PDA

View Full Version : 1990s pitching


kenfinan
08-09-2013, 01:19 AM
So I am 31 years old. I used to often wonder(and my dad as well) why as a kid I never liked pitching. The other day I was skimming over the pitchers of the White Sox during the 90s, and I honestly couldn't remember most of them at all.

The first Sox pitcher I really liked was Mark Buehrle, in 2000! It took until I was 18 before I really liked a pitcher. Maybe I was just a kid with his head up his rear, but maybe you guys could provide me some anecdotes of great Sox pitching during that era? To date I think this year has had some of the best staring pitchers I've personally ever seen on the Sox.

My shameful lack of 2005 Sox knowledge can only be relegated to box scores at this point, but that is an entirely different story.

shes
08-09-2013, 01:57 AM
Wilson threw his no-no in 1990, I believe.

Black Jack anchored our rotation in the early 90s. Lots of great moments. He won 59 games from 91-93 and pitched over 750 innings over that time. Wow!

Jason Bere won 24 of his first 31 decisions and looked like he was going to be a mainstay for a decade to come. Shame he got hurt.

Might as well mention Alex Fernandez as well. These four guys made up a hell of a foursome for those back to back division title-winning teams. Still bummed to this day that we were robbed of a White Sox postseason in 1994. Sox-Expos would have been a hell of a WS.

I'll refrain from mentioning those late nineties teams because, well, if you were around during the John Snyder/Jaime Navarro days you know that that wound needs to remain covered for perpetuity.

Daver
08-09-2013, 02:08 AM
Wilson threw his no-no in 1990, I believe.


August 1991 against the Rangers, in his second MLB game.

kenfinan
08-09-2013, 02:10 AM
Early 90s for me.. lots of moving, broken home, little to no baseball. Seems I missed out on some great talent :( Now that I'm older I won't ever let that happen again.

Frater Perdurabo
08-09-2013, 05:57 AM
August 1991 against the Rangers, in his second MLB game.

I believe Alvarez was acquired from the Rangers, but his no-hitter was thrown against the Orioles.

cards press box
08-09-2013, 06:22 AM
I believe Alvarez was acquired from the Rangers, but his no-hitter was thrown against the Orioles.

Correct. And, if I remember correctly, it was the last no-hitter at old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore.

mrwag
08-09-2013, 09:28 AM
Speed, pitching and defense was Torborg's mantra. It's still a winning formula today.

doublem23
08-09-2013, 09:36 AM
As was mentioned, the early '90s pitching was great; Black Jack, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Jason Bere... ****, how depressing those guys only won one lousy division title. :(:

Late '90s was pretty brutal, though my favorite for no particular reason was Mike Sirotka. I still have a jersey of his. The 2000 Sox had a great ride thanks to some career years from Sirotka, James Baldwin, Jim Parque, and most surprisingly, Cal Eldred. I still have no idea how those guys won 90+ games.

Don Cooper has been in the White Sox organization since 1998 and became the MLB Pitching Coach in 2002 and since then, I think the Sox have had some tremendous talent. The '05 team was spectacular, the only had 6 guys make a start all season long. That is insane. But even then it seems like they've turned a real corner at developing arms. Guys like Quintana and Santiago are real keepers. A decade ago, the Sox were promoting guys like Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, David Sanders, Mike Porzio, and Jon Adkins out of their minor league system. So in that regard, things are better.

soltrain21
08-09-2013, 10:18 AM
I was big on Roberto Hernandez.

jdm2662
08-09-2013, 10:23 AM
As was mentioned, the early '90s pitching was great; Black Jack, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Jason Bere... ****, how depressing those guys only won one lousy division title. :(:

Late '90s was pretty brutal, though my favorite for no particular reason was Mike Sirotka. I still have a jersey of his. The 2000 Sox had a great ride thanks to some career years from Sirotka, James Baldwin, Jim Parque, and most surprisingly, Cal Eldred. I still have no idea how those guys won 90+ games.

Don Cooper has been in the White Sox organization since 1998 and became the MLB Pitching Coach in 2002 and since then, I think the Sox have had some tremendous talent. The '05 team was spectacular, the only had 6 guys make a start all season long. That is insane. But even then it seems like they've turned a real corner at developing arms. Guys like Quintana and Santiago are real keepers. A decade ago, the Sox were promoting guys like Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, David Sanders, Mike Porzio, and Jon Adkins out of their minor league system. So in that regard, things are better.

Pretty much. The Sox have done a pretty good job developing pitchers.

Now, position players...

TheVulture
08-09-2013, 01:31 PM
August 1991 against the Rangers, in his second MLB game.

