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#1swisher
08-08-2013, 02:09 PM
UPDATE:
The White Sox and Rangers are now in a 72-hour window to negotiate a potential trade for Alex Rios.
http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/update-rangers-place-claim-rios


670 The Score ‏@670TheScore (https://twitter.com/670TheScore) 3m (https://twitter.com/670TheScore/status/365534216496230400) Report: Alex Rios claimed off waivers http://cbsloc.al/1cxTOab (http://t.co/D7OPxTDP5r) #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash)


EDIT:
Claiming team unknown.

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) 56s (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/365535552910524417) #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash)
logical guess as claiming team for #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash)’s Rios. Had interest in him in July. Cruz now suspended. Cruz, Murphy FAs end of year.

#WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash)’s Rios owed $15M after this season. Salary jumps from $12.5M to $13M if traded, buyout on option increases from $1M to $2M.

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm) 1m (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/365537696497676288)

Teams most likely to put a claim in onAlex Rios? My guess would be 1. Texas 2. Pittsburgh 3. Seattle 4. San Fran. TX has biggest need

chisox77
08-08-2013, 02:15 PM
Rios is a fine player, but making room for Garcia is taking a healthy step forward.

getonbckthr
08-08-2013, 02:15 PM
There's no way he's still here Sunday is there?

DumpJerry
08-08-2013, 02:19 PM
There's no way he's still here Sunday is there?
Yes, he could be with the Sox until the end of the season. Players get claimed off waivers all the time, most of the time deals are not made.

Sometimes a team will put in a claim to block another team from getting the player (this is how we think Rios ended up with us. The theory was that Kenny wanted to block the Tigers from getting him). If a deal is not worked out in 48 hours, the player stays. The Sox can pull him back even before the 48 hours expire.

soxfan43
08-08-2013, 02:23 PM
How does Rios' no trade clause work here? I know he has a few teams on it. I assume it would apply in any trade the Sox worked out with the claiming team, but would it apply if the Sox just straight dumped in a waiver claim?

Boondock Saint
08-08-2013, 02:24 PM
Yes, he could be with the Sox until the end of the season. Players get claimed off waivers all the time, most of the time deals are not made.

Sometimes a team will put in a claim to block another team from getting the player (this is how we think Rios ended up with us. The theory was that Kenny wanted to block the Tigers from getting him). If a deal is not worked out in 48 hours, the player stays. The Sox can pull him back even before the 48 hours expire.

I think what he was wondering is if there was any likely scenario that involves the Sox pulling Rios off of waivers instead of just giving him away or working a trade.

LITTLE NELL
08-08-2013, 02:25 PM
Fingers still crossed.

XplodingScorbord
08-08-2013, 02:25 PM
The Sox would be idiots to just give him away. He's a decent hitter, base stealer, and is fine in the field. This is not a guy you just give away, regardless of his contract. Get something for him if someone wants him.

getonbckthr
08-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Yes, he could be with the Sox until the end of the season. Players get claimed off waivers all the time, most of the time deals are not made.

Sometimes a team will put in a claim to block another team from getting the player (this is how we think Rios ended up with us. The theory was that Kenny wanted to block the Tigers from getting him). If a deal is not worked out in 48 hours, the player stays. The Sox can pull him back even before the 48 hours expire.
I know the rules, Boondock got it.
I think what he was wondering is if there was any likely scenario that involves the Sox pulling Rios off of waivers instead of just giving him away or working a trade.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Now we will see if the Sox are going to salary dump.

getonbckthr
08-08-2013, 02:27 PM
The Sox would be idiots to just give him away. He's a decent hitter, base stealer, and is fine in the field. This is not a guy you just give away, regardless of his contract. Get something for him if someone wants him.
And if they don't want to give us something screw em stick em with that contract and a guy who lacks passion and hustle.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 02:28 PM
Let the team just have him, if we can't work out a deal..

EMel9281
08-08-2013, 02:30 PM
let the team just have him, if we can't work out a deal..

+1

russ99
08-08-2013, 02:32 PM
Gotta look big picture here.

Either we deal him now or November, he's not going to be here next spring.

We have to get something for him, how does a dump with nothing in return help the rebuild?

Plus it would make Hahn look foolish. Taking offers before the deadline, saying they're not good enough, and he won't give a player away, then dump him for nothing? No way.

DeadMoney
08-08-2013, 02:33 PM
Let him go.

Jacoby Ellsbury.

XplodingScorbord
08-08-2013, 02:35 PM
This board has lost its collective mind. I get it, Rios came here and sucked for a couple of years. But he's figured out how to hit again, will steal 30+ bases this year, and can still cover ground in the outfield. Is his attitude the best? No. But the guy is going into a contract year and has played well (save some occasional lack of hustle) this year. Next year he's gonna want to get paid, so he'll give it his all. Is he going to be an all star? Probably not. But is he a valuable commodity that you don't just dump for salary savings? Absolutely.

kittle42
08-08-2013, 02:43 PM
This board has lost its collective mind. I get it, Rios came here and sucked for a couple of years. But he's figured out how to hit again, will steal 30+ bases this year, and can still cover ground in the outfield. Is his attitude the best? No. But the guy is going into a contract year and has played well (save some occasional lack of hustle) this year. Next year he's gonna want to get paid, so he'll give it his all. Is he going to be an all star? Probably not. But is he a valuable commodity that you don't just dump for salary savings? Absolutely.

Agreed. The problem isn't Rios, it's that we have a lineup where he has to hit third.

But I guess he's not Chicago Tough for enough people. Where's the fire!?

LoveYourSuit
08-08-2013, 03:07 PM
This board has lost its collective mind. I get it, Rios came here and sucked for a couple of years. But he's figured out how to hit again, will steal 30+ bases this year, and can still cover ground in the outfield. Is his attitude the best? No. But the guy is going into a contract year and has played well (save some occasional lack of hustle) this year. Next year he's gonna want to get paid, so he'll give it his all. Is he going to be an all star? Probably not. But is he a valuable commodity that you don't just dump for salary savings? Absolutely.

Finally some common sense.

Rios is still a solid player and decent value for his contract. You just don't give up a guy like this for nothing. The Blue Jays gave him up for nothing but that's when 5 years were left on his deal and that team was bleeding poor with other bad contracts.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 03:13 PM
Finally some common sense.

Rios is still a solid player and decent value for his contract. You just don't give up a guy like this for nothing. The Blue Jays gave him up for nothing but that's when 5 years were left on his deal and that team was bleeding poor with other bad contracts.

I'd rather spend his 14M for next season elsewhere.

I hope we can trade Dunn, Konerko, DeAza, Alexei, and Danks as well

SOXBOY
08-08-2013, 03:16 PM
The Sox would be ahead either way work a trade or let him go. Saving 14 million and using some of that towards next year would be just as good. Rios to me is a cancer to the team. The Sox will be better off without him.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 03:21 PM
People want us to give up Rios for nothing? That's actually being suggested?

Pfft....

Expensive, but not unreasonable contract. Decent stats. Plenty of interested teams around in the offseason. We don't need to dump salary that badly, and Hahn has already said he's under no mandate from ownership to shed salary.

Domeshot17
08-08-2013, 03:25 PM
Would be Ironic... We got Rios for nothing... and would give him up for nothing in the same process!

balke
08-08-2013, 03:27 PM
Yes, this is a good start. No, don't trade him straight for cash. Yes, trade him for prospects.

Sox need to keep in mind Rios is one of the best available free agent OFers in the next couple of years. When you look at what he's making compared what you'd have to pay the top guys, he's quite valuable.

DeadMoney
08-08-2013, 03:42 PM
Yes, this is a good start. No, don't trade him straight for cash. Yes, trade him for prospects.

Sox need to keep in mind Rios is one of the best available free agent OFers in the next couple of years. When you look at what he's making compared what you'd have to pay the top guys, he's quite valuable.

I think this year's OF FA market has some decent options, so there may not be a great market for Rios come November.

Guys like Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart (off an injury) will be out there, as well as shorter-term options like Beltran, and Ibanez.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 03:44 PM
Rangers need Rios bat pretty bad. Hopefully we can get a few prospects from them.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 03:45 PM
Evan Grant ‏@Evan_P_Grant 1m (https://twitter.com/Evan_P_Grant/status/365558909831876611)
MLB Sources: Rangers did claim Alex Rios. But claiming him and acquiring him 2 very different things.

Moses_Scurry
08-08-2013, 03:49 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep if they gave him up for nothing. Offer a few million in salary relief for a decent prospect. If they don't bite, let them take on the contract. 15 million is a lot to pay for a guy who has equal hitting numbers as De Aza.

RCWHITESOX
08-08-2013, 03:49 PM
The Sox would be idiots to just give him away. He's a decent hitter, base stealer, and is fine in the field. This is not a guy you just give away, regardless of his contract. Get something for him if someone wants him.

Amen!!!

Mr. Jinx
08-08-2013, 03:52 PM
The Sox would be idiots to just give him away. He's a decent hitter, base stealer, and is fine in the field. This is not a guy you just give away, regardless of his contract. Get something for him if someone wants him.

I guess just like Toronto then too?

balke
08-08-2013, 03:55 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep if they gave him up for nothing. Offer a few million in salary relief for a decent prospect. If they don't bite, let them take on the contract. 15 million is a lot to pay for a guy who has equal hitting numbers as De Aza.


Sox aren't hurting for cash, they can likely make a cash deal at any point next season if they want. Gotta get a player out of this. Too much leverage with Cruz out.

Huisj
08-08-2013, 03:55 PM
Let him go.

Jacoby Ellsbury.

Knowing the Sox, they'll trade him for Jacsbury Obyell by accident.

Cue the picture of KW saying "Berry? Barry?"

GABP
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
He has a .749 OPS this year, the very definition of average. Like someone else said, his $14 million will be better spent elsewhere

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
I'd love to get Odor & Nick Williams for Rios.

LoveYourSuit
08-08-2013, 03:56 PM
I guess just like Toronto then too?

2 total different situations.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 03:57 PM
Gotta look big picture here.

Either we deal him now or November, he's not going to be here next spring.

We have to get something for him, how does a dump with nothing in return help the rebuild?

Plus it would make Hahn look foolish. Taking offers before the deadline, saying they're not good enough, and he won't give a player away, then dump him for nothing? No way.

It frees up money to be spent elsewhere.

balke
08-08-2013, 03:58 PM
It frees up money to be spent elsewhere.


There's around 60 mil on the books for next year, less than 40 for 2015. Money isn't an issue.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 03:58 PM
I'd love to get Odor & Nick Williams for Rios.

Keep dreaming.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 04:00 PM
Gotta look big picture here.

Either we deal him now or November, he's not going to be here next spring.

We have to get something for him, how does a dump with nothing in return help the rebuild?

Plus it would make Hahn look foolish. Taking offers before the deadline, saying they're not good enough, and he won't give a player away, then dump him for nothing? No way.

That is looking at it in a vacuum. How much did other teams want the Sox to eat salary wise? They could have been offering "something," sure. But they could have wanted the Sox to eat almost all of the salary.

LoveYourSuit
08-08-2013, 04:00 PM
He has a .749 OPS this year, the very definition of average. Like someone else said, his $14 million will be better spent elsewhere

Right, because he does nothing else well other than hit.

Come on people, the guy is close to a 5 tool player.

russ99
08-08-2013, 04:01 PM
Rangers need Rios bat pretty bad. Hopefully we can get a few prospects from them.

Yup, they need him badly, we badly need to get something in return while dumping his salary.

There should be some room here for a deal.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 04:01 PM
There's around 60 mil on the books for next year, less than 40 for 2014. Money isn't an issue.

Still, its close to $20 million that could be reallocated. Its not like what would come back for him is going to be a really great prospect anyway.

doublem23
08-08-2013, 04:01 PM
I guess just like Toronto then too?

When I think of well run teams by intelligent people I want the Sox to emulate, the Blue Jays aren't very high on that list.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:02 PM
So how long do the Sox have to take him off waivers or let him go?

Nevermind: 48 hours apparently

LoveYourSuit
08-08-2013, 04:02 PM
Still, its close to $20 million that could be reallocated. Its not like what would come back for him is going to be a really great prospect anyway.

How do you know this?

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:05 PM
The fact the Rangers claimed him knowing the Sox could very well dump him on them means they want him. Hahn should be able to extract at least a decent C prospect or two for him I would think.

XplodingScorbord
08-08-2013, 04:05 PM
Still, its close to $20 million that could be reallocated. Its not like what would come back for him is going to be a really great prospect anyway.

Again, you do not give him up for nothing. You do not give him up for a lousy prospect. He's going into a contract year. That is a big advantage whether we keep him or we trade him.

If we keep him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year. If we trade him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year and thus should have value. Significant value.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
How do you know this?

They were trying to move him before the deadline. The reports on MLB traderumors were the Sox were offered "organizational filler" for Rios. Non prospects. Holding out for a Brandon Jacobs-like prospect and keeping this $20 million on the books when you just traded for a replacement makes zero sense.

balke
08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
Any remote chance they'll send Dunn through waivers and package them?

lpneck
08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
Finally some common sense.

Rios is still a solid player and decent value for his contract. You just don't give up a guy like this for nothing. The Blue Jays gave him up for nothing but that's when 5 years were left on his deal and that team was bleeding poor with other bad contracts.

17.5 million dollars is NOT nothing. ($4M on this year's salary, $12.5M next year, $1M buyout.)

He has an OPS of .749. He's hit 2 home runs since mid-May. He has a terrible attitude.

The money being saved that can be spent on other free agents or to extend any good young players we draft/trade for in the future has a ton of value.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 04:06 PM
Again, you do not give him up for nothing. You do not give him up for a lousy prospect. He's going into a contract year. That is a big advantage whether we keep him or we trade him.

If we keep him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year. If we trade him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year and thus should have value. Significant value.

I don't think telling another GM, "It's his contract year, so he will play harder!" would really be a good selling point.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 04:08 PM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas-rangers/headlines/20130808-source-texas-rangers-claim-alex-rios-off-waivers-but-aren-t-guaranteed-to-land-him.ece

According to a Major League source, the Rangers on Thursday were awarded the prevailing claim on Chicago White Sox outfielder Alex Rios.

The White Sox can either work a trade with the Rangers within 72 hours, allow Texas to simply take on Rios' contact via the waiver claim or pull him back from waivers.

The Rangers had shown some interest in Rios before the trade deadline but his age (32), his lack of impact power and a contract worth $13.5 million for 2014 made them leery.

More details to come.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 04:10 PM
Sox should have a little bit of leverage in this situation. Rangers are desperate for a bat and have been looking at a band aid platoon option in the OF in the wake of Cruz's suspension.

They know the Sox won't give him up for nothing and could hold onto him, so I think there's a good chance for a deal of fair value here.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Again, you do not give him up for nothing. You do not give him up for a lousy prospect. He's going into a contract year. That is a big advantage whether we keep him or we trade him.

If we keep him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year. If we trade him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year and thus should have value. Significant value.

While I think that is a consideration, Alex Rios and motivation aren't usually used in the same sentence. They have Garcia. If they let Rios go and added other players with Rios' money this offseason it would make a lot of sense. When the Sox traded CLee, they were able to add iguchi and AJ with the money saved. They should absolutely try to buy a good prospect here, but if Texas doesn't bite, unless they don't reallocate the funds, they actually will get something for him.

GABP
08-08-2013, 04:11 PM
How do you know this?

Common sense? The guy has a .9 WAR this year. Just barely above average

balke
08-08-2013, 04:13 PM
They were trying to move him before the deadline. The reports on MLB traderumors were the Sox were offered "organizational filler" for Rios. Non prospects. Holding out for a Brandon Jacobs-like prospect and keeping this $20 million on the books when you just traded for a replacement makes zero sense.


Makes tons of sense. There's no urgency. Sox aren't hurting financially. They are clearly in the driver's seat, and did not pull the trigger initially because they knew the Rangers were low-balling them.

Now that the official verdict is out, and Cruz is gone - BIG advantage to the Sox in terms of negotiation.

Rios might end this season with 20+HR 30+2B and 35+SB.
Compare that to Leonys Martin and Craig Gentry. Advantage White Sox.

JB98
08-08-2013, 04:13 PM
Sox should have a little bit of leverage in this situation. Rangers are desperate for a bat and have been looking at a band aid platoon option in the OF in the wake of Cruz's suspension.

They know the Sox won't give him up for nothing and could hold onto him, so I think there's a good chance for a deal of fair value here.

Indeed. The Sox don't have to trade him, but they should if offered fair value.

I'd like to see Rios moved to make room for Garcia, but only an idiot would give Rios away for nothing. He has value. For a player that has no value, see Wells, Casper.

Saracen
08-08-2013, 04:14 PM
Again, you do not give him up for nothing. You do not give him up for a lousy prospect. He's going into a contract year. That is a big advantage whether we keep him or we trade him.

If we keep him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year. If we trade him, he's motivated to bust his butt next year and thus should have value. Significant value.

All you're gonna get right now is lousy prospects. The Rangers depleted the farm in the Garza trade, JD is not going to give away any decent prospects, and Rios is a nice to have, not a need, for them.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:15 PM
Common sense? The guy has a .9 WAR this year. Just barely above average

The question isn't how Rios compares to average. It's how does Rios compare to whoever the Rangers will play without him...he would be a vast improvement over Gentry and Murphy, therefore his value to the Rangers would be high.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 04:18 PM
All you're gonna get right now is lousy prospects. The Rangers depleted the farm in the Garza trade, JD is not going to give away any decent prospects, and Rios is a nice to have, not a need, for them.

Well. I would say he is a need for them.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:19 PM
Rios is a nice to have, not a need, for them.

If you're trying to win a WS, you need somebody such as Rios if you are the Rangers. If you're trying to be the best team, having one decent OFer isn't going to stack up. They're middle of the pack offensively, even an average producer if you want to call Rios that will improve their offense considerably vs. sending out some who will bat .220/.290/.350 who in addition has lesser defensive and baserunning ability.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 04:21 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/white-sox-alex-rios-claimed-off-waivers-080813

Saracen
08-08-2013, 04:22 PM
If you're trying to win a WS, you need somebody such as Rios if you are the Rangers. If you're trying to be the best team, having one decent OFer isn't going to stack up. They're middle of the pack offensively, even an average producer if you want to call Rios that will improve their offense considerably vs. sending out some who will bat .220/.290/.350 who in addition has lesser defensive and baserunning ability.
They fully believe they can win this year based on strong starting pitching and an outstanding bullpen. As JD said just the other day, there are no "game changers" on the market, including Rios. He's not going to give up anything decent.

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 04:22 PM
Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 2m (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/365567935311392770)
Don't see #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) dumping Alex Rios to give away salary. No pressure to move him immediately. Who's the No. 3 hitter if they do?

kobo
08-08-2013, 04:23 PM
I'd rather spend his 14M for next season elsewhere.

I hope we can trade Dunn, Konerko, DeAza, Alexei, and Danks as well
1. Giving him up for nothing is a dumb baseball move. If Texas has claimed him and isn't willing to part with any prospects then pull him back and trade him this off-season.

2. Trading Danks would be dumb as they'd be selling low at this point. Guy is coming off major shoulder surgery and won't be back to full strength until ST next year. No point in moving him now or in the off season.

lpneck
08-08-2013, 04:23 PM
Indeed. The Sox don't have to trade him, but they should if offered fair value.

I'd like to see Rios moved to make room for Garcia, but only an idiot would give Rios away for nothing. He has value. For a player that has no value, see Wells, Casper.

He has value to the Rangers in the sense that he is marginally better than Craig Gentry. He DOES NOT have value to the White Sox that is even close to $17.5M.

The White Sox win this trade by literally giving him away for nothing and freeing themselves of his contract. If they can get rid of him, their financial obligation for next season will be under $50M, and under $30M for 2015. It will give them the opportunity to have the financial flexibility to rebuild in the next 2 years that they have sorely lacked recently because they have had so many bad contracts.

It will be the best day of the year for the Sox if this happens- regardless if they get a filler prospect from the Rangers or not.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 04:25 PM
Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 2m (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/365567935311392770)
Don't see #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) dumping Alex Rios to give away salary. No pressure to move him immediately. Who's the No. 3 hitter if they do?

I am not too concerned with who bats third this year. And he bats third next year, we are trouble anyway.

chisoxjtrain
08-08-2013, 04:26 PM
I have a question: with waiver deals, can another team claim whatever the Rangers trade to the White Sox?

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:28 PM
They fully believe they can win this year based on strong starting pitching and an outstanding bullpen. As JD said just the other day, there are no "game changers" on the market, including Rios. He's not going to give up anything decent.

If that were the case they wouldn't have claimed Rios. I don't think teams just take on 17 million for the hell of it. Look at their lineup, it really isn't that good without Cruz. It's Beltre and a massive fall off. Usually if you want to win with pitching you need the best defense and Rios will help them there as well.

I don't know, I guess it depends how you define "decent prospect". Sickels had the Rangers with 27 prospects rated C or better so I don't think they have completely shot their wad.

slavko
08-08-2013, 04:29 PM
Agreed that he's a good player even if he has lost the ability to hit for power. Is he $14M good? Hell no. Does losing him open a needed spot in the lineup? Hell yes. Can the $14M be spent better elsewhere? Hell yes.

Call it a dump, call it nickel squeezing, call it treason if it makes you happy. It. Is. Still. A. Good. Baseball. Move.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 04:30 PM
Rangers top 20 loaded with good infield prospects:

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/#list=tex

Not saying we'll get a top 20, but I can dream, right?:smile:

DeadMoney
08-08-2013, 04:30 PM
I have a question: with waiver deals, can another team claim whatever the Rangers trade to the White Sox?

Minor Leaguers do not have to go through waivers to be traded, so probably not. Of course, if the Rangers wanted to deal someone who isn't in the minors, then there are a few options for those guys...
1. The player already could have been put on waivers, and cleared them.
2. I believe the claiming team could declare a PTBNL as part of the deal and then 'award' that player the other team in the off season.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 04:30 PM
He has value to the Rangers in the sense that he is marginally better than Craig Gentry.

Marginally?!? He has considerably better value than every OFer currently on the Rangers roster. Rios is a clearly better offensive player than 5 or 6 guys minimum in the TX lineup, arguably better than all but Beltre, maaaayybe Kinsler.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 04:34 PM
Agreed that he's a good player even if he has lost the ability to hit for power. Is he $14M good? Hell no. Does losing him open a needed spot in the lineup? Hell yes. Can the $14M be spent better elsewhere? Hell yes.

Call it a dump, call it nickel squeezing, call it treason if it makes you happy. It. Is. Still. A. Good. Baseball. Move.

If I'm not mistaken, payroll drops somewhere in the 60-70 million dollar range in 2014 even WITHOUT trading Rios. So we are under no pressure to dump salary just for the sake of dumping it.

FoulTerritory
08-08-2013, 04:36 PM
Gotta look big picture here.

Either we deal him now or November, he's not going to be here next spring.

We have to get something for him, how does a dump with nothing in return help the rebuild?

Plus it would make Hahn look foolish. Taking offers before the deadline, saying they're not good enough, and he won't give a player away, then dump him for nothing? No way.

Freeing up that salary is hugely important to a rebuild. Salary flexibility helps with so many facets of building, from signing FA to signing latin american prospects, etc. If you can't trade him. Let him go and feel the sweet gains of salary dump!

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 04:42 PM
Danny KnoblerVerified account
‏@DannyKnoblerCBS
Rios went on waivers on Monday. Means White Sox have until tomorrow to trade him or pull back off waivers and keep for rest of season.



Interesting, looks like we have till tomorrow to do a deal.

Mr. Jinx
08-08-2013, 04:49 PM
2 total different situations.

You're right. One situation had a guy entering his prime power years coming off of a time when he had seasons with an OPS of .865, .852, .798, and then a clunker season at .691. In the other situation you have a 32 year old past his prime guy who has put up OPS of .791, .631, .850, and .749 in his time here.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 04:52 PM
A salary dump is crazy. This is not a poor team that needs to pay its light bill. What would this money be allocated for? The chance of getting a FA? Considering the state of the club why would a FA come here? Considering the Sox have only overpaid once (Albert Belle) for a FA why would they start now? At the salary level this team will be next year and the future, looking for extra bucks for a guy with value to the team is wrong.

Rocky Soprano
08-08-2013, 04:53 PM
He has value to the Rangers in the sense that he is marginally better than Craig Gentry. He DOES NOT have value to the White Sox that is even close to $17.5M.

The White Sox win this trade by literally giving him away for nothing and freeing themselves of his contract. If they can get rid of him, their financial obligation for next season will be under $50M, and under $30M for 2015. It will give them the opportunity to have the financial flexibility to rebuild in the next 2 years that they have sorely lacked recently because they have had so many bad contracts.

It will be the best day of the year for the Sox if this happens- regardless if they get a filler prospect from the Rangers or not.

If he's valuable to the Rangers then why should the Sox give him away for nothing? He's arguably the best bat for the Sox so he DOES have value. Maybe not at $17.5M but he does have value for the Sox.

The Sox are not hurting financially and thus not looking to just unload his salary so I don't see how they win by just giving him away.

doublem23
08-08-2013, 04:55 PM
The Sox are not hurting financially and thus not looking to just unload his salary so I don't see how they win by just giving him away.

Agreed, if the Rangers don't want to play ball then **** THEM, they can go try and keep pace with Oakland with no replacement for one of their best hitters

sullythered
08-08-2013, 04:55 PM
A salary dump is crazy. This is not a poor team that needs to pay its light bill. What would this money be allocated for? The chance of getting a FA? Considering the state of the club why would a FA come here? Considering the Sox have only overpaid once (Albert Belle) for a FA why would they start now? At the salary level this team will be next year and the future, looking for extra bucks for a guy with value to the team is wrong.

Allocate the money towards scouting and development. No FA nonsense.

doublem23
08-08-2013, 04:56 PM
Considering the state of the club why would a FA come here?

http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/pile-of-money-psd6129.png

Remember when Ivan Rodriguez, arguably the class of the 2003-2004 Free Agent class signed with the Tigers despite them coming off a record-breaking 119-loss season in 2003? It happens.

smac38
08-08-2013, 04:57 PM
Considering the Sox have only overpaid once (Albert Belle) for a FA why would they start now?

They got good value in Dunn's contract?

FielderJones
08-08-2013, 04:58 PM
This board has lost its collective mind.

Not the entire board. The folks who understand that all the leverage is on Rick Hahn's side and want something in return for Rios still have their marbles.

cards press box
08-08-2013, 04:59 PM
He has value to the Rangers in the sense that he is marginally better than Craig Gentry.

Marginally better than Gentry? Can't agree with that.

Rios is a lot better than Gentry and, more to the point, is the closest match available to replace Nelson Cruz' production.

As for your use of the word "marginally," remember what Inigo Montoya used to say about Vizzini's use of the word "inconceivable:"

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

Noneck
08-08-2013, 04:59 PM
Allocate the money towards scouting and development. No FA nonsense.


That should be done and should have been done for years. Thats a given if this Rios thing happens or not but I dont see teaching that old dog new tricks.

btw: I didnt see you yesterday, hope you had a good one.

doublem23
08-08-2013, 05:03 PM
Allocate the money towards scouting and development. No FA nonsense.

God, please no, this team has way too many holes to fill to fill them all internally.

If you think this year is bad, wait until we get 162 games of Travis Ishikawa at 1st.

KScRSCztMws

ZombieRob
08-08-2013, 05:11 PM
If they go after any kind of OF, I hope it's Shin-Soo Choo

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 05:12 PM
They got good value in Dunn's contract?

I'm not sure how the Sox overpaid for Belle, either. He was only one the best hitters ever who only drove in 152 runs for the Sox in '98, (270 rbis in two years with sox, more than any player in Sox history over two year period), leading the league with an OPS the highest in Sox history by a player not named Frank Thomas.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 05:15 PM
They got good value in Dunn's contract?

At the time, yes.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 05:15 PM
They got good value in Dunn's contract?

I never read that they overpaid at signing. Hindsight of course is 20/20.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 05:17 PM
http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/pile-of-money-psd6129.png

Remember when Ivan Rodriguez, arguably the class of the 2003-2004 Free Agent class signed with the Tigers despite them coming off a record-breaking 119-loss season in 2003? It happens.

Ilitch and Reinsdorf two different creatures.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 05:18 PM
Bernstein has been pushing the salary dump idea on the Score all day today, and Ken Rosenthal just basically took a dump on him and said you need to go for players in return.

Finally someone shut him up

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 05:21 PM
If you think this year is bad, wait until we get 162 games of Travis Ishikawa at 1st.


That's not ever going to happen. The Sox would play Keppinger, Gillespie, Viciedo or one of their infield prospects at first before Ishikawa. The dude is just filler for the Charlotte roster, he'll never see the light of day.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 05:23 PM
I never read that they overpaid at signing. Hindsight of course is 20/20.
You obviously didn't read the entire thread on WSI.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 05:26 PM
You obviously didn't read the entire thread on WSI.


Yea I did and was involved. Most were very thrilled.

hawkjt
08-08-2013, 05:30 PM
Sox need to get some prospects back for Alex.
Rios is going well right now,and can be immediately plugged into the rangers outfield and take care of it,which is exactly what they need right now.

Finally, the Sox are the ones with the leverage. Eat a few million if you must,but get some damn prospects!!

soxfanreggie
08-08-2013, 05:31 PM
Bernstein has been pushing the salary dump idea on the Score all day today, and Ken Rosenthal just basically took a dump on him and said you need to go for players in return.

Finally someone shut him up

You dump payroll in there is a plan for it. Ex. Savings from Rios will be used to sign a FA catcher. Savings from Dunn for a FA 3B. Then in the 2014 offseason you add a few more pieces. However if the goal was to pull a Marlins and keep payroll at $60 mil or below then that is a different story.

I'd rather both Dunn and Rios be gone, but I'd rather we eat part of the deals to buy a few prospects in return.


Sox need to get some prospects back for Alex.
Rios is going well right now,and can be immediately plugged into the rangers outfield and take care of it,which is exactly what they need right now.

Finally, the Sox are the ones with the leverage. Eat a few million if you must,but get some damn prospects!!


Completely agree with that last sentence.

PalehosePlanet
08-08-2013, 05:32 PM
Rangers top 20 loaded with good infield prospects:

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/#list=tex

Not saying we'll get a top 20, but I can dream, right?:smile:

We better score a top 20. Texas has a few good OF prospects in the minors but they are all aged 17-20 and are a long way from the majors. They can't help them now.

Hahn holds all the cards and if Texas doesn't want to play ball, then let them try to make the playoffs w/one decent OF (Leonys Martin) on their roster. They need Rios even if Cruz hadn't been suspended. They gave up four players for two months of Garza; that's a complete waste if they get conservative now.

Noneck
08-08-2013, 05:34 PM
Finally, the Sox are the ones with the leverage. Eat a few million if you must,but get some damn prospects!!


Thats what scares me that the Sox wont eat some salary and only consider getting rid of salary.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 05:36 PM
Yea I did and was involved. Most were very thrilled.

You must have skipped over my posts where I showed that Juan Pierre historically was more likely to drive in a runner already on base than Dunn.

I also recall a number of posters claiming Williams was bidding against himself, because no one else wanted to sign him.

Here's the post I made that led to me showing Pierre was more likely to drive in a runner to back up this initial claim:

"Hate to be a downer, but I give Sox fans about 2 months of their cleanup hitter whiffing regularly with runners in scoring position before they've had enough of Dunn. Over his career, Dunn has failed to put the ball in play with runners in scoring position 48.4% of the time. The dude lives on putting up garbage time numbers."
__________________

Fastball23
08-08-2013, 05:38 PM
Bruce Levine ‏@ESPNBruceLevine 25m (https://twitter.com/ESPNBruceLevine/status/365581210971418624)
White Sox will want Martin and may have to settle for Leri Garcia and other prospects

Noneck
08-08-2013, 05:49 PM
You must have skipped over my posts where I showed that Juan Pierre historically was more likely to drive in a runner already on base than Dunn.

I also recall a number of posters claiming Williams was bidding against himself, because no one else wanted to sign him.

Yea maybe you, I and Tdog werent trilled but most were.

sullythered
08-08-2013, 05:54 PM
That should be done and should have been done for years. Thats a given if this Rios thing happens or not but I dont see teaching that old dog new tricks.

btw: I didnt see you yesterday, hope you had a good one.

Thanks. Yeah, awesome bday.

kittle42
08-08-2013, 05:58 PM
"Hate to be a downer, but I give Sox fans about 2 months of their cleanup hitter whiffing regularly with runners in scoring position before they've had enough of Dunn. Over his career, Dunn has failed to put the ball in play with runners in scoring position 48.4% of the time. The dude lives on putting up garbage time numbers."
__________________

Dunn: 3584 plate appearances with men on base. 674 hits, 849 RBI. .239 BA.

Pierre: 2827 PA, 705 hits, 503 RBI. .290

Pretty surprising, I think.

Harry Chappas
08-08-2013, 06:01 PM
Thats what scares me that the Sox wont eat some salary and only consider getting rid of salary.

I think this is what they should do which means it probably won't happen. For anything resembling a legit prospect, the Sox will probably have to eat some of AR's contract I would think.

I'd be more comfortable with the idea of dumping his salary if I had faith that the Sox would actually use it wisely (i.e. invest it in their farm system, acquire solid free agents, etc.).

SCCWS
08-08-2013, 06:06 PM
I'd be more comfortable with the idea of dumping his salary if I had faith that the Sox would actually use it wisely (i.e. invest it in their farm system, acquire solid free agents, etc.).

If they acquire solid free agents they will also have to invest in more Fireworks.

PalehosePlanet
08-08-2013, 06:07 PM
Bruce Levine ‏@ESPNBruceLevine25m (https://twitter.com/ESPNBruceLevine/status/365581210971418624)
White Sox will want Martin and may have to settle for Leri Garcia and other prospects

There is no way that Texas would trade us Martin as he is the Rangers best OF'er right now. Also knowing that they are short on OF'ers I don't think there is a chance in hell that Hahn would even ask for a current MLB rostered OF'er in return. Bruce Levine, or his source, is obviously full of ****.

Also, hopefully we can score better than Leury Garcia.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 06:11 PM
Dunn: 3584 plate appearances with men on base. 674 hits, 849 RBI. .239 BA.

Pierre: 2827 PA, 705 hits, 503 RBI. .290

Pretty surprising, I think.

You were slamming me in that thread back then, but the numbers were with Pierre at the plate 13.5% of runners scored, with Dunn 13% for their careers at that point...it's all in the original we signed Dunn thread.

kittle42
08-08-2013, 06:15 PM
You were slamming me in that thread back then, but the numbers were with Pierre at the plate 13.5% of runners scored, with Dunn 13% for their careers at that point...it's all in the original we signed Dunn thread.

Well, I should have looked more closely at the stats. Of course, I don't think any team would consider hitting Pierre 3-6 in a lineup, but it's interesting.

asindc
08-08-2013, 06:15 PM
Dunn: 3584 plate appearances with men on base. 674 hits, 849 RBI. .239 BA.

Pierre: 2827 PA, 705 hits, 503 RBI. .290

Pretty surprising, I think.

This is the kind of stat that illustrates why OBP has limited value in indicating a player's offensive worth.

TheVulture
08-08-2013, 06:18 PM
Well, I should have looked more closely at the stats. Of course, I don't think any team would consider hitting Pierre 3-6 in a lineup, but it's interesting.

Well, I wasn't trying to claim Pierre was as good as run producer, only that Dunn was about as bad as you can get for 40 HR guy because he didn't put the ball into play half the time. It wasn't a well received argument I have to admit.

KRS1
08-08-2013, 06:19 PM
I don't let Rios go for nothing. In fact, I'd be asking for the same bounty I was before the deadline.

XplodingScorbord
08-08-2013, 06:23 PM
I don't let Rios go for nothing. In fact, I'd be asking for the same bounty I was before the deadline.

Nah, let him go. The Sox don't need a .270 hitter that steals 30 bases. It's loony land here. I realize lots of people don't like the guy here, but let's get real. You don't give that guy away for nothing in return. If you end up having to keep him, he helps next years team more than running Jordan Danks out there <shudder>.

Over By There
08-08-2013, 07:05 PM
To those so eager to give Rios away via waivers, just to dump salary, I ask: why the rush? The Sox have leverage here. How much is debatable, but leverage is what turns old players/overpaid players/expiring contracts/etc. into good returns in trades. At this moment, the Rangers need Rios much worse than we need to get rid of him. Leverage. Hahn should absolutely hold the line here and try to get some value other than just dumping salary.

Again, there's no rush. Even if the Sox end up in the position where there is no market for Rios and they just have to let him walk for no real return, that can be accomplished in the offseason. Scrambling to let go of our #3 hitter for nothing is a silly, emotional reaction.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 07:10 PM
To those so eager to give Rios away via waivers, just to dump salary, I ask: why the rush? The Sox have leverage here. How much is debatable, but leverage is what turns old players/overpaid players/expiring contracts/etc. into good returns in trades. At this moment, the Rangers need Rios much worse than we need to get rid of him. Leverage. Hahn should absolutely hold the line here and try to get some value other than just dumping salary.

Again, there's no rush. Even if the Sox end up in the position where there is no market for Rios and they just have to let him walk for no real return, that can be accomplished in the offseason. Scrambling to let go of our #3 hitter for nothing is a silly, emotional reaction.

If you are going to give him away for nothing this winter, you might as well save $4 million get rid of him now and create space to see what you have in Garcia.

Mr. Jinx
08-08-2013, 07:17 PM
To those so eager to give Rios away via waivers, just to dump salary, I ask: why the rush? The Sox have leverage here. How much is debatable, but leverage is what turns old players/overpaid players/expiring contracts/etc. into good returns in trades. At this moment, the Rangers need Rios much worse than we need to get rid of him. Leverage. Hahn should absolutely hold the line here and try to get some value other than just dumping salary.

Again, there's no rush. Even if the Sox end up in the position where there is no market for Rios and they just have to let him walk for no real return, that can be accomplished in the offseason. Scrambling to let go of our #3 hitter for nothing is a silly, emotional reaction.

If they wait until the offseason, it is highly likely that nobody is going to pick him up then and pay all of his contract as there will be better OF opportunities available fro less than what Rios makes.. The Sox have an opportunity now to dump that deal rather than wait for the winter to trade him for a few weak prospects and chip in cash to boot.

Over By There
08-08-2013, 07:19 PM
For a place so eager to bag on the Sox for pinching pennies, WSI sure has turned into a bunch of fiscal ****ing hawks. Give away one of our best hitters so we can save $3 or $4 million? It's like I don't even know who you people are anymore.

XplodingScorbord
08-08-2013, 07:25 PM
For a place so eager to bag on the Sox for pinch inning pennies, WSI sure has turned into a bunch of fiscal ****ing hawks. Give away one of our best hitters so we can save $3 or $4 million? It's like I don't even know who you people are anymore.

Post of the day!

ZombieRob
08-08-2013, 07:37 PM
If they wait until the offseason, it is highly likely that nobody is going to pick him up then and pay all of his contract as there will be better OF opportunities available fro less than what Rios makes.. The Sox have an opportunity now to dump that deal rather than wait for the winter to trade him for a few weak prospects and chip in cash to boot.
Good post. Any which way you put it, it's a gamble. No one can predict what teams will want next season at the Deadline. Wait till offseason Sox IMO lose leverage anyway. Teams will know the Sox are desperate to dump. Dump him now you open up a sport for Garcia and don't have to worry about it later. Then they have flexebility to plan out next offseason with De Aza or Viciedo.

soltrain21
08-08-2013, 07:37 PM
For a place so eager to bag on the Sox for pinching pennies, WSI sure has turned into a bunch of fiscal ****ing hawks. Give away one of our best hitters so we can save $3 or $4 million? It's like I don't even know who you people are anymore.

Well, he makes like 15 million next year, too.

ZombieRob
08-08-2013, 07:39 PM
Plus getting a High pick next year you can use that for bonus money. They may need it

Over By There
08-08-2013, 07:59 PM
Well, he makes like 15 million next year, too.

I was addressing the comment that the Sox "might as well" just save the remainder of the money due Rios this year. My point is that the Sox still have plenty of time to deal with the $15M due Rios next year, if they don't want him back. This whole, "we have to get rid of him now, at any cost!" sentiment is just silly, IMO.

dickallen15
08-08-2013, 08:03 PM
I was addressing the comment that the Sox "might as well" just save the remainder of the money due Rios this year. My point is that the Sox still have plenty of time to deal with the $15M due Rios next year, if they don't want him back. This whole, "we have to get rid of him now, at any cost!" sentiment is just silly, IMO.

And that comment was in response to the post that stated the could give him away this winter.

They don't have to get rid of him, but they should.

Mohoney
08-08-2013, 08:29 PM
We have to get something for him, how does a dump with nothing in return help the rebuild?

From what I can gather, the total savings would be $17+ million ($4+ million for the rest of 2013, $12.5 million for 2014, and the $1 million buyout for 2015.) Why waste those financial resources on a team that is rebuilding? I'm perfectly fine with Hahn getting what he can and saving the money. Hopefully someone claims Dunn, too.

Hitmen77
08-08-2013, 08:38 PM
well, he makes like 15 million next year, too.

$12.5m

lpneck
08-08-2013, 08:47 PM
If they wait until the offseason, it is highly likely that nobody is going to pick him up then and pay all of his contract as there will be better OF opportunities available fro less than what Rios makes.. The Sox have an opportunity now to dump that deal rather than wait for the winter to trade him for a few weak prospects and chip in cash to boot.

+1 zillion.

This is the only chance to get rid of him until the 2014 trade deadline. There will be no takers in the off season. Why would a team trade for $13.5M of Rios when they could just sign a better FA who would probably be cheaper?

I do agree with other posters that I think the White Sox should be willing to pay part of the salary if that's what it takes to get prospects in return, but I think it's crazy to think the Sox are going to get 17.5M in salary relief AND prospects.

ND_Sox_Fan
08-08-2013, 08:57 PM
JIM BOWDEN (@JimBowdenESPNxm)
White Sox are not getting Perez, Jackson or Odor for Rios but if price drops to Nick Martinez it could get done...tick tick tick tock


Thoughts?

PaleHoser
08-08-2013, 09:08 PM
Garcia needs a place to play. If he wasn't here, I'd feel differently.

Rios needs to go, even if it's just a giveaway. $17M due to Rios can go toward two pieces for next year. I would grade this deal based on what they get in the off-season with that money.

SoxSpeed22
08-08-2013, 09:17 PM
I'm in no hurry.
I'm in no hurry to get rid of Rios for a ****ty deal and I'm in no hurry to get Garcia here before September. I would like to get the best possible deal, and I am pleased to see Hahn aiming high, but ultimately, I think a B-/B type of guy is probably the best we will be able to do for Rios if we trade him in the offseason.

KRS1
08-08-2013, 09:22 PM
Where do you guys actually think these tens of millions of dollars we're shedding is actually going to be spent? Does anyone actually believe we have even a snowball's chance in hell of luring Ellsbury to this rebuilding franchise, or that we would ever put up the years and money it would actually take to bring him into such a situation? Do you want to spend that on a bunch of overpriced, mediocre fillers to help us battle it out for maybe third place in our own division? Would we see even half those eight figures that we've already shed funneled into the draft, scouting and international market?

doublem23
08-08-2013, 09:22 PM
Well, he makes like 15 million next year, too.

Obviously he meant give him away to Texas for nothing right now

Over By There
08-08-2013, 09:31 PM
Lets look for just a moment at the premise that no one would possibly be interested in Alex Rios this offseason, because that seems to be the primary argument of those that think we should let him go now with no return. I don't know if the list of available FA outfielders posted earlier in this thread is accurate or exhaustive, but these are the names that were listed, as reasons that Alex Rios would not be desirable to a team looking for an outfielder: "Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart." Let's just take a second and look at this list more closely.

Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.

Nelson Cruz can be a great hitter. But he is an admitted doper and has fought injuries.

Nate McLouth is garbage. Corey Hart has had one or two decent years and has otherwise primarily been injured.

Curtis Granderson is intriguing but has missed most of this season with injuries, and when he's played this year he's put together a .217 average.

Hunter Pence's numbers, again, are really not that different than Rios'. He's hitting .275 with 14 HRs and 17 SB.

So that leaves Ellsbury, who is clearly an elite leadoff man and will deserve the attention he gets. But that doesn't mean Alex Rios is worthless.

This is what annoys me, frankly. Several people in this thread have it in their head that Rios is worthless, and should be given away. That simply is not accurate. Look over that list above and tell me which outfielders you'd clearly rather have on your team over Alex Rios. Ellsbury, sure. But then where do you find significantly more production?

This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Listen, Rios has frustrated me at times, too. But when you look at the situation objectively, there is no reason to rush to give him away right now. Thats the only thing I'm arguing. Look at the list above again - there will be a market for Rios this offseason. Right now the Rangers are a little bit over the barrel - don't help them out, as Hawk would say.

Tragg
08-08-2013, 09:35 PM
No reason to give him away. He's signed for 1 year at 14 million. Not bad at all for his production.
just because we need Garcia to play doesn't mean you start giving away players.

KRS1
08-08-2013, 09:38 PM
Lets look for just a moment at the premise that no one would possibly be interested in Alex Rios this offseason, because that seems to be the primary argument of those that think we should let him go now with no return. I don't know if the list of available FA outfielders posted earlier in this thread is accurate or exhaustive, but these are the names that were listed, as reasons that Alex Rios would not be desirable to a team looking for an outfielder: "Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart." Let's just take a second and look at this list more closely.

Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.

Nelson Cruz can be a great hitter. But he is an admitted doper and has fought injuries.

Nate McLouth is garbage. Corey Hart has had one or two decent years and has otherwise primarily been injured.

Curtis Granderson is intriguing but has missed most of this season with injuries, and when he's played this year he's put together a .217 average.

Hunter Pence's numbers, again, are really not that different than Rios'. He's hitting .275 with 14 HRs and 17 SB.

So that leaves Ellsbury, who is clearly an elite leadoff man and will deserve the attention he gets. But that doesn't mean Alex Rios is worthless.

This is what annoys me, frankly. Several people in this thread have it in their head that Rios is worthless, and should be given away. That simply is not accurate. Look over that list above and tell me which outfielders you'd clearly rather have on your team over Alex Rios. Ellsbury, sure. But then where do you find significantly more production?

This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Listen, Rios has frustrated me at times, too. But when you look at the situation objectively, there is no reason to rush to give him away right now. Thats the only thing I'm arguing. Look at the list above again - there will be a market for Rios this offseason. Right now the Rangers are a little bit over the barrel - don't help them out, as Hawk would say.

What this guy said.^^^

Noneck
08-08-2013, 09:38 PM
Garcia needs a place to play. If he wasn't here, I'd feel differently.



The outfield can be Rios, DeAza, Garcia. DH/1B, Dunn, Viciedo. Paul can play on his retirement day this year.

Brian26
08-08-2013, 09:59 PM
JIM BOWDEN (@JimBowdenESPNxm)
White Sox are not getting Perez, Jackson or Odor for Rios but if price drops to Nick Martinez it could get done...tick tick tick tock


Thoughts?

Jim Bowden is a jackass. Is he advocating for the Rangers?


The Rangers can increase their offer, or else they can spend the rest of the season with Oddibe McDowell playing right field. Tick Tick Tick Tick.

DSpivack
08-08-2013, 10:05 PM
Lets look for just a moment at the premise that no one would possibly be interested in Alex Rios this offseason, because that seems to be the primary argument of those that think we should let him go now with no return. I don't know if the list of available FA outfielders posted earlier in this thread is accurate or exhaustive, but these are the names that were listed, as reasons that Alex Rios would not be desirable to a team looking for an outfielder: "Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart." Let's just take a second and look at this list more closely.

Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.

Nelson Cruz can be a great hitter. But he is an admitted doper and has fought injuries.

Nate McLouth is garbage. Corey Hart has had one or two decent years and has otherwise primarily been injured.

Curtis Granderson is intriguing but has missed most of this season with injuries, and when he's played this year he's put together a .217 average.

Hunter Pence's numbers, again, are really not that different than Rios'. He's hitting .275 with 14 HRs and 17 SB.

So that leaves Ellsbury, who is clearly an elite leadoff man and will deserve the attention he gets. But that doesn't mean Alex Rios is worthless.

This is what annoys me, frankly. Several people in this thread have it in their head that Rios is worthless, and should be given away. That simply is not accurate. Look over that list above and tell me which outfielders you'd clearly rather have on your team over Alex Rios. Ellsbury, sure. But then where do you find significantly more production?

This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Listen, Rios has frustrated me at times, too. But when you look at the situation objectively, there is no reason to rush to give him away right now. Thats the only thing I'm arguing. Look at the list above again - there will be a market for Rios this offseason. Right now the Rangers are a little bit over the barrel - don't help them out, as Hawk would say.

Fantastic post and I agree 100%.

SouthSideMike
08-08-2013, 10:07 PM
Hasn't been mentioned in this thread (at least I don't think so), but Fangraphs has Rios with the 7th highest wins above replacement among RFs since 2012. Hardly the bum some people are claiming, and certainly not someone you give away.

For a basis of comparison, the man he could replace on the Rangers, Nelson Cruz, is 23rd on the list.

PalehosePlanet
08-08-2013, 10:10 PM
JIM BOWDEN (@JimBowdenESPNxm)
White Sox are not getting Perez, Jackson or Odor for Rios but if price drops to Nick Martinez it could get done...tick tick tick tock


Thoughts?

Nick Martinez has a chance to be a good one, I'm actually okay w/that; I'm starting to be a Martin Perez non-believer; Luke Jackson looks good and would love to have him, but oh well...; and Odor we don't need because the only true organizational position depth the Sox have is at 2B.

kittle42
08-08-2013, 10:11 PM
What this guy said.^^^

Indeed. A voice of reason in this thread.

Even good players can dog it sometimes. Live with it. The numbers speak another story.

PalehosePlanet
08-08-2013, 10:12 PM
Hasn't been mentioned in this thread (at least I don't think so), but Fangraphs has Rios with the 7th highest wins above replacement among RFs since 2012. Hardly the bum some people are claiming, and certainly not someone you give away.

For a basis of comparison, the man he could replace on the Rangers, Nelson Cruz, is 23rd on the list.

Because, at WSI, there is a certain grass is always greener on the other side faction that's annoying as hell.

PalehosePlanet
08-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Lets look for just a moment at the premise that no one would possibly be interested in Alex Rios this offseason, because that seems to be the primary argument of those that think we should let him go now with no return. I don't know if the list of available FA outfielders posted earlier in this thread is accurate or exhaustive, but these are the names that were listed, as reasons that Alex Rios would not be desirable to a team looking for an outfielder: "Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart." Let's just take a second and look at this list more closely.

Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.

Nelson Cruz can be a great hitter. But he is an admitted doper and has fought injuries.

Nate McLouth is garbage. Corey Hart has had one or two decent years and has otherwise primarily been injured.

Curtis Granderson is intriguing but has missed most of this season with injuries, and when he's played this year he's put together a .217 average.

Hunter Pence's numbers, again, are really not that different than Rios'. He's hitting .275 with 14 HRs and 17 SB.

So that leaves Ellsbury, who is clearly an elite leadoff man and will deserve the attention he gets. But that doesn't mean Alex Rios is worthless.

This is what annoys me, frankly. Several people in this thread have it in their head that Rios is worthless, and should be given away. That simply is not accurate. Look over that list above and tell me which outfielders you'd clearly rather have on your team over Alex Rios. Ellsbury, sure. But then where do you find significantly more production?

This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Listen, Rios has frustrated me at times, too. But when you look at the situation objectively, there is no reason to rush to give him away right now. Thats the only thing I'm arguing. Look at the list above again - there will be a market for Rios this offseason. Right now the Rangers are a little bit over the barrel - don't help them out, as Hawk would say.

Excellent post my man!

And to those of you that keep saying that in the off-season Rios cannot be dealt because there are cheaper options, I ask you this: What's cheaper, Rios at 1/13 or 2/26 or Choo at 5/70 or Cruz at 3/45, etc... Most teams look at the total money of the deal, not the per year cost.

ZombieRob
08-08-2013, 11:00 PM
Excellent post my man!

And to those of you that keep saying that in the off-season Rios cannot be dealt because there are cheaper options, I ask you this: What's cheaper, Rios at 1/13 or 2/26 or Choo at 5/70 or Cruz at 3/45, etc... Most teams look at the total money of the deal, not the per year cost.
Doesn't have to be a FA signing. Teams can trade to improve and the Rangers have the bullets. We don't know who's going to be available on others teams.

canOcorn
08-08-2013, 11:15 PM
Nick Martinez has a chance to be a good one, I'm actually okay w/that; I'm starting to be a Martin Perez non-believer; Luke Jackson looks good and would love to have him, but oh well...; and Odor we don't need because the only true organizational position depth the Sox have is at 2B.

Agreed. Martinez isn't some complete salary dump. I highly doubt we're going to do better without eating salary. This Profar/Taillon pie in the sky stuff is crazy, it's never going to happen.

I really don't care about the salary because it's going into Jerry's retirement fund, but the idea that the market is going to shrink this winter and that some team is going to give up an A prospect for one year of Rios is simply absurd. And the Sox aren't making the playoffs with or without Rios next year.

Sure, I wouldn't dump Rios for the return Kenny got, but even a decent prospect is the best to expect.

ZombieRob
08-08-2013, 11:21 PM
Agreed. Martinez isn't some complete salary dump. I highly doubt we're going to do better without eating salary. This Profar/Taillon pie in the sky stuff is crazy, it's never going to happen.

I really don't care about the salary because it's going into Jerry's retirement fund, but the idea that the market is going to shrink this winter and that some team is going to give up an A prospect for one year of Rios is simply absurd. And the Sox aren't making the playoffs with or without Rios next year.

Sure, I wouldn't dump Rios for the return Kenny got, but even a decent prospect is the best to expect.
Good point. I think the Sox should take what they can get, and see what Brandon Jacobs and or Garcia can do.

LoveYourSuit
08-08-2013, 11:40 PM
Sox fans just amaze me.

They would build statues for bum ass "folk heroes" like an Aaron Rowand but fail to see true 5 tool talent in a guy like Alex Rios.

Look, I'm all for trading the guy to rebuild this team. Same way I was all for trading away Jake Peavy. But wake the **** up. Alex Rios, even at the current price tag, is an asset for this team. You just don't give him away.

One thing I appreciate about Hahn is that he's not looking to make moves just to appease the (stupid) masses.

CoopaLoop
08-08-2013, 11:57 PM
Sox fans just amaze me.

They would build statues for bum ass "folk heroes" like an Aaron Rowand but fail to see true 5 tool talent in a guy like Alex Rios.

Look, I'm all for trading the guy to rebuild this team. Same way I was all for trading away Jake Peavy. But wake the **** up. Alex Rios, even at the current price tag, is an asset for this team. You just don't give him away.

One thing I appreciate about Hahn is that he's not looking to make moves just to appease the (stupid) masses.

Agreed. I don't love Rios, but he is a valuable player.

The situation where the White Sox got him for free and this waiver period are not even close.

lpneck
08-09-2013, 12:12 AM
Sox fans just amaze me.

They would build statues for bum ass "folk heroes" like an Aaron Rowand but fail to see true 5 tool talent in a guy like Alex Rios.

Look, I'm all for trading the guy to rebuild this team. Same way I was all for trading away Jake Peavy. But wake the **** up. Alex Rios, even at the current price tag, is an asset for this team. You just don't give him away.

One thing I appreciate about Hahn is that he's not looking to make moves just to appease the (stupid) masses.

Aaron Rowand 5 years with White Sox: .283/.337/.451 + WS title (total salary with Sox- about $3M)

Alex Rios 5 years with White Sox: .269/.310/.430 + 0 playoff games (total salary with Sox- about $45M + $17M owed)

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:18 AM
The situation where the White Sox got him for free and this waiver period are not even close.

Exactly and the free part is most significant. No one has any idea if the money spent for Rios salary during his Sox tenure would have been used in a more significant way to help the team. (It may not have even been spent) A return now makes the original deal even a bigger plus deal.

FielderJones
08-09-2013, 12:24 AM
This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Not only does this thread need one of these:

:tomatoaward

it also needs one of these:

http://www.247waiter.com/_upload/products/13486100718333152950.jpg

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 12:24 AM
Sox fans just amaze me.

They would build statues for bum ass "folk heroes" like an Aaron Rowand but fail to see true 5 tool talent in a guy like Alex Rios.

Look, I'm all for trading the guy to rebuild this team. Same way I was all for trading away Jake Peavy. But wake the **** up. Alex Rios, even at the current price tag, is an asset for this team. You just don't give him away.

One thing I appreciate about Hahn is that he's not looking to make moves just to appease the (stupid) masses.
How did you feel the first 2 years he was here? Be honest. 90% on this site hated him and wanted him gone. Now they want something for this clown? Be glad he's gone and we don't have a player who plays when he feels like it.

amsteel
08-09-2013, 12:39 AM
If the Sox think they can get a player with similar production for less $ in 14, let him go. If the can't get what they want from the Rangers, rescind the waiver. If they legit want to keep him, keep him.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:40 AM
How did you feel the first 2 years he was here? Be honest. 90% on this site hated him and wanted him gone. Now they want something for this clown? Be glad he's gone and we don't have a player who plays when he feels like it.


I hope you dont mind if I put my two cents here. I thought he was one of the best Sox centerfielders to play in my lifetime when he came here and even started a poll here and didnt get any disagreements. The thing that frustrates me is that he is so damn talented and could in my eyes be a premier player. Its been a very long time since the Sox have had a 5 tool outfielder. I'm drawing a blank when the last one was. Bo Jackson was but not with the Sox.

shingo10
08-09-2013, 12:41 AM
Honestly does it really matter if we do a salary dump or keep him?

Either way its not going to make or break the future of the team. Rios is good and has had a solid two years. But he's not some huge impact player who is going to carry this team all by himself. If his money can get us a better team then I have no problems letting him walk. If it can't I have no problems keeping him.

Its just one decision in a rebuilding process.

kenfinan
08-09-2013, 12:49 AM
As a layman I think Rios should just be kept for now. Let the Sox try to have their fun for the rest of the season, and give some of these prospects a few starts to get some experience.

Do some major trades in the offseason if needed, but I don't think Rios will garner a lot of value right now, despite his talent. From what I can gather, the vibe right now is that hes too expensive and teams aren't going to budge.

Just a hunch.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 12:51 AM
How did you feel the first 2 years he was here? Be honest. 90% on this site hated him and wanted him gone. Now they want something for this clown? Be glad he's gone and we don't have a player who plays when he feels like it.

He's had one bad year here from the 4 so far.

Has been solid near All star level the other 3.

Not sure how this guy is looked at as a "clown."

I can go up and down the rosters we have had the last 4 years a name you plenty of true clown ahead of this guy.

RockJock07
08-09-2013, 12:52 AM
Allocate the money towards scouting and development. No FA nonsense.

This. The sox are gonna be bad next year, I don't want to see any of this money used on FA's unless they are roster fillers to get you through the season.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 01:19 AM
I hope you dont mind if I put my two cents here. I thought he was one of the best Sox centerfielders to play in my lifetime when he came here and even started a poll here and didnt get any disagreements. The thing that frustrates me is that he is so damn talented and could in my eyes be a premier player. Its been a very long time since the Sox have had a 5 tool outfielder. I'm drawing a blank when the last one was. Bo Jackson was but not with the Sox.
And that is exactly why I think we should just let him go. I think most are scared he's going to excel with the Rangers maybe, he has a better line up around him. But since he's been here, he plays when he wants to. I think the league is aware of that to. I agree with the last few posters, if you can wrangle a midlevel prospect fine, if not see ya. Then you can use that money to nab Granderson while he'll be on the cheap or some other lead off type hitter.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 01:21 AM
He's had one bad year here from the 4 so far.

Has been solid near All star level the other 3.

Not sure how this guy is looked at as a "clown."

I can go up and down the rosters we have had the last 4 years a name you plenty of true clown ahead of this guy.
And he's near the leader of the pack. And a talent that is lazy and get disinterested.

Rocky Soprano
08-09-2013, 01:31 AM
Aaron Rowand 5 years with White Sox: .283/.337/.451 + WS title (total salary with Sox- about $3M)

Alex Rios 5 years with White Sox: .269/.310/.430 + 0 playoff games (total salary with Sox- about $45M + $17M owed)

Why did you leave out HRs and RBIs?

Noneck
08-09-2013, 01:38 AM
Why did you leave out HRs and RBIs?


And stolen bases.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 01:39 AM
Why did you leave out HRs and RBIs?
RBI and HR's for a season aren't that much different. Rios never hit 27 in a season.

soxfanreggie
08-09-2013, 07:19 AM
This. The sox are gonna be bad next year, I don't want to see any of this money used on FA's unless they are roster fillers to get you through the season.

I disagree. If someone is available now that fits into the future plan - ex the catcher you want for the future.

dickallen15
08-09-2013, 07:34 AM
Lets look for just a moment at the premise that no one would possibly be interested in Alex Rios this offseason, because that seems to be the primary argument of those that think we should let him go now with no return. I don't know if the list of available FA outfielders posted earlier in this thread is accurate or exhaustive, but these are the names that were listed, as reasons that Alex Rios would not be desirable to a team looking for an outfielder: "Choo, Nelson Cruz, Ellsbury, McClouth, Pence, Granderson, and Corey Hart." Let's just take a second and look at this list more closely.

Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.

Nelson Cruz can be a great hitter. But he is an admitted doper and has fought injuries.

Nate McLouth is garbage. Corey Hart has had one or two decent years and has otherwise primarily been injured.

Curtis Granderson is intriguing but has missed most of this season with injuries, and when he's played this year he's put together a .217 average.

Hunter Pence's numbers, again, are really not that different than Rios'. He's hitting .275 with 14 HRs and 17 SB.

So that leaves Ellsbury, who is clearly an elite leadoff man and will deserve the attention he gets. But that doesn't mean Alex Rios is worthless.

This is what annoys me, frankly. Several people in this thread have it in their head that Rios is worthless, and should be given away. That simply is not accurate. Look over that list above and tell me which outfielders you'd clearly rather have on your team over Alex Rios. Ellsbury, sure. But then where do you find significantly more production?

This whole thing, to me, reeks of meatheadedness. Dah, dat Alex Rios plays like he don't care - get rid of da bum! Dah, Toronto didn't want dat guy and Kenny Williams got stuck with him 'cause he's an idiot! This is our chance to get out!

Listen, Rios has frustrated me at times, too. But when you look at the situation objectively, there is no reason to rush to give him away right now. Thats the only thing I'm arguing. Look at the list above again - there will be a market for Rios this offseason. Right now the Rangers are a little bit over the barrel - don't help them out, as Hawk would say.
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

I really am amazed at the number of posters who want to see him patroling RF next season. I would have thought they would be more like me, the replacement is ready, the money can be used elsewhere, his attitude at times is indifferent, don't ask for too much Mr. Hahn. I just think the Sox should obviously try to max out on the return, but I see this as an opportunity for more financial flexibility, and I doubt Rios' value is going to jump much in the next year, nor do I think he is in the long term plans for this team. I do think the Sox should try to buy a prospect here, throw in some money for someone who actually may contribute someday, but the price would have to be reasonable. $4-5 million for someone in their top 3 could work. Pay the balance of this years money, they get Rios for their pennant drive for no financial cost. The Sox get a decent prospect and flexibility in the offseason.

russ99
08-09-2013, 08:01 AM
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

I really am amazed at the number of posters who want to see him patroling RF next season. I would have thought they would be more like me, the replacement is ready, the money can be used elsewhere, his attitude at times is indifferent, don't ask for too much Mr. Hahn. I just think the Sox should obviously try to max out on the return, but I see this as an opportunity for more financial flexibility, and I doubt Rios' value is going to jump much in the next year, nor do I think he is in the long term plans for this team.

I don't think many of us want to see Rios in RF next year, those of us against the dump don't want the Sox to make a poor baseball move. We have to get something decent in return for one of our better assets.

And this idea that Jerry would take the savings from a Rios dump and invest it in the draft, international free agents, spend big in FA (after getting burned in 2010) and otherwise spend big in player development that he hasn't done in the 30+ years he's owned the club, I have to ask, what are you smoking??

SCCWS
08-09-2013, 08:40 AM
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

I really am amazed at the number of posters who want to see him patroling RF next season. I would have thought they would be more like me, the replacement is ready, the money can be used elsewhere, his attitude at times is indifferent, don't ask for too much Mr. Hahn. I just think the Sox should obviously try to max out on the return, but I see this as an opportunity for more financial flexibility, and I doubt Rios' value is going to jump much in the next year, nor do I think he is in the long term plans for this team. I do think the Sox should try to buy a prospect here, throw in some money for someone who actually may contribute someday, but the price would have to be reasonable. $4-5 million for someone in their top 3 could work. Pay the balance of this years money, they get Rios for their pennant drive for no financial cost. The Sox get a decent prospect and flexibility in the offseason.

Another concern on kepping Rios is how many other outfielders become available on the trade market next year. Hopefully Rios is the best player available on waivers right now, but we don't know that for sure. But even if he is, that does not make him the best available next winter when every team looking to upgrade may have an outfielder available. So Hahn needs to try and determine if Rios value right now is as good as it is going to get from a prospect standpoint.

EMel9281
08-09-2013, 08:49 AM
There are several different aspects that lead me to believe that Rios should be moved:

1) Even though rosters expand to 40 on Sept. 1, Hahn has said Garcia will be here at least by then. They want to give him regular AB's, and that's why he's in AAA. Why not give him the same when he is up with the club? Tank needs to be out there. I can't imagine PK, Dunn, or Rios sitting (at least quietly). So, move Rios and clear the room for Garcia.

2) We got him for nothing. Now is not a time to get greedy when Rios does not fit into the long term plan. Send him to Texas for nothing if need be.

3) The money saved could go into multiple other facets of the organization for improvement. We have Rios' replacement. Spend the money elsewhere upgrading other needs, i.e. 3B, 1B, C, etc.

I was excited when he obtained Rios, especially for not having to give up any prospects. However, the time to move on is now. I think he's frustrated with the club and is showing it on the field. Thank you, Alex, for your years on the Southside and good luck in Arlington...

Over By There
08-09-2013, 08:51 AM
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

I really am amazed at the number of posters who want to see him patroling RF next season. I would have thought they would be more like me, the replacement is ready, the money can be used elsewhere, his attitude at times is indifferent, don't ask for too much Mr. Hahn. I just think the Sox should obviously try to max out on the return, but I see this as an opportunity for more financial flexibility, and I doubt Rios' value is going to jump much in the next year, nor do I think he is in the long term plans for this team. I do think the Sox should try to buy a prospect here, throw in some money for someone who actually may contribute someday, but the price would have to be reasonable. $4-5 million for someone in their top 3 could work. Pay the balance of this years money, they get Rios for their pennant drive for no financial cost. The Sox get a decent prospect and flexibility in the offseason.

I've said my piece so I didn't feel much need to jump back into this thread, but I'll address this because you're changing the argument now. No one is saying we're going to get a "top prospect." Talk of getting someone like Profar for Rios is far-fetched. You won't find me saying that anywhere in my posts. But there is a huge gap between getting a top prospect and letting a guy walk for no compensation whatsoever.

I don't think the second paragraph was directed at me so I won't respond. But again I think you're changing the argument - I don't see many people arguing that he should be back next year.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 09:21 AM
Sox fans just amaze me.

They would build statues for bum ass "folk heroes" like an Aaron Rowand but fail to see true 5 tool talent in a guy like Alex Rios.

But, but, but - he ran into a wall! Grinder! Rios dogs it!

This is why Bears fans are a bunch of meatheads.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 09:22 AM
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

You won't even get a Top 100 prospect.

SCCWS
08-09-2013, 09:43 AM
You won't even get a Top 100 prospect.

I think you may be correct. But I would be concerned that if Rios stays and dogs it for the rest of the year, Hahn ends up next winter giving him away for a kid like the ones sitting on the couch in Animal House.

Mr. Jinx
08-09-2013, 09:52 AM
But, but, but - he ran into a wall! Grinder! Rios dogs it!

This is why Bears fans are a bunch of meatheads.

I hate cheering for guys who try hard too.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 10:17 AM
I hate cheering for guys who try hard too.

It's the stupid blue collar meathead mentality that seems to exist for every team in this town.

nsolo
08-09-2013, 10:23 AM
I say let Rios go. Yes, he's a five tool player, but only when he wants to be. As of now, I believe we wants to be somewhere else. His value may currently be at a high, as who becomes available later could change the equation.

Earlier in the year, I read so many posts about blowing up the team and starting from scratch. Now we're arguing about keeping a player who has a proven track record of dogging it not only here, but elsewhere. Don't think this hasn't been noted by other GM's.

If we get a decent prospect, good for us, but don't hold your breath. I'd just as soon see him move on to help close this ugly chapter. Even if we would have to eat a portion of all of his salary for a decent prospect, I feel it would be a positive move as nobody really believes he will be back next year.

If we do have to eat Rios salary, is there a 1st base prospect out there we could shoot for? This talk of moving Viciedo to 1st is scary.

Previously, I stated in another thread that I was so sick of this team that I couldn't follow it. That I might only check back in after the trade deadline. That being said and done, back to the shadows. Depending on future unfolding events, my best to all.

Anxious for the M Go Blue season.

hawkjt
08-09-2013, 10:30 AM
I agree that Rios's image took a big hit recently among Sox fans who are still paying attention due to the incident that Robin benched him for...but they are letting that cloud their rational assessment of his value.

I believe that Rosenthal said he was the 5th best WAR for rightfielders since the start of 2012....hey,gang, that is a valuable player for a contender who has just lost their best hitter, in Cruz.

Texas has already invested a huge amount in payroll,and they have tons of money from their tv deal...like 250-300 million/yr.
So the money is no object to them.
They have come close to winning a WS,but have just missed.
There are jobs at stake for them to make the playoffs again this year.
Daniels is desperate not to be aced out of at least the wildcard this year,after the A's have pantsed them twice now,with a fraction of the payroll.

The Rangers are desperate for a hitter. Rios is a five tool player who would be their best outfielder immediately.

If the Rangers do not come up with a decent package...screw them.
The Sox can get a bad deal in the offseason,and that would cost them 4 million to keep him around this season. He is our best hitting outfielder,so that is not a bad thing. Sit PK and have Tank play first,with Garcia in center or left....problem solved.

Hahn can show me something here...they are over the barrel...hammer them.

mantis1212
08-09-2013, 10:31 AM
Does anyone know the current rules for letting a free agent go and getting a draft pick from whoever signs him?

These 5 tools everyone talks about Rios having are mediocre tools at best. Hahn should bargain hard here in the next 48 hours, but if he can't even get a top 100 prospect, why not just let him go?

kittle42
08-09-2013, 10:31 AM
I hate cheering for guys who try hard too.

Results, results, results. Give me a guy with Rios' numbers who dogs it over a guy who hits .240/5/45 but plays his heart out.

This is the Cutler argument, too. Just crazy.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 10:32 AM
It's the stupid blue collar meathead mentality that seems to exist for every team in this town.

Which, IMO, plays a part in the city generally being willing to accept mediocrity from its teams. Generally.

"I'd rather lose a game and play hard than showboat and/or loaf and win!"

This isn't little league.

35th and Shields
08-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Which, IMO, plays a part in the city generally being willing to accept mediocrity from its teams. Generally.

"I'd rather lose a game and play hard than showboat and/or loaf and win!"

This isn't little league.

I don't buy that. Most Sox were fine with Alex last year because we were winning. It's the combination of us now losing and Rios legitimately looking like he doesn't give a **** that rubs people the wrong way. If we were leading the division nobody would have an issue with Rios.

SI1020
08-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Yeah I hate blue collar people too. It's a good thing they are being phased out of existence. They are unruly, unhip and drink decaf instead of the most expensive starbucks latte. Chicago really sucked when neighborhoods like Belmont Cragin and West Lawn were full of them. As for Rowand, yeah he stunk too. Lousy ball player and repulsive personality. I don't know why they let him have a WS ring. Grinders are like blue collar people. Wish they would all go away.

Saracen
08-09-2013, 10:43 AM
I agree that Rios's image took a big hit recently among Sox fans who are still paying attention due to the incident that Robin benched him for...but they are letting that cloud their rational assessment of his value.

I believe that Rosenthal said he was the 5th best WAR for rightfielders since the start of 2012....hey,gang, that is a valuable player for a contender who has just lost their best hitter, in Cruz.

Texas has already invested a huge amount in payroll,and they have tons of money from their tv deal...like 250-300 million/yr.
So the money is no object to them.
They have come close to winning a WS,but have just missed.
There are jobs at stake for them to make the playoffs again this year.
Daniels is desperate not to be aced out of at least the wildcard this year,after the A's have pantsed them twice now,with a fraction of the payroll.

The Rangers are desperate for a hitter. Rios is a five tool player who would be their best outfielder immediately.

If the Rangers do not come up with a decent package...screw them.
The Sox can get a bad deal in the offseason,and that would cost them 4 million to keep him around this season. He is our best hitting outfielder,so that is not a bad thing. Sit PK and have Tank play first,with Garcia in center or left....problem solved.

Hahn can show me something here...they are over the barrel...hammer them.
Not at all. The Rangers are not desperate. They may take on the salary, and that's it. JD's job is not at stake whatsoever. And how did they get pantsed twice by Oakland when they only lost to them last year primarily due to Josh Hamilton melting down and went to the World Series the previous 2 years?

They're not going to give anything. I don't care if Rios stays or goes, all the same to me. But it's ridiculous to think he'll bring anything but salary relief in return.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 10:48 AM
I don't buy that. Most Sox were fine with Alex last year because we were winning. It's the combination of us now losing and Rios legitimately looking like he doesn't give a **** that rubs people the wrong way. If we were leading the division nobody would have an issue with Rios.

You know who doesn't look like he gives a **** too? Konerko.

But no one calls him out.

Sometimes I wonder about the double standard (or other factors which I wish not to get into) here.

Harry Potter
08-09-2013, 10:48 AM
I must say, this is one of the better discussion threads we've had as of late (if not, this entire season)

:popcorn:

Milw
08-09-2013, 10:50 AM
Which, IMO, plays a part in the city generally being willing to accept mediocrity from its teams. Generally.

"I'd rather lose a game and play hard than showboat and/or loaf and win!"

This isn't little league.
Meathead checking in.

It's just sports. It's supposed to be fun. It's not life or death, it's not national security. It's entertainment.

Yeah, winning is fun. But if I can't be proud of the guys I'm cheering for, then I'm not interested. Call me provincial, call me unsophisticated, call me a meathead. All good.

You hit the nail on the head about the attitude of fans in this town, and I'm fine with it.

SouthSideMike
08-09-2013, 10:51 AM
Which, IMO, plays a part in the city generally being willing to accept mediocrity from its teams. Generally.

"I'd rather lose a game and play hard than showboat and/or loaf and win!"

This isn't little league.


Reminds me of all the meatball Bears fans who call into the radio and say they'd take a losing season if it meant playing hard against the Packers and beating them.

Milw
08-09-2013, 10:54 AM
You know who doesn't look like he gives a **** too? Konerko.

But no one calls him out.

Sometimes I wonder about the double standard (or other factors which I wish not to get into) here.
Right, because the fans automatically give a pass to white players. Adam Dunn ring a bell?

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 11:05 AM
Right, because the fans automatically give a pass to white players. Adam Dunn ring a bell?

I was referring to the overwhelming name calling (clown, hot dog, bum) of what IMO is a very productive ML player.

Why is that?

I find that not fair for the guy.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 11:09 AM
Yeah I hate blue collar people too. It's a good thing they are being phased out of existence. They are unruly, unhip and drink decaf instead of the most expensive starbucks latte. Chicago really sucked when neighborhoods like Belmont Cragin and West Lawn were full of them. As for Rowand, yeah he stunk too. Lousy ball player and repulsive personality. I don't know why they let him have a WS ring. Grinders are like blue collar people. Wish they would all go away.

Wow. What a stretch you're making as far as my or anyone else's comments go. Just ridiculous.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 11:09 AM
Right, because the fans automatically give a pass to white players. Adam Dunn ring a bell?

Aaaaaaand, that might do it as well.

35th and Shields
08-09-2013, 11:11 AM
You know who doesn't look like he gives a **** too? Konerko.

But no one calls him out.

Sometimes I wonder about the double standard (or other factors which I wish not to get into) here.

Konerko is a known class act around the league at the end of his career and one the franchises icons. Your going to compare him to Rios? A guy who has youtube videos that show him cursing at fans and teammates calling him out for sleeping before games? The two don't compare.

Back to your point, what has Paulie done to show he's mailing it in?

cws05champ
08-09-2013, 11:11 AM
I'm all for trading him to free up space for Garcia, but not to just give him away for nothing. What in this organization's recent past makes people think the $4M this year will be plowed back into scouting/development or another player? It will only serve to aid the profits of the owners.

I would much rather they send that $4M along with Rios to the Rangers for a couple good prospects ( I would ask for Neil Ramirez and Ronald Guzman personally) so we know the money is being used to try and improve the future of the club. I don't know why the owners/front office continually refuse to send money along with players to improve the prospects we get back in deals.

You don't let a 5 tool player go for nothing with only one year and 2 months on his contract unless his contract is completely out of line with the market. Is he over priced....yes, but not by much. The Sox have the leverage here with the Rangers needing a bat to compete this year. Get a decent prospect back or pull Rios back.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 11:11 AM
Meathead checking in.

It's just sports. It's supposed to be fun. It's not life or death, it's not national security. It's entertainment.

Yeah, winning is fun. But if I can't be proud of the guys I'm cheering for, then I'm not interested. Call me provincial, call me unsophisticated, call me a meathead. All good.

You hit the nail on the head about the attitude of fans in this town, and I'm fine with it.

Ray Lewis is one thing to have a problem rooting for. A guy who occasionally loafs like Rios is another.

Sports are also more important a hobby to some than others. I don't think you win at all costs (see PEDs), but really, really wanting to win and not finding entertainment in losing teams is fine. So is your opinion.

kittle42
08-09-2013, 11:12 AM
Back to your point, what has Paulie done to show he's mailing it in?

I think he's just done (diminished skills). Mailing it in? Nah.

Milw
08-09-2013, 11:17 AM
I was referring to the overwhelming name calling (clown, hot dog, bum) of what IMO is a very productive ML player.

Why is that?

I find that not fair for the guy.
There was a play earlier this year when he was called out on a borderline strike three, and the pitch went to the backstop. Rather than running to first, which he would have made quite easily, he argued with the umpire until the catcher jogged back with the ball and tagged him out. I don't recall the precise game situation, but I know the score was close and his run mattered.

That pretty well sums up Alex Rios. Fantastically talented, but either too oblivious, dumb or full of himself to make the most of his potential. Lots of guys have some or all of those traits, but they make up for it by busting their ass on a daily basis. Rios hustles when he wants to, which isn't often. I loathe Rios.

All that said, I spend far more game-watching time bitching about Adam Dunn than Alex Rios. Last I checked, Dunn's not a minority. There's plenty of racism in the world, but fans' dislike of Rios isn't an example.

soltrain21
08-09-2013, 11:22 AM
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/popcorn_2.gif

soltrain21
08-09-2013, 11:24 AM
Konerko is a known class act around the league at the end of his career and one the franchises icons. Your going to compare him to Rios? A guy who has youtube videos that show him cursing at fans and teammates calling him out for sleeping before games? The two don't compare.

Back to your point, what has Paulie done to show he's mailing it in?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/07/sports/basketball/07naps.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Look at these LOSERS who nap before games.

doublem23
08-09-2013, 11:31 AM
It's the stupid blue collar meathead mentality that seems to exist for every team in this town.

:rolling:

You think it's only in Chicago? Look at the way people fawn over Tim Tebow, Jeremy Lin, any random ****ty hockey player, etc. I could go on.

doublem23
08-09-2013, 11:34 AM
You know who doesn't look like he gives a **** too? Konerko

That's ****ing crap, Konerko looks like an old guy whose just not physically able to perform at his best level any more.

Your eye for talent seems to be bent on proving your predisposed hypothesis correct, for reasons I have no idea, I guess so you can pretend to be on some higher moral cloud than everyone else?

Get over it.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 11:35 AM
:rolling:

You think it's only in Chicago? Look at the way people fawn over Tim Tebow, Jeremy Lin, any random ****ty hockey player, etc. I could go on.

Perhaps, not sure at what levels since I don't live in those towns.

asindc
08-09-2013, 11:35 AM
Because, at WSI, there is a certain grass is always greener on the other side faction that's annoying as hell.

Amen to that. It is extremely annoying.

XplodingScorbord
08-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Hey, look, I'm a meathead who would rather watch a guy play hard than not play hard. I actually would rather watch an 88-win team with good guys than a 110 win team with roiders and jerks. But I do want to watch winning baseball.

If Rios' attitude were better, people would be all about keeping him to rebuild around, which just goes to show how idiotic it is to give him away for nothing just because we don't like his attitude.

If he was hitting what he's hitting, stealing the bases he's stealing, and was likable? He'd be a freaking hero. This board would melt down if we just gave him away for salary relief. There'd be screaming about how cheap Jerry Reinsdorf is.

But we don't like the way he carries himself, so he can just get lost. Unbelievable how short-sighted that is.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 11:39 AM
Dunn has cleared waivers BTW. Unfortunately no one found it worthy of taking on the contract. Which was expected.

doublem23
08-09-2013, 11:39 AM
Perhaps, not sure at what levels since I don't live in those towns.

Have you heard of this thing called the Inter-Nets? Pretty easy to read stuff from like, the whole world now, man.

XplodingScorbord
08-09-2013, 11:40 AM
Dunn has cleared waivers BTW. Unfortunately no one found it worthy of taking on the contract. Which was expected.

They didn't want to risk getting STUCK with his contract. We might still be able to deal him if we eat some. His clearing waivers is not a bad thing. We can trade him to anyone now.

#1swisher
08-09-2013, 11:43 AM
Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) 20m (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/365855713697861633)

Adam Dunn clears waivers, eligible to be traded anywhere. he'll make nearly $20M thru '14 but is hot http://cbsprt.co/1exCcIn (http://t.co/8SO6o3Zkkg)

Noneck
08-09-2013, 11:46 AM
They didn't want to risk getting STUCK with his contract. We might still be able to deal him if we eat some. His clearing waivers is not a bad thing. We can trade him to anyone now.

Its very good that he cleared but the Sox will have to eat quite a bit of his salary and dont much of a return. It would be basically a dump of whatever they can which is fine by me.

asindc
08-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Konerko is a known class act around the league at the end of his career and one the franchises icons. Your going to compare him to Rios? A guy who has youtube videos that show him cursing at fans and teammates calling him out for sleeping before games? The two don't compare.

Back to your point, what has Paulie done to show he's mailing it in?

1) The YouTube video is actually showing Rios being harassed by an autograph broker who was using a kid as a front.

2) Many guys take naps before games, so that is as much a non-issue as anything.

Konerko is not dogging it, he's done. Rios dogs it at times, but he is still among the better all-around OFs in the game. If Texas doesn't want to give anything at all of worth to the Sox, then they should get nothing.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 11:51 AM
Back to your point, what has Paulie done to show he's mailing it in?

Its very tough not to be able to do things that you did very well before. Being extremely frustrated may look like mailing it in but it isnt.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 11:52 AM
So if you were a GM and needed an OF you would rather give up a top prospect for Alex Rios than keep the top prospect and just sign one of the guys mentioned?

I really am amazed at the number of posters who want to see him patroling RF next season. I would have thought they would be more like me, the replacement is ready, the money can be used elsewhere, his attitude at times is indifferent, don't ask for too much Mr. Hahn. I just think the Sox should obviously try to max out on the return, but I see this as an opportunity for more financial flexibility, and I doubt Rios' value is going to jump much in the next year, nor do I think he is in the long term plans for this team. I do think the Sox should try to buy a prospect here, throw in some money for someone who actually may contribute someday, but the price would have to be reasonable. $4-5 million for someone in their top 3 could work. Pay the balance of this years money, they get Rios for their pennant drive for no financial cost. The Sox get a decent prospect and flexibility in the offseason.
They could use that money for their system and start competing internationally for prospects.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 11:54 AM
You know who doesn't look like he gives a **** too? Konerko.

But no one calls him out.

Sometimes I wonder about the double standard (or other factors which I wish not to get into) here.
I do. I think we waited a year or two, to late.

dickallen15
08-09-2013, 11:54 AM
Its funny all the people who say let Rios go are meatheads he is a five tool talent. If he is so great how come he was acquired for nothing and no team wants to give up anything of significance for him? And don't give me the Blue Jays had money issues BS. Their ownership is one of the richest in baseball.

And if you think JR is just going to pocket the money, hasn't the payroll actually increased just about every year? You base this claim on nothing.

kobo
08-09-2013, 11:55 AM
Dunn has cleared waivers BTW. Unfortunately no one found it worthy of taking on the contract. Which was expected.
Or no team wants/needs Adam Dunn. It's not just a one way street.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2013, 11:55 AM
Its very good that he cleared but the Sox will have to eat quite a bit of his salary and dont much of a return. It would be basically a dump of whatever they can which is fine by me.
No argument here. Dunn is truly the type of contract you want to dump for nothing.

JR is not known for eating salary, I wonder if he would in this case.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 11:57 AM
They could use that money for their system and start competing internationally for prospects.

Yea they could and should have been working on the minor league system for years. That was going to happen when they got Buddy Bell and it was basically sos. The change in philosophy has to come from the very top and I dont see it happening.

#1swisher
08-09-2013, 11:59 AM
Phil Rogers ‏@ChiTribRogers (https://twitter.com/ChiTribRogers) 8m (https://twitter.com/ChiTribRogers/status/365862206459494401)

@JimBowdenESPNxm (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm) says no Alex Rios trade upcoming;


@JonHeymanCBS (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) reports Adam Dunn has cleared waivers. He's also of interest to Texas.


JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm) 13m (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/365861387739729921)
Chance that the #White (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23White&src=hash) Sox trade Alex Rios to the #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) today "smaller than a bread basket" according to a source involved in trade talks

kobo
08-09-2013, 11:59 AM
I do. I think we waited a year or two, to late.
You really believe Konerko is mailing it in? *** are you people seeing that the rest of us aren't? Paulie has never been an excitable guy. I haven't seen or noticed any sort of change in his attitude which would lead me to believe that he doesn't give a **** anymore. Seriously, I think some of you are just grasping at whatever you can to try and justify your opinions.

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 12:07 PM
Yea they could and should have been working on the minor league system for years. That was going to happen when they got Buddy Bell and it was basically sos. The change in philosophy has to come from the very top and I dont see it happening.
100% with you on this, and I don't think it's pointed out enough. The philosophy has to be chance from A to AAA. Amazing how Dodgers and other teams can get nice international players and the Sox get the scraps.

cws05champ
08-09-2013, 12:10 PM
Its funny all the people who say let Rios go are meatheads he is a five tool talent. If he is so great how come he was acquired for nothing and no team wants to give up anything of significance for him? And don't give me the Blue Jays had money issues BS. Their ownership is one of the richest in baseball.

And if you think JR is just going to pocket the money, hasn't the payroll actually increased just about every year? You base this claim on nothing.
No Payroll has fluctuated....from 2005-2008 it went from $75M to $121M which is understandable coming off the WS and the team trying to keep winning.
2008 $121M
2009 $96M
2010 $103M
2011 $127M
2012 $97M
2013 $118M

My point is, I would rather the club eat some salary in these trades to get some good prospects for the future building of the team instead of just having other teams take on the whole salary and getting back a marginal organizational filler.

PalehosePlanet
08-09-2013, 12:11 PM
Phil Rogers ‏@ChiTribRogers (https://twitter.com/ChiTribRogers) 8m (https://twitter.com/ChiTribRogers/status/365862206459494401)

@JimBowdenESPNxm (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm) says no Alex Rios trade upcoming;


@JonHeymanCBS (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS) reports Adam Dunn has cleared waivers. He's also of interest to Texas.


JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm) 13m (https://twitter.com/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/365861387739729921)
Chance that the #White (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23White&src=hash) Sox trade Alex Rios to the #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) today "smaller than a bread basket" according to a source involved in trade talks

Nonsense! I think the chance of a trade is as large as a wine bottle rack!

ZombieRob
08-09-2013, 12:12 PM
You really believe Konerko is mailing it in? *** are you people seeing that the rest of us aren't? Paulie has never been an excitable guy. I haven't seen or noticed any sort of change in his attitude which would lead me to believe that he doesn't give a **** anymore. Seriously, I think some of you are just grasping at whatever you can to try and justify your opinions.
No so much mailing it in, but waited to long to get any value for him. And got caught in a catch 22 with last years season.

The Immigrant
08-09-2013, 12:13 PM
Amazing how Dodgers and other teams can get nice international players and the Sox get the scraps.

The Sox had serious deficiencies in this department over the last few years, there's no question. I blame it on Dave Wilder. It takes a little while to recover from that type of a scandal. Bringing in Marco Paddy was a step in the right direction, and some of the recent international signings - particularly Micker Zapata - give me hope that the organization has gone back to the approach that allowed us to sign guys like Magglio and El Caballo in the past.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:21 PM
Amazing how Dodgers and other teams can get nice international players and the Sox get the scraps.

The international market is one where you may have to overpay. You have to be willing to lay out some big money for only a possibility of return. This is for totally unproven players and the Sox dont do this, they avoided these kind of players in the draft before and I dont see them changing their mindset.

slavko
08-09-2013, 12:21 PM
Lots of good logic here, all leading to different conclusions. No one here thinks he's worth his money, that's a fact. They have Garcia waiting for a chance, that's a fact. Expecting to get a valuable prospect for a player that's not worth the money he's making would seem to be unreasonable.

Some of his "Five Tools" have eroded to mediocrity and we're guilty of overvaluing him. Since he's blocking Garcia, what's the harm in letting him go, whether the savings wind up in player development or in management's pocket?

PalehosePlanet
08-09-2013, 12:25 PM
100% with you on this, and I don't think it's pointed out enough. The philosophy has to be chance from A to AAA. Amazing how Dodgers and other teams can get nice international players and the Sox get the scraps.

Keep in mind though that the rules have changed regarding signing young international players. There is a draft now. It is no longer a free-for-all like the old days.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have international scouts/personnel always on the search for talent. But the days where a Dodgers scout would hop from town to town and scoop up 15-20 sixteen year old kids while the rest of MLB was completely oblivious are long gone.

Fastball23
08-09-2013, 12:27 PM
TR Sullivan ‏@Sullivan_Ranger 4m (https://twitter.com/Sullivan_Ranger/status/365870492843913216)
Major League sources, "don't see it" as far as a trade between the Rangers and White Sox involving Rios

doublem23
08-09-2013, 12:27 PM
The international market is one where you may have to overpay. You have to be willing to lay out some big money for only a possibility of return. This is for totally unproven players and the Sox dont do this, they avoided these kind of players in the draft before and I dont see them changing their mindset.

Well the new international spending limits set by the CBA should work to our favor in that regard.

But to say the Sox have simply been "cheap" is not entirely accurate, they had their head of Latin American scouting and his scouts taking kickbacks from contracts they signed on players they knew probably weren't going to pan out in America. That's the kind of scandal that takes years to recover from, especially given in Latin America, kids are signed when they're still teenagers. Given that Wilder was in charge of Latin America from 2004-2008 (I believe), the kids he would have been scouting would have been 21-25 today... Basically should be entering the upper levels of the organization. The move to hire Marco Paddy away from Toronto and the subsequent signings the Sox have made since then are a move in the right direction, but in international scouting, much moreso than in the Draft, it takes a lot of patience to see if the fruits of that operation.

DSpivack
08-09-2013, 12:28 PM
Lots of good logic here, all leading to different conclusions. No one here thinks he's worth his money, that's a fact. They have Garcia waiting for a chance, that's a fact. Expecting to get a valuable prospect for a player that's not worth the money he's making would seem to be unreasonable.

Some of his "Five Tools" have eroded to mediocrity and we're guilty of overvaluing him. Since he's blocking Garcia, what's the harm in letting him go, whether the savings wind up in player development or in management's pocket?

Because even with Rios, the 2014 committed payroll right now is $59 million (with arb players and options, that would mean a payroll of around $75 million). Letting Rios and his contract depart does not make signing international players any easier, especially with the tougher signing standards under the new CBA; the way to sign more international players now is via trading for those slots, not in cutting veterans to save payroll dollars.

Unlike Adam Dunn, I do not think Rios is terribly overpaid, given his production in RF and in comparison to the other RFs in MLB. Letting him go would be dumping an asset that still has some value for nothing. Simply because a player is unlikable for a number of reasons, or that the fanbase has little respect for a player for valid reasons, does not mean the most prudent decision is that letting that asset walk and receiving nothing in return.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Since he's blocking Garcia, what's the harm in letting him go, whether the savings wind up in player development or in management's pocket?


I might have missed something here but how is he blocking Garcia? Outfield of DeAza, Rios, Garcia. DH/1B Dunn, Viciedo. Paulie is through, he can fill in at DH and 1st for rest of year. Next year who knows but even if Rios is still around , he doesnt have to block Garcia.

DSpivack
08-09-2013, 12:31 PM
I might have missed something here but how is he blocking Garcia? Outfield of DeAza, Rios, Garcia. DH/1B Dunn, Viciedo. Paulie is through, he can fill in at DH and 1st for rest of year. Next year who knows but even if Rios is still around , he doesnt have to block Garcia.

Garcia has been playing CF in Charlotte, right? Barring an offseason trade of Rios (which would not be a surprise), a 2014 OF of De Aza in LF, Garcia in CF, and Rios in RF would not be a shock.

dickallen15
08-09-2013, 12:35 PM
Because even with Rios, the 2014 committed payroll right now is $59 million (with arb players and options, that would mean a payroll of around $75 million). Letting Rios and his contract depart does not make signing international players any easier, especially with the tougher signing standards under the new CBA; the way to sign more international players now is via trading for those slots, not in cutting veterans to save payroll dollars.

Unlike Adam Dunn, I do not think Rios is terribly overpaid, given his production in RF and in comparison to the other RFs in MLB. Letting him go would be dumping an asset that still has some value for nothing. Simply because a player is unlikable for a number of reasons, or that the fanbase has little respect for a player for valid reasons, does not mean the most prudent decision is that letting that asset walk and receiving nothing in return.
You mention his value, unfortunately other teams don't feel the same way. Unless the Sox can get a significant prospect back for him this winter, what kind of business sense does it make to pay him $4 million the rest of this season to jog around the field in meaningless games? And what sort of indication has there ever been that a team would give up one of ther better prospects for him? I don't see why acquiring a guy who will top out in AA or AAA is so important. There is a replacement. Use Rios' money on other areas.

russ99
08-09-2013, 12:35 PM
Keep in mind though that the rules have changed regarding signing young international players. There is a draft now. It is no longer a free-for-all like the old days.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have international scouts/personnel always on the search for talent. But the days where a Dodgers scout would hop from town to town and scoop up 15-20 sixteen year old kids while the rest of MLB was completely oblivious are long gone.

It's not an international draft yet, it's a hard slotting system with teams able to trade international slots.

And the Sox signed BBA's #9 ranked international player in Micker Zapata.

The real question when it comes to the amateur draft.

Will we draft players based on talent or with signability as in the past. How far will we go over slot to sign prospects? Will we be creative to maximize the players signed, like the Astros have done the last two drafts?

Fastball23
08-09-2013, 12:37 PM
The past trading deadline was a huge disappointment. I hope that we can trade Rios, Dunn, Alexei, DeAza and Lindstrom.

The Sox need to add key pieces for next season. Garcia was a great start but this teams needs a starting C, 1B, SS, 3B, LF, CF, and some major bullpen help.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:39 PM
Well the new international spending limits set by the CBA should work to our favor in that regard.

But to say the Sox have simply been "cheap" is not entirely accurate, they had their head of Latin American scouting and his scouts taking kickbacks from contracts they signed on players they knew probably weren't going to pan out in America. That's the kind of scandal that takes years to recover from, especially given in Latin America, kids are signed when they're still teenagers. Given that Wilder was in charge of Latin America from 2004-2008 (I believe), the kids he would have been scouting would have been 21-25 today... Basically should be entering the upper levels of the organization. The move to hire Marco Paddy away from Toronto and the subsequent signings the Sox have made since then are a move in the right direction, but in international scouting, much moreso than in the Draft, it takes a lot of patience to see if the fruits of that operation.


I'm really not that familiar with the new cba international spending limits and I do realize Wilder scandal set the Sox back. I hope they are working hard on this but I know it will take a lot of resources to make this work and getting a guy like Paddy is at least a start.

But as I think about this Buddy Bell was a start for the minor league turn around also.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Garcia has been playing CF in Charlotte, right? Barring an offseason trade of Rios (which would not be a surprise), a 2014 OF of De Aza in LF, Garcia in CF, and Rios in RF would not be a shock.


Yea hes been playing center but even if they put Garcia in right and shift Rios to center or left, Rios isnt keeping Garcia off the field.

DSpivack
08-09-2013, 12:43 PM
You mention his value, unfortunately other teams don't feel the same way. Unless the Sox can get a significant prospect back for him this winter, what kind of business sense does it make to pay him $4 million the rest of this season to jog around the field in meaningless games? And what sort of indication has there ever been that a team would give up one of ther better prospects for him? I don't see why acquiring a guy who will top out in AA or AAA is so important. There is a replacement. Use Rios' money on other areas.

What makes you think that? If no other team felt the same way, he would have cleared waivers. Right now, they can deal him only to Texas. Why not hold on to him and see what you can get in the offseason? What's the rush to trade him now? In the offseason, there will be many more potential trading partners. And if no one wants to pay what the White Sox want in return, I'd be fine keeping one of the better RFs in MLB in 2014.

Fastball23
08-09-2013, 12:45 PM
Question: If Rios gets badly injured today, can the Sox let Rios go to Texas or does he have to be pulled back?

dickallen15
08-09-2013, 12:47 PM
What makes you think that? If no other team felt the same way, he would have cleared waivers. Right now, they can deal him only to Texas. Why not hold on to him and see what you can get in the offseason? What's the rush to trade him now? In the offseason, there will be many more potential trading partners. And if no one wants to pay what the White Sox want in return, I'd be fine keeping one of the better RFs in MLB in 2014.

They tried to trade him before the deadline. Numerous stories said the Sox were dissappointed with the offers. One report said all they were offered was organizational filler. Now the team that claimed him needs a bat and an OF badly, yet they don't want to give up anything of significance for him.

Noneck
08-09-2013, 12:47 PM
Question: If Rios gets badly injured today, can the Sox let Rios go to Texas or does he have to be pulled back?


I believe he still has to pass a physical.

DeadMoney
08-09-2013, 12:51 PM
I think everyone is missing the boat here... $13.5 million available for the Sox can go towards getting one bad-ass scoreboard installed by next year! :bandance:

dickallen15
08-09-2013, 12:51 PM
I believe he still has to pass a physical.

If the waiver period hasn't expired, I think they could let him go, but doing so without the claimimg team's consent probably isn't worth it in the long run.

harwar
08-09-2013, 12:58 PM
I think everyone is missing the boat here... $13.5 million available for the Sox can go towards getting one bad-ass scoreboard installed by next year! :bandance:

Don't we need to get the team squared away before working on upgrading the hardware around the ballpark..

DeadMoney
08-09-2013, 12:59 PM
What makes you think that? If no other team felt the same way, he would have cleared waivers. Right now, they can deal him only to Texas. Why not hold on to him and see what you can get in the offseason? What's the rush to trade him now? In the offseason, there will be many more potential trading partners. And if no one wants to pay what the White Sox want in return, I'd be fine keeping one of the better RFs in MLB in 2014.

I just don't believe that.

How is the trade market for him going to improve from July (when teams are a bit more desperate than in the off season) to November? You go from having him available to play 1.5 seasons to only having him for only 1 year.

If the Sox would've gotten an offer filled with prospects in July, he would've been dealt. I just don't see how those offers would - or will - improve when teams have more options to consider. More guys will be 'on the block', there'll be 20 available replacements in FA (some who are cheaper, some who are better, but guys who aren't Alex Rios - who many teams, I believe, have a negative opinion of), and some teams aren't the Sox and have guys that a pushing towards the Majors who might be ready to go next year.

DeadMoney
08-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Don't we need to get the team squared away before working on upgrading the hardware around the ballpark..

I was joking. Figured teal wouldn't have been necessary for such a ridiculous comment.

Honestly though, the organization should focus on improving everything they can - always. That's how good businesses are run. There's baseball people who should be focusing on improving the baseball team. And there are stadium/fan ops people who should be focusing on improving the fan/customer experience any way they can.

Harry Potter
08-09-2013, 01:05 PM
Don't we need to get the team squared away before working on upgrading the hardware around the ballpark..

Oh it's going to be a long afternoon...

:facepalm:

:tealpolice:

TheVulture
08-09-2013, 01:28 PM
Choo is a good player. But is he significantly better than Rios? Choo is hitting .283 with 15 HR and 12 SB. Rios' respective numbers are .277, 12 and 26. Choo is a good player, but he is going to easily command over $10M a year anyway, and his numbers aren't much better than Rios.



The difference is Choo is also good for 80+ walks a season (and apparently is a magnet for pitched baseballs). Pop him in the second spot, he'd be a great pickup. Plus, he can apparently produce and play CF at the same time, though I am skeptical the switch to right really had anything to do with Rios' turn around at the plate. Probably just a coincidence. The turn around came when Rios finally abandoned his horrible approach at the plate where he bobbed his hands up and down and lifted his hands during his swing instead of coming down on the ball.

Either way, I'd argue Choo is the better player overall, plus Choo is two years younger.

SouthSideMike
08-09-2013, 01:29 PM
JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm 2h
and don't ask me what size a bread basket is because I have no idea
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm 2h
Chance that the #White Sox trade Alex Rios to the #Rangers today "smaller than a bread basket" according to a source involved in trade talks
Expand


Couple of funny tweets from Bowden. Smaller than a breadbasket, LOL.

Gotta love these MLB execs using these analysts and reporters and their Twitter accountants as negotiating tactics.

JB98
08-09-2013, 01:40 PM
I just don't believe that.

How is the trade market for him going to improve from July (when teams are a bit more desperate than in the off season) to November? You go from having him available to play 1.5 seasons to only having him for only 1 year.

If the Sox would've gotten an offer filled with prospects in July, he would've been dealt. I just don't see how those offers would - or will - improve when teams have more options to consider. More guys will be 'on the block', there'll be 20 available replacements in FA (some who are cheaper, some who are better, but guys who aren't Alex Rios - who many teams, I believe, have a negative opinion of), and some teams aren't the Sox and have guys that a pushing towards the Majors who might be ready to go next year.

Because every team in baseball is looking to improve in November. In July, you have only 10-12 teams looking to buy. In November, you have 30 teams looking to buy. Not that all 30 teams would be interested in Rios, but there might be more than two, as there were in July.

Right now, the only team the Sox can negotiate with is the Rangers. I don't think Texas is going to meet Hahn's price. Hahn doesn't have to trade him now, so he probably won't.

Mr. Jinx
08-09-2013, 01:45 PM
Because every team in baseball is looking to improve in November. In July, you have only 10-12 teams looking to buy. In November, you have 30 teams looking to buy. Not that all 30 teams would be interested in Rios, but there might be more than two, as there were in July.

Right now, the only team the Sox can negotiate with is the Rangers. I don't think Texas is going to meet Hahn's price. Hahn doesn't have to trade him now, so he probably won't.

Every team also has a larger pool of players to choose from via free agency that costs them nothing in prospects.

thomas35forever
08-09-2013, 01:48 PM
Oh it's going to be a long afternoon...

:facepalm:

:tealpolice:
When isn't it a long afternoon on this site when these stories break?

JermaineDye05
08-09-2013, 01:59 PM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2319862403/ute062vfhw12903nezb5_normal.jpeg Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN)

Alex Rios has been traded to the #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash).



https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2319862403/ute062vfhw12903nezb5_normal.jpeg Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN)

#WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) receive Leury Garcia in return for Alex Rios. #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash)