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fungo bat
08-04-2013, 12:00 PM
Sox are now 27 games under .500. They've lost 9 in a row. They're going nowhere, and everyone knows it. But where's the effort?

I was out at the Kansas City game last Friday night. Talk about a dead-as-a-doornail ball club. No enthusiasm. No hustle. They all seem to have checked out.

I know it's hard to get excited when everything seems to be going badly. But there's a prevailing attitude of indifference on the field. I can't imagine what it's like in the dugout, in the locker room or on a flight out of town.

At least some of the young guys should be fighting for a position next year. Or trying to show what they're capable of if given a chance. Guys like Ramirez and Rios are clearly just going through the motions.

Have they quit on Ventura? If so, how will that affect the decision to keep him as manager for next season?

amsteel
08-04-2013, 12:24 PM
Yes, and I can't blame them.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 12:33 PM
It's got nothing to do with Ventura.

SOXSINCE'70
08-04-2013, 12:35 PM
I quit a few months back.I can't watch this **** anymore.I've watched ****ty Sox teams in the past,but at least they hustled.They tried.This offense is barely able to keep me awake.This team sucks.I've said it before,i'll say it again.THIS TEAM SUCKS!! I feel sorry for Sale,Danks,Santiago and Quintana.At least they're trying.

Now,the trick is to get the other members of this team to do so as well.

This team is a ****ing embarrassment.I can't watch anymore.I won't.If they don't care,why should the fans care? :anon::rip::help::whiteflag::whiteflag:

SOXSINCE'70
08-04-2013, 12:36 PM
It's got nothing to do with Ventura.

Correct. It has to do with ****ty players not named Sale,Santiago,Danks or Quintana.:angry:

sunofgold
08-04-2013, 12:36 PM
I don't know if this is the case. When you aren't hitting, you aren't hitting. I don't know what else Ventura can do. Just juggle the lineup? Need some new players in the lineup. PK is done after this year. RH will try to deal the ARs. Need to find a power bat who can play one of the corners.

TomBradley72
08-04-2013, 12:39 PM
The only reason Ventura is not being held more accountable for this mess- is because his name is Robin Ventura.

Yes- its a mediocre roster- but the mental mistakes, lack of hustle, and overall lethargy- that's where the manager earns his paycheck- regardless of talent level.

WhiteSox5187
08-04-2013, 12:40 PM
The team quit on Ventura awhile ago.

Tragg
08-04-2013, 12:43 PM
He could stop making boneheaded decisions, like wasting Jones in a low leverage situations, and consistently bringing in the AAAA pitchers in high leverage situations.

SCCWS
08-04-2013, 01:03 PM
He could stop making boneheaded decisions, like wasting Jones in a low leverage situations, and consistently bringing in the AAAA pitchers in high leverage situations.


I understand your point but not sure that is true. Usually the pitching coach sets the bullpen rotation before a game not the manager. It is the pitching coach and bullpen coach who track appearances as well as the times a pitcher warms up but does not get called. That is why in some games you will hear the announcers say a certain reliever is not available that game due to rest. In addition with the increased use of stats, some decisions are made based on past performance against certain hitters

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 01:09 PM
He could stop making boneheaded decisions, like wasting Jones in a low leverage situations, and consistently bringing in the AAAA pitchers in high leverage situations.

Sure, but the guys aren't going to start hitting if he brings in the right reliever every time. The best manager in the game could run this team, and they still wouldn't be able to score runs.

Red Barchetta
08-04-2013, 04:14 PM
The on-field performance this year makes Terry Bevington look like a managerial genius in comparison! :?:

soxfanreggie
08-04-2013, 04:47 PM
The team quit on Ventura awhile ago.

It doesn't appear that the starting pitching has, but the offense stopped coming to the park a long time ago. Perhaps PK calling this team crappy was a vast understatement.

gosox41
08-04-2013, 04:55 PM
It's got nothing to do with Ventura.

Then why give up? This team may be a below average team, but are they really this bad. I haven't gone through the predictions thread that is done here, but I'm willing to bet not many people had this team 30 games under .500 for the season.

I have little reason to believe we will be much better then that at this point---ie we'd be lucky to play .500 rest of the way.


Bob

gosox41
08-04-2013, 04:56 PM
Sure, but the guys aren't going to start hitting if he brings in the right reliever every time. The best manager in the game could run this team, and they still wouldn't be able to score runs.

But could they run the bases and play smart baseball. Whether it's De Aza not tagging up or letting a pop up to the pitcher drop, these are inexcusable mistakes.


Bob

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:03 PM
It's got nothing to do with Ventura.

Whatever. You dilute the importance of the job of manager. This team doesn't have a lot of talent but they clearly don't look to be this bad. How you can just make a blanket statement absolving him of any blame is incredibly naive.

dickallen15
08-04-2013, 05:11 PM
Joe Maddon, who so many people love, they assume the guy who stands next to him is going to be a great manager, lost 101 and 96 games his first 2 years in Tampa. They probably should have fired him.

Golden Sox
08-04-2013, 05:12 PM
I don't know if this team has quit on Ventura or if it just lacks talent. Needless to say I heard Steve Stone say a couple of days ago that he thinks Texas has more interest in obtaining Dunn than what they do in obtaining Rios. Maybe he knows something that we don't. I hope Stone is right on this one.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 05:12 PM
Whatever. You dilute the importance of the job of manager. This team doesn't have a lot of talent but they clearly don't look to be this bad. How you can just make a blanket statement absolving him of any blame is incredibly naive.

I don't see how it's Ventura's fault if the team's just going through the motions. At this point, they don't have anything to play for. I get that fans equate effort with winning, but that's not how it works. This team was going to suck regardless of who was managing it. To make it sound like it's Ventura's fault is unfair.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:15 PM
The only reason Ventura is not being held more accountable for this mess- is because his name is Robin Ventura.

Yes- its a mediocre roster- but the mental mistakes, lack of hustle, and overall lethargy- that's where the manager earns his paycheck- regardless of talent level.

Why this is so hard for some to understand is a mystery.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:22 PM
I don't see how it's Ventura's fault if the team's just going through the motions. At this point, they don't have anything to play for. I get that fans equate effort with winning, but that's not how it works. This team was going to suck regardless of who was managing it. To make it sound like it's Ventura's fault is unfair.

I didn't say it was all his fault, but he is the leader of the team, a team that constantly commits the same little league errors on a daily basis. Whatever he's selling they clearly aren't buying.

eriqjaffe
08-04-2013, 05:24 PM
the offense stopped coming to the park a long time agoI'm trying to figure out when they showed up in the first place.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 05:25 PM
I didn't say it was all his fault, but he is the leader of the team, a team that constantly commits the same little league errors on a daily basis. Whatever he's selling they clearly aren't buying.

I still don't see how this is his fault. They're ****ing awful. They can't hit, and they can't field the ball. The season is well past being lost, guys are going to stop giving a ****, it's natural. There comes a point where you just can't motivate people. Also, this team was fantastic on defense last year. It's not like Ventura just stopped giving a **** about it, unless you're of the belief that somewhere between last season and this one, Robin just gave up on wanting to be a manager, which really doesn't make any sense.

SouthSideMike
08-04-2013, 05:26 PM
Guys not hitting is not something you can blame on Ventura. However, the sheer incompetence displayed by the players in other aspects of the game (horrible baserunning, botching routine defensive plays, lack of hustle, poor awareness in critical situations) should at least somewhat fall on the manager's head.

A few mistakes here and there? Fine. But not this level of ineptitude.

If people were going to give him credit for the good defensive play last year, then it seems just a little hypocritical to absolve him of blame for the poor play this year.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:29 PM
I still don't see how this is his fault. They're ****ing awful. They can't hit, and they can't field the ball. The season is well past being lost, guys are going to stop giving a ****, it's natural. There comes a point where you just can't motivate people. Also, this team was fantastic on defense last year. It's not like Ventura just stopped giving a **** about it, unless you're of the belief that somewhere between last season and this one, Robin just gave up on wanting to be a manager, which really doesn't make any sense.

LOL, you just made my point . The point where the manager cannot motivate is the point where he has lost the clubhouse and usually gets fired. Isn't motivation a huge part of the job? It's not just that though , some of his decisions and handling of personnel strike many as amateurish and he looks over his head. But like I said there is only one opinion that counts and it will be interesting to see what happens.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 05:32 PM
LOL, you just made my point . The point where the manager cannot motivate is the point where he has lost the clubhouse and usually gets fired. Isn't motivation a huge part of the job?

To what end? What is there to motivate? These guys suck, it's a widely held belief that most of the guys in the lineup need to go. This team is bad regardless of whether they're motivated or not. I think there needs to be some kind of talent on the roster before we can start making claims about Ventura's ability to motivate a team.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:40 PM
To what end? What is there to motivate? These guys suck, it's a widely held belief that most of the guys in the lineup need to go. This team is bad regardless of whether they're motivated or not. I think there needs to be some kind of talent on the roster before we can start making claims about Ventura's ability to motivate a team.

Yeah, but that's the thing, this was, until a few days ago, pretty much the same team as last year. If you are going to give Ventura credit for a decent job last year you must also be willing to give him some blame for this mess. Your blind defense of him makes no sense. Otherwise the job means nothing .

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 05:47 PM
Yeah, but that's the thing, this was, until a few days ago, pretty much the same team as last year. If you are going to give Ventura credit for a decent job last year you must also be willing to give him some blame for this mess. Your blind defense of him makes no sense. Otherwise the job means nothing .

This is a load of bull****, and is insulting.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:54 PM
This is a load of bull****, and is insulting.

Really, what exactly isn't true ? It's everyone else's fault except Ventura. That seems to be your message. I say that is utter nonsense.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 06:00 PM
Really, what exactly isn't true ? It's everyone else's fault except Ventura. That seems to be your message. I say that is utter nonsense.

Don't put words into my mouth.

fisk4ever
08-04-2013, 06:06 PM
The lack of effort is what burns me. Professional players should not need motivating. Where's the pride, the competitive spirit...even if it's only challenging yourself to improve?

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 06:11 PM
The lack of effort is what burns me. Professional players should not need motivating. Where's the pride, the competitive spirit...even if it's only challenging yourself to improve?
They kind of touched on it on the postgame show with Melton and Frank. Once the losing starts it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If there is no kick in the pants from teammates or wherever the losing mindset sets in and never leaves. Baseball is such a mental game.

SCCWS
08-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Don't put words into my mouth.

Hahn should know if Ventura is the wrong person. If he has doubts, I am sure Konerko can also provide input as to how Robin is doing. But if JR was the one who chose Robin and he is satisfied, then he will be back. I don't think he will return since he may be dying a slow death with this mess.

TaylorStSox
08-04-2013, 06:16 PM
The stupid plays and bad defense are really only coming from a few players who happen to just be dumb ball players. The issue is that they're doing other things well and they're the best players he has available. For example, De Aza really is one of the dumbest players I've seen and an awful defender. He's also one of the few guys hitting. What's Ventura going to do? He can yank him, but then you have to play Danks, who isn't exactly bright, and can't hit.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2013, 07:19 PM
The stupid plays and bad defense are really only coming from a few players who happen to just be dumb ball players. The issue is that they're doing other things well and they're the best players he has available. For example, De Aza really is one of the dumbest players I've seen and an awful defender. He's also one of the few guys hitting. What's Ventura going to do? He can yank him, but then you have to play Danks, who isn't exactly bright, and can't hit.

This is a really good point. Alexei is 2nd in all of baseball with 18 errors, only trailing Pedro Alvarez's 20, and Alexei has always been considered a headcase by many around here. Gillaspie has 8 of them, and nobody's ever called him a great defender, Dunn has 7, but he's always been a poor defender, too. De Aza has 6, but he shouldn't be an everyday player anyway. Beckham's really the only anomaly on the list with 7 errors. Nobody else on the team has more than 4 errors on the year.