It was against the Orioles in Baltimore. I would know because I was there, the only time I've been to a game in Baltimore. Being a huge Baines fan as a kid, I was crushed when they traded him. Never felt better about it until that day. It was his Sox debut, I believe his first ML start came more than a year before.

thomas35forever
08-09-2013, 02:00 PM
I was big on Roberto Hernandez.
Even though I had only been a Sox fan for about a year, I was still bummed about him and Alvarez being traded, even if I didn't watch a lot of games. I knew they were valuable, so that White Flag Trade was a tough pill to swallow even at 8.

WhiteSox5187
08-09-2013, 02:50 PM
August 1991 against the Rangers, in his second MLB game.

I think it was against Baltimore.

lpneck
08-09-2013, 04:24 PM
Alvarez's no-hitter was August 11, 1991 against the Orioles. It was the 7th win in a row for the Sox and they had won 15 out of 17. They were a game behind the Twins and closing.

I was 16 years old and convinced after the game the Sox were a team of destiny. A new park they were filling... Thomas having an MVP caliber season... Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam against the Rangers a week earlier and I had been at the game (best sporting event I have ever attended, including the black out game)... now you bring up a rookie who goes out and throws a no-hitter? No way this team doesn't win it all- it's a magical story.

Then they lost 15 of the next 17 and were 9 games out by the end of August.

kenfinan
08-10-2013, 04:39 AM
Alvarez's no-hitter was August 11, 1991 against the Orioles. It was the 7th win in a row for the Sox and they had won 15 out of 17. They were a game behind the Twins and closing.

I was 16 years old and convinced after the game the Sox were a team of destiny. A new park they were filling... Thomas having an MVP caliber season... Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam against the Rangers a week earlier and I had been at the game (best sporting event I have ever attended, including the black out game)... now you bring up a rookie who goes out and throws a no-hitter? No way this team doesn't win it all- it's a magical story.

Then they lost 15 of the next 17 and were 9 games out by the end of August.

The video of that Grand Slam by Ventura, I won't ever tire of it.

Walker29
08-12-2013, 01:21 PM
I watched the Alvarez no-hitter from ICU at Childrens Memorial a couple weeks before I turned 13. Good Times

bestkosher
08-12-2013, 01:29 PM
I still have my Jason Bere rookie card.

I was fascinated by his wicked curve.

Over By There
08-12-2013, 01:42 PM
I have fond memories of Black Jack, Bere, Alvarez and Fernandez (although Fernandez always seemed like a guy that never lived up to his potential). Those were the early years of my Sox fandom. I can still remember watching the Alvarez no-no. That game and Bo Jackson's return to the field are two of my most vivid Sox memories from the early 90s.

VeeckAsInWreck
08-12-2013, 01:50 PM
Then they lost 15 of the next 17 and were 9 games out by the end of August.


They were no-hit by Bret Saberhagen in KC on August 26th of that year. 1991 was a fun year to watch the Sox.

The '92 White Sox were a disappointment. They had added Steve Sax and George Bell that year and on paper looked better. In 1993 they put it together but got beat by the All-Star team Toronto had. '94 was the ultimate kick in the pants for us.

Bobby Thigpen
08-12-2013, 02:12 PM
I don't know why, but I loved me some James Baldwin.

Bobby Thigpen
08-12-2013, 02:13 PM
They were no-hit by Bret Saberhagen in KC on August 26th of that year. 1991 was a fun year to watch the Sox.

The '92 White Sox were a disappointment. They had added Steve Sax and George Bell that year and on paper looked better. In 1993 they put it together but got beat by the All-Star team Toronto had. '94 was the ultimate kick in the pants for us.
People dislike Dunn, but for my money Steve Sax was one of the worst acquisitions ever. Right up there with David Wells.

SCCWS
08-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Speed, pitching and defense was Torborg's mantra. It's still a winning formula today.

Lets not forget that Torborg had 2 winning seasons in Chicago. His other 9 years managing he had losing seasons and he finished his career with a .469 %. He was a losing manger except for us those 2 years. Not a inning formula for Torborg.

VeeckAsInWreck
08-12-2013, 04:28 PM
People dislike Dunn, but for my money Steve Sax was one of the worst acquisitions ever. Right up there with David Wells.


All I gotta say is Jaime Navarro. Ron Schueler passed up Roger Clemens to get this guy.

Chez
08-12-2013, 04:45 PM
Jack McDowell was one of my favorite Sox players ever. Jason Bere's stuff was electric before he got hurt. Roberto Hernandez and Scott Radinsky were a great bullpen combo. Although Cleveland was breathing down their necks at the time, I've always believed the Sox could have won the WS in 1994 if not for the strike.

By 1995, Cleveland was just too damn good!

Bobby Thigpen
08-12-2013, 06:47 PM
All I gotta say is Jaime Navarro. Ron Schueler passed up Roger Clemens to get this guy.
Navarro was horrible, but I still think Wells was the worst acquisition ever. Guy was terrible and didn't care. Navarro at least seemed to care. And at the time I would've passed on Clemens too. He was done. You had no idea he was going to go on to his freakish roid years.

Railsplitter
08-12-2013, 10:52 PM
I was 16 years old and convinced after the game the Sox were a team of destiny. A new park they were filling... Thomas having an MVP caliber season... Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam against the Rangers a week earlier and I had been at the game (best sporting event I have ever attended, including the black out game)... now you bring up a rookie who goes out and throws a no-hitter? No way this team doesn't win it all- it's a magical story.

Then they lost 15 of the next 17 and were 9 games out by the end of August.

I was at that game with the Ventura slam. From the upper deck on the 3rd base side. it looked ike a gapper for sure, but didn't drop

mrwag
08-13-2013, 10:00 AM
I was at that game with the Ventura slam. From the upper deck on the 3rd base side. it looked ike a gapper for sure, but didn't drop

Frank's hoisting of Robin is a classic!

white sox bill
08-13-2013, 12:20 PM
They were no-hit by Bret Saberhagen in KC on August 26th of that year. 1991 was a fun year to watch the Sox.

The '92 White Sox were a disappointment. They had added Steve Sax and George Bell that year and on paper looked better. In 1993 they put it together but got beat by the All-Star team Toronto had. '94 was the ultimate kick in the pants for us.
Was that the game they actually won 2-0?

lpneck
08-13-2013, 04:50 PM
Was that the game they actually won 2-0?

No- I think you are thinking of the Andy Hawkins no-hitter* for the Yankees against the Sox in 1990.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA199007010.shtml

It was 0-0 in the bottom of the 8th, Sox had bases loaded with 2 outs after 2 walks and an error. Ventura hit a flyball to left field that got caught up in the wind a bit, and Jim Leyritz let it hit off his glove for a 3-base error that cleared the bases. Calderon was up next and the Yankees misplayed another fly ball, and the Sox won the game 4-0 without a hit. Probably the craziest game I have ever seen.

Also, Barry Jones was the winning pitcher for the Sox and was 10-1 out of the bullpen on July 1!

*Asterisk in that MLB changed the official definition of a no-hitter later so that a pitcher has to pitch a minimum of 9 IP in order to get credit. Hawkins only had 8 IP because the Sox were the home team. That rule also cost Melido Perez a 6 inning rain shortened no-hitter that the Sox won AGAINST Hawkins and the Yankees 2 weeks later in New York.

I still don't understand that rule... seems to me that the definition of a NO-HITTER should be that you have played an official game, and at the end of it the other team has NO HITS.

Foulke You
08-13-2013, 06:55 PM
Navarro was horrible, but I still think Wells was the worst acquisition ever. Guy was terrible and didn't care. Navarro at least seemed to care.
I completely disagree with you here. David Wells was coming off a 20 win season when he was acquired and it was a decent gamble by KW coming off the 95 win 2000 season which had no ace to anchor the rotation in the playoffs the previous year. Also, there was no long term commitment to Wells. He was a rent a player gamble for one year that didn't pay off because Wells showed up to camp out of shape and was plagued by injuries most of 2001. It was a one and done thing. No harm done to the organization because we gave up Sirotka in the deal who ended up never pitching again. Wells may have been hurt and ineffective but he had a positive influence on Mark Buehrle who has talked about Wells showing him the ropes when he was a young starting pitcher in 2001.

David Wells Stats:

2001- 5W-7L 4.47 E.R.A.

Jaime Navarro on the other hand was given a long term deal by Ron Schueler (4 years, $20 million if I remember right) which was a ton of money for the time period. Navarro put together three of the worst seasons I've ever seen a White Sox pitcher have and the team just kept stubbornly trotting him out there to get shelled. It really set the organization back and his contract was an albatross of the highest order. I do credit Schu for finally unloading Navarro on the Brewers and getting Valentin and Eldred in return. Also, Navarro had a bad attitude when he was here to boot. When you are talking about worst acquisitions in White Sox history, Jaime Navarro is always going to be at the top of my list:

Jaime Navarro Stats:

1996 - 9W-14L 5.79 E.R.A.
1997- 8W-16L 6.36 E.R.A.
1998- 8W-13L 6.09 E.R.A.

Railsplitter
08-13-2013, 10:12 PM
All I gotta say is Jaime Navarro. Ron Schueler passed up Roger Clemens to get this guy.

Navarro is the only pitcher to have three homers hit off him that landed on the roof of Tiger Stadium-- and he never played for the Tigers.

SOXBOY
08-14-2013, 01:06 AM
Back in the 90's Bere was my favorite Sox pitcher. Too bad injuries hurt his career. I also loved Tapani too bad he left the Sox for the cubs.