 11:32 AM
He gained .4 war to pass Urban Shocker as 76th highest war for pitchers. Currently he's at 54.9. He has a very good shot of passing Red Ruffing, Kevin Appier, Tim Hudson and Three Finger Brown. I don't see how Magglio Ordonez is a better Hall of Famer than Buehrle either. Ordonez had a nice peak but he eneded up with a 38.0 war. There's not to many hitters in the Hall of Fame who ended up with a war under 40.0. Alot of the guys in the Hall of Fame with a war under 40.0 are Frankie Frisch crony picks too.

This won't do it, unless he turns into Greg Maddux for his last 7 years or so:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in ()

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink)Pitching - 9 (271), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink)Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor)Pitching - 44 (309), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standard)Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml) Starting Pitcher (100th) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml), 54.2 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/45.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS
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Scott Sanderson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sandesc01.shtml) (933)
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Mike Flanagan (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/flanami01.shtml) (919)
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Jimmy Key (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/keyji01.shtml) (917)
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chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:16 PM
This won't do it, unless he turns into Greg Maddux for his last 7 years or so:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in ()

Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink)Pitching - 9 (271), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink)Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor)Pitching - 44 (309), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standard)Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml) Starting Pitcher (100th) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml), 54.2 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/45.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS
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I don't see how these guys are comparable to Mark Buehrle at all.
1. Bill Gullickson 98 era+ 14 seasons 23.9 war 0 allstars
2. Scott Sanderson 102 era+ 19 seasons 29.6 war 1 allstar
3. Frank Viola 112 era- 15 seasons 47.4 war 3 all stars
4. Paul Splittorff 101 era+ 15 seasons 22.8 war 0 allstars
5. John Burkett 99 era+ 15 seasons 21.6 war 2 allstars
6. Doug Drabek 101 era+ 13 seasons 27.8 war 1 allstar
7. Mike Flanagan 100 era + 18 seasons 26.0 war 1 allstar
8. Bob Forsch 98 era+ 16 seasons 19.1 war 0 allstars
9. Jimmy Key 122 era+ 15 seasons 49.4 war 4 allstars
10. Bartolo Colon 113 era+ 16 seasons 43.3 war 3 allstars... known ped user.
Mark Buehrle....118 era+ 14 seasons 54.9 war 4 allstars with years left to play.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:34 PM
Assuming Mark Buehrle reaches 200 innings this year, he will be in some pretty good company. Longest 200 innings streaks alltime.

1. Cy Young 19, HOF
2. Warren Spahn 17, HOF
3. Don Sutton 15, HOF
4. Gaylord Perry 15, HOF
5. Greg Maddux 14...he came 2 outs away from doing it 19 straight. HOF this year
6. Phil Niekro 14....1981 strike probably cost him 20 straight years. HOF
7. Christy Mathewson 14, HOF
8. Steve Carlton 13, HOF
9. Pud Galvin 13, HOF
10. Bobo Newsome 13, 51.7 war in 20 seasons. Buehrle is already at 54.9 in 14 seasons.
11. Kid Nichols 13, HOF
12. Eddie Plank 13, HOF
13. Jack Powell 13....a pitcher from the early 20th century. He gets mentioned for the hall of fame from some. 56.0 career war.
14. Red Ruffing 13, HOF
15. Tom Seaver 13, HOF
16. Vic Willis 13, HOF
17. Mark Buehrle 13 ???

The only other pitcher with a streak over 10 years, whose career ended after 1980 is Frank Viola with 10. If Buehrle reaches 15 straight seasons then it will be very hard to ignore him for the Hall of Fame.

SoxFanCPA
08-26-2013, 12:44 PM
:thud:


Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 12:51 PM
:thud:


Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

SoxFanCPA
08-26-2013, 12:55 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

You make my brain hurt.

Mr. Jinx
08-26-2013, 01:38 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 01:59 PM
He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

You are severely undervaluing Mark Buehrle if you actually believe this.. Five more seasons of 200 innings would put him around 230 wins and a 70 plus war. There is not one Hall of Famer pitcher with 70 plus war not in the Hall of Fame and you actually feel he won't even get 10 percent of the vote? He would probably be a first ballot if he had 5 more 200 inning seasons.

Mr. Jinx
08-26-2013, 07:28 PM
You are severely undervaluing Mark Buehrle if you actually believe this.. Five more seasons of 200 innings would put him around 230 wins and a 70 plus war. There is not one Hall of Famer pitcher with 70 plus war not in the Hall of Fame and you actually feel he won't even get 10 percent of the vote? He would probably be a first ballot if he had 5 more 200 inning seasons.

That's just ridiculous. WAR is an accumulating stat. Great for Mark for being good to very good forever. That's not HOF worthy and it isn't even close.

chicagowhitesox1
08-26-2013, 09:03 PM
That's just ridiculous. WAR is an accumulating stat. Great for Mark for being good to very good forever. That's not HOF worthy and it isn't even close.

Then why is every pitcher with 70 plus war in the Hall of Fame? Buehrle gets somewhat forgotten because he was never a flashy player. This is somewhat interesting too.

These are seven generation of pitchers. Some pitchers overlapped a bit but I feel all of them are where they should be.

Generation1 1880's to 1890's
Cy Young HOF
Kid Nichols HOF
Tim Keefe HOF
John Clarkson HOF
Amos Rusie HOF
Old Hoss Radbourne HOF
Pud Galvin HOF
Mickey Welch HOF
Clark Griffith HOF

Generation 2 1900's to 1910's
Walter Johnson HOF
Christy Mathewson HOF
Pete Alexander HOF
Three Finger Brown HOF
Ed Walsh HOF
Eddie Plank HOF
Rube Waddell HOF
Addie Joss HOF
Chief Bender HOF
Joe McGinity HOF
Rube Marquard HOF
Jack Chesbro HOF
Vic Willis HOF

Generation 3 1920's to 1930's
Lefty Grove HOF
Carl Hubbell HOF
Dizzy Dean HOF
Dazzy Vance HOF
Ted Lyons HOF
Eppa Rixey HOF
Red Faber HOF
Stan Coveleski HOF
Red Ruffing HOF
Waite Hoyt HOF
Burleigh Grimes HOF
Lefty Gomez HOF
Herb Pennock HOF
Jesse Haines HOF

Generation 4 1940's to 1950's
Warren Spahn HOF
Robin Roberts HOF
Bob Feller HOF
Hal Newhouser HOF
Early Wynn HOF
Bob Lemon HOF
Whity Ford HOF
Satchel Paige HOF
Billy Pierce...Possible future Hall of Famer

Generation 5 1960's to 1970's
Tom Seaver HOF
Steve Carlton HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF
Gaylord Perry HOF
Phil Niekro HOF
Don Sutton HOF
Fergie Jenkins HOF
Bert Blyleven HOF
Jim Palmer HOF
Sandy Koufax HOF
Bob Gibson HOF
Don Drysdale HOF
Catfish Hunter HOF
Juan Marichal HOF
Jim Bunning HOF
................................
Generation 6 1980's to 1990's
Greg Maddux future HOF
Roger Clemens...He had a Hall of Fame career
Randy Johnson Future HOF
Pedro Martinez Future HOF
Mike Mussina Future HOF
Curt Schilling Future HOF
Tom Glavine Future HOF
John Smoltz Future HOF
Jack Morris..Gets consideration and Buehrle has had a better career.
David Cone...outside chance of making it.

Generation 7 2000's to current
Roy Halladay...He will get in
CC Sabathia....He's got a decent shot but he looks like he's slowing down.
Felix Hernandez...It's still to early to say but he's got a good chance
Justin Verlander...Same boat as Felix Hernandez
Tim Hudson....This injury may cost him
Roy Oswalt....I don't think he has a chance
Cliff Lee...He's got a outside chance if he stays healthy
Bartolo Colon...Even with a steroid deduction he has no chance.
Barry Zito...No chance
Matt Cain...Possibly but he's geting lit up pretty hard this year.
Jake Peavy...Too injury prone
Chris Carpenter....Too many injuries
Dan Haren....No chance
John Lackey....No chance
Clayton Kershaw...Very good chance
Chris Sale...Staring out good
Adam Waignwright....starting out good
Zack Grienke...I would be surprised if he had a long career
AJ Burnett...I would say Buehrle is better
Andy Pettite..steroid deduction
Johan Santana...he has a good argument on being better than Buehrle but he looks like he's finished.
Cole Hamels....Possibly but I doubt he keeps it up.
Jered Weaver...He's looking strong.
Stephen Strasburg...Has potential
Matt Harvey....Might be injury prone.
Tim Lincecum...He'll probably be a reliever soon which may help his chances.

Mark Buehrle will have a top 8 career out of these guys.

Each generation will produce at least 8 Hall of Famer pitchers. I don't see too many of Mark Buehrle's generation having better overall careers than him.

chicagowhitesox1
08-30-2013, 08:53 PM
Mark Buehrle pitched another nice game, throwing 7 shutout innings and beating a pretty tough Royals offense. He's up to 179 innings on the year and will probably bring his war up to around 55.2 which will put him ahead of Three Finger Brown and Kevin Appier. Next up is Tim Hudson at 55.3.

mzh
08-30-2013, 09:02 PM
While I don't think Buehrle is on a HOF level of dominance, there is something to be said for being very good for a very long time. If it gets to a point where he continues to put up 10-15 wins and 200 IP all the way through age 40, then I think the longevity factor deserves a much closer look.

Mr. Jinx
08-31-2013, 12:16 AM
Then why is every pitcher with 70 plus war in the Hall of Fame? Buehrle gets somewhat forgotten because he was never a flashy player. This is somewhat interesting too.

These are seven generation of pitchers. Some pitchers overlapped a bit but I feel all of them are where they should be.

Generation1 1880's to 1890's
Cy Young HOF
Kid Nichols HOF
Tim Keefe HOF
John Clarkson HOF
Amos Rusie HOF
Old Hoss Radbourne HOF
Pud Galvin HOF
Mickey Welch HOF
Clark Griffith HOF

Generation 2 1900's to 1910's
Walter Johnson HOF
Christy Mathewson HOF
Pete Alexander HOF
Three Finger Brown HOF
Ed Walsh HOF
Eddie Plank HOF
Rube Waddell HOF
Addie Joss HOF
Chief Bender HOF
Joe McGinity HOF
Rube Marquard HOF
Jack Chesbro HOF
Vic Willis HOF

Generation 3 1920's to 1930's
Lefty Grove HOF
Carl Hubbell HOF
Dizzy Dean HOF
Dazzy Vance HOF
Ted Lyons HOF
Eppa Rixey HOF
Red Faber HOF
Stan Coveleski HOF
Red Ruffing HOF
Waite Hoyt HOF
Burleigh Grimes HOF
Lefty Gomez HOF
Herb Pennock HOF
Jesse Haines HOF

Generation 4 1940's to 1950's
Warren Spahn HOF
Robin Roberts HOF
Bob Feller HOF
Hal Newhouser HOF
Early Wynn HOF
Bob Lemon HOF
Whity Ford HOF
Satchel Paige HOF
Billy Pierce...Possible future Hall of Famer

Generation 5 1960's to 1970's
Tom Seaver HOF
Steve Carlton HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF
Gaylord Perry HOF
Phil Niekro HOF
Don Sutton HOF
Fergie Jenkins HOF
Bert Blyleven HOF
Jim Palmer HOF
Sandy Koufax HOF
Bob Gibson HOF
Don Drysdale HOF
Catfish Hunter HOF
Juan Marichal HOF
Jim Bunning HOF
................................
Generation 6 1980's to 1990's
Greg Maddux future HOF
Roger Clemens...He had a Hall of Fame career
Randy Johnson Future HOF
Pedro Martinez Future HOF
Mike Mussina Future HOF
Curt Schilling Future HOF
Tom Glavine Future HOF
John Smoltz Future HOF
Jack Morris..Gets consideration and Buehrle has had a better career.
David Cone...outside chance of making it.

Generation 7 2000's to current
Roy Halladay...He will get in
CC Sabathia....He's got a decent shot but he looks like he's slowing down.
Felix Hernandez...It's still to early to say but he's got a good chance
Justin Verlander...Same boat as Felix Hernandez
Tim Hudson....This injury may cost him
Roy Oswalt....I don't think he has a chance
Cliff Lee...He's got a outside chance if he stays healthy
Bartolo Colon...Even with a steroid deduction he has no chance.
Barry Zito...No chance
Matt Cain...Possibly but he's geting lit up pretty hard this year.
Jake Peavy...Too injury prone
Chris Carpenter....Too many injuries
Dan Haren....No chance
John Lackey....No chance
Clayton Kershaw...Very good chance
Chris Sale...Staring out good
Adam Waignwright....starting out good
Zack Grienke...I would be surprised if he had a long career
AJ Burnett...I would say Buehrle is better
Andy Pettite..steroid deduction
Johan Santana...he has a good argument on being better than Buehrle but he looks like he's finished.
Cole Hamels....Possibly but I doubt he keeps it up.
Jered Weaver...He's looking strong.
Stephen Strasburg...Has potential
Matt Harvey....Might be injury prone.
Tim Lincecum...He'll probably be a reliever soon which may help his chances.

Mark Buehrle will have a top 8 career out of these guys.

Each generation will produce at least 8 Hall of Famer pitchers. I don't see too many of Mark Buehrle's generation having better overall careers than him.

Good luck with that thought process.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 01:46 AM
Good luck with that thought process.

I just find it kinda interesting where Buehrle stands among pitchers of this generation. Topps baseball cards have even added war to the back of thier baseball cards so that's gotta tell you that war is becoming a pretty big deal. It also wouldn't surprise me if Buehrle finishes with more career victorys than both Roy Halladay and CC Sabathia and I don't see anyone else winning more in the near future so some of these old school stats could work in his favor too. Like I said before, if Buehrle can maintain 200 innings for 3 or 4 more years, I find it hard to believe he won't be mentioned for The Hall of Fame.

insp
08-31-2013, 05:24 AM
MB does not belong in the HOF unless Billy Pierce gets in it first.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 09:29 AM
MB does not belong in the HOF unless Billy Pierce gets in it first.

Well Billy Pierce deserves to be in but Buehrle shouldn't be penalized for voters mistakes. Personally I think Pierce was better than every pitcher in his generation except for Spahn, Roberts, Feller and Paige.

Billy Pierce 18 seasons
211wins, 3.27era, 3306ip, 1999k, 119era+, 53.1war
Mark Buehrle 14 seasons
185wins, 3.83era, 2855ip, 1644k, 118era+,55.2war

I would say Buehrle and Pierce are pretty close. I think Pierce is a little better though. But again in 3 or 4 more years this might not be as close as it is now.

PaleHoser
08-31-2013, 05:43 PM
I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?

Brian26
08-31-2013, 07:37 PM
If he puts up 3 more 200 inning seasons he will.

He won't even get 10% of the votes if he puts up 200 innings for 5 more years in a row.

If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.

chicagowhitesox1
08-31-2013, 08:08 PM
If he pitches five more years of 200-inning ball, I would assume he would still be starting somewhat effectively (not relegated to the bullpen). That would be a total of 19 years in the league. Not many pitchers last 19 years.

I'm not saying he's going into the HOF, but after 19 years, he surely would garner >10% of the vote.

Especially in Buehrle's era. He's never been a top 5 pitcher but all of these top 5 pitchers have all fizzled out, Buehrle just keeps going. I agree with the poster who pointed out that he would never want a guy like Buehrle to start a big game but I sure would want a guy like Buehrle on my team for 16 or 17 years.

waldo_the_wolf
09-22-2013, 02:07 AM
Congratulations to Burls, he has now pitched 200 innings with double-digit wins in 13 straight years. Interestingly, he's become a lot more of a strikeout pitcher this year. And I agree that if he pitches another five or six years at his normal rate, he will probably get a few hall of fame votes but that's it.

Brian26
04-14-2014, 10:34 PM
Don't mean to stir up hurt feelings, but this is pretty awesome. I usually don't watch Quick Pitch in the morning on MLB, but this was literally the first thing I saw when I turned the tv on this morning. Had to record it quickly so I could grab a screen pic later.

This one is for Little Nell....

doublem23
04-15-2014, 08:16 AM
I saw that, too. I chuckled. Who new MLB Network was reading our boards for inspiration?

ChiSoxGal85
04-15-2014, 08:19 AM
I saw that too and also LOLd. Kudos for grabbing the screen shot, Brian26! Unfortunately I missed the actual segment - was it on that game we were bickering about earlier, or just a general piece on Buerhle?

doublem23
04-15-2014, 08:26 AM
I saw that too and also LOLd. Kudos for grabbing the screen shot, Brian26! Unfortunately I missed the actual segment - was it on that game we were bickering about earlier, or just a general piece on Buerhle?

It was kind of half talking about his strong start to the 2014 season (a far cry from last year's miserable start he endured in Toronto) and also his win over the Orioles Sunday afternoon...

Though, that performance against Baltimore was pretty much pure, classic Buehrle... 7 IP, 2 K, 0 BB, almost 1/2 his pitches to contact...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL201404130.shtml

waldo_the_wolf
04-15-2014, 04:03 PM
Dare I say once again how much I wish he never left the Sox.

Brian26
04-15-2014, 09:31 PM
I think I heard it correctly, he's got a 0.86 ERA so far. I don't expect that to last, but good for him. Edit- 2 runs in 21 IP. Wow.

ChiSoxGal85
04-15-2014, 09:39 PM
Maybe Toronto will be selling in July, and the Sox will be buying?

CanBuehrleWait
04-16-2014, 10:29 AM
Bring Em Back!

GoSox2K3
04-17-2014, 08:25 AM
Buehrle's 4-year contract doesn't look so stupid anymore, does it? Remember all the talk on WSI on how awful the deal was. He'll be untradeable with all the money he's owed!

Next year is already the last year of his contract. I'd hardly call him an albatross for Toronto.

In hindsight, the Sox goofed when JR told a Sox legend to go take a bigger contract elsewhere and then gave Danks a $65M contract.

LITTLE NELL
04-17-2014, 08:31 AM
Don't mean to stir up hurt feelings, but this is pretty awesome. I usually don't watch Quick Pitch in the morning on MLB, but this was literally the first thing I saw when I turned the tv on this morning. Had to record it quickly so I could grab a screen pic later.

This one is for Little Nell....

Thanks Brian.

Brian26
04-19-2014, 02:48 PM
Toronto beats Cleveland 5-0.

Buehrle pitches seven innings, four hits, no runs.

Buehrle's now 4-0 and lowers his ERA to 0.64.

DSpivack
04-19-2014, 03:15 PM
Toronto beats Cleveland 5-0.

Buehrle pitches seven innings, four hits, no runs.

Buehrle's now 4-0 and lowers his ERA to 0.64.
Only fewer win than the Astros and Diamondbacks and tied with some other team.

Soxman219
04-19-2014, 07:00 PM
Cy Young?

chicagowhitesox1
04-19-2014, 09:07 PM
If he puts up a top 5 Cy Young season, I think he will get some serious consideration for the Hall of Fame.

soxfanreggie
04-20-2014, 09:00 AM
If he puts up a top 5 Cy Young season, I think he will get some serious consideration for the Hall of Fame.

He may need to win one to get in unless he puts up a couple straight top-5 vote-getting seasons. Right now, he only has one top-5 finish for his career. I feel bad for him because he should have a much better record than he does for how he has pitched and his ERA. He hasn't had a 20-win season yet, and he probably should have had a few already (ex 2002, 2005).

Let's hope it's MB and Sale finishing 1-2 in the voting. I'd love to see Sale win it, but I'm not sure he'll get the backing to do it yet this year. I'd put money on him winning one by 2017 though with a few top-5 finishes.

sunofgold
04-20-2014, 10:35 PM
Buehrle has a great chance to make Hall of Fame. Especially if he can get to 300 wins. He has record of 45 straight batters retired. He has gold gloves, all star appearances, ring, a no-no, a perfect game. He had a long string of games where he pitche at least 6 innings.

He has been the King of Consistency

kittle42
04-21-2014, 09:39 AM
Buehrle has a great chance to make Hall of Fame. Especially if he can get to 300 wins. He has record of 45 straight batters retired. He has gold gloves, all star appearances, ring, a no-no, a perfect game. He had a long string of games where he pitche at least 6 innings.

This has been beaten to death on these boards, but no way, no chance is Mark Buehrle a HOFer, and no way he wins 300 games unless he pitches until he's 45.

Baseball Reference's HOF Indicators (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml) are pretty good

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doublem23
04-21-2014, 09:49 AM
This has been beaten to death on these boards, but no way, no chance is Mark Buehrle a HOFer, and no way he wins 300 games unless he pitches until he's 45.

Baseball Reference's HOF Indicators (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml) are pretty good

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I agree with you, but what is interesting about Buehrle's HOF case when it comes to advances sabremetrics is that Buehrle could potentially pass 3 HOFers on the JAWS leaderboard before his current contract is up; he will almost definitely pass Whitey Ford this year, and could potentially pass up the great Sandy Koufax, as well (and, you could add a 4th to the list if Andy Pettitte is elected, depending on how NY-biased the BBWAA still is).

But he's still far down the list. There are currently 59 SP in the Hall of Fame, Buehrle is #94 all-time according to JAWS. His score is almost 16 points lower than the average HOF SP.

chicagowhitesox1
04-21-2014, 09:58 AM
This has been beaten to death on these boards, but no way, no chance is Mark Buehrle a HOFer, and no way he wins 300 games unless he pitches until he's 45.

Baseball Reference's HOF Indicators (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml) are pretty good

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Buehrle has had a much better career than all those guys. I think Buehrle can get in with 2 more solid seasons. You can tell that the press even loves him with all the fan fare he's getting too.

kittle42
04-21-2014, 10:03 AM
Buehrle has had a much better career than all those guys. I think Buehrle can get in with 2 more solid seasons

I love Buehrle as much as the rest of us do, but the first statement is an exaggeration, and the second is simply not going to happen.

WhiteSox5187
04-21-2014, 11:14 AM
I love Buehrle as much as the rest of us do, but the first statement is an exaggeration, and the second is simply not going to happen.

Exactly, he is a very good pitcher and will get his number retired by the White Sox but that's about it. He was never an elite pitcher and I highly doubt he ever will be.

sunofgold
04-21-2014, 04:20 PM
he is getting better and hasn't peaked yet. He doesn't throw hard and is just using his baseball experience and wisdom to get better.

Better pitch selection or more deception. Maybe Buehrle who has always been very good has figured out how to be great. Taking it to the next level.

Also has a chance to tie or beat Maddux's record of 20 season pitched with 10 or more victories. Throw in his perfect game, no hitter, and 45 straight retired and you can start to build a solid case for him.

Good article from ex-player Gabe Kapler. Shows how smart of a pitcher Buehrle is.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/mark-buehrle-continues-to-baffle-foes-but-how-good-is-he-really-042014

Chez
04-21-2014, 04:23 PM
he is getting better and hasn't peaked yet. He doesn't throw hard and is just using his baseball experience and wisdom to get better.

Better pitch selection or more deception. Maybe Buehrle who has always been very good has figured out how to be great. Taking it to the next level.


With apologies to Doub:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zxWjmlmCK1c/UJWlgI1lQjI/AAAAAAAAGW0/9tMwm_r0EDs/s640/facepalm-Homer-Simpson.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zxWjmlmCK1c/UJWlgI1lQjI/AAAAAAAAGW0/9tMwm_r0EDs/s1600/facepalm-Homer-Simpson.jpg)

kittle42
04-21-2014, 04:41 PM
he is getting better and hasn't peaked yet.

Very, very, very, very unlikely.

salty99
04-21-2014, 04:50 PM
Very, very, very, very unlikely.


Agreed, plus he has talked about retirement many times, which could happen after his current contract is up.

doublem23
04-21-2014, 08:53 PM
he is getting better and hasn't peaked yet. He doesn't throw hard and is just using his baseball experience and wisdom to get better.

Better pitch selection or more deception. Maybe Buehrle who has always been very good has figured out how to be great. Taking it to the next level

http://bit.ly/1i4qJWx

Learn it, live it, love it

sunofgold
04-21-2014, 10:30 PM
He has a new and improved EPR. I hope that we don't have to face him.

chicagowhitesox1
04-22-2014, 09:02 AM
Friday he's facing Boston. If he can somehow beat them, i'm saying he's for real. I don't remember him ever pitching this good so maybe he has made some huge change. His era plus is 640 right now....of course it will drop but if he can maintain a 130-140 era plus then he will have had a cy Young type season.

Right now he is
-Leading in WAR...1.6...pretty amazing
-Lowest era...0.64
-most wins....4
-adjusted era plus...640

-He has yet to give up a homerun in 28 innings.
-Has a WHIP of 0.929
-His K/9 is 6.1...The past two seasons this beats out all his Whitesox years except one.

-His 13 straight seasons of 200 innings is probably the most overlooked part of his resume. I think with this start he's having, people are going to start noticing him more.

kittle42
04-22-2014, 09:41 AM
Friday he's facing Boston. If he can somehow beat them, i'm saying he's for real.

Buehrle and Harang for Cy Young. Book it!

voodoochile
04-22-2014, 09:41 AM
Buehrle is the very definition of a crafty lefty. With his easy, consistent motion and a style that depends on motion and speed changes and not overpowering people he could pitch until hes 42 or older if he wants and barring injury.

If he continues to pitch like this no reason he hasn't got at least one more multi-year contract in him. Maybe the Sox can bring him home. Heck maybe a mid-season trade next year if they are in the hunt and Toronto isn't. That would be teh awesome...

TheVulture
04-24-2014, 09:19 PM
Very, very, very, very unlikely.

I don't know, I think I have to agree with sun. At this rate Buehrle should be putting up negative ERAs by 2016. I made this chart to illustrate:
http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20100816/Chart-Downward-Trend-1635446.jpg

sunofgold
04-24-2014, 10:56 PM
I also heard through "my sources" that buehrle is working on a knuckleball. Then he can pitch at an older age than Moyer. That will get him 400 wins at least. You cannot deny a 400 game winner a pass to HOF!

Honestly if you are a pitcher you are better off being a control pitcher than a power pitcher (in most cases). You will have a longer career. Ks are sexy but an out is an out.

DSpivack
04-24-2014, 11:54 PM
I also heard through "my sources" that buehrle is working on a knuckleball. Then he can pitch at an older age than Moyer. That will get him 400 wins at least. You cannot deny a 400 game winner a pass to HOF!

Honestly if you are a pitcher you are better off being a control pitcher than a power pitcher (in most cases). You will have a longer career. Ks are sexy but an out is an out.
Sexy, but fascist. Ground balls are more democratic, after all.

gobears1987
04-25-2014, 01:03 AM
The single most amazing thing about Buehrle is with all of those 200 IP seasons, he has not spent so much as a day on the DL as far as I can recall.

Is there any pitcher in the last 20 years who pitched at least a dozen full seasons as a starter who can say that?

Golden Sox
04-25-2014, 06:17 AM
You would think that Buehrle would not get into the Hall of Fame. Then again, if 2 mopes like Walter O'Malley and Ron/Pizza Man/Scab/Santo got voted into the Hall, anything is possible. These voters who vote for the Hall of Fame have a tendency to rewrite history so we'll just have to wait and see if Buerhle gets in.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 11:00 AM
I'm actually pretty excited about his start tonight. I hope he does well, but part of me really feels he's gonna get hit hard. He's gotta be due for a bad game especially with the way Pedroia and Ortiz hit him.. The one thing about Buehrle is he can have a bad game or two and it doesn't seem to affect him. I'm predicting 6 innings with 4 strikeouts and 4 earned runs....I'm hoping for at least a quality start though. His current season war is 1.6, hoping he adds at least 0.3 tonight.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 11:05 AM
The single most amazing thing about Buehrle is with all of those 200 IP seasons, he has not spent so much as a day on the DL as far as I can recall.

Is there any pitcher in the last 20 years who pitched at least a dozen full seasons as a starter who can say that?

I don't think theres been a more durable pitcher even in the last 30-35 years. Maybe Roy Halladay or Jack Morris but I would still give the nod to Buehrle for durability over them.

MISoxfan
04-25-2014, 11:33 AM
No way does Roy Halladay get the nod over Buehrle in a durability contest.

Chez
04-25-2014, 11:40 AM
I don't think theres been a more durable pitcher even in the last 30-35 years. Maybe Roy Halladay or Jack Morris but I would still give the nod to Buehrle for durability over them.

Nolan Ryan says "hi."

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 12:00 PM
Nolan Ryan says "hi."

Nolan Ryan is not a good example to use, I'm not saying he used roids but if there was a way to find out the truth, I would bet everything I own, that he did use. Plus in the past 35 years, Ryan was injured in 1982, 1983, and 1986 along with 1992 and 1993. Mark Buehrle says Bye.

jdm2662
04-25-2014, 12:06 PM
Nolan Ryan is not a good example to use, I'm not saying he used roids but if there was a way to find out the truth, I would bet everything I own, that he did use. Plus in the past 35 years, Ryan was injured in 1982, 1983, and 1986 along with 1992 and 1993. Mark Buehrle says Bye.

In 1992 and 1993 he was 45 and 46.

doublem23
04-25-2014, 12:06 PM
Nolan Ryan is not a good example to use, I'm not saying he used roids but if there was a way to find out the truth, I would bet everything I own, that he did use. Plus in the past 35 years, Ryan was injured in 1982, 1983, and 1986 along with 1992 and 1993. Mark Buehrle says Bye.

He still pitched 200 innings in 1990 at the age of 43.

That's pretty durable.

I get that we like Mark Buehrle because he was on the Sox, but come on now folks, let's not be ridiculous.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 12:12 PM
He still pitched 200 innings in 1990 at the age of 43.

That's pretty durable.

I get that we like Mark Buehrle because he was on the Sox, but come on now folks, let's not be ridiculous.

Roger Clemens pitched 200 innings at age 42.

Chez
04-25-2014, 12:20 PM
Nolan Ryan is not a good example to use, I'm not saying he used roids but if there was a way to find out the truth, I would bet everything I own, that he did use. Plus in the past 35 years, Ryan was injured in 1982, 1983, and 1986 along with 1992 and 1993. Mark Buehrle says Bye.

Actually, I think you just said that you do think Nolan Ryan used PED's. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there's as much evidence connecting Ryan to steroids as there is connecting Buehrle to steroids -- NONE.

I love Buehrle, but c'mon.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 12:48 PM
Actually, I think you just said that you do think Nolan Ryan used PED's. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there's as much evidence connecting Ryan to steroids as there is connecting Buehrle to steroids -- NONE.

I love Buehrle, but c'mon.

Well I admit, I have no proof about Ryan but I still think during Ryans 1978-1993 years, Buehrle was more durable than him. Overall career Ryan does beat him out.

kittle42
04-25-2014, 03:07 PM
I see in my break from this thread we now have Buehrle being mentioned in the same breath as Ryan and Clemens.

If Mark Buehrle had never pitched for the White Sox, the notion of him being a HOF-worthy player to the folks who think he is would be laughable.

PalehosePlanet
04-25-2014, 04:16 PM
The single most amazing thing about Buehrle is with all of those 200 IP seasons, he has not spent so much as a day on the DL as far as I can recall.

Is there any pitcher in the last 20 years who pitched at least a dozen full seasons as a starter who can say that?

Greg Maddux had a stretch of 18 of 19 seasons over 200 IP. The year he didn't - 199.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 04:48 PM
Greg Maddux had a stretch of 18 of 19 seasons over 200 IP. The year he didn't - 199.

I think he got 199 during a strike year too.

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 04:55 PM
I see in my break from this thread we now have Buehrle being mentioned in the same breath as Ryan and Clemens.

If Mark Buehrle had never pitched for the White Sox, the notion of him being a HOF-worthy player to the folks who think he is would be laughable.

Well Nolan Ryan was pretty overrated. Buehrle has had 3 seasons with era plus over 130, Nolan Ryan has only had 4. Plus Ryan had a whip which is kind of the benchmark for pitchers which was pretty bad while playing in pitchers parks and for the most part during a pitchers era. I know Buehrle isn't as good as Ryan but I don't think Ryan and Buehrle will be too far off when Buehrle does retire as long as he has 2-3 more good seasons. Currently I have Ryan as the 23rd best pitcher of all time. Buehrle can possibly make my top 40.

Clemens is in my top 10, he's number 2 with no ped discount.

SBSoxFan
04-25-2014, 10:12 PM
Toronto IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Buehrle(L, 4-1) 5.1 12 7 6 3 0 1 2.16

/end thread

chicagowhitesox1
04-25-2014, 10:27 PM
Toronto IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Buehrle(L, 4-1) 5.1 12 7 6 3 0 1 2.16

/end thread

Yep he had a decent first inning but at least he got 5.1 innings in. I didn't think he'd get this roughed up though. His war will probably drop down to around 1.2 for the season because of this.

chicagowhitesox1
05-07-2014, 09:25 PM
Beat Cliff Lee tonight. Pitched a very good game tonight too.

soxfanreggie
05-07-2014, 11:21 PM
Beat Cliff Lee tonight. Pitched a very good game tonight too.

If no Sox pitcher wins it (with Sale out, no real shot), I want MB's stats to be as gaudy as they can be so he can get a Cy Young award. Adding one of those would really bolster his resume. He has a lot of work to do over the next 3-4 years to have a real shot at it.

cheezheadsoxfan
05-07-2014, 11:48 PM
Dare I dream?

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2014-05-04/mlb-trade-rumors-blue-jays-mark-buehrle--jose-bautista-edwin-encarnacion

voodoochile
05-07-2014, 11:54 PM
Dare I dream?

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2014-05-04/mlb-trade-rumors-blue-jays-mark-buehrle--jose-bautista-edwin-encarnacion

I would love to see him back, but I can't see JR authorizing that kind of money. Jays would have to eat a fair chunk of that contract the next two years. Meanwhile a team like the Yankees would simply laugh and say, "fine, send him over."

waldo_the_wolf
05-08-2014, 12:35 AM
I hope he wins 20+ games and the Cy Young this year too. Though I wonder if that happened, would it lead him to want to retire sooner?

chicagowhitesox1
05-08-2014, 01:54 AM
I hope he wins 20+ games and the Cy Young this year too. Though I wonder if that happened, would it lead him to want to retire sooner?

If he retires in the same way Mussina did, I will lose a little respect for him. Mussina won 20 games his last year and was probably 1-2 years away from 300 wins. I know we always hear about Buehrle retiring early and I can handle that but if he's close to some Hall of Fame milestones and quits then I wont look at him the same way.

FallOfFingolfin
05-08-2014, 02:41 PM
If he retires in the same way Mussina did, I will lose a little respect for him. Mussina won 20 games his last year and was probably 1-2 years away from 300 wins. I know we always hear about Buehrle retiring early and I can handle that but if he's close to some Hall of Fame milestones and quits then I wont look at him the same way.

Why does it bother you that people don't gauge their self-fulfillment by outsider's perceptions of them?

SBSoxFan
05-12-2014, 10:03 PM
Buehrle beat LAA tonight. He's now 7-1 this season, and 7 wins away from 200 in his career.

waldo_the_wolf
05-12-2014, 10:44 PM
5 walks today, that's not so vintage.

soxfanreggie
05-12-2014, 10:44 PM
Buehrle beat LAA tonight. He's now 7-1 this season, and 7 wins away from 200 in his career.

I think he has a great shot at hitting it this year. If not for a lot of seasons here where he should have had more wins, we'd be talking about him going for 220 right now.

waldo_the_wolf
05-12-2014, 11:07 PM
I think he has a great shot at hitting it this year. If not for a lot of seasons here where he should have had more wins, we'd be talking about him going for 220 right now.

And again mentioning Nolan Ryan, he very well should have won north of 350 career games. He had terrible run support in some of his Astros years.

Brian26
05-12-2014, 11:17 PM
It's a shame Buehrle isn't still here. He'd be in year 15 with the Sox, which is almost unheard of for a pitcher with the same team. Mariano did it for NYY. He would have taken less money to stay.

Noneck
05-12-2014, 11:39 PM
If not for a lot of seasons here where he should have had more wins, we'd be talking about him going for 220 right now.

The Sox averaged 86 wins while buehrle was here. Not many teams averaged more wins during that period.

Moses_Scurry
05-13-2014, 08:20 AM
With all of the Tommy John surgeries this year, what is going to be the tipping point that jacks up the cost of pitchers like Buehrle? Having a Strasburg, Sale, or Jose Fernandez is pretty great for the times that you have them, but over time, a pitcher like Buehrle is going to provide significantly more value for your team. Injuries, especially to pitchers, are very disruptive to a team, and having somebody like Buehrle as a rock in your rotation for many years will alleviate that. The Marlins were looking like surprise contenders. Now their season in sunk.

thomas35forever
05-13-2014, 12:52 PM
Buehrle beat LAA tonight. He's now 7-1 this season, and 7 wins away from 200 in his career.
Not to mention the first 7-game winner in baseball.

chicagowhitesox1
05-13-2014, 02:53 PM
It was good to see Buehrle beat the Angels. A lot of people are saying he's only beaten easy teams.

MISoxfan
05-17-2014, 09:42 AM
Over the past 365 days Buehrle has made 32 starts. He's 18-8 with a 3.02 ERA in that period.

chicagowhitesox1
05-22-2014, 03:27 PM
He's gotta play Boston again. As of now he's got a 2-0 lead. Last time out vs Boston he got pretty roughed up.

chicagowhitesox1
05-22-2014, 05:38 PM
Looks like he'll be 8-1. His line today in Fenway. 7 innings, 7 hits, 2 earned runs, 5 strikeouts with no walks. His next start will be against Tampa Bay at home. His season war should go up to 2.6 or 2.7.

soxfanreggie
05-22-2014, 06:21 PM
Keep it up MB! I'd love to see a CY on his mantle.

Brian26
05-22-2014, 07:12 PM
Looks like he'll be 8-1. His line today in Fenway. 7 innings, 7 hits, 2 earned runs, 5 strikeouts with no walks. His next start will be against Tampa Bay at home. His season war should go up to 2.6 or 2.7.

Unreal. Easily beat Lester and the Red Sox today. I hope he keeps it going. I suppose he could easily start the ASG for the AL if he keeps it up for a few more weeks.

SBSoxFan
05-22-2014, 10:57 PM
Unreal. Easily beat Lester and the Red Sox today. I hope he keeps it going. I suppose he could easily start the ASG for the AL if he keeps it up for a few more weeks.

And the bullpen blew the game in his previous start before tonight. The guy could be 9-1.

Hitmen77
05-23-2014, 10:20 AM
It's a shame Buehrle isn't still here. He'd be in year 15 with the Sox, which is almost unheard of for a pitcher with the same team. Mariano did it for NYY. He would have taken less money to stay.

That's what I think too. The Sox pretty much told him to leave. JR himself told him to go out there and get the best deal possible. They may have been able to lock him up for less than the Marlins deal if they worked out an extension.

After the 2011 fiasco, I figured that the Sox didn't want to keep Buehrle because they were cutting payroll, entering a rebuilding phase and didn't want to give MB another $50M or so contract.....but then they turned around and extended Danks for $65M. So, what it boils down to is that Sox brass picked Danks over Buehrle to anchor the bullpen in the coming years.

Sure, a lot of us figured that MB's best days were behind him at that point. But Sox management are the ones who get paid the big bucks to make the right decisions about these kind of things and they definitely made the wrong choice here.

So much for Buehrle's deal with Miami being a horrible one, an albatross for his team, and one that made him virtually untradeable.

chicagowhitesox1
05-23-2014, 01:16 PM
I looked up a bunch of pitchers stats when they reached age 35 and I think Buehrle is looking like a future Hall of Famer more and more.

Mark Buehrle.....averages 3.8 war per season....season pending.
194wins 3.81era 439gs 2949ip 1700k 1.277whip 119era+ 57.3war
Tom Glavine......averages 3.7 war per season
224wins 3.40era 469gs 3120ip 1927k 1.290whip 112era+ 54.8war
Nolan Ryan........averages 3.3 war per season
205wins 3.11era 453gs 3324ip 3494k 1.297whip 112era+ 52.8war
Don Sutton........averages 3.4 war per season
230wins 3.07era 517gs 3729ip 2652k 1.117whip 111era+ 50.8war

I would say he's much better than these three
Tommy John.....averages 2.6 war per season.
171wins 2.99era 410gs 2806ip 1611k 1.229whip 116era+ 39.3war
Jack Morris.......averages 2.7 war per season
198wins 3.73era 408gs 3042ip 1980k 1.266whip 108era+ 37.9war
Jerry Koosman..averages 3.3 war per season
140wins 3.09era 346gs 2544ip 1799k 1.219whip 113era+ 39.5war
.................................................. ....................................
A determination of a war season
-1 war...There is somebody in minors that could do better.
0 war....Replacement player..Any value above that is wins above replacement..Think AAA player.
1 war....This is a below average player but still better than the guy in the minors...Think #4 starter.
2 war...Average player..think #3 starter
3 war...above average player..think #2 starter
4 war...Borderline All-Star season...think #1 starter but not Cy Young Candidate.
5 war...Easy All-Star..one of the top 5 pitchers in the league that season.
6 war...Serious Cy Young Candidate.
7 war...More often than not, the best pitcher in the league.
8-9 war...The kind of season people still talk about 50 years later.
10 war....All time historical season.

If Buehrle keeps it up this year, he'll have six 5.0 war type of seasons.

TDog
05-23-2014, 01:53 PM
That's what I think too. The Sox pretty much told him to leave. JR himself told him to go out there and get the best deal possible. They may have been able to lock him up for less than the Marlins deal if they worked out an extension.

After the 2011 fiasco, I figured that the Sox didn't want to keep Buehrle because they were cutting payroll, entering a rebuilding phase and didn't want to give MB another $50M or so contract.....but then they turned around and extended Danks for $65M. So, what it boils down to is that Sox brass picked Danks over Buehrle to anchor the bullpen in the coming years.

Sure, a lot of us figured that MB's best days were behind him at that point. But Sox management are the ones who get paid the big bucks to make the right decisions about these kind of things and they definitely made the wrong choice here.

So much for Buehrle's deal with Miami being a horrible one, an albatross for his team, and one that made him virtually untradeable.

I read that Buehrle went to the chairman, told him what the Marlins were offering and heard from Reinsdorf that there was no way the Sox could match it. I don't know that I read anyone in any medium suggesting that the Sox should match the Marlins offer. I don't know of anyone who would suggest the contract was a good one for the Marlins.

I never got the impression that the Sox didn't want to keep Buehrle. And I got the impression that Reinsdorf told Buehrle to take the Marlins deal out of respect to Buehrle and what the contract would mean to him in the limited major earning years of a major league pitcher. Buehrle had been such an important part of the White Sox since 2000, and I never got the impression that Reinsdorf wasn't loyal to that.

I was sorry to see Buehrle leave. I remain a Buehrle fan, and I'm not a fan of most players who leave the White Sox. But I blame the Marlins for his departure.

sunofgold
05-23-2014, 02:04 PM
Looks like a HOF pitcher to me. Numbers starting to look comparable to ex-White Sox Tom Seaver. Buehrle hasn't peaked yet. He is using his experience and EPR to perfection. Hope that we don't have to face him. He is a beast.

FallOfFingolfin
05-23-2014, 02:13 PM
Looks like a HOF pitcher to me. Numbers starting to look comparable to ex-White Sox Tom Seaver.

What numbers are you looking at?:scratch:

chicagowhitesox1
05-23-2014, 02:47 PM
Looks like a HOF pitcher to me. Numbers starting to look comparable to ex-White Sox Tom Seaver. Buehrle hasn't peaked yet. He is using his experience and EPR to perfection. Hope that we don't have to face him. He is a beast.

I think he's becoming like 1984 Tom Seaver who was very good but 1969 Seaver is why Seaver is a top 10 pitcher of all time. I think Buehrle can end up being a top 35-40 pitcher of all time which is good enough for Cooperstown.

Tom Seaver..averaged 6.4 war per season through age 35
245wins 2.60era 475gs 3622ip 2988k 1.077whip 136era+ 89.0war
Mark Buehrle..averaged 3.8 war per season through age 35
194wins 3.81era 439gs 2949ip 1700k 1.277whip 119era+ 57.3war

Tom Seaver after age 36 averaged 2.9 war per season.
66wins 3.67era 172gs 1160ip 652k 1.257whip 108era+ 17.3war

I do think Buehrle can be a better pitcher than Seaver was after age 36 which shrinks the gap between the two but only if Buehrle does keep it up. Like I said Buehrle will never be a top 10 let alone top 20 pitcher even with a strong decline.

Hitmen77
05-23-2014, 04:00 PM
I read that Buehrle went to the chairman, told him what the Marlins were offering and heard from Reinsdorf that there was no way the Sox could match it. I don't know that I read anyone in any medium suggesting that the Sox should match the Marlins offer. I don't know of anyone who would suggest the contract was a good one for the Marlins.



Thanks for the clarification. If that's how it went down, then at least I feel better that the Sox didn't tell him to look for the best offer up front.

I agree that no one thought the Buehrle contract was a good one for the Marlins at the time. I'm just saying that things have worked out differently than we all thought at the time. In hindsight, it's not such a bad deal for (now the) Blue Jays at this point than many of us were professing in 2011. MB is on fire right now and earning his pay. Even if he doesn't keep it up and his performance fades, next year is the last year of his contract. So, it's not like Buehrle's team is saddled with a long-term bad contract.

sunofgold
05-23-2014, 09:55 PM
If Buehrle keeps this up, he will get some votes for league MVP.

Noneck
05-23-2014, 10:44 PM
Buehrle may finally sniff a cy young award.

MISoxfan
05-24-2014, 10:25 AM
If he can put up his career averages from here on out and the Blue Jays finish in the race he'll probably get his first top 5 CY. I doubt he'll do much more than that, but I hope so.

Mark Buehrle has had a very interesting and has done amazing things considering he's never had dominant stuff, but unless he surprises everyone with a CY this season he's not going to the HOF.

I get that some people are mocking this thread, but Buehrle was a favorite for many of us, and with good reason. He has pinpoint control, a great move, and fields his position very well and this helped create a career that greatly exceeded expectations. He also has his perfect game, record for consecutive retired batters, fast pace, and no-hitter. Those things don't get you into the HOF, but there is something endearing about that. There are many articles from different fan bases out there trying to figure out what it is that has allowed him to outperform the league year after year.

SBSoxFan
05-24-2014, 04:57 PM
If he can put up his career averages from here on out and the Blue Jays finish in the race he'll probably get his first top 5 CY. I doubt he'll do much more than that, but I hope so.

Mark Buehrle has had a very interesting and has done amazing things considering he's never had dominant stuff, but unless he surprises everyone with a CY this season he's not going to the HOF.

I get that some people are mocking this thread, but Buehrle was a favorite for many of us, and with good reason. He has pinpoint control, a great move, and fields his position very well and this helped create a career that greatly exceeded expectations. He also has his perfect game, record for consecutive retired batters, fast pace, and no-hitter. Those things don't get you into the HOF, but there is something endearing about that. There are many articles from different fan bases out there trying to figure out what it is that has allowed him to outperform the league year after year.

He finished 5th in Cy Young voting in 2005.

I know I'm extremely biased; however, I wonder if pitchers will be looked at in a different light in the years to come with regards to the HOF, especially involving wins. Buehrle currently has the third most wins among active pitchers (194). Tim Hudson (209) and CC Sabathia (208) already have over 200 wins; Bartolo Colon (192) will most likely win 200 games. It's possible no one else on the list will win 200 games; the next closest is A.J. Burnett with 150 wins, but, currently in his 16 season, he won't sniff 200 wins.

Even Justin Verlander, for example, is 58 wins away and he's currently in his 10th season. He's signed through 2019. So, he's probably the next best bet to reach 200 wins, but it's not a lock, and he probably better do it by the time his current contract expires because he'll be 36 at the end of it.

TDog
05-24-2014, 05:48 PM
He finished 5th in Cy Young voting in 2005.

I know I'm extremely biased; however, I wonder if pitchers will be looked at in a different light in the years to come with regards to the HOF, especially involving wins. Buehrle currently has the third most wins among active pitchers (194). Tim Hudson (209) and CC Sabathia (208) already have over 200 wins; Bartolo Colon (192) will most likely win 200 games. It's possible no one else on the list will win 200 games; the next closest is A.J. Burnett with 150 wins, but, currently in his 16 season, he won't sniff 200 wins.

Even Justin Verlander, for example, is 58 wins away and he's currently in his 10th season. He's signed through 2019. So, he's probably the next best bet to reach 200 wins, but it's not a lock, and he probably better do it by the time his current contract expires because he'll be 36 at the end of it.

Players certainly are looked at differently, not just when their Hall of Fame eligibility comes up but often a few years later. It wasn't just Ron Santo who only got a few votes when his name came up only to be enshrined later. Luke Appling was only on three of the 251 ballots in 1955, nine years before the writers voted him in.

I was watching Jim Bunning pitch against the Cubs when I was a kid, and Jack Brickhouse was talking about how Bunning didn't have a career that was going to rocket him into the Hall of Fame, but a career that sort of surrounded it. Bunning, who threw both a no-hitter and a perfect game and won 224 games, was inducted 25 years after he pitched his last game.

Buehrle might be one of those guys who gets a lot more respect long after he's gone.

Brian26
05-27-2014, 10:54 PM
Buehrle beats Tampa Bay tonight. He's now 9-1 with a 2.33 ERA.

sunofgold
05-27-2014, 11:46 PM
3 ER in 6 2/3 innings tonite

Don't forget Buehrle pitched during the steroids era and in a hitter's ballpark.

TDog
05-28-2014, 03:02 AM
3 ER in 6 2/3 innings tonite

Don't forget Buehrle pitched during the steroids era and in a hitter's ballpark.

So did Clemens.

But I don't disagree with your point.

TheVulture
05-28-2014, 05:36 AM
If the Sox offered Buerhle the same contract as Danks, there never would have been a Marlins offer. The Sox chose Danks over Buerhle, plain and simple, and KW blew the call.

gobears1987
05-28-2014, 09:44 AM
If the Sox offered Buerhle the same contract as Danks, there never would have been a Marlins offer. The Sox chose Danks over Buerhle, plain and simple, and KW blew the call.

^This

Chez
05-28-2014, 09:54 AM
If Buehrle keeps this up, he will get some votes for league MVP.

Well, sure. If Buehrle he "keeps this up" he will finish the season with a record of 27-3. And if he strings three consecutive 27-3 seasons together, then he will make the HOF. Do you think this is remotely possible?

chicagowhitesox1
05-28-2014, 04:41 PM
This has been beaten to death on these boards, but no way, no chance is Mark Buehrle a HOFer, and no way he wins 300 games unless he pitches until he's 45.

Baseball Reference's HOF Indicators (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml) are pretty good

Similar Pitchers
View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
Compare Stats to Similars (http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_pitch.cgi?I=buehrma01:Mark%20Buehrle&st=career&compage=&age=)


Jimmy Key (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/keyji01.shtml) (928)
Frank Viola (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/violafr01.shtml) (927)
Scott Sanderson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sandesc01.shtml) (923)
Bartolo Colon (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colonba01.shtml) (918)
John Burkett (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/burkejo03.shtml) (916)
Mike Flanagan (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/flanami01.shtml) (912)
Bill Gullickson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gullibi01.shtml) (907)
Ken Holtzman (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/holtzke01.shtml) (907)
Paul Splittorff (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/splitpa01.shtml) (906)
Bob Forsch (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/forscbo01.shtml) (906)



I seriously feel this needs to be updated.

doublem23
05-28-2014, 04:54 PM
I seriously feel this needs to be updated.

I'm pretty sure B-R only updates them once a year, not that you would expect there to be very wild swings even from a year-to-year basis.

chicagowhitesox1
05-28-2014, 05:01 PM
I'm pretty sure B-R only updates them once a year, not that you would expect there to be very wild swings even from a year-to-year basis.

I believe they had the same list last year too. I could see this list being comparable like 4 or 5 years ago but I don't think any of these guys are even close to Buehrle right now.

doublem23
05-28-2014, 05:05 PM
I believe they had the same list last year too. I could see this list being comparable like 4 or 5 years ago but I don't think any of these guys are even close to Buehrle right now.

Uh, no if you look to the right you can see they do a new list every year, they show the top closest player but if you click on the 2-10 you can bring up the whole list.

I don't know what to tell you, the Jimmy Key comparison is pretty much spot on.

chicagowhitesox1
05-28-2014, 05:22 PM
Uh, no if you look to the right you can see they do a new list every year, they show the top closest player but if you click on the 2-10 you can bring up the whole list.

I don't know what to tell you, the Jimmy Key comparison is pretty much spot on.

I can kinda see Jimmy Key but nobody else.

A. Cavatica
05-28-2014, 09:57 PM
Are we going to have to listen to the Buehrle HoF arguments every time he has a good start?

Yeesh.

sunofgold
05-29-2014, 12:25 AM
Verlander got MVP with 24-5 2.40era and also received MVP considerations in other years. If Buehrle keeps this up he will be in the running for MVP and Cy Young. And this works to help his resume to make it to the HOF.

You can start making projections and see that he has a legitimate chance to make it to HOF.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2014, 09:53 AM
Verlander got MVP with 24-5 2.40era and also received MVP considerations in other years. If Buehrle keeps this up he will be in the running for MVP and Cy Young. And this works to help his resume to make it to the HOF.

You can start making projections and see that he has a legitimate chance to make it to HOF.

You go right ahead. But you seem to be the entire person on a board full of big Buehrle fans who thinks he has a legitimate chance.

Moses_Scurry
05-29-2014, 10:11 AM
Verlander got MVP with 24-5 2.40era and also received MVP considerations in other years. If Buehrle keeps this up he will be in the running for MVP and Cy Young. And this works to help his resume to make it to the HOF.

You can start making projections and see that he has a legitimate chance to make it to HOF.

I can confidently say that if Buehrle goes 27-3 with a low 2's ERA, he will win the Cy Young Award and get several MVP votes (assuming the Jays make the post-season).

SI1020
05-29-2014, 03:14 PM
Are we going to have to listen to the Buehrle HoF arguments every time he has a good start?

Yeesh. Whitey Ford, Eppa Rixey, Dizzy Dean, Bob Lemon, Waite Hoyt, Chief Bender, Addie Joss, Jack Chesbro, Herb Pennock, Catfish Hunter, Lefty Gomez, Candy Cummings, Rube Marquard, and Jesse Haines. All starting pitchers in the HOF and all have lower JAWS than Mark Buehrle. Now personally I think to date Buehrle has been an outstanding starter who falls short of being HOF worthy. It's a new era of evaluating stats and if Buehrle can continue to be productive for another 3-5 years who knows how a younger pool of HOF voters will see it.

chicagowhitesox1
05-30-2014, 04:49 PM
Are we going to have to listen to the Buehrle HoF arguments every time he has a good start?

Yeesh.

I'm not going to lie, I will have a hard time not talking about Buehrle if he wins his 10th game Sunday.

soxfanreggie
05-30-2014, 06:37 PM
I'm not going to lie, I will have a hard time not talking about Buehrle if he wins his 10th game Sunday.

I'll talk about him. He's one of the more notable Sox players over the last several decades and is beloved here.

A. Cavatica
05-30-2014, 08:10 PM
Whitey Ford, Eppa Rixey, Dizzy Dean, Bob Lemon, Waite Hoyt, Chief Bender, Addie Joss, Jack Chesbro, Herb Pennock, Catfish Hunter, Lefty Gomez, Candy Cummings, Rube Marquard, and Jesse Haines. All starting pitchers in the HOF and all have lower JAWS than Mark Buehrle. Now personally I think to date Buehrle has been an outstanding starter who falls short of being HOF worthy. It's a new era of evaluating stats and if Buehrle can continue to be productive for another 3-5 years who knows how a younger pool of HOF voters will see it.

Seriously, this could be the weakest argument I've heard. I don't even know what JAWS is and I've been interested in new stats since the first years of the Baseball Abstract.. You can bet the BBWAA doesn't care.

You might as well say he should get in because of his excellent TARP.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/photo-galleries/2011/06/07/mark-buehrle/

SI1020
05-30-2014, 09:20 PM
Seriously, this could be the weakest argument I've heard. I don't even know what JAWS is and I've been interested in new stats since the first years of the Baseball Abstract.. You can bet the BBWAA doesn't care.

You might as well say he should get in because of his excellent TARP.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/photo-galleries/2011/06/07/mark-buehrle/ The next time I'm the slightest bit critical of the newer stats and get hammered for it I'll remember this. Also, I did not say he "should" get in, only inferred that if he continued to climb up the stats ladder that he might get consideration from some saber lovers. I specifically stated that I did not find Buehrle HOF worthy. JAWS is a very big deal to devotees of the newer stats. The Old Guard in the BBWAA will be replaced little by little as time passes. Here is JAWS if you care to look.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

I had no idea this would be such a hot button to you. Usually you get slammed for any hint of criticism of the new stats. I was merely presenting a ranking that is based on WAR which is sacrosanct to many baseball fans.

A. Cavatica
05-30-2014, 09:51 PM
Whitey Ford, Eppa Rixey, Dizzy Dean, Bob Lemon, Waite Hoyt, Chief Bender, Addie Joss, Jack Chesbro, Herb Pennock, Catfish Hunter, Lefty Gomez, Candy Cummings, Rube Marquard, and Jesse Haines. All starting pitchers in the HOF and all have lower JAWS than Mark Buehrle. Now personally I think to date Buehrle has been an outstanding starter who falls short of being HOF worthy. It's a new era of evaluating stats and if Buehrle can continue to be productive for another 3-5 years who knows how a younger pool of HOF voters will see it.

Babe Adams, Mark Langston, Jack Powell, Nap Rucker, Wilbur Cooper, CC Sabathia, Wilbur Wood, Bucky Walters, Jack Stivetts, Tim Hudson, Chuck Finley, Kevin Appier, George Uhle, Ted Breitenstein, Dave Stieb, Silver King, Urban Shocker, Bobby Mathews, David Cone, Jim Whitney. All starting pitchers NOT in the HOF, nor serious contenders for the HOF, and all have higher JAWS than Mark Buehrle.

Buehrle is 93rd on the list.

Rick Reuschel is 45th.

Looks like a poor way to measure HOF performance, if you ask me.

soxfanreggie
06-01-2014, 01:53 PM
MB throwing well so far vs KC. He could pick up #10 here today. It would be really nice to see him start the AS game. He would be the first 2x starter since David Wells (1998 and 2000). MB was actually the last person we had start in an AS game. We have guys this year who could be deserving, but I doubt any will get one thanks to guys like Jeter.

soxfanreggie
06-01-2014, 02:16 PM
MB gives up no runs, only surrenders six hits, in 8 IP. He's now 10-1 with a 2.10 ERA.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 02:30 PM
Hawk giving Ozzie credit for keeping Buehrle in the game and not retiring (to accept the Miami contract). Interesting.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 02:30 PM
Buehrle now 10-1.

chicagowhitesox1
06-01-2014, 02:33 PM
10-1 now. This is pretty amazing. Next up is St. Louis who will probably be his biggest test of the season.

chicagowhitesox1
06-01-2014, 02:38 PM
It's to the point now where I get more excited over a Buehrle start than any other pitcher. It would be amazing if he won 20 games this year.

soxfanreggie
06-01-2014, 03:25 PM
It's to the point now where I get more excited over a Buehrle start than any other pitcher. It would be amazing if he won 20 games this year.

I would love for that to happen. If you look at what he's done in his career, he's put up the numbers before to hit 20 wins but a lot of times just got poor run support. Why stop at 20 though? Why not hit at least 25? :D:

MISoxfan
06-01-2014, 04:27 PM
MB throwing well so far vs KC. He could pick up #10 here today. It would be really nice to see him start the AS game. He would be the first 2x starter since David Wells (1998 and 2000). MB was actually the last person we had start in an AS game. We have guys this year who could be deserving, but I doubt any will get one thanks to guys like Jeter.

They pulled him after 8 with only 104 pitches. They also pulled him once with 8 2/3rds. It's a shame he doesn't have those 2 CG.

chicagowhitesox1
06-01-2014, 05:01 PM
I still find this 200 inning streak amazing.

If he gets 200 innings (currently at 81) he'll have 14 straight seasons of 200 innings or more.

Longest consecutive 200 inning streaks in MLB history.
Cy Young 19
Warren Spahn 17
Gaylord Perry 15
Don Sutton 15
Greg Maddux 14
Phil Niekro 14
Christy Mathewson 14
Mark Buehrle ???? currently 13 straight.

Noneck
06-01-2014, 06:30 PM
Hawk giving Ozzie credit for keeping Buehrle in the game and not retiring (to accept the Miami contract). Interesting.


No one gives up 58M to play a child's game.. All nonsense.

sox1970
06-01-2014, 06:46 PM
No one gives up 58M to play a child's game.. All nonsense.

Yeah, that was a bunch of bull. It's not like Buehrle was going to retire if he didn't get a 4 yr deal after 2011.

Now could he hang them up after 2015? Sure. But as long as he's doing the 200 innings/30+ starts thing, I hope he pitches until that streak ends.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 07:25 PM
No one gives up 58M to play a child's game.. All nonsense.

I think you're misinterpreting what he said. I understood that comment to mean Ozzie had discussed the future (ie 2012 season) with him well before the end of the season, let alone well before the Marlins made the actual offer.

Following Buehrle over the course of his career, there certainly is a history of him contemplating that possibility of retiring early. That wasn't out of the realm of possibility at all. He has always talked about going home and watching his kids grow up.

soxfanreggie
06-01-2014, 07:31 PM
I think you're misinterpreting what he said. I understood that comment to mean Ozzie had discussed the future (ie 2012 season) with him well before the end of the season, let alone well before the Marlins made the actual offer.

Following Buehrle over the course of his career, there certainly is a history of him contemplating that possibility of retiring early. That wasn't out of the realm of possibility at all. He has always talked about going home and watching his kids grow up.

That makes me think he might sign a contract with STL for a few years at the end. Signs point to him having a shot at another ring there too if he does.

Noneck
06-01-2014, 08:00 PM
Following Buehrle over the course of his career, there certainly is a history of him contemplating that possibility of retiring early. That wasn't out of the realm of possibility at all. He has always talked about going home and watching his kids grow up.


As I said No One has ever given up that kind of money to play a childs game. He may have said he contemplated that but that lasted until he found out his worth.

If this was that Ozzie convinced him that he was worth a kings ransom its believable otherwise its nonsense.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 09:52 PM
As I said No One has ever given up that kind of money to play a childs game. He may have said he contemplated that but that lasted until he found out his worth.

If this was that Ozzie convinced him that he was worth a kings ransom its believable otherwise its nonsense.

Why is it unbelievable when Buehrle took significantly less money to play for the Sox in his last two contracts? He has made a point over his career that money is not the most important factor. Is this just Hawk hatred on your part or are you just refusing to believable something is plausible?

Noneck
06-01-2014, 09:58 PM
Why is it unbelievable when Buehrle took significantly less money to play for the Sox in his last two contracts? He has made a point over his career that money is not the most important factor. Is this just Hawk hatred on your part or are you just refusing to believable something is plausible?

Have you ever heard of anyone giving up that kind of money to play a game? Thats my only point, no one gives that kind of money up.

Marqhead
06-01-2014, 09:59 PM
Have you ever heard of anyone giving up that kind of money to play a game? Thats my only point, no one gives that kind of money up.

Gil Meche? :shrug:

Noneck
06-01-2014, 10:16 PM
Gil Meche? :shrug:

He gave up only about 10m and did so because he was an embarrassment and was probably in pain also. Not to watch his kids grow up.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 10:17 PM
Have you ever heard of anyone giving up that kind of money to play a game? Thats my only point, no one gives that kind of money up.

You're either refusing to acknowledge what I've already written and explained, or you're being difficult on purpose.

Brian26
06-01-2014, 10:19 PM
He gave up only about 10m and did so because he was an embarrassment

Unreal.

Noneck
06-01-2014, 10:28 PM
Unreal.

Im not being difficult maybe I am just not understanding. If the point of Harrelsons comment was that Ozzie talked Buehrle into keep playing baseball, thats bs, if its anything else it may be true.

sunofgold
06-02-2014, 09:48 AM
Ask Ozzie. He will tell you if he talked Buehrle into signing and not retiring. The OG always said that he wished that he had 25 Mark Buehrles on his team.

It really is a shame that we let Buehrle go. He should have been a White Sox player for his whole career. Imagine how the rotation would look this year with him in it.

Remember when Buehrle would come out and slide around during rain delays.

chicagowhitesox1
06-04-2014, 02:51 PM
45 hours left until his next start. Edit..69 hours left. He's pitching Saturday.

TaylorStSox
06-04-2014, 06:48 PM
He's had an amazing year, but let's be real. 4x AS. 0 CY. It's not the hall of longevity or the hall of good.

gobears1987
06-04-2014, 06:52 PM
He's had an amazing year, but let's be real. 4x AS. 0 CY. It's not the hall of longevity or the hall of good.

He stands a good chance at CY this year. Yes, he is not HoF though.

TaylorStSox
06-04-2014, 07:02 PM
He stands a good chance at CY this year. Yes, he is not HoF though.

It's June 4th.

HomeFish
06-05-2014, 01:47 AM
It's June 4th.

and he has 10 wins and a 2-something ERA. He's as close to a Cy Young as anyone is in June.

Moses_Scurry
06-05-2014, 07:50 AM
He's had an amazing year, but let's be real. 4x AS. 0 CY. It's not the hall of longevity or the hall of good.

While I am not saying that he is close to being a HOF candidate at this point in time, I think you are underrating longevity. In this day and age with so many Tommy John surgeries and great starting pitchers flaming out young, a guy like Buehrle should definitely be celebrated. Longevity is becoming a very important characteristic for pitchers, and it will become more and more recognized until they can find a way to reverse the current trend that has produced around 20 TJS's so far this year. I don't think Buehrle is a HOF candidate right now, but I also don't think the book is closed on that forever either.

voodoochile
06-05-2014, 10:31 AM
While I am not saying that he is close to being a HOF candidate at this point in time, I think you are underrating longevity. In this day and age with so many Tommy John surgeries and great starting pitchers flaming out young, a guy like Buehrle should definitely be celebrated. Longevity is becoming a very important characteristic for pitchers, and it will become more and more recognized until they can find a way to reverse the current trend that has produced around 20 TJS's so far this year. I don't think Buehrle is a HOF candidate right now, but I also don't think the book is closed on that forever either.

If he can pitch 5 more years (and I can't see why he couldn't) he could make it to 270+ wins pretty easy and that would put him in the ballpark for HOF in today's majors.

sunofgold
06-05-2014, 11:39 AM
It is up to MB and how long he wants to stay in the game. If he pitches as long as Jamie Moyer, he will make the HOF.

If he doesn't make the Hall, it is still fun seeing how close he will get.

Chez
06-05-2014, 01:51 PM
While I am not saying that he is close to being a HOF candidate at this point in time, I think you are underrating longevity. In this day and age with so many Tommy John surgeries and great starting pitchers flaming out young, a guy like Buehrle should definitely be celebrated. Longevity is becoming a very important characteristic for pitchers, and it will become more and more recognized until they can find a way to reverse the current trend that has produced around 20 TJS's so far this year. I don't think Buehrle is a HOF candidate right now, but I also don't think the book is closed on that forever either.


And, ironically, Tommy John with his 288 wins, 3.34 ERA, 3 20-win seasons, 4 all-star games and 6 post-season victories isn't in the HOF.

kittle42
06-05-2014, 01:58 PM
It is up to MB and how long he wants to stay in the game. If he pitches as long as Jamie Moyer, he will make the HOF.

If he doesn't make the Hall, it is still fun seeing how close he will get.

Since like next to no one does, I just don't see it happening.

TDog
06-05-2014, 02:01 PM
And, ironically, Tommy John with his 288 wins, 3.34 ERA, 3 20-win seasons, 4 all-star games and 6 post-season victories isn't in the HOF.

I've often wondered why Tommy John isn't in the Hall of Fame. I've concluded it's because he wasn't a very good for so long and that late Tommy John is what people remember. Still, I would have voted for him ahead of Blyleven.

Of course, Tommy John is more famous because of his surgery than he would be in the Hall of Fame without any surgery named for his, so there is some consolation.

Noneck
06-05-2014, 02:08 PM
And, ironically, Tommy John with his 288 wins, 3.34 ERA, 3 20-win seasons, 4 all-star games and 6 post-season victories isn't in the HOF.


And god forbid if we bring up the Sox best lefty, Billy Pierce.

kittle42
06-05-2014, 02:36 PM
I've often wondered why Tommy John isn't in the Hall of Fame. I've concluded it's because he wasn't a very good for so long and that late Tommy John is what people remember. Still, I would have voted for him ahead of Blyleven.

Of course, Tommy John is more famous because of his surgery than he would be in the Hall of Fame without any surgery named for his, so there is some consolation.

He's in the Dr. James Andrews Wing of the Hall.

CoopaLoop
06-05-2014, 04:57 PM
He's in the Dr. James Andrews Wing of the Hall.

Dr James Andrews should actually get in at some point.

Mohoney
06-05-2014, 05:03 PM
Dr James Andrews should actually get in at some point.

Someday, there will probably be patients of his on the Veterans' Committee, so it is possible.

Mohoney
06-05-2014, 05:06 PM
Why is it unbelievable when Buehrle took significantly less money to play for the Sox in his last two contracts?

He did give a hometown discount, but he was also smart enough to protect himself by throwing a trade escalator in his contract, which would have erased the hometown discount if the White Sox traded him. His 4 year, $56 million deal would have went to 5 years, $75 million. I'm also wondering if Buehrle might have settled on $56 million out of superstition.

gobears1987
06-05-2014, 05:18 PM
He did give a hometown discount, but he was also smart enough to protect himself by throwing a trade escalator in his contract, which would have erased the hometown discount if the White Sox traded him. His 4 year, $56 million deal would have went to 5 years, $75 million. I'm also wondering if Buehrle might have settled on $56 million out of superstition.Buehrle never struck me as superstitious. He freaking talked about his no-hitter and perfect game while in progress.

chicagowhitesox1
06-05-2014, 06:39 PM
I've often wondered why Tommy John isn't in the Hall of Fame. I've concluded it's because he wasn't a very good for so long and that late Tommy John is what people remember. Still, I would have voted for him ahead of Blyleven.

Of course, Tommy John is more famous because of his surgery than he would be in the Hall of Fame without any surgery named for his, so there is some consolation.

I'm surprised you think Tommy John is more of a Hall of Famer than Blyleven. I'll admit, I never thought of Blyleven as a Hall of Famer until after he was elected but when I look at his stats, I have him as a top 20 pitcher of all time. I think he had 60 shutouts and I know he had tons of 1-0, 2-1 type losses in his career.

The fact that Blyleven got in is very telling of how voters have already started to look at advanced stats as a measure for pitchers. This will only help Buehrle in later years too.

Chez
06-06-2014, 07:59 AM
Dr James Andrews should actually get in at some point.


In the interest of giving credit where credit is due, it was Dr. Frank Jobe who did the surgery on Tommy John and pioneered the procedure now known as "Tommy John Surgery." That's not meant to diminish Dr. Andrews' contributions.

SI1020
06-06-2014, 10:10 AM
I'm surprised you think Tommy John is more of a Hall of Famer than Blyleven. I'll admit, I never thought of Blyleven as a Hall of Famer until after he was elected but when I look at his stats, I have him as a top 20 pitcher of all time. I think he had 60 shutouts and I know he had tons of 1-0, 2-1 type losses in his career.

The fact that Blyleven got in is very telling of how voters have already started to look at advanced stats as a measure for pitchers. This will only help Buehrle in later years too. I agree with you that Blyleven is more hall worthy than Tommy John. In fact, it isn't even close. I tried to make the argument that advanced stats idolatry will change HOF voting habits in the future and it didn't go well. Speaking of those so called "advanced stats" I was just going over Whitey Ford's "advanced stats" and it seems to me he got a royal screwing. You look at his black ink, gray ink, HOF monitor and HOF standards numbers on baseball-reference and they are in contrast with his WAR and JAWS. The more I look into it the less impressed I get with the whole saber thing. I know that is sacrilege.

kittle42
06-06-2014, 10:17 AM
I'm surprised you think Tommy John is more of a Hall of Famer than Blyleven.

Circle whichever one you think is the better HOFer.

sunofgold
06-06-2014, 04:06 PM
300 wins and Mark Buehrle is guaranteed HOF. Agreed?

He is now averaging 14-15 wins a season. He would have to pitch at age 42 in 2021 which is very possible. Could go down 41 if he continues to pitch for awhile at his 2014 pace.

Or he could retire early. Lol. Up to MB.

doublem23
06-06-2014, 04:50 PM
300 wins and Mark Buehrle is guaranteed HOF. Agreed?

Yes there is just no way he is going to get there

kittle42
06-06-2014, 06:25 PM
300 wins and Mark Buehrle is guaranteed HOF. Agreed?

He is now averaging 14-15 wins a season. He would have to pitch at age 42 in 2021 which is very possible. Could go down 41 if he continues to pitch for awhile at his 2014 pace.

Or he could retire early. Lol. Up to MB.

Maybe he'll pitch til 55.

Give it up.

chicagowhitesox1
06-06-2014, 06:31 PM
Circle whichever one you think is the better HOFer.

I don't want to turn this into a Blyleven vs Tommy John thread, but if there is a argument on why Tommy John is better, I would like to hear it....I really hope it's not because of Tommy John having 288 career wins to Blylevens 287 career wins.

voodoochile
06-06-2014, 07:37 PM
Maybe he'll pitch til 55.

Give it up.

I don't think there's any reason to think Buehrle can't pitch to 40+. He's got such an easy consistent motion and he doesn't rely on anything that will tax his arm to a significant degree. He is one of those guys who could pitch much longer than average players do. In fact though I doubt he pitches that long Jaime Moyer is a great comparison because he was a soft tossing lefty with an easy motion who relied on speed change and sink to get people out. 42 is not out of the question for MB, but 40 should be fairly easy for him to get to if he wants.

sox1970
06-06-2014, 08:22 PM
Buehrle vs the Cardinals tomorrow at noon on MLB Network.

chicagowhitesox1
06-06-2014, 09:02 PM
I'd be shocked if he pitched well vs the Cardinals tomorrow. Allen Craig and Matt Holliday are starting to heat up.

chicagowhitesox1
06-07-2014, 02:33 PM
7 innings 1 earned run but 5 walks. Not a bad day though

soxfanreggie
06-07-2014, 02:44 PM
7 innings 1 earned run but 5 walks. Not a bad day though

He'll take the loss because of the solo shot, but he'll lower his ERA.

#1swisher
06-28-2014, 10:37 AM
Buehrle signed with the Marlins as a free agent before the 2012 season for four years, $58 million, an offer the Sox had a chance to match. Buehrle said he had felt like Chicago was home. "They just kind of (said), 'See you later, take off,'" Buehrle said.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-mark-buehrle-bits-white-sox-blue-jays-spt-0628-20140628,0,1592404.story

DumpJerry
06-28-2014, 04:37 PM
:burly
I'll see everyone tomorrow! I hope Coop does not remember my weaknesses......

chicagowhitesox1
09-18-2014, 03:51 AM
Assuming Mark Buehrle reaches 200 innings this year, he will be in some pretty good company. Longest 200 innings streaks alltime.

1. Cy Young 19, HOF
2. Warren Spahn 17, HOF
3. Don Sutton 15, HOF
4. Gaylord Perry 15, HOF
5. Greg Maddux 14...he came 2 outs away from doing it 19 straight. HOF this year
6. Phil Niekro 14....1981 strike probably cost him 20 straight years. HOF
7. Christy Mathewson 14, HOF
8. Steve Carlton 13, HOF
9. Pud Galvin 13, HOF
10. Bobo Newsome 13, 51.7 war in 20 seasons. Buehrle is already at 54.9 in 14 seasons.
11. Kid Nichols 13, HOF
12. Eddie Plank 13, HOF
13. Jack Powell 13....a pitcher from the early 20th century. He gets mentioned for the hall of fame from some. 56.0 career war.
14. Red Ruffing 13, HOF
15. Tom Seaver 13, HOF
16. Vic Willis 13, HOF
17. Mark Buehrle 13 ???

The only other pitcher with a streak over 10 years, whose career ended after 1980 is Frank Viola with 10. If Buehrle reaches 15 straight seasons then it will be very hard to ignore him for the Hall of Fame.

He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.

amsteel
09-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Impressive counting stats, pretty good, but not elite rate stats. Plus by the time they get around to voting on him I have a feeling people will be viewing HOF candidates more analytically, which won't do MB any favors.

kittle42
09-18-2014, 09:56 AM
Talk of this sure died down.

cards press box
09-18-2014, 12:03 PM
Mark Buehrle is not going into the Hall of Fame.

He isn't getting in the HOF. Please stop.

The only chance Buehrle has to get into the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket.

To say the only reason Early Wynn got into the HOF because he won 300 games is like saying the only reason Neil Armstrong was an astronaut is because he walked on the moon.

Agreed.

I think Mark should absolutely be a part of the White Sox Hall of Fame (if such a thing exists).

Anyone who thinks he's got a shot at the MLB HOF is smoking something.

OK, I'll play contrarian here. For several reasons, Buehrle should be elected to the Hall Fame.

1. He is quite comparable to Whitey Ford and no one questions that Ford is an all-time great who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

For his 16 year career, Ford went 236-106 with a 2.75 ERA. Ford averaged 3.1 walks per 9 innings and 5.6 K's per 9 innings. During his career, Ford had Casey Stengel's Yankees behind him -- one of the best offensive and defensive teams that the game has ever seen. Ford also had the benefit of being a lefty pitching in cavernous old Yankee Stadium with an extraordinarily deep center field and left center field. Finally, Ford pitched the second half of his career in the 60's, a noted pitchers era.

For his ongoing 15 year career, Buehrle is 198-151 with a 3.82 ERA. Buehrle has averaged 2.0 walks per nine innings and 5.2 K's per nine innings. Buehrle didn't have the Yankees playing behind him, pitched in a hitter's paradise and pitched in and era with steroids and the DH. The biggest difference between Ford and Buehrle is the ERA and that difference is attributable to external factors.

2. Buehrle is an extraordinary fielder and will have a string of gold gloves when he retires.

3. Buehrle was a key pitcher on a world champion, the 2005 White Sox.

4. Buehrle is a five time all-star, most recently in 2014.

5. Buehrle has thrown a no-hitter and a perfect game. Know how many pitchers have done that? Six: Cy Young, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Sandy Koufax, Randy Johnson and Mark Buehrle. Four are in the Hall of Fame (Young, Joss, Bunning and Koufax). One certainly will be (Johnson). That leaves Buerhle. He should join them in the Hall.


I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

Could not agree more. Pitchers, like Buehrle, who have excelled in a hitters' era with steroids, small ballparks, juiced balls, etc. shouldn't be punished because their statistics look different than those of pitchers from other eras.

Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.

amsteel
09-18-2014, 12:22 PM
Compare Buehrle to his contemporaries. He is a Hall of Famer.

OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.

kittle42
09-18-2014, 01:40 PM
OK, out of BB/9, K/9, ERA, and FIP he's only in the top 25% of pitchers since 2000 in BB/9. All of the guys above him and wins and WAR did so in fewer games.

The average WAR/Start for that period is 0.22, MB's is 0.11.

His counting stats are great, but that just means he belongs in Conditioning and Fitness HOF.

Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.

Golden Sox
09-18-2014, 02:28 PM
Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.

SBSoxFan
09-18-2014, 05:04 PM
Everything I have read and heard is that Toronto wants to move MB in the offseason. His $19 million dollar contract is too much. I don't think anybody wants him with that contract. But if the Blue Jays pick up some/most of the contract, I think he will be moved this off season. Wouldn't it be something if he wound up back with the White Sox? We need at least 2 more starting pitchers and I would like to see him back here.

Except the Sox aren't going to want to add another lefty to their current rotation. Would you do an even swap Danks for Buehrle? Sure. I don't imagine Toronto would, however.

cards press box
09-22-2014, 11:46 AM
Amen. Put another cap on him for most of his career, and no one here is advocating seriously for HOF inclusion.

I disagree. To me, Buehrle is the modern day Whitey Ford. Adjust the ERA to reflect the different eras in which they pitched and Buehrle compares very favorably to Ford. When discussing whether Buehrle should be a Hall of Famer, Harold Reynolds of the MLB Network was quite impressed with the similarity between Buehrle and Ford and stated that it made him re-evaluate whether Buehrle should be in the Hall.

Buehrle's stats are also comparable to Jim Hunter, another Hall of Famer.

And the Ford and Hunter comparisons don't even take into account the fact that Buehrle threw a no-hitter and a perfect game. A player can catch lightening in a bottle once. But twice?

I'd be advocating Buehrle for the Hall of Fame regardless of what uniform he wore or will wear.

cards press box
09-22-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm a big Mark Buehrle fan, but my HoF criteria for a pitcher is pretty simple. If you had a must-win game and could pick from any pitcher in baseball, would he be in your Top 5?

Well, in 2005, he pitched brilliantly and won the one must win game that the Sox had in the post-season -- Game 2 of the ALCS against the L.A. Angels.

SBSoxFan
09-22-2014, 12:21 PM
He has a great shot of making it 14 straight 200 inning seasons.

Buehrle is at 194 IP with one more start in 2014. Gibbons has already stated that he would, within reason, let Buehrle pitch in relief in the final game of the season if necessary to reach 200 IP. Buehrle hasn't pitched in relief in the regular season since 2000.

I'm sure you could go back and find six additional innings he could have thrown in his previous 31 starts this year. It seems like Gibbons had some pretty quick hooks this season.

Anyway, here's hoping Buehrle gets to 200 IP "naturally" against Seattle on Wednesday. :gulp: